He tossed out insults at the slightest pushback Part 2

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=344998.0;all

Thanks for the Father's Day wishes!


UBPDHelp,

Can we take a minute and go over "big picture"?


1.  Job:  When do you start?  When would you expect first paycheck?  Where will that be deposited?  When he asks/demands..whatever, what will you say?

Already, purposefully vague (paranoia creeping in).  EOM, a rarely used joint account. Debating about switching entirely to my individual or doing a split. Will check with L.

He’s already said he wants to quit his job (nothing new), wants me to pay for everything, which I can’t thanks to him always wanting bigger and better. Looking at taking a lower paying job (that I’ve helped him apply to before (gov’t so ton of paperwork and I now know this was wrong, but at the time felt in best interest to help keep breadwinner employed) but he always does the “I’ll never get it” and backs out) and just all around disagreeable re: work. Doing 50%, won’t actually go in, spends 3/4 day watching movies or on Facebook.

So, at the point I can really start contributing again and he can go back, he decides to slough off. I’ve always worked and made a pretty nice supplement AND DONE EVERY LAST THING IN THE HOUSE. He’s still not picking up after himself (nor am I mostly, I do need clean dishes) and I feel like he’s trying to push me to break. It will be out the door, though.

I also need to speak to L about leaving the house and my rights if I do.  The kids and I need some peace at this point and we won’t even get a few hours. Our second kid virtually never leaves their room...confession, doesn’t want to run into dad and hear him.

2.  Divorce/Lawyer:  Where are you on the search?  (again..not saying you should divorce.  I am saying you should have a lawyer picked and have had a couple conversations with that L to answer questions.  What questions do you have about "process"?

I have two in mind, on recall with one. Both come up in high-conflict divorce, and both have been practicing 20+ years. One male, one female. Idk if it matters or if I’d feel more comfortable. I also don’t know that just because you say HC, you could ever understand what I’m dealing with. So concern to have the right person AND afraid I won’t know. I mean look at my people skills, or lack thereof!

3.  Therapy/local support:  Have you found any local resources?

There are a couple local. Initially I think I should have a session or two with the kids and then we can all break off to individual.  My middle two are pretty sensitive and have shared more about the impact of his behavior on them. My youngest is fairly unaware, but I’m guessing not as much as I suspect. And, I’m noticing some withdrawal behavior which is concerning me. My oldest is tough, exhibits a few moments of N, but still is very empathetic so suspect some snapping at tension. Oldest will be moving out soon and I think the separation will do wonders.  Will offer help if they want it.

Clarity for you and others:  While it's hard to properly apportion "credit", it is fair to say that I would have had "much less" success in my relationship(s) without a P in my corner.  

My natural tendency is to avoid empathy and "be thoughtful", trusting that peoples feelings will come along.  I am somewhat better now at being deliberate about caring for others feelings (or expressing that I care).

You have so much on your plate...keep up the good work.  You can do this!

Best,

FF

Thanks FF.  I tend to be over caring. I feel like I have been blessed with so much so if I can help, I try to.  But, most people don’t take advantage and are appreciative.  And as noted before with notwendy, boundaries for less personal relationships are more easily enforced.

It took me a damn long time to see I was the only healthy operator in the relationship and, honestly, maybe haven’t truly been BUT I could have changed, where he cannot. I was responding the only way I knew how.

Anyway, thank you for you help and sharing.

I’ll put my plans out for input soon.  

Enjoy your day...I hope it’s sunny and warm where you are!

[UBPDHelp]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=344998.0;all

Thanks for the Father's Day wishes!


UBPDHelp,

Can we take a minute and go over "big picture"?


1.  Job:  When do you start?  When would you expect first paycheck?  Where will that be deposited?  When he asks/demands..whatever, what will you say?

Already, purposefully vague (paranoia creeping in).  EOM, a rarely used joint account. Debating about switching entirely to my individual or doing a split. Will check with L.

He’s already said he wants to quit his job (nothing new), wants me to pay for everything, which I can’t thanks to him always wanting bigger and better. Looking at taking a lower paying job (that I’ve helped him apply to before (gov’t so ton of paperwork and I now know this was wrong, but at the time felt in best interest to help keep breadwinner employed) but he always does the “I’ll never get it” and backs out) and just all around disagreeable re: work. Doing 50%, won’t actually go in, spends 3/4 day watching movies or on Facebook.

So, at the point I can really start contributing again and he can go back, he decides to slough off. I’ve always worked and made a pretty nice supplement AND DONE EVERY LAST THING IN THE HOUSE. He’s still not picking up after himself (nor am I mostly, I do need clean dishes) and I feel like he’s trying to push me to break. It will be out the door, though.

I also need to speak to L about leaving the house and my rights if I do.  The kids and I need some peace at this point and we won’t even get a few hours. Our second kid virtually never leaves their room...confession, doesn’t want to run into dad and hear him.

2.  Divorce/Lawyer:  Where are you on the search?  (again..not saying you should divorce.  I am saying you should have a lawyer picked and have had a couple conversations with that L to answer questions.  What questions do you have about "process"?

I have two in mind, on recall with one. Both come up in high-conflict divorce, and both have been practicing 20+ years. One male, one female. Idk if it matters or if I’d feel more comfortable. I also don’t know that just because you say HC, you could ever understand what I’m dealing with. So concern to have the right person AND afraid I won’t know. I mean look at my people skills, or lack thereof!

3.  Therapy/local support:  Have you found any local resources?

There are a couple local. Initially I think I should have a session or two with the kids and then we can all break off to individual.  My middle two are pretty sensitive and have shared more about the impact of his behavior on them. My youngest is fairly unaware, but I’m guessing not as much as I suspect. And, I’m noticing some withdrawal behavior which is concerning me. My oldest is tough, exhibits a few moments of N, but still is very empathetic so suspect some snapping at tension. Oldest will be moving out soon and I think the separation will do wonders.  Will offer help if they want it.

Clarity for you and others:  While it's hard to properly apportion "credit", it is fair to say that I would have had "much less" success in my relationship(s) without a P in my corner.  

My natural tendency is to avoid empathy and "be thoughtful", trusting that peoples feelings will come along.  I am somewhat better now at being deliberate about caring for others feelings (or expressing that I care).

You have so much on your plate...keep up the good work.  You can do this!

Best,

FF

Thanks FF.  I tend to be over caring. I feel like I have been blessed with so much so if I can help, I try to.  But, most people don’t take advantage and are appreciative.  And as noted before with notwendy, boundaries for less personal relationships are more easily enforced.

It took me a damn long time to see I was the only healthy operator in the relationship and, honestly, maybe haven’t truly been BUT I could have changed, where he cannot. I was responding the only way I knew how.

Anyway, thank you for you help and sharing.

I’ll put my plans out for input soon.  

Enjoy your day...I hope it’s sunny and warm where you are!

[formflier]

Hey...it's me.  Big breath.  One of the reasons that you are so EXHAUSTED is the MASSIVE amount of overthinking, over analyzing...about each decision.

Axioms:  Is your hubby going to be happy (over the long term) with any decision you make? 

Serious answer please.

Therefore, how much should you consider him (relative to you and your kids) when making a decision?

Again...critical to get this point and "sit with the impact for a while".


Listen:  Do YOU want to discuss your job, deposit and finances with your hubby?  If so..do it on your terms.

I would suggest that you NOT discuss your job further, except at preplanned weekly meetings that you offer (he may or may not attend).

Do NOT have any of the money you earn deposited in a joint account.  Those days of your relationship are past.  They may come back or they may not, it really depends. 

Your responsibility is to offer a pathway back and see if he walks that pathway...do not help him in the slightest.

