I left

[RestlessWanderer]

Things finally came to a head today and I left.
As usual my wife was upset with me for who knows what. Plans to go have a nice day were ruined because of that. Of course, she blames me. So to give her some space I was preparing to take our son out for the day. No real plan, just to head out and find something fun to do. Some thing about that got her even more angry. So when my son said he’d rather stay home with her I decided to just go for a drive anyway. As I walked out the door she followed me out, screaming profanities and insults.  Saying I ruined her plans but yet I get to go out. The only thing I said back to that was question who really ruined the plans. So I kept walking towards the car and ignoring her. Which of course made things worse. She picked up a large rock and threw it at me and hit the car. She’s a pretty good shot so I think she hit her mark. Thankfully it glanced off the window and didn’t break it. That was enough for me to know that there’s no reason to go back into that.
I don’t know what’s ahead of me and I don’t know how bad it’s going to get in the coming days weeks and months. But I know that I’m gonna be happier, and my son will be better off to be able to spend time with me away from that. I hope she doesn’t fill his head with too many lies. But in the end I know that things will be better. I’ve seen on here the many stories of people that have made it out and we’re thankful that they finally made the decision. So I hope to continue to add to my story and make it one with a positive outcome.

[I Am Redeemed]

I'm so sorry you experienced that 

What are your plans for now? When will  you see your son again?

[RestlessWanderer]

Not much of a plan right now. I’m going to move back in to our old house, a mobile home on our land and located a couple hundred feet from where my wife and son are living. She has been threatening to leave for quite some time. I’m sure she’ll move out as soon as she can. The benefit of being right next door is I should be able to see my son often.
Since we are waiting for something to happen regarding the accident my wife and younger son were in back in October she may stay for as long as is necessary. We’re hoping for a settlement since my son lost his life. But we don’t know what will happen since the police report states my wife was at fault. There were no eye witnesses and very little evidence to support that. Hopefully we have good lawyers.
I’ve been in contact with a divorce lawyer in the past so at least I have that lined up.
Right now it’s all so fresh I’m just trying to digest it all.

[I Am Redeemed]

I know, it's a lot to process. 

I would suggest you at least document the incident in a journal or a word doc on the computer. Document any emails or texts you get.

You may consider reaching out to a local resource for domestic violence. Throwing a rock at you is physical abuse. There may be resources you can access for counseling, safety plans, and legal aid.

I would also suggest you take a look at this link:

Safety First

and this one:

Domestic violence for men

[Turkish]

RestlessWanderer,

I can't imagine dealing with the grief of losing a child, much less dealing with a spouse like that, not to mention possible legal issues about the accident as you imply. Are there really going to be consequences for your wife about the accident?

You must be reeling, but take a look at the resources that I Am Redeemed posted. It's good to have a safety plan, and the DV for men discussion would be helpful, if only to see that you're not alone.

[RolandOfEld]

Hi Restless Wanderer, what happened to you in the past few days coupled with just reading about what happened to your son has me in tears as I write this. I feel deep sadness for everything you have been through and are going through.

I will focus on your current situation for the moment. I am only a few weeks ahead of you as I had my escape moment very recently.

I’m going to echo Turkish and Redeemed in emphasizing that with your one (very brave) decision, your situation has instantly pivoted from a focus on relationship maintaining to understanding and using the law. Everything going forward for you in terms of keeping yourself safe and seeing your son is about how you use the law. After legal protections are in place, then you can go back to interacting with her.

My strong suggestion is that you leverage this last moment of domestic violence to the utmost. If you suffered any kind of secondhand injury no matter how small go get a hospital abuse record. Go to your local police station and report the abuse. File for a temporary protection order if you think you need it, especially considering you live so close. And yes, document everything no matter how small or insignificant it seems.

In answer to your post, I do not regret for a second my decisions to move and file for PO and am VERY thankful. Though my situation is still in chaos that light at the end of the tunnel had never seemed so close. You’ve got this!

