manage the unmanageable; she's cheating, I can't leave

[EyesUp]

As the reality of my wife's behavior has been sinking in, I've run through the full range of emotions from gut punch to lucidity. It's been a big help to read about others' experiences.

My question is for the BPD survivors - what are the "success" stories, if there is such a thing?

I fear that if I directly confront my wife, it will inevitably deteriorate into an unrecoverable situation.  If I disrupt her affair, she will have guilt, depression - and channel all that back to me.

What are some strategies to guide her, or influencer her, to end it on her own?

I recognize the very real possibility that she's doing this to feel good and/or to get caught and have her worst fears validated.  The truth is that I am prepared to stand by her and attempt to forge a path forward, but I'm not sure if she'll believe this or accept it.  Which brings me back to the risk of confrontation.

For the past week, I've been on a charm offensive - offering validation, etc.  Not a single argument or conflict for a week.  Lots of discussion about shared memories, and future plans.

This site has been like an owner's manual for understanding a BPD spouse, I wish I had understood the way I contribute to her negative responses years ago (therapists - zero help).  That's not to say I blame myself, only that I can finally understand what's happening.

Worst case, I need time to get finances in order - could be 12-18 months, as I have nowhere to go and no funds. The fact is that I have a significant income, but I've absorbed a ton of debt since she quit her last job 2 years ago. I've spoken with lawyers and we've run alimony/child support scenarios - a divorce would likely mean that she keeps the house, but can't afford it, our kids would face massive disruption.  Our negative net worth would further complicate matters. There are a lot of resources out there for women, what are men supposed to do?

Current feeling is that my best option is to try to make her feel like a million bucks until I have my ducks in a row.  But maybe that's denial and/or avoidance talking.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[once removed]

My question is for the BPD survivors - what are the "success" stories, if there is such a thing?

there is a success stories thread pinned near the top of the board.

the "success" stories for infidelity are fewer.

its a real challenge youre up against. not an impossible one. but a hard road. go into it with eyes wide open. know your limits.

I fear that if I directly confront my wife, it will inevitably deteriorate into an unrecoverable situation.  If I disrupt her affair, she will have guilt, depression - and channel all that back to me.

What are some strategies to guide her, or influencer her, to end it on her own?

the really difficult answer is that youre probably right on both fronts, and that there is no simple answer when it comes to influencing this.

but if you are looking for advice: keep doing what youre doing, but additionally, romance her.

affairs are about escape. romance is about fantasy, and in a consensual, adult, real relationship, romance (intimacy) is the essential part of a relationship that women will say is lacking in their relationship. i think from the sound of it, youre in the process of establishing the intimacy part...sex is part of that..a validating home environment is part of that...romance is another.

it is not a silver bullet to the emotional turmoil you are going through, but "showing her a good time", and connecting on another level will go a very long way.

[pursuingJoy]

EyesUp, I admire your ability to consider all of the options. Agree with you and once removed that these scenarios are possible. I'm a second vote for romancing, in a genuine way, for the purpose of building intimacy and trust. Shoring up your foundation may even pave the way for you to bring all of this into the light, discuss it, and recover in relative safety rather than in a storm.

Definitely check out the success stories here and remember that most of us are posting in a moment of crisis. I'm way less likely to post after a great few days than after a big fight.

I can share a bit of my own success. There were a few points last year where I didn't think we were going to make it. I have now learned healthy and unhealthy ways to respond. I am pleasantly surprised at the difference it's made in our marriage, but it's not just that - I feel better. 

Learning about the disorder helped me take things less personally. When the dysregulation happens, it doesn't hurt me, so I don't feel compelled to fix it or withdraw. I got back in touch with my core and spent time thinking about what really mattered to me. I am able to identify what to let go, what to set firm boundaries around, and how to set the boundaries. As far as self-awareness, you're way ahead of where I was when I found bpdfamily.   

The hardest part for me was accepting that I couldn't control my husband. I can't change him. He is different today than when we married, and who he chooses to be is up to him. He is responsible for his own mental health. He is responsible for self-soothing and dealing with his wounds from his mom. I have to release all of that.

Check in with yourself, what you're feeling. You'll most likely cycle through a wide range of emotions. What parts are yours, what parts are hers? Are you different than you were five years ago? Why?

[EyesUp]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

I'm preparing for the confrontation and I can sense that her defenses are already up.

She has ignored gifts (flowers, shopping), and attempted to provoke arguments - certainly to justify her actions and avoid guilt and shame.

I know that confronting the infidelity will instantly make me the one who is introducing guilt and shame.  I've received a lot of good advice re: stay calm, stick to facts, offer assurance, avoid threats.

At this point I'm mainly concerned about two things:

The first is anticipating the crazy so I can at least attempt to avoid a nuclear explosion.

The second is that part of the cheating behavior is super high risk, which suggests to me that there is something else going on here.  Last night, my wife attended a book group with friends - mostly moms of our youngest daughter.  The host is both the mom of our daughter's friend, and the wife of the guy my wife is having an affair with.  She messaged him ahead of time to ask him to sit next to her, and to put his hand up her skirt with others present. 