Also...focus on your job, let him sort out his.  Only discuss it at your weekly meeting and then only as it relates to the overall family.  If you sort out his job for him, why would he put any energy into it?

It took me a damn long time to see I was the only healthy operator in the relationship and, honestly, maybe haven’t truly been BUT I could have changed, where he cannot. I was responding the only way I knew how.
 

If he can't change...why on earth are you still there?

And...who gets credit for the changes he has made?

Seriously...

Did he know other ways to respond and purposefully and thoughtfully chose one just to tick you off?

Not trying to be mean here, but you are FAST approaching critical points where you will be setting PRECEDENT.

It is critical you are thinking clearly.

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Putting your earnings in a joint account seems like you might be handing over 50% of your income to him.

Leaving the house also puts you in a vulnerable position.

Definitely get legal advice before doing either of the above.

I tend to be over caring.

Yes you've been "over caring" about him. But what about the impact of his behavior on your four children? And you?

Another way of looking at the situation is that you've been elevating the importance of one individual and underserving the needs of five, putting more energy into 17% of the family, while paying less attention to 83%.

[formflier]

underserving the needs of five, putting more energy into 17% of the family, while paying less attention to 83%.

This...this is a critical point.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest there was a "hope" that if "just a little bit more" was done that he "would be better" or "be fixed" or "be happy"?  (am I on the right track?)

Critical point on the money.  I'm hoping to get agreement that you will NOT co-mingle your earnings/funds with joint funds or his funds until a lawyer has explained the wisdom of actually doing that (and you agree with that wisdom).

I'm concerned that it "seemed like" you were going to ask the L if you could "with hold" your funds from going into joint and that until such time as you got an OK from the L that your "default" would be to share/give your hubby control.

 

Thoughts?

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Hey...it's me.  Big breath.  One of the reasons that you are so EXHAUSTED is the MASSIVE amount of overthinking, over analyzing...about each decision.

Years of being questioned and berated by my decisions and I’ve lost confidence in making them. Even when he would throw me a bone (often no getting around it), it would come with some kind of “but”.

Axioms:  Is your hubby going to be happy (over the long term) with any decision you make? 

Not that he would admit. And if he was happy HE WOULD WITHOUT A DOUBT FIND A WAY TO TAKE CREDIT FOR WHATEVER PART WAS DEEMED GOOD.  

But, to your point, no, he won’t.

Serious answer please.

Simply, no.

Therefore, how much should you consider him (relative to you and your kids) when making a decision?

Pretty much, none.

Again...critical to get this point and "sit with the impact for a while".

I will, BUT it would be helpful to have some answers to what you, et al, see.  I don’t have to agree or heed, but it will help me see how far off my internal compass is. I believe it’s getting closer to due north, but, hey, what do I know?  

Every once in a while I question if I’m just so difficult/annoying that he simply can’t deal with me. I know that’s not it, but I do question (see how obtuse and frustrating I am here?).  But, if that were the case, I actually feel like I’m doing him a favor to leave.

Listen:  Do YOU want to discuss your job, deposit and finances with your hubby?  If so..do it on your terms.

I would suggest that you NOT discuss your job further, except at preplanned weekly meetings that you offer (he may or may not attend).

This is good idea. I will leave and live in a hotel with the kids before his disrupts my job. It’s my lifeline right now to get out. And, I think he sees that AND may make him more disruptive or, maybe, easier for him to go.  

Do NOT have any of the money you earn deposited in a joint account.  Those days of your relationship are past.  They may come back or they may not, it really depends. 

I agree.  BUT, his still goes in joint (main one for everyday bills), so didn’t know if I should be doing less used, but still joint.

LMK if that changes anything. Also, he’s not covering all the bills anymore, he doesn’t discuss when he’ll have money, but let’s me deposit when it comes. So, I may need to use mine in short term, but I assume making a record of when I supplement is better than just combining.  

Your responsibility is to offer a pathway back and see if he walks that pathway...do not help him in the slightest.

Not at all.  I’ve laid a 100 mile bed of hot coals and broken glass. I dream of the peace of not dealing with him. Worry where his focus will go, hopefully stay on me from afar.

Also...focus on your job, let him sort out his.  Only discuss it at your weekly meeting and then only as it relates to the overall family.  If you sort out his job for him, why would he put any energy into it?

Agree. He makes comments frequently but I don’t help anymore.

If he can't change...why on earth are you still there?

Ding, ding. I’ve only really come to realize/understand that he won’t. There were many years of mostly good and then a lot of years of increased behavior, but still knowing there had been good so thought it could go back. This past year has been beyond compare. A lot of confusion.

But, I can see now what I’ve been told a thousand times here. It’s finally sinking in. Knowing this has made the unthinkable/un-understandable into some kind of twisted understanding.

And, I simply f’ing (sorry, sometimes just need it) finally “poof” realized it could be MY CHOICE!

And...who gets credit for the changes he has made?

Seriously...

Did he know other ways to respond and purposefully and thoughtfully chose one just to tick you off?

Not trying to be mean here, but you are FAST approaching critical points where you will be setting PRECEDENT.

It is critical you are thinking clearly.

Best,

FF

Help me here...tomorrow or the next day. I’m not good here. Help me!  Not sure if I’m getting your point.

[UBPDHelp]

Putting your earnings in a joint account seems like you might be handing over 50% of your income to him.

Leaving the house also puts you in a vulnerable position.

Definitely get legal advice before doing either of the above.

Yes you've been "over caring" about him. But what about the impact of his behavior on your four children? And you?

Thanks Cat. I’ve been on a long journey with you all. It’s taken me to some rough places. Denial, realization, fear.

When my older kids finally felt that I was seriously considering leaving, they unleashed their true feelings.

I failed them. So badly.  But, I only have to find a path forward and try to heal them as best I can (with help).

They did not deserve what I let happen.

Another way of looking at the situation is that you've been elevating the importance of one individual and underserving the needs of five, putting more energy into 17% of the family, while paying less attention to 83%.

100%. Total failure to myself, but more importantly to my kiddos.

[formflier]

Help me here...tomorrow or the next day. I’m not good here. Help me!  Not sure if I’m getting your point.

If you are going to hand him responsibility/blame/credit for bad behavior, who should get responsibility/blame/credit for good or improved or less bad behavior?

Slow down and think about the reasons this is important...if it's still a bit hard to grasp, I swear I'll stop answering with questions and lay it out.

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

This...this is a critical point.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest there was a "hope" that if "just a little bit more" was done that he "would be better" or "be fixed" or "be happy"?  (am I on the right track?)

Yes, for a long time. I finally know better.

Moments I see him struggle, I then struggle with feeling sorry for him. I have to remind myself he’s never going to change.

Critical point on the money.  I'm hoping to get agreement that you will NOT co-mingle your earnings/funds with joint funds or his funds until a lawyer has explained the wisdom of actually doing that (and you agree with that wisdom).

I'm concerned that it "seemed like" you were going to ask the L if you could "with hold" your funds from going into joint and that until such time as you got an OK from the L that your "default" would be to share/give your hubby control.

 

Thoughts?

FF

Yes, I set up direct deposit to joint. I started thinking about putting in my own account. I will switch it with HR, confirm with L.  Think that’s an easier fix than separating after co-mingling.

Ugh.

[UBPDHelp]

If you are going to hand him responsibility/blame/credit for bad behavior, who should get responsibility/blame/credit for good or improved or less bad behavior?

Yes, I do give him credit. I also let him take a lot of credit.

FF, I swear I am reasonable and I’m not concerned with getting credit, but he literally will now state everything is his good idea. It just never stops. Ever. And he picks a fight at every turn.