-ROE

[Radcliff]

RestlessWanderer,

I've not replied to you before, but read your posts to catch up.  I am so sorry for the loss of your son.  You've been working so hard to manage things, going to therapy, reading on the site, and trying to focus on your own actions.  It's a heavy load, and sometimes can feel like too much to bear.

The first priority is your physical safety, and then your emotional well being and that of your son.  It's good that you've got a place to stay close by, and that she has been respecting your privacy there.  While it's important to understand the legal process, I learned the hard way that the legal process is a very crude, very expensive, and very often ineffective tool that can drastically increase and prolong conflict.  A good book to read is Bill Eddy's, "Don't Alienate the Kids."

How have things been going for the last few days?

RC

[RestlessWanderer]

As I'm sure you can imagine, the last few days have had ups and downs. I've spent most of these days with my son. He's wanted to stay with me every night since I left. He has been doing really well with all of this. I imagine that he has some fear as well as some relief that he may not have to hear his parents fighting any more.
I've been feeling many emotions: fear, doubt, sadness, relief, confusion. Fear for the unknowns, fear for the possibilities of her actions/reactions, etc. Doubting if this is the right thing to do, doubting the gravity of my actions and my level of responsibility (basically my perspective vs hers). Sadness as I recognize the grief process beginning, sadness that I'm in this situation, sadness that she seems oblivious to her role. Confusion about how I should handle her civility in the face of this (seeing parallels to previous times we tried separating: I left then was welcomed back and slowly returned back).
We have been able to maintain civility over the last few days. When we're face to face she either talks about other things or talks about the many ways we are here because of me. Then she will say "What can you say about me? I get mad some times? I say mean things to you? Look what you've done, of course I get mad. Can't a wife get mad at her husband?" All the while I'm thinking that from my perspective she is volatile and blows up over the smallest things. This constant state of fear has conditioned me to avoid doing/saying things that I fear will anger her. At times, I have chosen dishonesty to avoid upsetting her. I wouldn't have that fear nor would I choose to be dishonest about these things if I wasn't living in the environment dominated by her volatility. While she is blaming me I'm also thinking that though she is admitting getting angry and insulting me, she is completely minimizing the scale, frequency, and lasting impact of her anger. She is also leaving out the fact that she has slapped me, kicked me, thrown a rock at me, threatened me with darts and a shovel, not to mention destroyed appliances and electronics in fits of rage. My thinking then jumps to the stereotypical line used by "wife beaters": "I wouldn't get so angry if you wouldn't do the things that trigger me."

Anyway, I'll welcome the peace, but I don't want to change course.

Thank you for reading

[Cat Familiar]

That she’s unable or unwilling to imagine how you’ve been impacted by her behavior tells you a lot about her model of the world and the possibilities for an emotionally healthy relationship.

[RestlessWanderer]

  A good book to read is Bill Eddy's, "Don't Alienate the Kids."

RC, I have read Bill Eddy books before. In fact his book BIFF set me down the road that lead me to discover the book "Stop Walking on Eggshells," which of course lead me here. I haven't read "Don't Alienate the Kids" but I will now.

Thank you for your thoughts and support.

[RolandOfEld]

Anyway, I'll welcome the peace, but I don't want to change course.

RW you are doing an amazing job. Don't change course. Keep moving forward. Though the first few weeks after the jump can be something of a nightmare it gets a little better each day as everyone adjusts to the "new normal". We can be firm and be civil, even kind at the same time.

Any updates from your lawyer?