I guess she needs extra risk to feel something?  But does this indicate something else about her state of mind? 

We live in a small town, this is needlessly risky behavior, and it's a transgression against me as well as our kids - and her friend, the other mom.

What else do I need to consider here?

[pursuingJoy]

EyesUp, her behavior also strikes me as self-destructive. Do you think she wants to get caught?

[EyesUp]

EyesUp, her behavior also strikes me as self-destructive. Do you think she wants to get caught?

Yes, possibly.

We had a productive discussion this AM in which she was perfectly accessible, only defensive in a few specific moments.  I'm learning her triggers thanks what I've learned here and elsewhere. 

Hard to say if her emptiness and pain has been so severe that she's doing risky stuff just to feel something, or as an excuse to end the marriage, or as the ultimate abandonment test, or something else - maybe a combination.

I've let her know that I suspect something, but stopped short of making a direct accusation or confrontation.  The first time she laughed it off, the second time she categorically denied it, the third time she stated "well, we are still having sex" (true story - yikes!), and today she just listened and asked "why do you think that?"

I replied that she's demonstrating all the classic signs:
- changed appearance/dress
- constantly checking phone
- trying new drinks, drinking more
- not available / accessible - seeking more alone time

She mostly just listened, but choked up a bit (which gives me hope beyond hope that she merely has BPD behaviors and not full blown BPD - possible?), and only once started to explode with defensiveness - about the phone.

I noted that we've flipped - she always used to tell me "no phones at the dinner table" which I internalized, but now she's always checking her phone at dinner - to which she replied "are you saying I'm not a good mother and don't always have dinner ready" - rope-a-dope.  I diffused it, but there it is.  Not even sure she was trying to conceal her behavior, I think she genuinely heard "problem at dinner" vs. understanding the context of the comment.  This is where she is BPD-ish.

We spoke for almost 45 mins without raised voices, and she both listened and shared her concerns about me as well.

Hard to say if I'm in denial or have some misplaced optimism.

[pursuingJoy]

I don't think it's denial or misplaced optimism. I see the same good signs in this morning's conversation that you do.

The conversation you had this morning could be a sign that things are headed in a better direction, and I'm so glad the tools are helping. I trust your intuition, so I'm not even sure why I feel compelled to bring up this practical caution: the things that brought her to this point didn't happen overnight, and they won't go away overnight, no matter how much you shift your approach.

BPD is on a spectrum, and it's often hard to tell where people fall. You may experience a push/pull dynamic. Sometimes when they feel close, they'll push out of fear of engulfment.

Was this in counseling or at home? I know counseling was happening soon, right?

[EyesUp]

thanks for the reinforcement.

first day of counseling is tomorrow, this was part of our "prep" talk, and it occurred on the phone while she was en route to an annual mammogram that typically causes significant stress (she's fine, as usual).

[EyesUp]

I'd appreciate any insight re: high risk / self-destructive behavior.

This isn't just about me, it's also about our daughter(s).

This implies a more general issue, not limited to our marriage.

Are there any precautions or considerations I should take before a confrontation?

[Brooklyn1974]

I know there are others that are better suited to answer your question but my wife in the past cheated on me twice.  She was drunk when she told me about it.  Looking back there were red flags.

She apologized for it but that was it.  When I asked her why her reply was 'for the thrill of it'.  Of course I was devastated and it doesn't give me much comfort for her to not do it again.  She blamed it on the drinking but you know as well as I do even when drunk you are still capable of making decisions and the one wasn't a one night stand either.

Every time afterwards I would bring it up, she would get extremely defensive and not want to talk about it.  Guess she couldn't handle the shame, who knows..

I don't know how your wife is going to react but you seem more concerned about her reaction than your own feelings towards this.  Is this something you can continue to tolerate?  Personally in my situation it has turned me into being resentful towards her at times and the way I dealt with it was to ignore her.  Ignoring my wife is probably the worst thing you could do however it was the only way I could stop myself from getting upset in front of her, especially since she shut me down when I did want to talk about it.

Part of me feels like it doesn't matter why she did it, that it's done and she's capable of doing it again.  It hit the foundation of our relationship and she doesn't seem to care.

What concerns me is that your wife is lying to you about this and when confronted with the evidence only you can probably answer that.  Do you think you can set boundaries/limits? 

[EyesUp]

The confrontation unfolded last night.

We planned to talk prior to our first therapy meeting today, and the discussion unfolded.

She commented that she perceives some changes in me...  midlife crisis?  Early onset dementia?  I countered that the changes might be in her.   I calmly reiterated all the changes:
- dress
- confidence
- trying new drinks
- asking for time alone
- constantly checking her phone

I assured her that I'm not leaving, I don't want a divorce, and I'm prepared to work it out.  

She choked up, basically acknowledged that my suspicions were true - but stopped short of an actual confession or admission, it was about body language and an unspoken acknowledgement.

It quickly turned into "why can't I be the one that gets to feel good?" and "why am I the bad guy?" and I found myself in the compromised position...   I told her that it's not my goal to pour on guilt or shame, and that she will need to process it - and I will support her - and that I'd like to work on finding a way to bring back the good vibes in our relationship so that she doesn't need to look outside.