For instance — happy Father’s Day. Would you prefer fish or chicken today? 

H — who ever has chicken as their meal?

And, then 5 minutes about how we don’t eat chicken (not true) and why would I even suggest it.  Scandalous. 

I didn’t engage in the spiral and just said “fish it is!” and left. But I just can’t understand why that can’t be a civil conversation. I mean I get it now, but so frustrating.

Slow down and think about the reasons this is important...if it's still a bit hard to grasp, I swear I'll stop answering with questions and lay it out.

Best,

FF

I guess I get it, just need reassurance that I do understand.

[formflier]

 Would you prefer fish or chicken today?  

H — who ever has chicken as their meal?

 

Let's take this issue and solve it...for good.  Take it off the table...one way or another.

You up for that?

Here is my take.  It's overly kind/thoughtful of you to be so considerate of a person who behaves so poorly back to you.

Big picture:  He has been trained that this is ok.  Your responsibility is to untrain him. (or at a minimum stop training him for negative behaviors)

Going forward, stop trying to please him with food...stop trying to in any way whatsoever affect his feelings positively or negatively with food.

Prep food for the family, give him the same heads up  you would give others about when food is ready and DO NOT engage in conversations about food with him...with one caveat.

You are willing to listen to an apology for the way he treats his cook (you).  If it seems sincere, you are willing to watch carefully to see if he treats his cook differently in the future.

That's it..

Let him start wearing his underwear on the outside and declare himself the super hero of chicken cook fixers...let him start wearing a cape and leap buildings at a single bound...let him sulk in his room...let him loose 20 lbs...

Let him believe it's his idea that you stopped being deferential to him.

You exit the food drama...it's in your power.

Best,

FF

(yes..there is part of the post I wrote in such a way that UBPDhelp should say.."hey..wait a minute..", I'll give bonus points if she finds it and explains her consternation)

[UBPDHelp]

Let's take this issue and solve it...for good.  Take it off the table...one way or another.

You up for that?

Here is my take.  It's overly kind/thoughtful of you to be so considerate of a person who behaves so poorly back to you.

Big picture:  He has been trained that this is ok.  Your responsibility is to untrain him. (or at a minimum stop training him for negative behaviors)

Going forward, stop trying to please him with food...stop trying to in any way whatsoever affect his feelings positively or negatively with food.

Prep food for the family, give him the same heads up  you would give others about when food is ready and DO NOT engage in conversations about food with him...with one caveat.

You are willing to listen to an apology for the way he treats his cook (you).  If it seems sincere, you are willing to watch carefully to see if he treats his cook differently in the future.

That's it..

Let him start wearing his underwear on the outside and declare himself the super hero of chicken cook fixers...let him start wearing a cape and leap buildings at a single bound...let him sulk in his room...let him loose 20 lbs...

Let him believe it's his idea that you stopped being deferential to him.

You exit the food drama...it's in your power.

Best,

FF

(yes..there is part of the post I wrote in such a way that UBPDhelp should say.."hey..wait a minute..", I'll give bonus points if she finds it and explains her consternation)

I’ve got a few...idk which you are referring to or why.  I’ll come back to it later.

Other than it being Father’s Day I have removed any input or discussion around food. My life got simpler. It’s annoying because I grew up with choices. Ultimately it was fish or chicken, but whatever wasn’t picked today would become tomorrow. It just feels like it shouldn’t be a big deal.

BUT, I have gotten tired of his input on 500 things, stated I’m doing this or that and he can choose to come or not.

My point is that it’s food today, but it’s why I’m wearing that shirt or my hair up or why this kid is taking this class. Often it’s not even that he’s given choices, he just lets you know he disagrees. About everything.

Doesn’t matter, I’m not giving him input unless it is mandatory and food was only because it was Fathers Day.  Done.

Tell me more about him thinking it was his idea...

Ultimately, I really no longer care what he does. Much to all your dismay, I’ve spent a lot of time on what he’s doing. And done a terrible job communicating why. Initially I may have thought I could change him back.  After, because I didn’t know whose screw was loose — mine or his. Was I wrong to be upset by behavior?  Validation seeking for my feelings, acceptance of my part.

Dr. Ramani along with all of you reminds me it can be my choice. And that’s what it is. Not trying to get him to change his mind or behavior...me deciding what my choice is. Sad, but true.

Thanks FF, I’ll ponder on my bristling...

[UBPDHelp]

Good morning all,

So, I have almost entirely decided that the only way forward is to divorce. I can’t actually think of any way to not.  I don’t think I’m capable of managing the relationship any longer. Pandemic isn’t making it worse, it just has given me an uninterrupted view where I can’t make excuses or forget. Maybe because there are no more up times.

In true form, he hated his FD gifts. They were perfect for him and I wonder if he knew his favorite child picked out the most perfect one, if he would change his tune. Who knows?  Who cares?  It was predictably predictable.

So, I’m getting legal advice on the leaving board but can see some behavior simmering and could use some thoughts on current options.

Oldest is looking for window of low pandemic risk to head back to apartment, fully preparing for almost inevitable second wave. Working on how to secure food, stay safe with roommates who may or may not have same risk threshold. I’d rather they didn’t go, but adult and safety precautions are understood so one less person to be in this situation. They can’t stand being trapped at home. H announces last night that covid is up ticking everywhere and oldest and I both excused ourselves.  He is irrationally afraid — accepting that he DOES feel this way. I’ve been going out very safely trying to get him more comfortable but he’s really just trying to keep us all home. True most of us don’t have to, but let’s be honest, what will we be living with if we have now exposed him to covid?

In addition he’s upping some passive aggressive behaviors. He doesn’t do a good job of picking up after himself. Narcissist.  He declined to eat with us last night (he did have lunch) but then sat at the table in the family room (where he, I and oldest were going to watch a recurring show together — we do every Sunday night) and ate what I had made. By himself. Annoying, okay.  But, he then gets up and leaves the plate, fork and glass.  Still sitting here this morning. I guarantee if I don’t pick it up, it will be there in a week.

True, this isn’t new behavior really, but I’m now working twice as much as he is so it’s just an illustration of how N he is. I guess I know I need to pick up, it’s just confirmation of his behavior.

He’s done some things around the house and left them all half finished for a week or more — with messes we have to skirt around. And then watches movies and is on Facebook constantly.

I prefer to have a couple of months on my job, get my credit back in order (super close, been working on this for a few months). I don’t want to leave until I’m ready but the atmosphere in the house is untenable at best.

The kids are feeling trapped. I take them when I go out but it’s limited. He’s working himself up all the time. He jumps to attention at the slightest issue.

I don’t really have anywhere to go yet. I don’t think I can get a place with new job and blips on credit. I could pay a sizable deposit, but ultimately I’d like to buy a small place so preference would be to stay put for a while but that’s going to require keeping his behavior in check.

Any suggestions to simply manage?  Just agree and keep doing everything?

[formflier]

Any suggestions to simply manage? 

Yes...stop managing "the relationship".  Be deliberate about boundaries and "manage yourself".  Let him do him (he obviously can use the practice..right?)


I'm well aware of the internal dialogue that goes something like this "But if I don't (fill in what you manage) then (insert feared consequence)."

The question:  You have exhausted yourself managing the relationship.  It would be one thing if you were "happy" with the result.  If you are unhappy with the results of your efforts that resulted in exhaustion...stop exhausting yourself.

Just stop.

Please...please NEVER EVER EVER EVER pickup that plate that he left.  If you can let him handle his plate, perhaps you can let him manage his (fill in blanks of the list of other things)


Resist dichotomous thinking.  perfect/divorce.  The world isn't that neat and simple.

