Another crisis part 2

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

This is a continuation of a previous thread https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=345498.30

Oh, I’m very much against what he’s doing and he knows it. I try not to come across as judgmental but I’m clear that I don’t think it’s healthy or wise. (He eats little and the weight doesn’t go down — so where’s the logic in continuing to eat little?) better to eat healthy foods through the day. As I said, he’s messing with his metabolism, mood, all kinds of things.

He’s never been a breakfast person — only on vacations, really. Skipping lunch entirely (except maybe on a Saturday), that’s been in the last couple of months. Before that, he would eat a salad or fruit and yogurt or something during the week. He’d loosen up a bit on weekends.

He drinks 2-4 cups of coffee in the morning, then mostly water. Maybe a diet soft drink. He drinks plenty of water from what I can see.

It’s not working. But I can’t convince him to do anything else. No, I don’t think all this is the result of BOD. But his search for easy answers and refusal to accept any answers other than the ones he has set in his head very well could be.

I’ve wondered that myself, Cat. I know I get very irritable when my blood sugar is low. I can’t skip meals without feeling sick. Not eating makes it harder for him to regulate, I believe. But he insists that if his weight is up, it’s also very hard for him because he gets more anxious and depressed.

[Ozzie101]

This is a continuation of a previous thread https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=345498.30

Oh, I’m very much against what he’s doing and he knows it. I try not to come across as judgmental but I’m clear that I don’t think it’s healthy or wise. (He eats little and the weight doesn’t go down — so where’s the logic in continuing to eat little?) better to eat healthy foods through the day. As I said, he’s messing with his metabolism, mood, all kinds of things.

He’s never been a breakfast person — only on vacations, really. Skipping lunch entirely (except maybe on a Saturday), that’s been in the last couple of months. Before that, he would eat a salad or fruit and yogurt or something during the week. He’d loosen up a bit on weekends.

He drinks 2-4 cups of coffee in the morning, then mostly water. Maybe a diet soft drink. He drinks plenty of water from what I can see.

It’s not working. But I can’t convince him to do anything else. No, I don’t think all this is the result of BOD. But his search for easy answers and refusal to accept any answers other than the ones he has set in his head very well could be.

I’ve wondered that myself, Cat. I know I get very irritable when my blood sugar is low. I can’t skip meals without feeling sick. Not eating makes it harder for him to regulate, I believe. But he insists that if his weight is up, it’s also very hard for him because he gets more anxious and depressed.

[Cat Familiar]

I occasionally see a naturopathic doc and get a blood panel for micronutrients. Also I’ve discovered through that doc and DNA testing that I have some genetic variants that make it impossible to metabolize certain nutrients, so I have to supplement them. This has resulted in much better health for me. Perhaps he might be open to seeing an alternative medical practitioner who could figure out this weight issue.

[empath]

Anyway...I'm positive that BPDish tendencies and bad relationships skills don't help him...but I don't think his regular breaks from reality are "BPD"

Dissociation is fairly common among people who have BPD tendencies. It can range from depersonalization to full dissociation.

My h would have feelings of dissociation pretty regularly, and there were different levels of his dissociative experiences. He would describe not recognizing himself in the mirror, rage episodes where he didn't really remember what happened, etc. He could completely misunderstand what happened in those times, too.

Sometimes, he would get super obsessive over his weight and his health. He would start "training for a marathon" (he has never successfully completed this goal for one reason or another) - and very close attention was paid to his diet and exercise routine. This would take up a lot of his free time and would spill over into judging me and the kids, pulling us along for the ride.

His struggles with his weight, aging and appearance are ongoing and made our relationship very difficult. Eating disorders are also frequently associated with BPD - some centers treat both as part of the ED plan.

That's all to say that BPD has a lot of different ways that it can manifest itself.

[formflier]

Empath

Would your husband think things had happened, which hadn't?

I would believe this issue was BPDish if he had gotten fired, but didn't remember it.

He is believing things have happened to him, that never did. 

