Help me prepare for a "discussion"

[Breakingfree9]

This global pandemic has caused a whole new level of behavior from my uPBDxw. It's heightened her "fight or flight", all things are black and white response to the world. She, of course, knows more than health professionals.
She goes to an office a couple of times a week. I'm 100% remote and have been for 12 years.
She's been to the salon. I haven't had a haircut since February.
She has a bf, who works outside the home, living with her most days a week. I don't date.
Yet, I'm the one putting D16 at risk of exposure.  You get it.

My uPBDxw wants us to have a "discussion" on Monday about Fall school for D16 (will be a Junior). Our school district offers the ability to lock students into online school for the entire semester --or-- choose an option which allows them to go back to school, a hybrid model or online classes depending on gating criteria.

uPBDxw wants to lock D16 into online school. She also wants to put on the table having D16 drop out of HS, pursue an online GED and begin college classes early. D16 just wants to be a normal high schooler.
I want D16 to have her own voice. She's worried about that because uPBDxw rages and D16 gets intimidated, is worried about repercussions and says she's "afraid of her."

This "discussion" will be at my house. I'm considering setting up chairs outside so if uBPDxw rages, my neighbors will hear it.

[livednlearned]

D16 just wants to be a normal high schooler

By normal, do you mean getting her high school diploma versus GED? Does she have a preference between online and hybrid?

I want D16 to have her own voice. She's worried about that because uPBDxw rages and D16 gets intimidated, is worried about repercussions and says she's "afraid of her."

How do you feel about D16's response?

This "discussion" will be at my house. I'm considering setting up chairs outside so if uBPDxw rages, my neighbors will hear it.

Not sure I'm following the rationale for having a heated discussion that your neighbors can hear? Are you wanting to get sole decision-making?

Do you and your ex typically meet in person to discuss things?

What if the two of you don't come to agreement? Do you have a sense of how you will proceed knowing she isn't on the same page?

[ForeverDad]

Who has Decision Making regarding schooling?  I suspect it's ambiguous in the parenting order, possibly unspecified as "joint custody".  Feel free to stand your ground but expect your ex to come with a steamroller to crush your boundaries and reasonable outlook.

The reality is that healthy children, teens, young adults and many middle aged have little to fear from COVID-19.  It's very serious, yes, and not to be treated lightly but most who are hit hard are in the older, aged and immune-compromised populations.

So the biggest risk regarding school is for younger ones to infect older persons with compromised health.  That means you have to remain healthy.

Yeah, try using reason.

Keep your daughter out of it, this is a decision for the parents.  Your daughter knows she can be intimidated to weaken your resolve.  Keep her out of it.  Kids don't decide.  (I learned that when a magistrate lambasted me in court one time.)

My thoughts... Don't wait for ex to make the decision for all by giving her time to make the first move regarding school filing.  Can you go ahead and file for what you and your daughter want?  Sure, it may go to court.  But by the time court gets around to siding one way or the other the school year will probably be half over.

The advantage we have now versus 6 months ago is that now we have a better understanding of the virus and how to treat it.  When a person gets infected we now can treat the viral infection while the body is still little impacted.  A variety of meds and vitamins are known to help today.  Hydroxycholorquine, zinc and/or azithromycin — a 1-2 punch that work together — vitamins A & D, quercitin, glutathione, etc.  For later stage cases where the body is overreacting and creating inflammation, added oxygen support and steroids like dexamethasone have shown promise.  All are inexpensive.  Yes, the establishment is advocating Remdesivir but it is very expensive and — like everything else — still doesn't help every patient.  (Disclaimer:  I'm not a health specialist but I do read a lot.)

[Breakingfree9]

Who has Decision Making regarding schooling?  I suspect it's ambiguous in the parenting order, possibly unspecified as "joint custody".  Feel free to stand your ground but expect your ex to come with a steamroller to crush your boundaries and reasonable outlook.

It's unspecified as "joint custody". I fully expect the steamroller -- hence the reappearance on this board.