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

Please...please NEVER EVER EVER EVER pickup that plate that he left.  If you can let him handle his plate, perhaps you can let him manage his (fill in blanks of the list of other things)

I would go one further... the next time you and H are in the same room say "hey when are you going to clean up the dishes you left on the table?"

yes he will snap back...

two months ago the general advice was to not provoke him while he was so volatile and you were so raw and uncertain.       things have changed.      how do you feel about some carefully thought out boundary defense?

Your value = a clean and organized kitchen with shared recognition of work and effort.

Your boundary =   ________fill in the blank_____________    

I will do XYZ in the kitchen when my work and effort is respected.
I will not do XYZ in the kitchen when my work and effort is disrespected.
I will do ABC in the kitchen when my work and effort is disrespected.

upstream you mentioned this and it may have gotten lost in the other conversations.

When my older kids finally felt that I was seriously considering leaving, they unleashed their true feelings.

I failed them. So badly.  But, I only have to find a path forward and try to heal them as best I can (with help).

They did not deserve what I let happen.

100%. Total failure to myself, but more importantly to my kiddos.

that has to be painful.    can you say more about what is going on here?    protecting the kids privacy of course...

'ducks

[UBPDHelp]

Yes...stop managing "the relationship".  Be deliberate about boundaries and "manage yourself".  Let him do him (he obviously can use the practice..right?)

Sorry FF, I didn’t mean so much about managing.  I guess now that it all seems fruitless, is this really the time to implement a boundary that will likely cause a lot of disordered behavior?

I would like to never pick it up...and will certainly do so.  Just trying to keep house peaceful.  He won’t go to work, just sits on top of everyone barking at us and is all in all miserable and making everyone else miserable. Maybe it’s time for me to take the kids and go...will see what L says.

Of note, at the beginning of pandemic he wasn’t getting changed, etc.  I did his laundry and left it for him (really just undies and a shirt or two).  We weren’t speaking so I just put it where he was when he was sleeping. He didn’t touch it. There was discussion with you, me and BabyDucks that he bristles at caretaking/“momming” and yet still expects certain things.

I stopped doing his laundry, I don’t discuss food (except yesterday for Father’s Day) and I’ve stopped “asking his permission”.  Mostly I wasn’t really asking his permission, but presenting what I wanted and letting him share his input.  Terrible way to do it, but now I see it, I’ve stopped.

I leave when he puts on a raunchy movie he knows I don’t want to watch. He knows because he’s asked before. He tends to do this when I haven’t acquiesced to a request.

I leave when he tells needless disgusting stories and have advised my kids how to excuse themselves. Is it appropriate to discuss a friend who named their kid something that reminds him of Hitler and I acknowledge his feeling and note I understand his dislike however I don’t make that connection. He then goes on to scream at me and our oldest that the Nazis had their German shepherds rape women in the concentration camps?  Because Fred named his son X?  

So, yes, I leave a lot.

I'm well aware of the internal dialogue that goes something like this "But if I don't (fill in what you manage) then (insert feared consequence)."

The question:  You have exhausted yourself managing the relationship.  It would be one thing if you were "happy" with the result.  If you are unhappy with the results of your efforts that resulted in exhaustion...stop exhausting yourself.

Entirely. Did it for years. Have been trying.

Now I just want to buy time until one of us leaves.

Just stop.

Okay  

Please...please NEVER EVER EVER EVER pickup that plate that he left.  If you can let him handle his plate, perhaps you can let him manage his (fill in blanks of the list of other things)

Okay!  Gonna really enjoy that smell.

Resist dichotomous thinking.  perfect/divorce.  The world isn't that neat and simple.

Best,

FF

Oh dear, now you think I’m b&w thinking. Just hastily lazy.

I don’t think anything is all good or all bad. I don’t think divorce means a great life. My kids will suffer. But I think they’re suffering worse now.

It will be a financially difficult time, maybe forever. That is daunting. But, I’m okay with a small place that needs lots of love where I can come and go without fear of constant moods. Still better.

In truth, part of my thinking may be too gray and hence I’ve stayed waffling without making a decision.

That said, I hear you and I get your warning.

Thanks FF.

[babyducks]

 I guess now that it all seems fruitless, is this really the time to implement a boundary that will likely cause a lot of disordered behavior?

cross posted.   Sorry.    

Of course it's up to you.    but I am going to say yes... it is time to implement a boundary.    more for your sake than for the sake of the relationship.     

sooner or later you will need to establish another boundary with him... there is a lot of conflict on the horizon.    the more comfortable you are with boundaries.   identifying them.    holding them.     figuring out which ones are the most important the better for you.

it may not be the one about the dishes you pick... it may be something else but establishing and holding boundaries are displaying that you won't be pushed into actions or positions you don't value.

make sense?

[UBPDHelp]

I would go one further... the next time you and H are in the same room say "hey when are you going to clean up the dishes you left on the table?"

yes he will snap back...

I can try. I’ve done less directed — announce to family that whoever did X needs to clean it up. I know it’s him but thought maybe it saved direct shaming. Idk.

two months ago the general advice was to not provoke him while he was so volatile and you were so raw and uncertain.       things have changed.      how do you feel about some carefully thought out boundary defense?

Your value = a clean and organized kitchen with shared recognition of work and effort.

Your boundary =   ________fill in the blank_____________    

I will do XYZ in the kitchen when my work and effort is respected.
I will not do XYZ in the kitchen when my work and effort is disrespected.
I will do ABC in the kitchen when my work and effort is disrespected.

upstream you mentioned this and it may have gotten lost in the other conversations.

Yes. Clearly this is a beaten up skill. Years ago, I told him that unless he put his dirty clothes in the hamper, I wouldn’t wash them. He was/has been primary breadwinner, so I took on most (all) household. He asked why it made a difference if it was on the floor. I told him it was respect. He did it for a long time after, but that’s eroded. I still only did what was in hamper. Now I don’t do that.

The thing is, wouldn’t you agree, someone who cares about someone else isn’t looking to take advantage of them. 

Don’t mommy me, where’s my laundry?  Yep, that’s done.

that has to be painful.    can you say more about what is going on here?    protecting the kids privacy of course...

'ducks

Yes.  They stayed mostly quiet but we’re all having a hard time with him now and they can see I’m serious.

My oldest told me dad said divorced families can still go on vacation together. I laughed for a full five minutes. Sure, that may be true in healthy divorced relationships. We all know that isn’t this.

Oldest plays peacemaker and is a lot like the good parts, which is scary and confusing for oldest. I’ve reassured, but also know they need some space.

Middle is quiet and reserved and has expressed much is from being judged so harshly and high expectations. I’m social, but also shy so I just felt kid two was more like me. I think that’s some true, but also plays into being manipulated, I think.

The older two didn’t have constant dysregulaton, but episodes. We moved past quickly (H and I) but kids were more attune. I was a fool.

My third downright despises him. At a tween age so some is dramatic, but much is true. Kid three has lived with many more episodes and this last year has been horrendous. He buys things and dangles things in front of kid three, which is confusing. Kid three is on to him in a big way.

Kid four is mostly clueless. Dad has snapped a few times and I see kid four get nervous. I try to support but that makes H angry.

Really, I might keep putting up with it if it weren’t for the kids. It’s over now and I have to get them on a better path.

Oldest weren’t allowed to date til 16, I was in agreement. But dad made any date requests after third degrees. I even accepted as over protective and gently tried to guide. When each went off to college, there were demands of full names and searching. Nixed one over religion based on last name (are you kidding me on every level) and his detective work was wrong anyway.  Created weird dynamic for kid waiting for dad that the relationship got awkward and dissolved. Repeat over a few times. Kid two was casually seeing someone. Came back to school and they broke up. Kid two was upset and messaged me and we talked. A lot on the dynamic. When dad found out, because she used three words that he likened to something he thinks I said thirty years ago, he started rage texting kid two. Kid two was a basket case. That was weeks before pandemic. Kid twos friends have asked to use our bathroom, but kid two won’t let them if dad is around (they’ve been over dozens of times when he’s at work). 