~ROE

[RestlessWanderer]

Things have been relatively civil over the last few days. I am still living in a separate home, though it’s located next door to my wife.  My son has spent every night with me.
As far as things go between my wife and I, I get the feeling she is seeing this as something we will get through and seeing that I want to end it.  She invites me over for meals and to play together with our son. She will talk to me as if nothing has changed. However if her train of thought PLEASE READs to our marriage or any of her triggers, she will tell me all about how all of this is my fault and that all I can say is she “gets mad some times and says mean things.”
I have trouble being harsh and declining these invitations. I’m afraid that anything else I might say to indicate that we’re done will trigger her more. Being that we have to live next to each other, at least for now, I don’t know what to do.
I haven’t contacted a lawyer yet. My therapist recommended I try to find out if there are any attorneys here that are aware of BPD, especially in the context of divorce and custody law.

I don’t really have any questions for you here, but I’m open to any and all input.

Thanks

[oh_hai]

Holy Toledo, RW.  What a challenging set of facts you're dealing with!

I can so relate with so many things you express and am so impressed with your decision to take some room to contemplate what's best.

I don't have much to offer in terms of concrete advice.  I mostly just want to say that I understand and I care.

[RestlessWanderer]

I am feeling like a coward today. My uBDPw continues to play nice with me. My birthday is coming up this week and she is planning something for me. She wanted to do something today and had me take our son to my mom's for the day and night. I guess these plans fell through, but she said that we should be able to do what she was planning later in the week.
I'm going along with it all too. So I'm feeling like a coward since it was just a week ago when she hurled a rock at me, called me all sorts of names, took all of my clothes and personal items out of our house, and was ready to end everything. As my previous posts in this thread have stated, I've been staying in another place. That is until last night. She again invited me over for dinner, even invited my mom. We had a nice evening. She then told me I could stay there. She must have recognized some hesitation because she offered the couch or our son's bed (she was letting him sleep with her last night).
I just have a real hard time declining what appears to be a genuine friendly gesture. I know that if I did, her feelings would get hurt, which would likely wake the dragon. Or, at least be stored in the arsenal for future use.
I still plan on staying the course and staying in the other house.

I'm assuming that in a normal/healthy relationship one could discuss the anger, fighting, and violence (though they likely wouldn't exist in a normal/healthy relationship). I think that if I did, all that would happen would be an end to the peace, denial and deflection, and blame for having triggered those responses.

I feel like I'm in a lose lose situation here. If I go along with her civility I fear I will be leading her on and creating a false sense of absolution. Doing this will also fill me with more of this feeling that I have now. If I don't I will be creating increased tension and hostility.

As usual, I will just ride the wave and see where it goes.

[Cat Familiar]

It sounds as if you feel a bit guilty having a civil relationship with her, as if that would "lead her on".

Yet that's exactly what you need to do in order to coparent successfully.

[Radcliff]

You've painted a vivid picture for us of how tough the situation is, and all of the conflicting feelings you're having.  Go easy on yourself.  You are extremely fortunate to have a stable living situation, separate but nearby, and plenty of time with your son.  There need be no timetable for this.  You are not a coward.  You've got an opportunity here to practice boundaries that will be vital for healthy living whether you stay or leave the relationship (and you'll always be connected through your son).  What choices would you make if you were determined to stay true to yourself day-to-day, but treat the mother of your son with compassion and grace?  Would it feel OK to eat dinner with her and your son?  Would returning to your own place at night give you the space and separateness from her that you need now?  A healthy relationship is a long shot, but not impossible.  Leaving will take a ton of strength and be miserable for a while.  Trying to pull off a final separation before you're ready may lead to rebounding.  Build your strength, stay true to yourself and work on your boundaries and other skills and take the time you need for this journey.

You've done a lot of reading of books and this site  .  Have you heard of partial validation?

You mentioned that she's been violent several other times.  This needs to stop completely.  When was the last incident?  What was the worst and how long ago was it?

RC

[RestlessWanderer]

What choices would you make if you were determined to stay true to yourself day-to-day, but treat the mother of your son with compassion and grace?  Would it feel OK to eat dinner with her and your son?  Would returning to your own place at night give you the space and separateness from her that you need now?

Have you heard of partial validation?