I also emphasized some of the practical concerns about living in a small town, and the importance of managing the situation before it becomes a full blown addiction or worse - which she acknowledged.

Overall, except for the fact that she was not completely forthcoming, attempted to play it off as an emotional affair first (I had to confront her with some evidence of the other stuff), I thought it went better than expected - no shouting, no fighting.

This AM I asked about how she intends to break it off, and again she was a bit defensive, but ultimately acknowledged what's needed to move forward.   She said some kind things, she also does not want a divorce, actually thanked me (haven't heard any kind of thank you from her in ages).  She knew the relationship wasn't going anywhere - she's 46, he's 32.  I think I committed a foul when I tried to give her a boost of sorts and said "you bagged a young stud, good for you".  I think my wife isn't afraid of abandonment as much as rejection, and I have no doubt that this whole thing, while toxic to our relationship, has been good for her self esteem (at least in one way).

I know I need to set some expectations in more explicit terms about how we move forward.

The tricky part is that our kids are friends and in school together, all the moms hang out, my wife and the wife of her boytoy are in a book club together.  It's a small town, and I don't think it's possible for my wife to completely exit the relationship - this guy is going to be around.  We're not moving and neither are they, so the "cold turkey" approach is difficult at best.

I slept slightly better last night for the first time in a while, but this AM I see a long road ahead.

What else do I need to look for?

[EyesUp]

Our second couples therapy session is tomorrow, it will be the day we share the scope of the situation with the therapist.

My wife is at turns impatient, avoidant, defensive, and apologetic.

The topic that provokes her rage is when I probe re: how she processed her actions relative to our kids.  i.e., her affair was with the father of our youngest daughter's friend. 

She brought him into our home when I took the kids canoeing.  We very nearly walked in on them.  He parked in front of our house.  It's like she wanted to be caught.

I've asked her directly if she wanted to end the marriage, and she says no.  When pushed, you know what usually happens in this situation, she gets defensive.

I've acknowledged that our relationship could be better, but also asked - why not a guy from the gym, or Starbucks, or somewhere else?  Why someone so close?  It seems like an avoidable risk.

At this, she responds honestly - he was the one who showed interest; it felt good.  And then she rages - how dare I question her commitment to the children.  She would never do anything to harm them.  It's as if she has completely separated fact from action.   She's basically said, why would I expect her to choose between her pleasure and her children (of course, never "our children").

I'm feeling particularly vulnerable and exposed, and she seems conflicted at best.

I realize I might be in the wrong place here - she doesn't seem to be concerned about abandonment, although she does have other BPD attributes.  She may be the daughter of a BPD mother - also processing trauma. 

Our therapist practices DBT and I've been reading The High Conflict Couple - it's on point. Not sure if I can get my wife to read it any time soon.  I understand that patience is the key, but I'm super nervous and anxious all the time, not sleeping well, etc. 

Any other resources out there I should explore to get a better grip on what I'm dealing with?

[pursuingJoy]

And then she rages - how dare I question her commitment to the children.  She would never do anything to harm them.  

I'm interested that this triggered an emotional reaction. Do you think she knows, on some level, that her behavior could have really hurt the kids? I'm wondering if there's some shame, she knows she violated her value of protecting and loving her kids.

and she seems conflicted at best.

once removed and others here may have different thoughts, but my gut is that she feels shame, perhaps confusion, and needs some time with her thoughts. Take this advice with a grain of salt from someone who, in the midst of grieving, made the mistake of trying to talk my H through his behavior, in an effort to help him (and me!) understand. It didn't work, and he reacted like I'd attacked him. It's frustrating and counter intuitive, but me stepping back helped him sort out some of the why.

The problem is, it gave my grief no where to go. I was left without resolution, in limbo. Vulnerable and exposed. The only thing that helped was to double down on self-care. Therapy, venting and validation on this forum, vitamin supplements, exercise, shopping with my kids, girls night out...these things have sustained me while my H sorts out his stuff. It does take patience but you can use your time well.

You know your situation better than I. There's a time to speak and a time to be silent. You'll approach whatever you do with thoughtfulness and wisdom.

I realize I might be in the wrong place here - she doesn't seem to be concerned about abandonment, although she does have other BPD attributes.  She may be the daughter of a BPD mother - also processing trauma.  

This isn't the wrong place. If it helps, stay. This forum and the tools we learn are applicable whether the person is diagnosed or not.

I've been reading The High Conflict Couple - it's on point.

What's on point? What stands out to you?

[EyesUp]

I'm interested that this triggered an emotional reaction. Do you think she knows, on some level, that her behavior could have really hurt the kids? I'm wondering if there's some shame, she knows she violated her value of protecting and loving her kids.

once removed and others here may have different thoughts, but my gut is that she feels shame, perhaps confusion, and needs some time with her thoughts. Take this advice with a grain of salt from someone who, in the midst of grieving, made the mistake of trying to talk my H through his behavior, in an effort to help him (and me!) understand. It didn't work, and he reacted like I'd attacked him. It's frustrating and counter intuitive, but me stepping back helped him sort out some of the why.