Kids can’t take on all of this. I’ve helped with boundaries and excusing themselves. It’s temporary. But we need to get away.

I’ll try to think of other, older examples that I just didn’t think were huge deals.

How can I begin to fix this for them?

I can think therapy and ME BEING A BETTER ROLE MODEL. 

What else?

[UBPDHelp]

cross posted.   Sorry.    

Of course it's up to you.    but I am going to say yes... it is time to implement a boundary.    more for your sake than for the sake of the relationship.     

sooner or later you will need to establish another boundary with him... there is a lot of conflict on the horizon.    the more comfortable you are with boundaries.   identifying them.    holding them.     figuring out which ones are the most important the better for you.

it may not be the one about the dishes you pick... it may be something else but establishing and holding boundaries are displaying that you won't be pushed into actions or positions you don't value.

make sense?

Yes, thank you.

Agree...helpful to have shared vision because I simply don’t trust myself.

Yes, yes, yes.  Thank you !

[formflier]

Of course it's up to you.    but I am going to say yes... it is time to implement a boundary.    more for your sake than for the sake of the relationship.     

sooner or later you will need to establish another boundary with him... there is a lot of conflict on the horizon.    the more comfortable you are with boundaries.   identifying them.    holding them.     figuring out which ones are the most important the better for you.
 

There are a lot of discussions whirling around in this thread...that's ok. 

There is a big difference in doing things to "make a house peaceful" and "provoking rage" and "doing something healthy, and if someone pitches a fit...so be it."

It was hard for me when I was "in it" and conflict was swirling around to sort it out. 

So while I provide a resounding vote for leave the dishes AND a resounding vote for asking him directly (none of this announce to the family stuff)...asking him directly to clean it up.

Then...let life happen.

It's equally important to be ready to ignore an adult temper tantrum as it is to be ready to say "thank you...I appreciate that.  Hey...I'm making coffee...would you like some."

Yes...even if you don't "feel" like "being nice"..it's important to be ready to do this. 

Big picture:  You are opening doors or allowing doors to stay open.  He and he alone can decide to walk through those doors.

From personal experience it can be harder to "be nice".  Especially if he "just" picks up the dish, yet doesn't apologize for other stuff or perhaps there is some attitude. 

This is where it's important for you to be the "emotional leader".  Don't needlessly fan conflict and also be ready to acknowledge your appreciation when he does things you appreciate.

You can do this.  Regardless of his actions, this can be a success for you.

That's worth repeating...it's not about him being nice or pitching a fit. 

How does that idea sit with you?

Best,

FF

[stolencrumbs]

Big picture:  You are opening doors or allowing doors to stay open.  He and he alone can decide to walk through those doors

But opening doors to what? It sounds like opening doors to rebuilding or improving the relationship, and that doesn't seem to be where UBPDHelp is at right now. I might be misreading all of this, in which case, please ignore.

One thing I see in this thread is the UBPDHelp is essentially saying that she doesn't want to make this work. I don't mean that to sound harsh, and I know I am reading my own experience into things, but that's what I see between the lines. Are there things she could do that might make things more tolerable? Sure. And probably a good idea to do those things right now, but mainly to keep some kind of peace and stability.

The thing I struggle the most with is admitting to myself that I don't love my wife in the way that I used to--that I just plain don't feel the same about her. And I spent a lot of time trying to justify why I felt the way I did, and there's plenty to point to. But the truth is that even if she changed all of that and started behaving like a drastically different person, I don't want to be married to her. It's not the relationship I want. It's not going to be. The best version of it I can imagine is not one I want. Mainly because it involves a relationship with a person I don't love in the way I think I should love a partner. I don't have children, so that makes it a bit easier. But my point is just that one thing that has gone mostly unexamined here is how UBPDHelp actually feels about her H.

My guess is that she is hearing a lot of advice on how to possibly improve things, and somewhere in the back (maybe the front) of her mind is the thought that she isn't interested in improving things. The focus on him is, in part, a focus on finding a sufficient reason for feeling like she does. I guess the thing I'd say is that you don't need that sufficient reason. You feel how you feel. And you can make decisions to act contrary to how you feel and hope those other feelings come back. Or you can make decisions based on how you feel, what you can imagine the future to be, etc. I don't think one way is better than the other. But I think it's important to actually examine that. There's some chance I could peacefully exist with my wife. I don't at all think she's a terrible person. I still love her in some way. We could have a life that could possibly be fine. But I don't want that life, and I don't want that life with her. That's a hard thing to admit and a hard thing to say. It sometimes seems easier to wait for her to fail, or to pretend I'm keeping a door open. But at some point, we have to take an honest assessment of ourselves and how we feel and what we believe and what we value and etc. And that might lead to not being very keen on leaving doors open.

Again, maybe I'm way off. 

[formflier]

I can't disagree with anything that StolenCrumbs has said and I definitely feel the same "done" vibe from UBPDHelp...it's loud and clear.

All that being said, I would hope readers and the OP can consider this possibility.  

When there is an extreme lack of boundaries the relationship is usually chaotic and people are exhausted (check...got that here)

I would resist using the term "bettering" for what we (I) and trying to teach here.  I would suggest that I'm hoping for a more accurate view of what is possible and also probable. (two different things)

Once boundaries are better established and each of the parties is more or less in "their own lane", then I think some decisions can be made about the future of the r/s (the marriage) with more accurate information.

We all have to acknowledge that it's unlikely there is an option to "end" the r/s due to family connections, kids, etc etc.

Back to the bettering thing...maybe it's about teaching the OP a "better" way and we aren't sure yet if that will result in a "better" relationship.  FF is likely getting too wrapped up in words here.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

From the Gottman Institute.  (for some reason not all the email header will copy), it's from a "marriage minute" email.

Here they call it "binary" thinking, same idea as "dichotomous".  Basic point is there is an enormous amount of nuance to all of us and why we do things.   

Good vs evil

Some of the most-loved movies tell epic tales of the battle between good and evil, in which a relatable hero (“the good guy”) fights against a despicable villain (“the bad guy”).

Often it serves the story best if these characters lack nuance. We can’t always dig into the fear or trauma history that might be driving the villain’s decision-making, for example. It wouldn’t serve the central narrative of the Star Wars franchise to include any scenes of Emperor Palpatine in individual therapy.

But when you cast yourself and your partner in the roles of hero and villain, you rob yourself and your relationship’s story of much-needed nuance and clarity. As uncomfortable as it may be, embracing ambiguity may be the way forward.

If you find yourself casting your partner as the villain, it may be due to Negative Sentiment Override (NSO). NSO prevents you from giving someone the benefit of the doubt, and even causes you to perceive otherwise objective or uncharged actions as negative.

Let’s say your partner doesn’t respond to your text with their usual promptness. What story do you create around that (“They’re ignoring me on purpose,” “They’re mad at me. I did something wrong,” or, “Their phone must be off,”)? Do you make assumptions and go with them or do you check in about that story?

When you view your partner, or anyone you love, from a binary perspective, it forces them to tip into the role of “all good” or “all bad,” when in reality, nobody is just one thing.

[Cat Familiar]

As usual, excellent material from Gottman! Thanks for sharing that, FF!

I’ll take the liberty of paraphrasing comments UBPDHelp has made more than once...please let me know if this is off the mark.

