Again

[kells76]

Remember how the kids' mom didn't want them to come over back in March/April, because she believed they "might" have the virus, so Mom's house was going to self quarantine for 2 weeks, and if we didn't do the same, we couldn't see the kids? I do  

We have plans to see DH's parents & sister in a few weeks, and we plan to fly. The kids have known about this for at least a month. Driving would verge on absurd (12 hour trip) but not impossible (it's been done, but we and the kids all hated it, and we talked about "next time we go see them, we're going to fly"). His sister has a health syndrome and her health has taken a downturn between when we got the tickets and now, so there is an extra layer of "maybe we really need to go see her, we don't know how much time she has left". She might get better... but it's just not clear.

Yesterday SD14 told us she doesn't want to go because she doesn't think it's safe to be in an international airport. A little digging and it turns out that there is this family they are friends with at Mom's house, and the family is moving overseas at the end of August. SD14 believes that if she (and SD12) go with us, they "have to" self quarantine afterwards, and will not get to see their friends before they move. It sounds like the parents in that family "can't take any chances with getting sick before moving".

DH asked if it seems like a "lose lose" situation and SD14 said yes. SD14 said "she just needs a week to think about it", though I'm fairly certain it'll be a No from her. These family friends are Mom/Stepdad's very close friends.

She did get teary eyed asking about DH's sister, and asked "how sick is she". We said "she's not doing great, and that's one of the reasons for traveling to see her". SD14 said she was worried that if she didn't go with us, she might not see her again. I asked if she was worried about making DH's sister sick, but she said No (we have talked openly about "I asked if Sister In Law could get an organ transplant, but she isn't a candidate because her immune system is really low right now" type stuff).

I asked SD14 "What information do you want to have as you think about what to do?" She was quiet for a long time and said she didn't know. DH said he was concerned that it seemed like she was only listening to one side of info, and wasn't open to other info that was different. She insisted that she had looked at both sides, but it "seemed safer" not to go. I asked if she was up for talking about some details or wanted to take a break. She wanted to take a break.

She said she didn't want to disappoint DH. DH said that if she didn't go, he would feel sad and disappointed, but about the situation, not in her as a person. He said he thought she was doing the best she could. He asked if she felt heard and understood, and she said Yes.

...

DH is angry and sad. I'm frustrated because it's clear that Mom is abdicating her responsibility and placing this choice on the kids. If it's that dangerous, why doesn't she say they can't travel? But crickets from Mom, and she's created this lose lose scenario, either explicitly or possibly tacitly: "Oh sure, you can do whatever you want. I would NEVER stop you from seeing your aunt, I love her. But if you go with Dad, you can't see our best family friends before they move internationally forever."

This is the constant trap she makes for the kids: "If you go with Dad, SOMEBODY will get hurt". Whether Mom, emotionally, or friends, because the kids will CERTAINLY get infected and pass it on. And it's the kids' responsibility to make sure that ADULTS don't get sick.

Also, there is a long history of Mom/Stepdad LOATHING DH's parents. They've referred to them as "those people". Although they would profess their "total love" for Sister In Law (with the health syndrome).

...

So this is a covert manipulative trap, where Mom is trying to either have DH be the "bad guy" who takes responsibility for decisions (which would be better for SD14, because it would take the decision off of her shoulders) but at the cost of the kids' relationship to his family, or put all the responsibility on SD14, and have SD14 both cave to Mom's emotional manipulation and experience DH not helping her.

I talked DH down a bit last night and said it would be best if he could get to baseline, be there for SD14 (who stayed the night), not let the anger get in the way, and he and I would strategize tonight.

So the big picture is we need to take this burden off of SD14 (and SD12). Of course she's crying and teary -- she can't recognize that an adult burden has been placed on her. Mom/Stepdad aren't going to do anything for her. It's up to DH and me.

Here are some practical options I am thinking of:

*DH and I fly anyway, and let the kids know we are so sorry they are missing out.