The problem is, it gave my grief no where to go. I was left without resolution, in limbo. Vulnerable and exposed. The only thing that helped was to double down on self-care. Therapy, venting and validation on this forum, vitamin supplements, exercise, shopping with my kids, girls night out...these things have sustained me while my H sorts out his stuff. It does take patience but you can use your time well.

You know your situation better than I. There's a time to speak and a time to be silent. You'll approach whatever you do with thoughtfulness and wisdom.

This isn't the wrong place. If it helps, stay. This forum and the tools we learn are applicable whether the person is diagnosed or not.

What's on point? What stands out to you?

Thanks for your comments - great insight, and greatly appreciated.

I suspect you hit the nail on the head.  Last night she acknowledged for the first time that she's having difficulty seeing the wife of her guy every day at pre-k pickup/dropoff (surprise!).

And after a week of mixed attitudes, she's become increasingly upset as we head into our therapy session.  I've offered some assurance that my goal is not to beat her up, it's to open up and listen, which seems to have at least partially alleviated her concern.  She initially said "this is entirely for you, you picked the therapist, you already have a relationship" which I had to gently remind her was not the case - we met the therapist for the first time together, she was recommended by a service, etc.

It's a wild ride - watching her slowly realize what she's done (it's going to get worse, I know), and continue to fabricate defenses, decoys, distractions at the same time.

re: The High Conflict Couple...  comments re: Emotional Goals (p85 in the paperback edition) that explain the difficulty in communicating emotional goals in distressed relationships - super helpful both to me (sorting through my own seemingly compromised ability to communicate), and to her (understanding why her translator turns benign statements into raging criticism).

I have not shared the book with her yet, although she saw it on my nightstand and gave a raised eyebrow. It's going to take some practice to put this to work, but it feels like direction from an effective coach, or at least someone who's been watching over my shoulder.  Obviously, both parties need be recognized, understood.

T-2 hours to therapy.  Not exactly the best weekend warmup, but I'll take it.

Thanks again, and good luck to all of us. 

[pursuingJoy]

I've offered some assurance that my goal is not to beat her up, it's to open up and listen, which seems to have at least partially alleviated her concern. 

Wow. This is an effective message. 

Obviously, both parties need be recognized, understood.

I'm glad to hear you say this, because your needs and wants matter as much as hers. I spent 99% of my time here, reading, and in therapy, trying to understand my H. Folks here noted that and applauded it, but also said, 'where are you in all of this? what do you want?' It was almost harder to shift that tide and think about what I wanted. Still working on it.

I'll be thinking about you two in counseling this morning. Sending all the good vibes and hopes for a productive session. Check back in and let us know how it goes.

[EyesUp]

Last Friday's session was positive overall.

I'm coming to the conclusion that my wife has BPD traits, but may not be full blown BPD.

There are clear issues, like the way she devalues me, hears criticism in the most benign communication, and explodes when stressed - however she is able to express emotion and clearly cares deeply our kids (which she sometimes refers to as "my kids" - ouch).

In the session, she expressed concern about the irony that she's the bad buy for cheating, after many years of feeling bad about our relationship - she's content to lay the blame on me, although she does acknowledge that it takes two...  

I think our counselor perked up a bit when she heard this - it's an unusual position to take, for sure - "why am I the bad guy?"

I continue to acknowledge her feelings without attacking.

She's proactively apologized a few times...  "I never meant to hurt you" and "Sorry" and "you're my best friend" etc.

These statements are counter-balanced by other statements.

e.g., my wife has stated that reading "Three Women" by Lisa Taddeo was "life changing".

If you haven't read the book, it's marketed as an unflinching document of female desire, but that's just marketing/packaging.  It's about three women who have extra-marital affairs as they process long-standing trauma, and navigate dysfunctional relationships.  The book documents the sex in detail, which seems less about desire and more about obsession / addiction behaviors that often follow trauma, e.g., eating disorders, or sexual abuse.

In my case, I think the book certainly played a role as my wife identified with two of the characters - even though our specific relationship and her specific traumas were never as fraught as those in the book.  In her BPD-ish way, it must have seemed like "this is me!" back in March/April/May when she was really suffering in pandemic shut down - she retreated from me.

And then in May, along came some interest from a player, and my wife was hooked.  

Now the truth is starting to sink in:
- she put everything at risk
- she rationalized it, justified it
- she devalued me
- she's horrified by the idea that members of her family could find out, or that her personal relationships could be impacted
- he was a player in it for sex, while she was getting some emotional boost - she got played

I can see that it's really sinking in today - it seems the guilt and shame are flooding in.

My new task is to help her manage her own guilt and shame without letting her off the hook.

Looking forward, I'm wondering if it's possible to rebuild a bond and reestablish trust on some level - or if she will always be susceptible when she's not feeling good for whatever reason.

At the very least, we'll be in this situation for at least another ~6 months as the second round of the pandemic plays out and we're effectively locked in the house together with our three kids.