“Why should I work so hard to change my approach if it doesn’t really improve the relationship and a couple of years from now I’m still feeling the same way I do now?”

To respond to that, as so many have already—Making those changes are for you, not him. It may salvage the relationship to where it’s tolerable, and it may not.

But what it absolutely will do is strengthen you where you won’t be as impacted by unpleasant behavior and even more importantly, you will build up your self esteem so that you know exactly where you stand and this cannot be undermined by someone else.

Aren’t you worth the effort to learn new ways to respond? I think you are.

[UBPDHelp]

  Thanks all..I apologize for not having the bandwidth to reply to each.

H is dysregulating again about household stuff and it’s so difficult. Currently it is because I didn’t take out the garbage.

As you know, he hasn’t worked in 3.5 months but did get some PPP so has about 1/3 of his pay. He refused to speak to me for 8-9 days at beginning of pandemic, broke dishes, threw coffee and broke a tv.

Told me to “make sure I was taking advantage of any programs” for bills. I told him I was but the mortgage is in his name and I can’t do anything with it including pay for it. I tried to talk to him about it and he refuses to discuss. They put us in a 3 month forbearance (via email inquiry about options, not requested, they just did it).  I have phoned every couple of days but after an hour, give up. The three months is up. I have almost two months put aside and was going to take the third month from my inheritance if I had to.

Today he demanded bank account info (again). He’s always had it but can’t be bothered with it so now doesn’t remember it. There’s no money, which I told him, except the money aside for the mortgage. I am now having to tell him when he’s refused to discuss this entire time. I know he will dysregulate further.

He sent me an email stating a financial disclosure on this date and time I told him there was no money.

He also said we should:

1. Keep our money separate
2. Sell our PLEASE READty house

I said okay to both.

My thought is that I am going to give him all the login (again), tell him details about the mortgage, let him know the bills that are outstanding and give him the breakdown of how far we are behind in pay.

It’s his problem now. But, I’m talking to the L on Thursday so maybe I should wait.

I believe my job is threatening him and he’s looking to disrupt me. I want to go somewhere else but need to understand if that’s possible legally.

I’m so defeated. This is the hundredth time he’s made something my problem to figure out and refuses to provide input and then comes in and dysregulates on it.  

I can’t and I’m terrified because he’s making it legal now.  Please help.

I’ll come back to other stuff. Thank you.

[UBPDHelp]

Hi all, just an update.

I know that was very reactionary...super busy week and obviously I’m on edge so not a good combo to deal with H.

I can’t speak to attorney for a few days. H is an attorney so the message he sent me was a legal notice that he was putting me on record as saying something. I suppose it’s my word vs his, and likely a bunch of hot air, but honestly that’s almost worse.

He’s refused to discuss household bill details, which he now denies. Absolute bs. I journaled whenever he refused, contemporaneously to the times of his refusal. 

I will no longer be responsible to implement joint agreements re: finances when he is setting me up.  He wants separate accounts, he’s got it.

Anyway, after I finished working, I told him that of the three joint accounts, two had nothing (one will need funded for an upcoming recurring bill) and the third had the (almost) two mortgage payments.

I then told him the issue with the mortgage (he’s not concerned), the other bills that were coming due, etc.  He handled it a smidge better than so-so, but I feel better that I’m not managing alone because he refuses. He gets to figure it out now.

Doesn’t really change the big picture, but provides some breathing room.

Re: the stance that he never said he wouldn’t discuss — it’s a total lie — how can I protect myself from this going forward?  I documented for myself, but not sure that proves anything.

Also, he’s rewriting that he hasn’t been available for any adult responsibility the entire 3.5 months we’ve been home. I don’t let him off on these things because then it becomes truth. It’s not. Absolutely not.

[UBPDHelp]

There are a lot of discussions whirling around in this thread...that's ok.  

There is a big difference in doing things to "make a house peaceful" and "provoking rage" and "doing something healthy, and if someone pitches a fit...so be it."

It was hard for me when I was "in it" and conflict was swirling around to sort it out.  

So while I provide a resounding vote for leave the dishes AND a resounding vote for asking him directly (none of this announce to the family stuff)...asking him directly to clean it up.

Then...let life happen.

It's equally important to be ready to ignore an adult temper tantrum as it is to be ready to say "thank you...I appreciate that.  Hey...I'm making coffee...would you like some."

Yes...even if you don't "feel" like "being nice"..it's important to be ready to do this.  

Big picture:  You are opening doors or allowing doors to stay open.  He and he alone can decide to walk through those doors.

From personal experience it can be harder to "be nice".  Especially if he "just" picks up the dish, yet doesn't apologize for other stuff or perhaps there is some attitude.  

This is where it's important for you to be the "emotional leader".  Don't needlessly fan conflict and also be ready to acknowledge your appreciation when he does things you appreciate.

You can do this.  Regardless of his actions, this can be a success for you.

That's worth repeating...it's not about him being nice or pitching a fit.  

How does that idea sit with you?

Best,

FF

Hi FF,

I am doing my best to stay focused on me and how the tools help me. It’s exhausting with him however. It’s impossible to have every step I take somehow be an issue with him. He comments some under his breath or simply says it directly.  Unreasonable, skewed and unfair.

Case in point.  We don’t watch the news. I do but not when he’s around, he hates it. I have for years worked from home. I am mostly home by myself during the day since kids are in school.  I usually leave a tv on for background noise and put it on my favorite channel which is pretty popular everywhere and non controversial.  If I take a break or it isn’t a busy day, I’ll sit and watch for a bit. Often it may be something I’ve seen before and usually I don’t mind seeing it again. He hates this channel and it really annoys him. I don’t care but generally don’t watch when he’s around (meaning we’re watching something together, it won’t be that).  

And to illustrate how weirdly controlling he is, we have a tv in the kitchen. I’ll put it on when I’m cooking. If I step out for a second, he’ll change the channel or put a movie on. Mind you, no one else is in the kitchen. When we sit down, I don’t expect everyone wants to watch my stuff — we talk through dinner anyway — so I’m okay with putting on something for everyone. Anyway, I just put my show back on and tell him to not change my show.  75% is just background noise...proof, sometimes it takes me ten minutes to notice he changed it. I like it because it’s interesting, something I enjoy and you can pick up wherever AND no politics, religion, etc.

BUT back to the hypocrisy. He’s a tv/movie buff. He has a favorite movie that is 40 years old. We watch it at least 20-25 times a year.  He likes reality tv and will watch every trashy show there is.  He’ll rent and watch previous seasons over and over (hence the high cable bill).  And said movie is the movie he bought a piece of memorabilia for four hundred dollars mid-pandemic and sent me a message at 3 in the morning that he was doing it, that he knew it was irresponsible, but he had to have it. But fake vomit if I watch one of my shows. Charming.

U-turn. I am gathering strength and understanding to be the emotional leader. But, let’s be honest, I’m up against a lot and I’ve realized that it’s the sheer number of disruptions to EVERYday life that is insurmountable. Even if I could do it perfectly, I would be so exhausted there would be time for nothing else.

Yes, I’ve learned amazing tools and boundaries but I think it’s too late for this relationship. His insistence that he’s been available this whole time to discuss finances is either full on gaslighting (he said it was me...he’s lying ding ding) or he was so emotionally out of body he doesn’t remember.

When he “apologized” last month and I told him my hesitations — can’t tolerate verbal abuse and breaking things (physical abuse), he seemed stunned. As if he didn’t “remember” that these things happened. They did.

The thing is I can make things better with him/our relationship for me. But I don’t have this issue with other people and he likely will just find new ways to disrupt me.