*DH and I switch tickets to a later date -- right after friends move -- but I'm concerned that gives Mom more time to scheme.

*DH and I cancel tickets (the airline has a 100% refund, yay) and we drive

Here are some "dealing with the manipulative triangle" options I am thinking of:

*Ask SD14 who she would like to help come up with a "win win" idea. That would open a door for her to say "Well, I want Friends to help figure something out" or "I want Mom to help come up with something" or... she says "I don't know" or "Nobody can help, it's impossible" which would at least be information

*Write a letter to SD14: "I'm sorry you're in this position. I wish you felt free and supported to see all the people in your life who you love". Maybe more? IDK if she's ready to "hear it straight". I wish I could say "Have you ever wondered why so many of the times you are scheduled to be with Dad feel like lose lose times?"

*Ask SD14: "Does it feel like the only people who can make this decision are you and Dad? Is anyone else making this decision?"

...

We got out of the last "you can't see the kids because of the virus" by inundating Mom with CDC info, and luckily they came out with "yes you can be with your family, and work, even if you think you were exposed to the virus" right before DH's parenting time. We played it as "Wow, what a relief, please show this to the kids before I come over tomorrow, because I KNOW you don't want them to be worried". I don't know if that is an option this time, because this isn't a conflict about facts or information.

I'm really sick of the manipulations.

...

Edit, not that facts have any bearing here  , but neither our state nor DH's family's state have exec orders or requirements about out of state travel or post travel quarantine between these two states. Basically it's "wear a mask and stay home if you are sick" -- nothing more.

[worriedStepmom]

I think DH is also abdicating responsibility/pushing it onto the kids.

mom puts the kids into uncomfortable triangles to force the kids to decide that they don't want to be with DH.  DH allows the kids to make those decisions.

I know this is a long-standing pattern in the family that might be really hard to change. 

Our kids don't get a choice.  Court order says you're with parent A?  You will be with parent A.   Parent B is planning a trip that you don't want to go on?  Tough luck, it's parent B's time and you are going (had that conversation with S11 multiple times this year).

Your H's court order may not be so detailed.  It may not be as easy to set boundaries and enforce them in court if necessary.  But it's important to be aware of his role in this triangle, and in parentifying the girls.

[kells76]

mom puts the kids into uncomfortable triangles to force the kids to decide that they don't want to be with DH.  DH allows the kids to make those decisions. I know this is a long-standing pattern in the family that might be really hard to change.

Yeah, I know. It kind of feels like we've been regressing over the past couple of years back to the "bad times". DH & SD14 did start counseling again but it's only one session in.

So how do we navigate being assertive, when there is a punishment hanging over the kids if we "dare" to "make them" spend time with us? Punishment being "Dad made it so I couldn't say goodbye to my friends".

I mean, I guess I can picture us showing up to pick up the kids for the plane trip, saying "This is happening", and Mom not physically stopping the kids, but the emotional punishment -- I struggle to figure out how to deal with that.

Do we just say "You know what, Mom and Stepdad and Friend's Parents are adults. I have every confidence they will find a way for you to see each other before they move, no matter how we travel to see Sister In Law."

[worriedStepmom]

Do we just say "You know what, Mom and Stepdad and Friend's Parents are adults. I have every confidence they will find a way for you to see each other before they move, no matter how we travel to see Sister In Law."

I think this is perfect, and it puts the onus back on Mom and Stepdad.

I'd start with an apology to her - "I'm sorry that I put all this stress on you.  That was wrong.  It's the adults' job to figure out the logistics of all of this stuff so that you and your sister don't get put in the middle.  I always value your opinion, but we're not going to put the final decision for this kind of stuff on your shoulders anymore."  and then segue into your comment, and add "if Friend's parents would like to know what safety measures we're planning to take, I'd be happy to send them the details."