Keep your daughter out of it, this is a decision for the parents.  Your daughter knows she can be intimidated to weaken your resolve.  Keep her out of it.  Kids don't decide.  (I learned that when a magistrate lambasted me in court one time.)

You're suggesting she not be present? Her mother invalidates her feelings now. By having her not present, we're both doing it.

My thoughts... Don't wait for ex to make the decision for all by giving her time to make the first move regarding school filing.  Can you go ahead and file for what you and your daughter want?  Sure, it may go to court.  But by the time court gets around to siding one way or the other the school year will probably be half over.

We haven't been presented the election form, yet. The pandemic has created a whole new level of overprotection (using the veil of the pandemic) to exert the control uPBDxw so desparately seeks. With D16, she says things like "You'll take remote only school.  You can use your phone to interact with your friends. If you aren't nice to me, I'll take your phone away and you won't interact with anyone." With this behavior, I've already laid the groundwork (without uBPDxw knowledge) with a family law attorney for a court-appointed mediator to intercede, if necessary.

The virus and getting sick isn't the issue. It's the use of the virus as an excuse to be even more controlling. Abusers attempt to isolate their victims.

I know exactly how it will go if I don't agree with her. She'll rage. She'll tell me I'm misinformed. She'll accuse me of being an irresponsible parent  and, if anything should happen, she'll blame me (she would anyway). Outdoors is to attempt to mitigate the raging (and, to a lesser extent, create social distance since she has a bf living in her house).

D16 wants the hybrid option.

[livednlearned]

You're suggesting she not be present? Her mother invalidates her feelings now. By having her not present, we're both doing it.

She seems also to be saying Please handle this for me, mom scares me. You can validate her feelings/wishes by advocating for her, without having her be in the middle, no?

What is involved in the hybrid option, and are you choosing to go that route regardless of mom's wishes?

I guess I'm trying to understand the purpose of the front yard meet up if you know the result? It seems to put yourself in a no-win shout match situation. That can't be great for you or D16.
 

[Breakingfree9]

She seems also to be saying Please handle this for me, mom scares me. You can validate her feelings/wishes by advocating for her, without having her be in the middle, no?

What is involved in the hybrid option, and are you choosing to go that route regardless of mom's wishes?

I guess I'm trying to understand the purpose of the front yard meet up if you know the result? It seems to put yourself in a no-win shout match situation. That can't be great for you or D16.
 

I can't make a unilateral decision -- even though mom has about D16's Summer job (she forced her to stop going against D16's wishes).

Putting people in no-win situations is what BPD's do, no? The question is what is the best way for nons to handle no-win situations?

[livednlearned]

what is the best way for nons to handle no-win situations?

I guess this depends on what changes you are comfortable making, and where you are in terms of healing and strength when it comes to dealing with her.

Setting boundaries seems to come easily to people who had their boundaries respected as a kid. A lot of us here didn't get that foundation and ended up with partners who have no boundaries (steamroller). So asserting boundaries becomes a learned skill (and the nervous system has to adjust   )

A boundary might be:

"You raise good points about covid and I agree this is an important decision. Meeting outside the front of my house works for me. My one request is that we engage in this discussion without name-calling, raising voices, or threats. If it seems like things are getting heated, I will take one for the team and walk into the house. We can pick this up later when things have cooled off and we're in a better place to make decisions."

Or, if you know she will rage, and you don't want to put yourself through the meeting charade, maybe go straight to plan B, which would be writing: "You would like option A for D16, and I can understand why you see it that way. I am curious about B, which I've committed to learning more about. For example, did you know that in the hybrid situation the kids and faculty blah blah blah). Then she replies with a big hate-write with exploding emojis and you experience the storm from the safety of your home, where you can just shake your head and share with friends here what just happened.

Another option as far as boundaries is to suggest bringing in an outside person to facilitate. If she doesn't agree to that, then the next thing is to explore what kind of actions you can take legally.

You deserve to be treated with respect. It doesn't sound like she got that memo. But that doesn't mean she gets to have a fit in your front yard.