Which has me scratching my head.

Best,

FF

[empath]

FF,

Would your husband think things had happened, which hadn't?

Yes, he would. For example, when he moved out, he thought I had told him to move out. He even tried to prove to me that I had, but he couldn't find the "proof" that he had. There are a lot of times of weirdness like that.

[formflier]

So  (not arguing with you/at you) but trying to make my point.

I see that it's similar..

If I remember right your hubby was a preacher for a while..right? 

This would be like him believing he went in and preached, yet never left the house.

Or believing he had a meeting with the ordination committee and they stripped all his credentials, when the truth is they didn't meet.

I'm not sure what the difference in dissociation and hallucination is.

https://www.milespsychology.com/post/2016/06/14/so-whats-the-difference-hallucination-vs-delusion-vs-depersonalization-vs-dissociation

So...I would argue the issue we are talking about is more of a hallucination. 

He perceived there were voices talking and saying you are fired, when that never happened.

Best,

FF

[empath]

Or like him believing that he had told a group of people to complete certain tasks, but it never happened. I know because I was in the meeting when he said he told them - I didn't hear him tell them, and he was incredibly angry with them because they didn't complete the tasks.

My understanding is that dissociation is separation from physical sensations of consensus reality. It seems that hallucinations are additive in some way. I'm not sure how much of these things are due to the stories that they make up in their heads, though. It is a known issue for pwBPD traits.

From what I understand, Ozzie's h really wants to quit his job and would prefer for someone else to make it easy for him (by firing him or telling him to quit).

[formflier]

So yes it's "possible" that the "only" explanation for this is an emotional/bpdish one.


If that is the explanation I would say my point/issue with this shows how severe this is

When I look at the examples Empath has given, those (to me) seem to be related to his job/life rather than central to it.

such as

A chef claiming he cooked a meal for his customers, when he never went in the kitchen...seems very different to me than a chef claiming to have given instructions to someone but forgetting to do it or getting the details wrong.

I've never met a CEO type that didn't express that who was part of the team (including themselves) was central to their role.

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

I really appreciate all this input.

As I’ve said, I’m at a loss. It’s hard for me to really figure anything out because at this point I can’t trust anything he says. Is he even saying the right things to the doctors? I don’t know. Half the time I don’t even know he has an appointment — or it’s when I can’t be there.

I do see some similarities in what empath says. My H does have a history of thinking he said things or been clear when he hasn’t (and that’s in normal times). But the completely fabricating whole conversations or making “out there” statements (like talking about our pre-nup, which we don’t have or talking about the PI his lawyer has watching our house) are different and only come out when he’s full-on dysregulating.

And, yes, he wants out if the job and has tried many times to get me to tell him to quit.

I don’t know what’s really going on at work. Are people as bad as he says? Maybe. Maybe not. I don’t know. The fact that I won’t go all-in blasting people or jumping in on his behalf frustrated him. He feels like spouses should defend and protect each other. I agree. But I don’t think it’s my place to insert myself into his professional life (as I wouldn’t want him to do with mine) and I can’t trust what he’s told me, even I’m calm times.

He’s under a lot of stress now. The job. The weight. Figuring out SS’s school situation for the fall. But I don’t have faith that those things being fixed would solve the problem long-term. There will always be stress.

[formflier]

  Is he even saying the right things to the doctors? 

The reason I suggest going with him or at a minimum having a conversation with the doc before he goes again. 

There is just no substitute for an in person conversation.

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

Agreed. I’m hoping that will work, my going.

[Ozzie101]

Honestly, at this point I’m getting worn out. It seems like it’s one crisis after another.

His job
His weight
SS9’s school
His job search
Plus any number of other problems and annoyances.

There’s never good news.

I don’t want to be insensitive. There may be a very real medical problem. Or work problem. In which case, I don’t want to be the cruel and disinterested wife/stepmom. But when it’s constant complaints and bad news, I start to go numb.

If I don’t seem to care, that just increases his sense of abandonment or leads to even more panicking on his part.