You aren't asking for permission from mom, stepdad, Friend's parents,or SD.  You're putting the onus back on the ones making it difficult, and you are volunteering to share information with them - but not take orders from them.  Those people aren't in charge of your family unit, no matter how much they'd like to be.

In the past (or now), do you think that SD and H's relationship gets better or worse when he takes more firm control like this? 

[livednlearned]

If you took away all the dynamics, parentifying, covert moves, etc., it seems like it's a duty over desire kind of thing.

It's duty to prioritize the life of someone who may not have much time left.

It's desire to spend time with friends (that they can still interact with from afar).

My son has a rather extreme aversion to anything perceived as a demand (an ASD thing in all likelihood) so I have had to learn how to create opportunities for collaboration without giving away my role as parent. It's exhausting, honestly. But it has helped me slowly get better at figuring out where to cede authority as a parent, and how to communicate in a way that gives him plenty of choices and respect for how he wants to deal with any obstacles.

I make a decision that ____ is happening.
Then I communicate that decision, and describe it the way I see it. In real, authentic terms.
Then -- you are good at this kells76 -- I ask whether my perspective makes sense (this is usually when I get some kind of short-sighted but valid counter argument, often with strong emotion ... )
And last, I offer some options for how to mitigate risks, sacrifices, double binds, etc.

That's where the choice/autonomy comes in. Not in the major decision, but in how the decision will be carried out.
 

[kells76]

Does SD & H's relationship get better or worse when he takes the wheel? I don't remember, and I don't know if that's because it rarely happens or I just can't remember an example.

DH & I are talking about this later tonight. Please let me know if you have more thoughts on this -- anything is helpful.

[ForeverDad]

Sounds like "Well, if we don't fly then we'll drive.  We are still going."  This way your trip isn't sabotaged - as much.

Yeah, driving 12 hours is tough but that's the alternative left unless H tells SD what the reality is.  Flying versus canceling/delaying are not the only options IMO.

Until this year where I've had health issues I would always drive 24+ hours to get to the Rocky Mountains.  I didn't fly because then once I got there I couldn't rent the kind of vehicle I wanted, and the costs for renting anything in Denver area were prohibitive.  It can be done.

[GaGrl]

Sounds like "Well, if we don't fly then we'll drive.  We are still going."  This way your trip isn't sabotaged - as much.

Yeah, driving 12 hours is tough but that's the alternative left unless H tells SD what the reality is.  Flying versus canceling/delaying are not the only options IMO.

Until this year where I've had health issues I would always drive 24+ hours to get to the Rocky Mountains.  I didn't fly because then once I got there I couldn't rent the kind of vehicle I wanted, and the costs for renting anything in Denver area were prohibitive.  It can be done.

I agree. Sounds like driving is he answer. We have to drive 11 hours to see our daughter/granddaughter -- only other option is a flight with one stopover, and I'm just not willing to do that.

So...we're driving, followed by "I trust that Mom/Stepdad can work out a way for you to honor your friendship before they leave." I

Sound reasonable?

[kells76]

FD & GaGrl, I think if this email doesn't "move the needle", I'll suggest we switch to driving. It would take Mom agreeing on another vacation day for us (current plan is to fit flight into a typical 3 day weekend), but hey, if she wants to push things there, whatever.

...

So this is essentially what DH sent last night at 7pm after he and I talked:

Hi Kids' Mom, hope you guys are staying cool;

Sounds like SD12 & SD14 would love to see Friends off when they move at the end of the month. Our original plan for Aug ZZ-ZZ was to fly up to Location, as Sister In Law is doing poorly and it’s important that the kids share this time with her. We can do a little flexibility with dates so that if you want the kids to quarantine when they get back, you guys can do so and still bid them farewell.

Our options are:
Aug XX-XX
Aug YY-YY
Sep XX-XX
Sep YY-YY

Please let me know by 7pm tomorrow (31st) what works the best with your schedule — if I don’t hear back, I’ll assume you’ve worked out any kinks with the Aug ZZ-ZZ plan, and I’ll let kiddos know. I know it’s short notice, and I appreciate your quick reply in case I need to cancel tickets.