You mentioned that she's been violent several other times.  This needs to stop completely.  When was the last incident?  What was the worst and how long ago was it?

RC, thanks for the post. I really appreciate your perspective. That helps ease my mind some. Your first couple of questions definitely give me something to ponder.

I haven’t heard of partial validation. Can you tell me more?

There have been a few episodes of violence. She’s slapped me a couple of times, kicked me once when I was on all 4’s doing something in our closet (thankfully there wasn’t enough space to kick me hard, but the action was very shocking), and the rock she threw at me last week. She has threatened to stab me with a dart (which I had to wrestle out of her hand). You can probably count the printer/copier she slammed into the driveway, the numerous plates she’s thrown onto the floor, a few holes she’s put into the sheet rock walls (shamefully I’ve done also), the microwave and coffee pot she threw from the counter, and probably other things too that seem minor compared to these.

I guess the rock had the potential to be the worst, and is the most recent. All have occurred within the last 4 years. Before last week it had been a year or two since she had struck me.
It’s no coincidence that the violence died down significantly when I started therapy and learned not to take the bait and try to refute her outlandish claims and insults. Therapy put a rapid end to my outbursts that lead me to hit the walls too.

I agree that this has to stop. Which is the main reason I left last week.
This evening she promised to start couples therapy as long as I’m willing. I’ve heard this promise before. So, I’ll take it with a grain of salt. She’s attended 1 out of about 10 sessions I’ve scheduled for us.
Typical to BPD, she has been very nice to me lately. She said she loves me so much her heart is breaking without me.

Needless to say, I’m very conflicted. The nearly constant state of chaos makes it hard for me to feel like being romantic or sweet. Planning things for us while living in this uncertainty is also very hard to find the motivation for. These, of course, make her feel more hurt and push us further into this vicious cycle.
I just don’t think that we will ever be able to make any progress unless she acknowledges the impact of her rage instead of just saying  that if I would stop doing the things that anger her then she wouldn’t act out like that.

It is worth noting that she is an insomniac, and in constant pain from the injuries suffered in the accident in October and in 2002, not to mention the PTSD from a childhood with a horribly violent abusive alcoholic father.

[RestlessWanderer]

24 hours later and the name calling and insults are back.
My wife went to town to help out a friend and bring home dinner.  4 hours later she text that she was almost home. We live about 30 minutes away so my son and I expected her at any time. After an hour I sent a text to check that everything was ok. No response for nearly an hour. She finally text back and told me that she got delayed and was on her way. 20 minutes later she sent me a message that she had run into her brother and had hired him to cut down the trees in our apple orchard. These trees have been on our property since well before my parents moved here in ‘72.
I haven’t done a good job of taking care of them and my wife has threatened for a couple of years to cut them down if I didn’t take care of them. I usually end up prioritizing my time around her sleep schedule, my work and fatherly responsibilities, and end up putting off working on them. In her opinion I’m not doing it because I’m lazy and want to spite her.
So, when she told me her brother was coming to do it I told her that I didn’t want them cut down. That pushed her rage button and she spent the next hour and a half texting and calling me to tell me how childish, lazy, worthless, selfish, vindictive and immature I am. Not to mention she said she wouldn’t have to call her brother if I was a man at all and the only reason I was putting up a fight was because my manhood was threatened by her having to pay her brother to do it.
On the phone calls I tried to refute her assignment of reasons for not doing the work. I pointed out that deciding unilaterally wasn’t a fair solution. Why not pay him to prune them rather than cut them down. She wasn’t  interested in compromise.
After she hung up on me she sent more texts saying that my laziness and spitefulness were the reasons why our marriage was failing.
I don’t know if I should have but I responded that If we could ever have a discussion without her flying into a rage we might be able to resolve our problems. And she needs to realize her rage lies at the root of our problems. I added that she shouldn’t minimize her anger and reminded her of all the times she’s hit, kicked and thrown things at me.
The only other thing I texted her was that I wasn’t going to engage in this back and forth anymore.
She finally made it home 4 hours after she text me that she was almost home. Imagine if I had done that.