Again, lots of reasons for encouragement that she's not full blown BPD - but still many BPD attributes and behaviors to try to manage, one way or another.

[pursuingJoy]

Thanks for the update, I was wondering how it went on Friday.

(which she sometimes refers to as "my kids" - ouch)

You've mentioned this twice - is it worth bringing up to her? It would bother me too.

In the session, she expressed concern about the irony that she's the bad buy for cheating, after many years of feeling bad about our relationship - she's content to lay the blame on me, although she does acknowledge that it takes two...  

I think our counselor perked up a bit when she heard this - it's an unusual position to take, for sure - "why am I the bad guy?"

My H cheated on his ex-wife after many years of a dysfunctional relationship, so we've talked a lot about this. If your wife was unhappy, she was responsible to voice it and address it with you. If you didn't listen or respond, she had a host of other decisions she could have made. People navigate difficult relationships every day without resorting to affairs. Her response sounds like shame-based defensiveness and she is responsible for her poor choices.

As an aside, I find it interesting that my H, looking back on his behavior, says, "It's amazing, when you're in it, you really believe your own lies."

I continue to acknowledge her feelings without attacking.

What does this look like?

She's proactively apologized a few times...  "I never meant to hurt you" and "Sorry" and "you're my best friend" etc.

These statements are counter-balanced by other statements.

I can so relate, we had the same dynamic in our counseling sessions. My H wasn't apologizing, he was ashamed and trying to level the playing field to make himself feel better. It helped me a lot to look up what a real apology should sound like.

e.g., my wife has stated that reading "Three Women" by Lisa Taddeo was "life changing".

In my case, I think the book certainly played a role as my wife identified with two of the characters - even though our specific relationship and her specific traumas were never as fraught as those in the book.  

My first thought was that your wife was just looking for something to justify her behavior, and that's possible, but maybe she's onto something here. Traumas, even those we might deem lesser, have a weird way of biting us in the rear if they're left unaddressed. Has your wife ever processed her past trauma? Is it possible that it's driving some of her behavior now? That wouldn't justify the affair in any way, but we've seen some really self-destructive behavior. Is it possible that something more than BPD is behind that?

Now the truth is starting to sink in:
- she put everything at risk
- she rationalized it, justified it
- she devalued me
- she's horrified by the idea that members of her family could find out, or that her personal relationships could be impacted
- he was a player in it for sex, while she was getting some emotional boost - she got played

I can see that it's really sinking in today - it seems the guilt and shame are flooding in.

Sinking in for her, right? Is she pretty open with you about all this, or are you noticing behaviors that make you think she understands?

My new task is to help her manage her own guilt and shame without letting her off the hook.

Do you mind if I tweak your wording here? My new task is to give her space to manage her own guilt and shame without letting her off the hook.

Again, lots of reasons for encouragement that she's not full blown BPD - but still many BPD attributes and behaviors to try to manage, one way or another.

I'm glad you're feeling better about this, and it sounds like you're pretty realistic about what's to come, regardless of where she falls on the BPD scale.

[EyesUp]

Sorry I lack the 'excerpt' jiujitsu...

I'll try to respond to the questions:
"my kids" vs. "our kids" - to your other point re: "give her space" - I pick my battles.  But this has been a pattern for a while.  I clearly see how am I routinely devalued...

"acknowledge without attacking"...
an example would be to say that I understand how my travel has impacted her, and raised trust issues - even though I've been committed.  I noted that the fact that she's suffered, been anxious about relationship security - even though I am and have been fully committed - is a Greek tragedy.  No response...

Traumas... 
My wife was sexually abused by a boyfriend as a teenager. Basically, she was expected to provide oral sex, he did not reciprocate. She's also had/has an eating disorder and dysmorphia and is super self conscious about appearance, including scoliosis - she hates swimsuits.

One of her defenses is to devalue my compliments - "you look great" often gets "you're just saying that" or "no I don't" or "my face is fat and wrinkly and I need botox" rather than "thanks" or anything positive - and then later she'll tell me that she feels invisible, not really seen by me. 

The fact is that she's very attractive and super fit, and I think she's incredibly attractive - one of the reasons I married her.  But she's somewhat resistant to accept this from me, and now states that it's one of the reasons she did what she did - it was great to feel appreciation and interest from someone else.  Ouch.

So, yes, unprocessed past trauma combined with defensive devaluation of me.

sinking in...
For her.  She's been semi depressed the past two days or so.  Her comments range from saying the right thing to the wrong thing...  more of "why am I the bad guy?" and "I should have just stayed in my lane" comments which shift blame and avoid accountability, while at least acknowledging the problem.

"Give her space"
Excellent advice, again - thanks.  We're 10 days past d-day, unclear if we have the patience to ride this out over weeks and months. 

Today I made the mistake of asking her to fully cut off the AP, and incurred her wrath.  "Stop harassing me!"

oops.

[pursuingJoy]

Sorry I lack the 'excerpt' jiujitsu...

On the top right corner of the last comment, click on "Excerpt." You'll see the text show up with something like this before the text...