I realize I probably need to focus on myself more, practice self-care better. But it’s not easy. I’ve trained him to rely on me, to use me as the dumping ground for his fears and bad feelings. I’m more detached than I used to be (which leads to either recrimination or “poor me” reactions from him — and lots of passive-aggressive stuff). But it still goes on.

[formflier]

If I don’t seem to care

I think you should be explicit that your going and "pushing this" is part of your caring being put into action.

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

This is the dynamic that happens when one is a helper/caretaker and the other is needy. To step out of it, you’ll have to make a concerted effort to not care about being labeled as cold and insensitive.

I know. I had to do it too. I remember saying, “You’re right. I don’t care about X, but I do care about you.” Repeatedly.

He’s not going to utilize self soothing strategies if you do it for him. And if you continue to do that, you will lose respect for him and the relationship will further devolve into a caretaker role for you with less of what initially attracted you to him in the first place.

[Ozzie101]

I think where I struggle is that I do care about some of these things.

His job (or lack of one) affects me.
His health affects me.

So, I care. Do I care if SS goes to physical school next month? Only in so much as it impacts our life (childcare concerns) but it’s for H and Ex to work out. Though, according to H, Ex has tried to draw me in. “Why can’t Ozzie stay home with him sometimes? This shouldn’t be all on the two of us.”

I agree that he’ll never learn to self-soothe if I do it for him. And you’re spot-on about respect and the devolution of the relationship.

FF, you’re absolutely right. That’s something I’ve said to him many times. “I’m ending this conversation now because I care too much about you and us to discuss it when we’re tired/upset.” Or other iterations if the same. It’s also been said in calm times to let him know how I plan to deal with things in the future.

That’s when his immature/childlike side shows itself. If people don’t respond in the way he wants, they don’t care and are unhelpful. Similar to a child who is upset that mom is making him tie his shoes himself. It’s not that she doesn’t care about him. She just wants him to practice and learn how.

The answer, I guess, is to just keep saying it and enforcing it until it takes root — or one of us has enough.

[formflier]

I think going to the doctor with him now is an appropriate amount of "caretaking".

I also think you should introduce the idea of an alternative provider (assuming the doctor is reluctant to check vitamin levels)

I've been thinking a lot about this situation and I doubt its "one thing".  It's probably more a "straw that broke the camel's back" thing.

So...maybe this was all triggered by the old SP retiring (work).  We can't fix that..it is what it is. 

In my analogy the SP retiring is the "last straw".   

Yet, if he becomes more resilient by eating better, vitamin supplements, proper sleep and addressing bloodwork that is off...then all of a sudden that "last straw" doesn't break his back" anymore.

Make sense?

He's been doing lots of unhealthy things for a  long time, likely no magic cures here..just start consistently going in the right direction (healthy)

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

It does make sense, yes.

The trick will be in getting him to agree to a healthier lifestyle. He says he has trouble sleeping because he wakes up worrying about stuff at work. I encourage healthy eating but he insists that if he eats, he’ll gain weight and he’d rather die than be overweight again. (Exact words.)

We’ll see what this week’s doctors say. I may not be allowed to go after all. Most medical offices now have a “patient only (except for vital caregivers)” policy. But maybe he can phone me and put it on speaker.

[formflier]

Crap..I didn't consider COVID restrictions. 

Better call ahead.

Talk to doc about referral to nutritionist.  Let him explain to doc that he would rather die than eat and be overweight.  Most likely he could eat more healthy stuff, especially spread out more and actually loose weight.

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

I went to my mom's dermatologist appointment today in spite of the Covid-19 restrictions -- Mom just had to say I needed to be there for the consult.

[Ozzie101]

Bad day. I got word that we’re going back to remote work, which was actually good news to all of us. Safer. And we shouldn’t have gone back in anyway.

On the way home, a car ran into mine and drove off. This was on the freeway at rush hour so you can imagine there wasn’t much I could do. I pulled on the shoulder but no one stopped. It felt dangerous and I was close to home so I went on. Have a call in to the non-emergency number for police.