[Breakingfree9]

Our "discussion" is supposed to be Monday.
Here is what I received from my daughter Sunday night:
 

On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 11:27 PM D16 <D16 e-mail> wrote:

            my mom took my phone away and i made a new email so she wont be able to see that im contacting you
            i have my school macbook but i have to type really slow and quiet because im scared
            she came in for another rant about covid and then i had a panic attack and then she took my phone and i went into the bathroom to shower and she came in and shut the door and blocked it and proceeded to yell at me and ask me if i needed to be medicated.

On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 11:28 PM D16 <D16 e-mail> wrote:

        i am sending multiple of these because i am scared she will come into my room

On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 11:29 PM D16 <D16 e-mail> wrote:

    she's going through my phone but i dont know whats on there and im afraid shell find something that upsets her and i will get into more trouble and i dont know how long the wifi will stay on or how long i will have my macbook

On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 11:35 PM D16 <D16 e-mail> wrote:
it all started because she came in and asked me what i wanted to do for school and i told her i wanted to go to school and then she got mad and when on a long rant and said a bunch of stuff and then kept asking me why i wanted to go to school and i stayed silent and then i was trying to say something but i got really anxious and then my vision went away and i started panicking and i had a panic attack and i was on the floor shaking and then she took my phone off my dresser when i wasnt looking and went through my messages with you and i got up to go in the shower and she found a message where you said remember to get your mom a bday present and i replied grrr and she came into the bathroom and showed me the text and was like what does grrrr mean? and then started yelling at me and basically told me i was putting on an act to get out of the uncomfortable situation and she yelled at me a bunch and i held onto the counter and shook and she told me that our relationship is unhealthy and i repsonded with this is whats unhealthy and that made her really mad and she told me i was gaslighting her and playing an act as i "stood there and quivered" and then i said nothing while she yelled and then she was like what is the panic attack? do you need to be medicated? huh?/ huh? and said that a bunch and then i asked her if i could shower and then she left me alone and took my phone with her into her room and shes in there with ben and hasnt said anything to me

[mart555]

This "discussion" will be at my house. I'm considering setting up chairs outside so if uBPDxw rages, my neighbors will hear it.

Yes! Definitely!  Well, only if you cannot get out of that useless meeting.   "You are ensuring social distancing" is what you can say when she doesn't really agree.  And I would be recording audio if legal in your state.. 

D16 is likely old enough to go decide to live with you...  no cop will force her to go back to her mom's place.  Well, it's unlikely.

[GaGrl]

Talk to your lawyer about an emergency order -- ex parte. Use your daughter's emails as the basis for the order. Her emotional and mental health is at stake.

By age 16, many children in difficult parenting situations "vote with their feet." That is, they choose to stay with one parent and walk away from the other living situation. This might be what your daughter needs to do, but your ex may continue to make that difficult unless you get a court order.

[Breakingfree9]

The problem is my divorce is filed in another state. I have an attorney working on getting it transferred to the state and county in which we currently reside.

I have a meeting set up with the psychologist I see for this afternoon. He has seen my xw.

I postponed our "discussion". I said I needed more time to think about it.

My biggest regret now is that I should have done something years ago. I, too, was avoiding the rage. While the pandemic is her excuse, I'm concerned a court or LCSW will see it as justification.

[livednlearned]

Your daughter's messages to you about broke my heart. What our kids go through with their BPD parents is truly heart breaking.

While the pandemic is her excuse, I'm concerned a court or LCSW will see it as justification.

I don't know, breakingfree...it could be with covid that your local courts and lawyers will be moving extra slowly, maybe your L gives you counsel to act assertively and then let the backlog work in D16's favor?

At a minimum, it sounds like your D needs to know that her connection with you won't be withheld as punishment while this plays out. Is there a way to get a cheap prepaid phone or something similar to her as a backup safety measure?

[ForeverDad]

How much time do you have with your daughter now?  What might happen if she decides to stay at your home and not go back, if she has the determination?  Have you thought about that?