[  quote author=EyesUp link=topic=345716.msg13121673#msg13121673 date=1598374781 ]

...and something like this after the text...

[  quote  ]

Use copy/paste to make sure the quote you want is sandwiched between those two phrases. Delete what you don't want. Try it, you'll have a few minutes to modify (button on the top right of the post) your response if it doesn't work the first time.

I clearly see how am I routinely devalued...

This is tough. You're smart to pick your battles. I hope the day comes when you can address this.

"acknowledge without attacking"...
an example would be to say that I understand how my travel has impacted her, and raised trust issues - even though I've been committed.  I noted that the fact that she's suffered, been anxious about relationship security - even though I am and have been fully committed - is a Greek tragedy.  No response...

It sounds like you're an exceptionally validating person, which is amazing, just watch that line and make sure you're not validating the invalid, or normalizing negative behaviors. I admire your desire to reassure her but also, her trust issues are hers to manage. Certainly you can be thoughtful, but take care not to take on more than what is yours.

One of her defenses is to devalue my compliments

I did a quick search on this forum for BPD's accepting compliments and it brought up a few threads. It seems that simultaneously asking for and rejecting compliments from a spouse is really common, as is appreciating attention from complete strangers. I'm curious about where this comes from.

Today I made the mistake of asking her to fully cut off the AP, and incurred her wrath.  "Stop harassing me!"

Is this something you need, though? Regardless of how angry she gets? Her anger is only one factor in all of this.

[EyesUp]

I did a quick search on this forum for BPD's accepting compliments and it brought up a few threads. It seems that simultaneously asking for and rejecting compliments from a spouse is really common, as is appreciating attention from complete strangers. I'm curious about where this comes from.

Good discussion, I think, of devaluation here... it's biased toward female BPDs, but likely has applicability for any BPD, imo. www.nicolamethodforhighconflict.com/romantic-idealization-and-devaluation

I appreciate the way Nicola describes BPD behaviors that may or may not be associated with a BPD diagnosis.  

Aspects of her theory fit my relationship with my BPD-ish wife perfectly...  
- relationship insecurity
- defensive behaviors that have become ingrained
- "when interest turns to obsession" fits my wife's pattern of obsessive responses to emotional conflicts, and anxiety

Nicola states: "What drives idealization and devaluation by women in romantic relationships at a very basic level is relationship insecurity. There are many factors that can lead to relationship insecurity, but the one we will be addressing is insecurity caused by idealizing women who enter into committed relationships without establishing sufficient trust with their partner."

And as I've noted elsewhere, my wife has never fully processed my potential infidelities prior to marriage (she found a love letter I received, and there was a time I was not where I was supposed to be - although she had a similar indiscretion once - I moved on, she did not).  The trauma was likely seeded in an experience before she met me - an ex-bf broke up with her after she traveled to Nicaragua to meet him (!), I don't think she's recovered yet.

Over the years, we've had our share of communication challenges, but also other events that have likely become traumas - financial challenges when she quit a job without much planning (emotional meltdown), a terminated pregnancy (again, due to financial circumstances - she blames me), etc.  All of this accumulates and builds resentment, which she typically processes via projection on to me (vs. accepting any responsibility), and which reinforces the idea of relationship insecurity.

Meanwhile, I've been a road warrior - so she spends time at home alone worrying about how I spend my nights and evenings - whether I deserve her suspicion or not.

Unclear if the current debacle was her attempt to test my commitment, or enact revenge, or simply an unregulated response to unexpected and exciting interest from a much younger guy.  Or all of the above.

I think she's starting to process that she got played by a player, and she's angry with herself for the emotional investment she made, as well as some of the inevitable guilt and shame that accompanies the fallout.

It's not going to be easy to get her to accept any culpability for her perspective on the circumstances that led up to this.  She lays blame at my feet for ~11 years of unhappiness (massive exaggeration) while raising three kids to this point.

I've reminded her that after the 2nd kid, I repeatedly told her that I was ready to get back to focusing on us, and that we've traveled many times without kids - my 50th birthday present was taking her to Chicago for the weekend, etc etc etc, and all the times I've initiated sex, and all the times I've given her unexpected gifts (which she occasionally diminishes - "I wasn't expecting anything" or "I didn't know we were exchanging gifts").  

Yet she will insist that I'm the source of negativity.

Nicola has some advice here, too:  www.nicolamethodforhighconflict.com/women-on-the-spectrum-of-bpd-devaluation

Worth acknowledging that Nicola is very direct on these types of relationships:  Get out, except in cases like mine where the relationship is heavily invested, with kids, with significant financial consequences.  

Not everyone will agree, of course.