His reaction to the wreck:
Did you get the license number?
I can’t believe you didn’t have your phone out and ready to take a picture. I always have mine on and in my lap.
This is the second time someone has done this. Do you know how much our premiums will go up if we file?

Notice what was missing.

H was turned down for another job. He said it’s because he told them he wasn’t sure he could come in 8 hours a week because his family is first. Looked pointedly at me when saying it.

His reaction to my working from home:
I’m going to go nuts. There will be too many people here.
I’ll just start spending more time at the office.
They couldn’t have told you sooner? I had to schedule a diet specialist appointment a month out because I didn’t think I could go this week (SS is with us).

He was in a mood. I get it. And I knew going in I wouldn’t get sympathy and affection. But I almost burst into tears talking on the phone to my mom when she immediately asked if I was ok and then was loving and sympathetic and even made a couple of jokes.

I told her everything else was fine.

And what bothers me most at this moment? I actually knew not to expect sympathy or concern or affection.

[Cat Familiar]

I'm so sorry and I'm glad you weren't hurt. 

Yes, it's extremely disappointing that he couldn't muster the slightest compassionate response or concern for your wellbeing.

Not a message you need to hear right now.

[empath]

I'm so sorry to hear about your bad day. The collision sounds scary for you with the traffic and all. Are you okay afterward?

Ozzie, is there a copy of the results from his bloodwork that you could read? I have to get labs done regularly, and I can access those results online.

FF,

When I look at the examples Empath has given, those (to me) seem to be related to his job/life rather than central to it.

They were actually central to his job and life. His professional role is to direct projects; he failed to direct. Before he moved out, he also quit his job and roles at the church because he believed he had to.

I would agree that they are indicators of severe dysregulation. I also saw an increase in his concern about his body, self-injuring behaviors, rages, etc.

[Ozzie101]

Thanks, y’all. I’m physically fine. Emotionally, I feel like I’m about to start crying. But I’m keeping it together. He wouldn’t respond well, I don’t want to do it with SS I’m hearing distance and at this point I’d rather just power through and deal with it later, when I’m alone.

Yes, empath, I will probably be able to read the results. They were supposed to be in today but I haven’t had a chance to ask him between the wreck and a work meeting for him (that he’s still on).

[formflier]

 

I'm sorry about the wreck and really glad you didn't get hurt.  Hang in there!

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

How are you feeling today? Any soreness? I'm so sorry!

[formflier]

Wishing you well in recovery as well.

Hey I was thinking about covid restrictions and going to the doctor with him.  I would suggest you let them know there are issues with recalling events/memory and that it's important you be there.

I bet that gets you over that hurdle.

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

Wishing you well in recovery as well.

Hey I was thinking about covid restrictions and going to the doctor with him.  I would suggest you let them know there are issues with recalling events/memory and that it's important you be there.

I bet that gets you over that hurdle.

Best,

FF

Absolutely...it's the truth. I didn't go into my mom's doctor appointments for the longest time...privacy thing...but now that I've noticed some short term memory loss, I have started to attend.

[Ozzie101]

Thanks for the suggestions. I’m feeling fine. No soreness. Thankfully it wasn’t a hard collision.

Things have been quiet around here today. H had a long, difficult meeting last night. Parents’ friend apparently has caused some trouble with the church child care center and some financial stuff. The new pastor is angry about it (agreed with H) so H is trying to deal with that. H was in a better mood when he mentioned it to me this morning, though he called her “Your buddy” and referred to another church member who caused a problem as (your parents’ other friend” (someone they knew 30 years ago and haven’t kept in touch with.

Hasn’t really said more about the wreck.

I’m going to ask him about his labs and ask about the appointment Thursday. We have SS with us so that complicates things even more, but if I can be part of it by phone call, that would be a good thing.