What happened in my case is that when my ex missed an exchange and came for our son later (I think he was still in the early years of grade school) I refused and the officer pleaded with me to release my possession.  When I stood by my decision, knowing that the next day she'd get him from school anyway, the officer stepped back and said, "Fix this in court."  I'm sure he filed a report, of course, but nothing came of it.

Note that he didn't force the missed exchange, he tried to persuade and pressure but no more.  Police have the goal to defuse the immediate incident.  Without specific direction from court they eventually step back.

What do you think of your local circumstances, your daughter's choices and your choices?  Is "voting with her feet" practical?  Does she have the backbone to do it and stick with it?  Is there additional support with a counselor, children's agencies or even the school counselors?

I mentioned the above because we reasonably normal parents are so very compliant to the orders and rules that we can't even imagine taking such bold remedies.  Yet, ponder this, your ex doesn't have such compunctions, right?  Just saying...

Edit:  One factor is that you know that this in-person discussion will not turn out well.  Make sure your daughter, if present, can retreat inside when mother tries to drag her into it with intimidation, bullying, screaming, whatever.  So this 'discussion' should not be at an exchange where daughter is thereafter returning to mom's control.

Will you have a recorder running quietly in the background.  (Waving a recorder would be like waving a red cloth in a bull ring.)  If subject is brought up, phrase its use carefully so ex doesn't rant about being recorded.  Possibly have your position to be that you want to ensure you didn't do any poor behaviors, you're recording yourself, so if she happens to get recorded too, well...

[Breakingfree9]

I don't mean to answer a question with a question, but what do you think will happen if on Thursday D16 says, "I'm not going with you" to her mom? It's her mom's day (and weekend). xw will call the police. She'll rage. I don't know what the police will do.

I've asked my L and "voting with their feet" isn't a thing -- at least it certainly doesn't seem viable and defensible in court.

I'm postponing the discussion until I talk to my L. As you can imagine, when I say "I'll let you know" when  "when will you be able to meet?" it upsets her because she can't bully me into doing it.

The state in which I live is a 1-party state. I can record anything I want to record (and did during the divorce).

[mart555]

I've asked my L and "voting with their feet" isn't a thing -- at least it certainly doesn't seem viable and defensible in court.

What? They'll ignore her? They'd force her to go back even if she fears her mom?  That's nonsense... but not really surprising 

[ForeverDad]

Each state has its laws and policies.  Probably courts vary from county to county too.  We've had reports here of the older teens who voted with their feet, hey they can usually drive too.  I was raising the thought in case it was a viable option in your case.  At the very least within two years she'll be an adult, so now would be a good time to give her some room to make her transition as she nears adulthood.  Hmm, that might be a thought to use at some point, not sure when or where.  Good idea to find out what strategies and alternatives the lawyer considers feasible.

However, if your daughter isn't determined to choose an approach and commit to it, then best not to let her get involved in the decisions.

I was afraid your ex would time the 'discussion' so she would be driving away with daughter and able to do whatever the rest of the weekend.

If you don't know what the police would do, do you want to ask them a hypothetical?  The reality might turn out differently but at least you'd know more than you know now.  Just keep it simple and not too much information (TMI) and certainly not the concern D might waffle and bend to ex's demands.  Even the police can have loose lips.

[formflier]

What can be done with your L to "hurry up" getting the divorce transferred over to this state?

It would seem the discussion of school is really a proxy or cover for the entire custody situation.

Best,

FF

[Breakingfree9]

I was afraid your ex would time the 'discussion' so she would be driving away with daughter and able to do whatever the rest of the weekend.

Dang.
I hadn't thought of this. Thanks.

[formflier]

Right there is the value of posting on these boards...something to consider that you hadn't thought of before.


One thing to ask your wife.

Does D16's opinion matter or is this something for us to compromise on?   (yes..use those words)

Really...this is for parents...and it's a joint thing.  Make sure your language consistently reflects this.

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

I don't mean to answer a question with a question, but what do you think will happen if on Thursday D16 says, "I'm not going with you" to her mom? It's her mom's day (and weekend). xw will call the police. She'll rage. I don't know what the police will do.