[once removed]

re "is she bpd or bpd-ish":

most of the bpd loved ones described here would not reach the threshold for a clinical diagnosis. its a little bit, but not at all entirely, semantics. you can have a far more difficult person to be with who is lower on the threshold, or vice versa. diagnosis usually comes as a result of a major crisis (suicide attempt, drug overdose, eating disorder) rather than just presenting with traits, even pronounced. one way to put it is the amount of difficulty they are having in their own life as far as coping, not the difficulty they are causing or having with others.

the tools here work with everyone - i dont have anyone with bpd in my life, and i use them all the time. they will be invaluable to you in this process.

joanna nicola is not a mental health professional; she has some constructive advice when it comes to conflict...youll get more out of the high conflict couple.

as far as what you are experiencing, think of an addict. an addict, confronted, will feel cornered. some will be more receptive or upfront than others that there is a problem. the weight of that problem may not be something they are going to able to face any time soon, at least consistently.

in other words, your wife is going to be all over the place about this. youve been patient beyond words; this is where it may be needed most.

a member here described affairs as similar to a three legged stool: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=311567.0;prev_next=next

one of those legs has been suddenly kicked out from under her. coping with that will not come naturally for her. it wont for you, either.

pay mind to what she says about the marriage, what she feels shes been missing, her complaints. know that at the same time, some of it is defensiveness and deflection to rid off shame, and for the time being, its going to be hard to separate whats what. "why am i the bad guy" is one example. an addict says "other people drink x amount, i dont even drink that much, or i dont do it as often, why should i have to change". or "you get to drink, do i not get to drink at all?".

you have a solid feel for the problems, from her perspective, yours, both of yours, that have been a part of the relationship (a terminated pregnancy is an enormous hardship on the strongest of relationships). that will serve you enormously.

the real test has only just begun.

[EyesUp]

@once removed - thank you.

Your words and insight are appreciated.

I read the thread re: 3-legged stool. A few gems in there. Yes, I've recently heard "he said things you've never said" and also "he just wanted sex" (i.e., he sucks, too). She is, as you said, all over the place. I know it will be like this for a while.

Lots of work, e.g., how to navigate / modulate with our couples T?  I want to shout "she's built up a range of defenses, including aggressively devaluing me to justify her emotional positions" but that will only put her back up against the wall.

Patience, I know.

[pursuingJoy]

I want to shout "she's built up a range of defenses, including aggressively devaluing me to justify her emotional positions" but that will only put her back up against the wall.

Patience, yes, esp in joint sessions, but I wonder if it wouldn't do you some good to say that out loud in a safe setting. I often felt that our marriage counselor was missing big pieces of important information because H can be pretty smooth when he wants to be. Our MC suggested we both have individual sessions with her, which helped us both say what we felt we couldn't in a joint session. If that's not an option, finding your own therapist might be a good idea, just to give you the space to say whatever you need to and get validation and insight.

[EyesUp]

Patience, yes, esp in joint sessions, but I wonder if it wouldn't do you some good to say that out loud in a safe setting. I often felt that our marriage counselor was missing big pieces of important information because H can be pretty smooth when he wants to be. Our MC suggested we both have individual sessions with her, which helped us both say what we felt we couldn't in a joint session. If that's not an option, finding your own therapist might be a good idea, just to give you the space to say whatever you need to and get validation and insight.

Thanks, yes, all good points.  I do have my own therapist.  Our MC has not proposed 1:1 sessions yet, but we will likely request this as my W has already started voicing concerns that the MC is on my side, or sees her as the bad guy, etc. - casting doubt on the process. 

It's just over 2 weeks since d-day, and she's still in denial. She is seeking my sympathy because her AP hasn't tried to reengage, and she's feeling rejected. Awesome.

Trying to establish boundaries, but it's difficult when she still relies on me for all types of support - and when the AP and AP's W are not 100% cut off due to exposure in our small town / community activities. 

It occurred to me this weekend that this may not be a sustainable situation.

[pursuingJoy]

She is seeking my sympathy because her AP hasn't tried to reengage, and she's feeling rejected. Awesome.

Is she openly telling you he's not responding or are you getting context clues? Mostly curious if she's this open with her conversation.

In what way are you having difficulty establishing boundaries? Can you be specific?

It occurred to me this weekend that this may not be a sustainable situation.

It's possible, just like it's possible that the tide may shift. It might be too early to say.

How are you, EyesUp? Is some of this hitting you in a different way?

[EyesUp]

Is she openly telling you he's not responding or are you getting context clues? Mostly curious if she's this open with her conversation.

Over the past 2+ weeks, my W has made comments that range from:
- I'm sorry (unprovoked)
- I never should have done this
- It wasn't about you, I tried to resist, I didn't do this / he (AP) pursued me
(this is where the blame shift begins)

to...
- It's not about the last ~10 weeks (affair), it's about what happened the last ~11 years (full on blame shift to me)
- I should have just stayed in my lane
- He (AP) doesn't want me anyway, it's over, I haven't heard from him
- He just wanted sex
- He said things I've never heard before, e.g., "you have a great body, you are so beautiful, etc." (obviously false statement / idealization)
- It was empowering (holding on)
- I'm so old, I have wrinkles, I need botox... 
- Do you think I look much older than my (younger) sisters?

In short, a lot of selfish behavior continues. Her apologies are generally reactive, and feel somewhat perfunctory. She is responsive to my concerns and moods and checks in, but it usually seems like a burden to her...  Her general attitude is "we need to look forward and stop going over the past" which is not entirely wrong, but not particularly supportive.