Thanks for helping the kids see family and friends!

Best;

DH

The Aug XX dates are ours, while the Aug YY dates include one of Mom's days. The Sep XX and YY dates are Mom's. We'll see what she does.

...

The kids are getting passports and today is the appt, so DH has to sit with Mom & do all that stuff with the kids and her, after sending this email. I gave him some "neutral" phrases to remember, because her MO is to intensely insist on "figuring stuff out" or "deciding" verbally right that instant. I suggested the formflier move of "wow... this seems really important. Let me think about it when I'm at my best... I'll email you by tomorrow" type stuff. Also suggested he bring a notepad and pen, so if she goes off on "we have to do this, this, and this, and that doesn't work, blah blah blah" he can slow the velocity by pulling out the notepad and saying "hold on... let me make sure I've got this down. You want to do X? OK, let me write that down. Was Y correct? Did I get that?" etc.

He wants me there but it's during work. Not sure what I'll do yet.

...

WSM, thinking more about the family dynamic, DH sees himself as trying to work against the narrative about him coming from Mom/Stepdad -- that DH is selfish and self-centered, doesn't listen to the kids, doesn't care about what they want, etc. Because of that long-standing narrative, more "traditional" moves of "Hey... I have to do what the court order says, or the judge will be mad at me" haven't been effective. The covert manipulation is really, really strong and insidious. So, overt authoritativeness tends to backfire.

I think we are trying to do a more "collaborative problem solving" / "propose win-win to replace lose-lose" approach. I guess the one "authoritative" aspect would be that DH and I aren't cancelling US going, no matter what. So, at least the kids see that what they "want" to do doesn't impact what DH and I personally do. We aren't cancelling the trip... it would just be sad if the kids don't go. And DH can at least have the ability to tell the kids "I did everything I could to help you do both the things you wanted, because I heard you tell me how much your friends mean to you, and I care about that."

...

DH is concerned because a couple of days ago SD said she wanted a week to think about it, and then here he is sending this email. He did send the kids a heads up text, I think it was something like "Hey, good news, I think I have some ideas to make the trip and seeing your friends work, can't wait to see you" or something. He thinks she might get upset that he moved forward during this time. We talked about ways to say "Hey, I heard how much it would mean to you to see your friends before they left. Even though I hadn't thought of it when we last talked, I got an insight afterwards, and am hoping to make it happen for you. Keep thinking about it, though!"

...

No email back from Mom yet.

[ForeverDad]

So, at least the kids see that what they "want" to do doesn't impact what DH and I personally do. We aren't cancelling the trip... it would just be sad if the kids don't go.

Try your best not to let the kids and Ex see your "we will go even if the kids don't go" thoughts.  Otherwise Ex will aim to sabotage through that opening.  You know that.  For success it needs to stick to "This is what will happen, the only alternatives are the dates.  Period."

If driving takes an extra day, then don't fret it.  Obviously the saboteurs won't let you leave early.  So leave at the start of your time.  If you get back a day or two late, oops, well, once the kids are with you and on the trip, nothing the Ex can physically do about when you come back.  Sure, might be a complaint you didn't get back in time.  Maybe a report with the police?  Big whoopdeedoo.  Once that becomes apparent, then promise to give them equivalent time.

The kids are getting passports?  Well, then tell SD that missing seeing her friend is not "gone for forever", maybe next year or some future date you all can travel to friend's new country?

[kells76]

I guess I should add that a layer over all of this is the hardcore commitment at Mom's to "corona is deadly, you can't be too careful, and it's YOUR responsibility (kids) if you get someone sick from what you do". So... that's not exactly "the problem" that is ostensibly "the problem" that we're trying to solve, so we'll see if offering these other dates gets us a "yes, but..." response -- which would indicate that the issue isn't REALLY that the friends are moving, it's that the kids can't go against the narrative at Mom's -- corona makes people sick and it's your fault if me or Stepdad gets sick or if you make someone else sick.