I'm going to guess that officers cannot enforce a civil order (custody agreement) where you live, though your L will know best.

In my state cops can go to the home and do a well-check to make sure everyone is safe. More than likely, if she can't have D16 removed from your care, your ex would file an ex parte emergency order to have the issue heard before a judge. That just means there is an accelerated timetable for the judge to decide there's enough cause to allow D16 to stay with you while both sides sort things out and prepare for a more in-depth hearing.

It seems like you will need to decide whether this issue is standalone (does D16 do online school) or is it part of you getting full custody.

The tough part of this may be the display in court of D16's messages to you -- she is clearly communicating her severe stress, but courts can have a surprising threshold for what is considered abuse.

My son told me "n/BPDx wanted to borrow my baseball bat to beat you up" and that item landed in a court order much to my distress. You may recognize the dilemma - using your child's words to get them a safer outcome while worrying that those words will endanger your child if the court fails to act in their favor.

We were lucky -- visitation was reduced to 4 hours a day for two days a week, no overnights. It will be interesting what your L says is the best course forward for you and D16.

I'm postponing the discussion until I talk to my L. As you can imagine, when I say "I'll let you know" when  "when will you be able to meet?" it upsets her because she can't bully me into doing it.

She is probably hypersensitive to shifts in perceived control. It could be that small tweaks in communication will help things from escalating. "I'll let you know" probably makes her feel a lot of uncertainty therefore zero control. Whereas "I want to take the same amount of time and care thinking this important decision through. I'll need some time to get my thoughts straight. I looked at the official deadline and it's _______. I'll get back to you well before then and we can set up a time to discuss. Thanks for your patience."

It depends on where you're at in your own healing if you can write those types of responses...my L advised me to write my emails as though I were communicating with a coworker, and to assume everything I wrote would be read aloud in court.

When do you see D16 next?

[worriedStepmom]

I don't mean to answer a question with a question, but what do you think will happen if on Thursday D16 says, "I'm not going with you" to her mom? It's her mom's day (and weekend). xw will call the police. She'll rage. I don't know what the police will do.

I've asked my L and "voting with their feet" isn't a thing -- at least it certainly doesn't seem viable and defensible in court.

I'm postponing the discussion until I talk to my L. As you can imagine, when I say "I'll let you know" when  "when will you be able to meet?" it upsets her because she can't bully me into doing it.

The state in which I live is a 1-party state. I can record anything I want to record (and did during the divorce).

I'm glad you asked your L.  Be careful giving the kids control.  A friend has an ex with diagnosed NPD.  Mom brought oldest (12-13) to every exchange; oldest refused to go with dad.  Cops asked child why she didn't want to go, filed a report, left kid with mom.  Dad took mom to court for enforcement of the court order, and mom was sentenced to months in jail - judge said mom should have physically dragged child out of the car and driven away.  (After a night in jail they reached a compromise to let her out on probation)   At that point, mom started the "right" way - filing to modify the custody agreement. The kids got a GAL.  Teen no longer sees dad, with court's approval.

Last year, it took almost 5 months for our custody case to be transferred from one county to a neighboring county.  It might be worth seeing if you can file in old state for faster resolution of the case (if that's feasible).

[mart555]

Hmmm.. thinking out loud here.  If after confirming with the police (or lawyer) that they can't really force daughter to go back until a new court order is issued, what's the harm in letting the divorce drag in the other state?  She'll be 18 soon enough... 

This seems to be the approach that the GAL is taking in my case, they let the kids get older so their voice will be heard

[Breakingfree9]

Hmmm.. thinking out loud here.  If after confirming with the police (or lawyer) that they can't really force daughter to go back until a new court order is issued, what's the harm in letting the divorce drag in the other state?  She'll be 18 soon enough... 