[RestlessWanderer]

Things were going a little better today. My wife took our son to town to do some shopping and run some errands while I stayed home and got some work done, including some yard work. When they got home she mentioned she spoke with her brother. This is the brother that she had told to come cut down the Apple trees. She said that he’s upset with me for what she told him I I had said about him. Who know what she told him?
She was referring to our fight about getting him to cut down the trees. That day she told me that he was pissed at me, insinuating that he was angry about how I “treat” her. Regrettably I let that push a button and I responded by asking “What can he tell me? He’s a piece of s__t.” I was referring to the face that he’s a deadbeat dad who hasn’t raised his three boys except for the occasional sober period.
So when my wife got home today and made that comment, I bit my tongue, but not long enough. I told her that I said that in response to her saying he was mad at me. She then insisted that she had said that he was going to be mad about canceling the job for him. I should have seen that coming too. Thankfully I kept myself from arguing any further.

A day in the life...

[Radcliff]

RW,

To learn more about validation, take a look at this excellent page on how to validate and avoid being invalidating.  Partial validation is a variation on that theme.  If someone says seven things, and we disagree with six of them, we ignore the six we disagree with and heartily validate the thing we agree with.  It can bring a positive tone to the conversation.  It doesn't always turn things around, but is definitely a good tool.  At the very least, it helps us concentrate on the positive and not get sucked into arguing. 

Another good target for partial validation is feelings.  Her feelings are always valid, even if you don't think the facts surrounding them are.  You could say that you're sorry she'd feeling upset, or you're sorry she isn't feeling supported by you right now.  None of these tools are going to work like magic, but they make things a bit better (or at least avoid making them worse) enough of the time that they are absolutely worth the effort.

RC

[RestlessWanderer]

Thanks RC. I’ll look at that and try to put it into practice. I will have to find a different way to phrase things since she is now triggered by me saying “I’m sorry.” I think she may feel I’m patronizing her when I try to validate her feelings with that method. I have a feeling this is related to how she approaches therapy. She has read some psychology books and is adept at identifying textbook techniques and sees through them. She then usually chops down the therapist and abruptly ends sessions with that therapist. I’ve read about others here that deal with similar behavior.

Any advice on how to say “I’m sorry you’re feeling...” without saying “I’m sorry.” 

[RestlessWanderer]

FWIW, I should mention what I think I did well during the argument over the apple trees (I pointed out above what I know I didn’t do well). I tried to guide the argument towards discussing a compromise rather than the extreme measure of cutting them down altogether. It may have been a little too late as it seemed to fall on deaf ears. But I’ll take it as a step in the right direction in handling these inevitable situations.

[Cat Familiar]

Any advice on how to say “I’m sorry you’re feeling...” without saying “I’m sorry.” 

"It's unfortunate that you're feeling _____."
"I know I wouldn't want to feel _____."
"It's difficult to do everything you've done and still feel _____."
"I can't imagine how tough it is to _________."
"How are you managing?"
"That must feel like quite a burden."

Not sure if any of these would be appropriate for your wife. Just some quick responses. You might try listing some here that you might practice for later.

[Radcliff]

RW, I totally get where you're coming from about a partner "seeing through" our tool use.  Cat Familiar has done a great job of giving alternative ideas.  Thanks Cat!  I also have said things like "I want you to feel supported," or other expressions of wanting things to feel better for them.  It validates how they're feeling without saying, "I'm sorry."

How have things gone in the last day or so?  Have there been any conflicts?

RC

[once removed]

She has read some psychology books and is adept at identifying textbook techniques and sees through them. She then usually chops down the therapist and abruptly ends sessions with that therapist. I’ve read about others here that deal with similar behavior.

dont use textbook techniques. its patronizing, and anyone will see through it.

dont get me wrong: use the tools, but use your natural, authentic voice. be sincere.

easier said than done when youre learning a tool, for sure. it takes practice. then it becomes second nature.