Edit: and yeah, good call on not "showing our hand" on going even without the kids. I think maybe the posture is a firm outside with a flexible inside: day of trip, we show up at Mom's to pick up kids & say "we're heading out and need to go in X minutes, get some stuff packed and we're off". And then we go with or without the kids on that day.

[kells76]

OK discussion w/ kids last night about trip. Told them we're willing to be flexible, because we hear how they want to see their friends and their aunt. We care about them and so are willing to not fly, and to change dates.

Talked through some different options like taking the train, socializing outdoors or not in restaurants, etc. Asked if there were any other concerns they had, even intangible ones, and they said no.

Can't get a refund on airplane tix, but can apply $ to future flights, so that's OK-ish, but then no $ for taking the train. Haven't told them yet, but it's not looking great for all 4 of us to go any more. If SIL gets worse, then at minimum DH and I are going however we see fit. I'm just hoping the kids can walk away from this feeling like DH and I are willing to work with them.

All that being said...

Kids are with Mom this weekend. Guess what they're going to be doing. Prize to whoever gets it right.

[ForeverDad]

Coming up with a reason or an excuse why train travel is too dangerous.

[kells76]

Ugh, probably... Oh well, we'll just bike there! Only 300+ miles... Good thing Mom will be so supportive she'll give us some of her time!

But yes, in addition to probably coming up with more excuses, guess what they are actually doing. In all seriousness. I mean... Imagine you just shared your concerns about covid infection with the other parent. What would you then take the kids to do?

[ForeverDad]

March in a protest/riot?
Go to a local amusement park?
Attend a block, beach, anniversary or birthday party?

[I Am Redeemed]

Getting tested for covid?

Or- going to visit Mom or Step Dad's family?

[kells76]

ForeverDad wins the prize of three emojis!

    

They did in fact march in a protest. But "it's different because they will social distance".

[I Am Redeemed]

ForeverDad wins the prize of three emojis!

    

They did in fact march in a protest. But "it's different because they will social distance".

yeah...right... cause everyone at protests has been social distancing

[kells76]

Although we certainly have our viewpoint differences, it's not even that this time. Well, sort of, but not really. It's the blatant "rules for you but not for us" mentality that is "making me mad" (I know, it's not them making me mad, it's me being mad because of something inside of me, but you get the idea).

Saw newspaper photos from the event -- nobody in the photos was social distancing.

I'm tempted to describe our trip to see family as a protest rally. Can't say no to that!

I'm also tempted to tell the kids that the train is not going to work and so the trip, while still "on", is TBA. They don't need to know that it's not in the budget (because you can't return this kind of plane ticket) but if they ask, I mean, yeah, that is why we're not going at the moment. But I don't want them to feel guilty. So much of this is bigger manipulations they don't understand.

But after them going to the rally... It's kind of like, the airports and airplanes are going to be cleaner, with more masks and more distancing. So there is a part of me that does want the kids to take responsibility for what they are saying. If you say you are worried about social distancing, and then choose to do an activity with no social distancing, help me out, I'm confused.

There is a small but growing part of me that worries that Mom will push the kids to make... IDK, to make some kind of more serious assertions about DH's family. Not just "I'm worried about social distancing from them" but "I feel unsafe with them because of something that happened that I never told you about". I would hope Mom would not do that but I think the level of venom and hatred she and Stepdad have for DH's folks is pretty deep. I think they both project their past experiences with the church and Christianity onto DH's folks and that is a big reason why the kids "can't" want to go -- because if they enjoy being with DH's folks, it means they're not on mom & Stepdad's team.

We'll see what happens.

The sick and wrong part of me wants Mom & Stepdad to get the virus from this march. Bad kells76. But I do.