Choosing to “need” my computer for work the EXACT day I start my new job when he’s watched reality tv and chatted on Facebook for the past 3 months is disruptive. Sending intimidating messages about our conversation he decides he wants to have in the middle of my day (a conversation I’ve tried to have multiple times for the last 3 months but he was not able to) when I’m doing intensive work training is disruptive. Saying he’s going to put the house on the market because I pulled the trash bag out but hadn’t run it out to the garbage yet is disruptive. Not to mention, why the F couldn’t he just run it out. He literally has taken out 1 bag in 10 years.

My point is despite all the times he’s threatened divorce, I do think he may mean it at the time and maybe for a while, but I don’t think he actually will. And yet I can choose that I don’t want to live this way any longer.  

And I don’t think it magically is wonderful.  There will be problems and worries but I won’t have someone screaming vile nasty things at me. Flat tires, kids struggling in math, unexpected bill sans disordered H sounds pretty damn good.

So, yes, the skills are valuable to me and will be helpful in the future and in co-parenting, but the are just for me.

Thanks FF. I wished for a better outcome. I don’t believe it will ever come and now I’ve expended enough of my energy on false hope. This won’t be fast, but it is coming.

I appreciate all the help you have provided. It has helped me and even him some, but he’s really just so busily disordered.

[UBPDHelp]

But opening doors to what? It sounds like opening doors to rebuilding or improving the relationship, and that doesn't seem to be where UBPDHelp is at right now. I might be misreading all of this, in which case, please ignore.

I did hope it could be better. It can’t. He’s more and more lost but won’t see or get help.

One thing I see in this thread is the UBPDHelp is essentially saying that she doesn't want to make this work. I don't mean that to sound harsh, and I know I am reading my own experience into things, but that's what I see between the lines. Are there things she could do that might make things more tolerable? Sure. And probably a good idea to do those things right now, but mainly to keep some kind of peace and stability.

I did want it to work. Fighting for it now offers me the rest of my life dealing with this. He will need near constant tools and boundaries. It’s not sustainable. Maybe that’s my failure...but it is reality.

The thing I struggle the most with is admitting to myself that I don't love my wife in the way that I used to--that I just plain don't feel the same about her. And I spent a lot of time trying to justify why I felt the way I did, and there's plenty to point to. But the truth is that even if she changed all of that and started behaving like a drastically different person, I don't want to be married to her. It's not the relationship I want. It's not going to be. The best version of it I can imagine is not one I want. Mainly because it involves a relationship with a person I don't love in the way I think I should love a partner. I don't have children, so that makes it a bit easier. But my point is just that one thing that has gone mostly unexamined here is how UBPDHelp actually feels about her H.

Agree. I fought so long and hard. Granted without tools, etc., but I can’t change that. And now how could I love someone who so clearly cares nothing about me and has treated me so horribly?

My guess is that she is hearing a lot of advice on how to possibly improve things, and somewhere in the back (maybe the front) of her mind is the thought that she isn't interested in improving things. The focus on him is, in part, a focus on finding a sufficient reason for feeling like she does. I guess the thing I'd say is that you don't need that sufficient reason. You feel how you feel. And you can make decisions to act contrary to how you feel and hope those other feelings come back. Or you can make decisions based on how you feel, what you can imagine the future to be, etc. I don't think one way is better than the other. But I think it's important to actually examine that. There's some chance I could peacefully exist with my wife. I don't at all think she's a terrible person. I still love her in some way. We could have a life that could possibly be fine. But I don't want that life, and I don't want that life with her. That's a hard thing to admit and a hard thing to say. It sometimes seems easier to wait for her to fail, or to pretend I'm keeping a door open. But at some point, we have to take an honest assessment of ourselves and how we feel and what we believe and what we value and etc. And that might lead to not being very keen on leaving doors open.

Again, maybe I'm way off. 

Thank you. I have spent a lot of time on why he does this or that. Some looking at if I was doing things to cause it (even if I were, his response is unacceptable). And, yes my compass in life is broken and points, wobbly, due southwest, except if it’s Tuesday and then it points to Neptune. I did want to understand if my feelings were justified or normal response to his behavior. And because my decision impacts our four kids, wanted to be damn sure.

My only clarification is about want. I wanted my relationship to work.  It can’t. My daughter wants a pet unicorn.  She can’t have it either.

So, in a way, it’s not even making the decision, it’s accepting that this just is the situation. Thanks stolencrumbs...you’ve clearly been where I am and for that I am so sorry. I hope you’re doing well now and would love to hear more of your journey. Thanks for your help.

[UBPDHelp]

As usual, excellent material from Gottman! Thanks for sharing that, FF!

I’ll take the liberty of paraphrasing comments UBPDHelp has made more than once...please let me know if this is off the mark.

“Why should I work so hard to change my approach if it doesn’t really improve the relationship and a couple of years from now I’m still feeling the same way I do now?”

To respond to that, as so many have already—Making those changes are for you, not him. It may salvage the relationship to where it’s tolerable, and it may not.

But what it absolutely will do is strengthen you where you won’t be as impacted by unpleasant behavior and even more importantly, you will build up your self esteem so that you know exactly where you stand and this cannot be undermined by someone else.

Aren’t you worth the effort to learn new ways to respond? I think you are.

Thanks Cat. I think that’s my sentiment with the slight caveat that I am WILLING (or was) to put in the effort. I no longer think that the effort will benefit my relationship with my H.

But, learning about JADEing (this would have been helpful 25 years ago!), SET, and boundaries has improved things for me. They are tools for all kinds of better relationships.  Most don’t need this amount of effort.

I don’t think he is capable of better.

And he does have good qualities but they no longer outweigh the unchangeable.

Thanks Cat.

[formflier]

I don’t think he is capable of better.

 

Big couple of breathing exercise moments...

If he isn't capable of better, how do you square that judgment with the lack of dishes being flung around and hot liquid being thrown?

What is status of "the dirty dish"?

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

Wow, there are a lot of moving parts going around in this thread.          

UBPDHelp,

You have a lot going on and much of it stressful.   Take a couple of minutes... literally please take a couple of minutes ... to center yourself.    sit and stare out the window.    do some deep breathing exercises.    collect your energy and your inner strength.    build your resolve.    do a little stress relief exercise.    a little guided meditation.  google and youtube are full of them.

 If I step out for a second, he’ll change the channel or put a movie on. Mind you, no one else is in the kitchen.

an abuser needs to be right and in control. and thrives on exerting power on their victim; someone must be the loser.    

I think it’s too late for this relationship.

you've given it careful thought.   you know best.   its your decision and it's complex.    its what is best for you and for the kids.    No One should suggest otherwise.

When he “apologized” last month and I told him my hesitations — can’t tolerate verbal abuse and breaking things (physical abuse), he seemed stunned. As if he didn’t “remember” that these things happened. They did.

 

Memory is often fuzzy after/during a dysregulation.   Being stunned could be a reflection of being called out on his bad behavior.

I can choose that I don’t want to live this way any longer.  

there are times where a relationship becomes irreparably broken.   when a relationship has failed and can not be recovered.    it's sad.   it's tragic.   it is what it is.   if you are ready to say this relationship is failed... that is what matters.
  

Re: the stance that he never said he wouldn’t discuss — it’s a total lie — how can I protect myself from this going forward?  I documented for myself, but not sure that proves anything.

it's a moot point right now.   this is a false argument.  or gaslighting.   which ever you prefer to call it.   don't bother trying to prove it.

I would suggest we work to deepen/broaden/expand your ability to work with the JADE tool.     right now the JADE tool is being employed in a transactional way.    I will (or will not) JADE and I will get XYZ in return.

I would suggest we add another A to JADE.   Justify.   Argue.    Assist.   Defend.   Explain.