This seems to be the approach that the GAL is taking in my case, they let the kids get older so their voice will be heard

We've been divorced for 12 years. We lived in State A when married, moved to State B, got a divorce in State B, as part of the divorce I allowed her to move back to State A, I followed 6 months later because there was no way I was living 1,500 miles away from my kid.  Very recently, I took action to have the file moved from State B to State A in anticipation of changing the custody agreement (and to enforce the $$ she owes me. I pay child support, she never reimburses me for her portion of healthcare costs).

I talked to my L yesterday. He's very process oriented -- so much so it's confusing to a non-attorney.
He's filing an emergency order today and taking the steps so the court will see D16's e-mail (and other correspondence), but they will not be part of public record.
I did not tell D16 about my attorney. Yet, D16 overheard her mom talking about getting an attorney for this school election. I know it's just talk. The divorce isn't filed here.

I want to be clear. While the "discussion" of the school election was the reason for this original post, I didn't bring in an attorney for the "discussion". I brought in an attorney to shield D16 from the emotional abuse illustrated above in her e-mail. I know emotional abuse is a high bar to clear.

[mart555]

I did not tell D16 about my attorney. Yet, D16 overheard her mom talking about getting an attorney for this school election. I know it's just talk. The divorce isn't filed here.
...
I brought in an attorney to shield D16 from the emotional abuse illustrated above in her e-mail. I know emotional abuse is a high bar to clear.

Might be a high bar to clear but your daughter is 16.  Just make sure you are there for her. Not coach her, but she needs to know that you are there for her and trying to make sure people listen to her.

[livednlearned]

I know emotional abuse is a high bar to clear.

Does your daughter have a counselor she talks to?

[Breakingfree9]

Does your daughter have a counselor she talks to?

Yes, she does. I e-mailed the counselor with the information above. She has not responded...not that I expected her to. The counseling sessions SEEM to be helpful. D16 seems at peace and happy afterward. We don't talk about it much. I simply ask "Do you think they are helping?" (since I'm paying 100% of the costs). D16 says they are.

A friend said, "getting a lawyer is going to cost you." I responded, "the real cost is to D16 if I do nothing."

[worriedStepmom]

My husband and I call the expense of the now-annual trips to court "the SD13 tax".  It's the price we pay to protect SD.

[livednlearned]

A friend said, "getting a lawyer is going to cost you." I responded, "the real cost is to D16 if I do nothing."

Amen to that. The small fortune I put into four years of legal fees set me back decades.

The upside is that, at 19, I can see how much that expense and effort paid off for my son.

I really hope the stars line up for you on this next go-round with lawyers and courts. Your D16 is lucky to have you advocating for her.

[ForeverDad]

One of the benefits of becoming more informed and more educated about BPD, the behavior patterns, etc, is that you are better able to handle surprises.  The great variety of responses here are so helpful.  Some may not apply to your case, and others are spot on.  That's the benefit of having support from many sources, trusted friends and family, experienced proactive lawyer, counselors or therapists... and peer support such as here.

Every once in a while you'll notice that previously you would have been caught off guard and pressured into agreeing with things you knew went against your wishes.  But now you know how to listen, take time to ponder the implications - despite the demands for instant compliance - and come up with a better response than before.

[Breakingfree9]

Now, she won't discuss in person or over the phone (wise, perhaps). She wants to do it through e-mail. I received a 638 word e-mail at 2:34 a.m. (I go to bed at 9:45 most nights...perhaps another reason we aren't married LOL)
I have a response written. It's short and to the point. One thing she said is that she's polled many families. I asked her for names so I may follow-up and ask myself.

Here are two excerpts
Her words are in brackets.

[it seems reasonable to err on the side of caution and opt for Remote Learning for a semester to keep D16 as safe as possible from contracting this unpredictable virus. The sucky reality is, if you choose the In-person option, then the consequences—no matter how catastrophic—will be on you.]

Wow

[ I don’t want to belabor this with details right now, but I have some thoughts and would like to brainstorm ways her social life could be bolstered while attending school remotely. ]

WTH do two 54+ year olds know about bolstering a teenager's social life? Remember, she also told D16 if D16 isn't nice to her, she'd take her phone away then she wouldn't be able to socialize.