[I Am Redeemed]

I understand your frustrations. It's a double standard, and that was a hallmark of my ex's behavior, so I absolutely hate when people do that. I think it's hypocritical and it's utterly annoying.

Getting covid would be an ironic consequence for their behavior. I can see how you could entertain thoughts of that. The petty part of me thought that it would be satisfying to insist the kids quarantine after the protest so I get it. Their attempts to manipulate and meddle in your parenting time are exhausting.

[ForeverDad]

So how would a family court - if it got that far - view one parent taking the kids to a protest versus the other parent taking the kids on a plane trip to see family?  Isn't a protest march as typically seen on the news very unorganized mayhem as to whether attendees are ill or healthy, versus an airport or airline which are much more organized and monitoring people's health status?

With what just happened, doesn't your H have a virtual green light to rebook tickets again for a flight?  Sure, the other family will claim otherwise, but if a court had to rule on it I would hope it would see flights as less dangerous (or at least no more dangerous) healthwise than an unregulated protest march.

[ForeverDad]

Here a link to a study concluding that children aren't generally as susceptible to infection by the COVID-109 virus because children usually have fewer ACE2 receptors, the avenue the virus uses to invade the body.
https://www.mountsinai.org/about/newsroom/2020/mount-sinai-researchers-why-covid19-may-be-less-common-in-children-than-adults

[kells76]

It's hard to say this, but it feels like while we have all our ducks in a row in terms of the logistics now (i.e., Mom/Stepdad don't have a leg to stand on re: safety), the core issue is DH's fear that he will lose the relationship with SD14 (and SD12, though perhaps less fear there) if he doesn't demonstrate by his actions that he has heard how they feel. I think he sees the relationship as in a precarious place, where even though all the facts are on our side, he feels held hostage by the fear that SD14 won't trust him if he makes a "wrong" move.

[ForeverDad]

Her mother decided it was okay for the kids to join a protest.  Her father had previously decided it was okay for the kids to fly to see family.  If mother's decision is okay, then what's wrong with dad's initial decision?

Dad is playing defense, mother is playing offense, and moving the goal posts as well.  In competitive games such as baseball, football, soccer, which team wins?

I'm not saying dad can't play defense and be cautious but it goes only so far before it becomes passive strategizing.  Early in my separation and divorce I was overly cautious, glad I didn't get arrested for her allegations.  In time I felt secure enough that I said, forget it, now I'm going to do what I decide.  My disclaimer is that I didn't have a son who was manipulated or overly influenced by his mother.

[kells76]

Her mother decided it was okay for the kids to join a protest.  Her father had previously decided it was okay for the kids to fly to see family.  If mother's decision is okay, then what's wrong with dad's initial decision?

Yeah, I'm with you on this -- I feel like if she tries to argue by email, I'd probably just send her a newspaper article about the rally.

Dad is playing defense, mother is playing offense, and moving the goal posts as well.

Right. I've definitely felt on the defensive for this interaction. Last time she squawked about covid, we had a lot of CDC guidelines we sent back, with a posture of "what is there even to disagree about, we're picking up the kids". It feels like she upped the game on this one -- it all feels so toxic and convoluted and manipulative.

In time I felt secure enough that I said, forget it, now I'm going to do what I decide.  My disclaimer is that I didn't have a son who was manipulated or overly influenced by his mother.

And that's the core of it -- the kids are so deeply manipulated by Mom/Stepdad at the flip of a switch. It just feels so precarious and I don't know what I'm missing or not seeing or not doing. We're at the start of the relationship with the new T and so it doesn't feel like there is a solid neutral space for DH and SD14 yet to hash out "sometimes I decide things that you don't like and are mad about, and you still have to do them". She's back to being overempowered and like WSM said, yes DH and I do contribute. I'm struggling with what to do in my role as stepmom to stop that. I feel like I can "try to convinve DH to do something different" or...?