Your husband is an educated and professional adult with a high intellect.   Still you explained to him what was in the various accounts and what was coming due.   Assisting and Explaining to some one is being verbally and financially abusive is not a good place to put your energy.   You did not owe him anything.   there is a reasonable expectation that as an adult he could have figured this out himself.    what was stopping him from calling the bank... getting on the website... resetting his password... creating a login.. getting the bank statement and going through it...creating a budget.    You know any of the dozen things normally done by a functioning adult?

to deepen or expand the JADE tool ... you can work to stop JADE-ing verbally to him in conversations but you can also work to identify when JADE is in play in your head.     and then gently redirect your own thinking into more productive pathways for you.    "hmmm - my first thought was I need to explain to him about the accounts and the bills... what do I get out of this?   how is this productive for me?    what could I do that protects me and moves me in the direction of my goals?"

how does that sound to you?

'ducks

P.S.  your mailbox is full... can you clean out your PVT mail?

[formflier]

I'll second the motion for a good deal of centering time.  The whirl of crazy can make it hard to sort out what is real and important and what is "noise".  Often our raw feelings help confuse that as well.

Many times (most of the time) it's helpful to "back up" and look at the big picture ask some simple questions.  As Babyducks has below.

  You did not owe him anything.   there is a reasonable expectation that as an adult he could have figured this out himself.    what was stopping him from calling the bank... getting on the website... resetting his password... creating a login.. getting the bank statement and going through it...creating a budget.    You know any of the dozen things normally done by a functioning adult?

Would you agree that you are functioning as his accountant.   I would argue "overfunctioning".  When he decides to whirl into financial town, he asks questions and the floodgates of information flow out from you (and of course he insults you and rewrites history).



Several posts back I tried to inject some humor and also make a point.  I don't think the point "landed"

You are willing to listen to an apology for the way he treats his cook (you).  If it seems sincere, you are willing to watch carefully to see if he treats his cook differently in the future.

 

I was purposeful to use the language "his cook" to see if I got a "hey...wait I minute..I'm not "his".

That's what I'm talking about when I talk about big picture.  I'm going to venture out on a limb and suggest that UBPDHelp was focused on details and missed the big picture thing about "being his".

So...after some centering time, ask yourself if "being his (fill in the blank) is a role you are willing to continue playing?  Should you continue playing it?

Last:  I obviously tend to be on the optimistic side of dealing with pwBPDs and many of my comments can easily be taken as trying to "save he r/s" and "improve the r/s". 

It's important to clarify the goal is to "improve" UBPDhelp's role in her family.  That's very separate from her choices on the status of her marriage and her decisions about her marriage.

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Big couple of breathing exercise moments...

If he isn't capable of better, how do you square that judgment with the lack of dishes being flung around and hot liquid being thrown?

What is status of "the dirty dish"?

Best,

FF

Agree on the deep breaths. 

I don’t mean to appear to be talking in absolutes. I don’t believe he can get sufficiently better that I am able to continue. I don’t believe any change he makes is anything but temporary.

I can’t explain how I got here. I can’t explain what happened in the last seven years and then more so the last year that caused the rapid fire change in bad behavior that had only shown itself here and there, but all along.

Because I can’t understand it (and maybe why I’ve so desperately tried, focusing a lot on him), I feel MUCH concern that it can’t be fixed. I’m not looking for perfection, I’m looking for tolerable sprinkled with occasionally good.

Much of my hesitation/frozen has been FEAR of how much worse leaving would be.  A month ago it was he would let me decide custody, he would pay alimony/CS to the calculated formula. All he wanted was his name back.  Yesterday, I get the intimidating email as if I’m doing something dubious. Truthfully nothing dubious but it does feel like sh!t not fulfilling financial obligations. I have tried, I have talked to him about it. A lot of promises that have never been kept. Add total meltdown when trying to reset that and I learned (not correctly) to not discuss and just try to manage. Yes, I can throw the bills to him, BUT he’d likely decide he needs a vacation or some thing and the house and electricity impact us all.  Feels like lose lose.

Anyway, I can accept he can change as much as he’s willing. I don’t believe it’s enough.

[UBPDHelp]

Wow, there are a lot of moving parts going around in this thread.          

UBPDHelp,

You have a lot going on and much of it stressful.   Take a couple of minutes... literally please take a couple of minutes ... to center yourself.    sit and stare out the window.    do some deep breathing exercises.    collect your energy and your inner strength.    build your resolve.    do a little stress relief exercise.    a little guided meditation.  google and youtube are full of them.

Yes, I am trying. At the moment he is holding. I am elsewhere. Distance helps. Deep breaths.

an abuser needs to be right and in control. and thrives on exerting power on their victim; someone must be the loser.

Does he know he’s abusing?

It’s ridiculously stupid. I’m sorry. I’m not threatening. I’m compassionate and will stand up for myself. I haven’t with him so much because meltdown avoidance. Now I don’t care. I get bullish!t regardless so I no longer bend. He doesn’t like it and seems mostly confused by it.    

you've given it careful thought.   you know best.   its your decision and it's complex.    its what is best for you and for the kids.    No One should suggest otherwise.

Thank you. It’s hard. If it were just me, I might allow myself to believe there’s hope. When the kids have expressed their feelings I will now be complicit in letting the abuse to continue. That I cannot allow.

  

Memory is often fuzzy after/during a dysregulation.   Being stunned could be a reflection of being called out on his bad behavior.

This is beyond. He has been confused each time I’ve told him. He tries to rewrite what happened.  Assign me the blame. I have refused it of late. He definitely doesn’t like that BUT seems to notice his old tricks no longer work.

there are times where a relationship becomes irreparably broken.   when a relationship has failed and can not be recovered.    it's sad.   it's tragic.   it is what it is.   if you are ready to say this relationship is failed... that is what matters.

It is. He’s said it 500 times. Maybe just an attempt to control. But that’s much the behavior that broke it.
  

it's a moot point right now.   this is a false argument.  or gaslighting.   which ever you prefer to call it.   don't bother trying to prove it.

This isn’t a personal need. I am quite concerned that he will twist the truth and absolve himself of financial responsibility on these things. He’s a super aggressive litigator.  He knows how to spin an argument. He can be charming. I’m hoping I can establish joint responsibility.  I hope that makes sense.

I would suggest we work to deepen/broaden/expand your ability to work with the JADE tool.     right now the JADE tool is being employed in a transactional way.    I will (or will not) JADE and I will get XYZ in return.

I would suggest we add another A to JADE.   Justify.   Argue.    Assist.   Defend.   Explain.

Your husband is an educated and professional adult with a high intellect.   Still you explained to him what was in the various accounts and what was coming due.   Assisting and Explaining to some one is being verbally and financially abusive is not a good place to put your energy.   You did not owe him anything.   there is a reasonable expectation that as an adult he could have figured this out himself.    what was stopping him from calling the bank... getting on the website... resetting his password... creating a login.. getting the bank statement and going through it...creating a budget.    You know any of the dozen things normally done by a functioning adult?

to deepen or expand the JADE tool ... you can work to stop JADE-ing verbally to him in conversations but you can also work to identify when JADE is in play in your head.     and then gently redirect your own thinking into more productive pathways for you.    "hmmm - my first thought was I need to explain to him about the accounts and the bills... what do I get out of this?   how is this productive for me?    what could I do that protects me and moves me in the direction of my goals?"

how does that sound to you?

I like this. I need time to sort out how this works. Give me some time.

'ducks

P.S.  your mailbox is full... can you clean out your PVT mail?

Thanks BabyDucks.  

I didn’t realize...cleared out. Thank you!

[Cat Familiar]

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