My dad’s birthday is Saturday and my sister sent around an email offering to host a gathering. Not what I wanted to see. H will not respond well to that news now. Honestly, I don’t think it’s wise to do it or for us to go, given the numbers. Plus, my sisters’ kids have been out and having sleepovers, going to day camps, etc. H’s Ex would flip out if we took SS. So really, I don’t think we ought to go. He’ll just be very unpleasant about it regardless.

Then there’s my additional guilt/worry over missing stuff. We didn’t go on the family vacation (mostly because, with my new job, I have very little time off and am trying to build it up). We just did a drive-by for my niece’s party last month. Now here’s another one. I guess I worry about missing out and turning down too many things. Truth is, I don’t think this is a time for family parties.

[Cat Familiar]

Family parties have been identified as the major source of transmission around here. If people strictly follow the rules, stay 6 feet away and outdoors, then maybe it's OK. But human nature being what it is, people forget.

[Ozzie101]

And some of these people are small children who I’m sure won’t be able to stay distant. One of them is in school (she’s autistic), another in a day camp, others staying over with friends. I just don’t know. I’ve visited my grandmother but I know how careful she’s been and we’re able to stay apart.

With heat indexes over 100 with high humidity, I highly doubt it will be outside. Maybe we can do what we did last time — a drive-by.

[formflier]

Hey...catch me up to speed one more time.

The purpose of the Thursday doctor visit is?  Is it a second opinion or another visit with the same guy?

Bloodwork being off the main issue?

Obviously being there is the best option, but via phone or video is acceptable.

I would practice using the phrase "rule out". 

It's one thing for a doctor to say "sounds like stress from bad work situation".  It's another thing for him to "rule out" (fill in the blank...and you have several blanks)

You also have to realize (unfortunately) that hubby may not have been as forthcoming with his doctor as he has let on, so doctor may not want to come out gunbs blazin to rule out all kinds of stuff

Think about this from the doctors point of view.  If he has never heard of this before he will likely want to take 1 or 2 steps rather than go full bore.

And that's ok. 

However, I would ask doctor what a reasonable course of treatment/investigation looks like, especially if this keeps happening.

Can you create a timeline of how many times he has "been fired"? 

Anyway..trying to think outloud a bit here..so somehow this thing gets moved to a better place.

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

The purpose is to find out why he’s gaining weight/weight is fluctuating. That’s the primary concern in his mind. He made that appointment before he even went in to his PCP for bloodwork, certain he wouldn’t give him good answers.

I do have questions — like what could be causing all this? What do we do about it? And I think the Thursday doc should know about the emotional/mental issues as well.

Fired? Only three times, I think. Other instances of forgetting or getting things totally wrong, though.

[formflier]

Ok..good idea to spend some time tonight getting your details and recollections right.

Fired how many times and when.  How long before he "remembered" correctly.

Same thing with the other issues.

I'm still a bit confused.  So this Thursday doc is not his PCP..right?

So is it second opinion or a specialist?

Did PCP refer him?

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

Second opinion. Not a specialist or referral. She’s not his PCP.

[I Am Redeemed]

I think it may be entirely possible that he is so fearful of getting fired that he convinces himself it actually happened, or he projects that it will happen and takes it on as fact.

My ex did similar things. It was usually a projection of what he thought was happening or would happen.

He also remembered specific details about conversations that absolutely never happened, or attributed actions to people that were simply not factual.

Incidentally, he was diagnosed with depression with psychotic features. It's a real thing and it may or may not be comorbid with BPD. I never knew if it was a co-occurring disorder or a misdiagnosis.

[Ozzie101]

That’s interesting, Redeemed.

I do think he’s terrified of being fired. There’s a lot of fear under his ranting. One of the other things he’ll rage about and hurl accusations about is me. He’ll insist he wants a divorce. That I’m leaving him. That I want to leave him. That I don’t care. But one of his biggest fears is that I will leave. So I do think there’s projection or his fears “coming to life” in his episodes.

It really is so hard to know what’s going on.

[Cat Familiar]

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