Cat Familiar gave good examples. choose the one(s) that sounds like how you speak to your wife.

i dont know if youre a religious man, but in the bible, Jesus gives an example of how to pray when he recites the lords prayer. but a prayer would not have much of a relationship to whom hes praying if all he did was recite that prayer over and over.

in the same way, if you use rehearsed lines on your wife.

handling these inevitable situations.

despite moving out, there is still significant, ongoing conflict between you and your wife; not unexpected. and likely, there will be more.

have you read about stopping the bleeding: https://bpdfamily.com/deciding_guide/01.htm

[RestlessWanderer]

RC, Cat, and OR,
Thank you for your input. I've been reading through the "Stop the bleeding" toolbox. I will continue to work on these as well as through my therapist. It is extremely challenging to effectively put into practice and so hard to feel positive about any sort of progress.
I've tried (as I always do) to avoid causing conflict. But it seems that what I think is minor, often times is a trigger for my wife (such a hallmark of BPD).
So, here's a scenario that played out yesterday. I tried to apply some of what I've read, but the outcome was the same. Please lend me any feedback you may have.
For some time my wife has been feeling that stress (which she attributes mostly to me) has been affecting her health. She saw the doctor yesterday to try to work towards a diagnosis. At this point it's hard for me to gauge the actual severity of things since she tends to be fatalistic and very pessimistic, and of course because she blames me. Her doctor told her he wanted her to go for more tests on Monday, but wouldn't give her any clues so she wouldn't worry. Which of course caused more worry. I knew that this would throw off her emotional state and I would have to tread lightly.
She was also expecting a couch delivery and asked me to take the old couches out of the house with the help of a neighbor. While she was out I found out that the new furniture wouldn't be arriving for a few more days so I made the decision to put off moving the old furniture until we had a better idea of when it was going to arrive.
While she was out she was also picking up dinner and a birthday cake to celebrate my birthday.
So, now I've painted the picture for what was going on during the day. Here's where the conflict started.
After her appointment she was heading to the store to pick up the cake and dinner. She sent me a text to make sure the old couch had been removed. When I told her I didn't, she lost it. She then called me to tell me off. I let her say her peace without interrupting or arguing. I tried to tell her that I understood why she would feel frustrated, but if she would let me explain my decision she would understand why I didn't do what she had expected. She initially accused me of lying and making up an excuse to cover for me just being lazy and disrespectful. When I sent her a screenshot of the tracking information she said that it didn't matter when the new stuff was coming in, the agreement was to remove it. She then sent me a torrent of text messages basically saying that I am lazy, disrespectful, selfish, spoiled, entitled, unreliable, liar, no empathy, etc.
I didn't respond to any of those messages. I called the neighbor and got the couches moved out. When my wife got home, she told my son and I to take dinner and the cake to my mom's. She didn't want to go with us. A while later she told me to come pick up my gifts.

I don't know if changing the plan on my own was a big mistake or not. I should be able to make decisions on my own without fear of starting a fight.
I tried to validate her frustration and explain where I was coming from, and didn't let my emotions get the best of me. I didn't add any more fuel to the fire.
I solved the problem in the end by doing what she had asked (too little too late).

What do you think? (I tried my best to give a neutral retelling of the events)

[Radcliff]

Sorry you had that happen on the day you were supposed to be celebrating your birthday.  Her reaction was quite outsized.  You were doing something for her, you made a judgement call, and it wasn't irrevocable.  You in fact reversed it when she made her preferences known.  You were flexible and didn't lose your cool.  I can't think of anything you could have done better, though we've got some major talent on this thread and the others may pick up on something I missed.

How did you feel as this situation was evolving?

RC

[Cat Familiar]

This thread has reached its maximum length and is now locked. The conversation continues here:https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=345880.0