In what way are you having difficulty establishing boundaries? Can you be specific?

It's possible, just like it's possible that the tide may shift. It might be too early to say.

How are you, EyesUp? Is some of this hitting you in a different way?

It's been difficult to establish any agreement to break off the AP + AP's W, or at least contain exposure.  My W continues to socialize with her AP's W through her book group and through the mom's group via school, and often comments on the AP's W's views on the pandemic, school reopening, etc. etc.  - it's clearly a way to keep a window open, even as my W also comments on how her AP's W is not so smart. They are connected on FB and interact almost daily online or in person. Again, small town situation. I suggested that she should mute or take some action short of fully unfriending both the AP and APW, and was told that I am too controlling - "I'm not your property".  So, yeah...  boundaries.

I've started to consider things that I know are not in anyone's best interest, e.g., informing the AP's W about what's happened. I know that path leads to mutual assured destruction, I don't intend to actually take this action - but I clearly want more definitive action than my W is prepared to provide, so I obsess about options.

I suspect that she's still in the fog to some degree, and will eventually hate the AP whenever she finally wakes up - but it's not clear that she will feel any better or differently about me.

And my W continues to reference "Three Women" by Taddeo as "life changing" - basically three women who have affairs to address past traumas, with minimal attention to consequences, but a lot of attention to sex...  Taddeo has written other essays about monogamy as boring, and celebrated affairs as the most thrilling thing. The book is marketed as a depiction of female desire, but that's packaging IMO. When discussing it with my W (she introduced this topic, I read the book at her suggestion), she gets defensive and goes so far as to assert that maybe all female desire is, in fact, rooted in trauma. OK, sure, we all have disappointments in our formative experiences - but we're working toward healthy stuff, right?

On the other side, my W texted me this AM to suggest that we light a fire after the kids go to bed.

In short, I'm not feeling particularly safe, or on a clear path to recovery. CT is slow, and our provider is gentle to a fault, and my wife sends a many mixed messages.

I have my individual therapy tomorrow, hoping to look past the affair and into some of my own codependent behaviors and related precedents.

When I look at our relationship on the whole, it's a mix. There are things about my W that are great, but she's devalued me in many ways for many years and may never be fully accountable for what she's done in the affair, or before. And this is where the BPDish behavior kicks in.

Somehow the affair is my fault. Her old traumas are my fault (e.g., boyfriend disappointments from before we met). Money issues are my fault (she will not have a discussion about budget or limits without conflict). As noted, she keeps saying "it's ironic that I'm the bad guy" - even to the CT.

Not sure trust can be reestablished this way, and that's the rub. At least, at the moment.

[pursuingJoy]

Over the past 2+ weeks, my W has made comments that range from:
- I'm sorry (unprovoked)
- I never should have done this
- It wasn't about you, I tried to resist, I didn't do this / he (AP) pursued me
(this is where the blame shift begins)

to...
- It's not about the last ~10 weeks (affair), it's about what happened the last ~11 years (full on blame shift to me)
- I should have just stayed in my lane
- He (AP) doesn't want me anyway, it's over, I haven't heard from him
- He just wanted sex
- He said things I've never heard before, e.g., "you have a great body, you are so beautiful, etc." (obviously false statement / idealization)
- It was empowering (holding on)
- I'm so old, I have wrinkles, I need botox... 
- Do you think I look much older than my (younger) sisters?

That is a range. One of my favorite quotes about shame was written by CS Lewis. "Don’t you remember on earth there were things too hot to touch with you finger but you could drink them alright? Shame is like that. If you will attempt it—if you will drink the cup to the bottom—you will find it very nourishing; but try to do anything else with it and it scalds." Your wife is doing everything she possibly can to play with it.

In short, a lot of selfish behavior continues. Her apologies are generally reactive, and feel somewhat perfunctory.

You'll know a real apology when you see it. No use in arguing with them about this, though. The 'apology' is a way to brush people away, push them away from the shame.

She is responsive to my concerns and moods and checks in, but it usually seems like a burden to her... 

I don't like feeling like a burden. She's guarding this massive, sensitive ball. It defines everything for her right now. You're trying to touch it, maybe even take it away, and that sets off an alarm for her. It would leave her uncovered and vulnerable and that scares her.

Her general attitude is "we need to look forward and stop going over the past" which is not entirely wrong, but not particularly supportive.

"Leave the ball alone. Just ignore it. It's not a big deal, ok?" The only people who have ever said this to me were the people who abused me, or felt shame about the abuse. It highlights their discomfort, nothing else. And it's gaslighty.

It's been difficult to establish any agreement to break off the AP + AP's W, or at least contain exposure.  My W continues to socialize with her AP's W through her book group and through the mom's group via school, and often comments on the AP's W's views on the pandemic, school reopening, etc. etc.  - it's clearly a way to keep a window open, even as my W also comments on how her AP's W is not so smart. They are connected on FB and interact almost daily online or in person. Again, small town situation. I suggested that she should mute or take some action short of fully unfriending both the AP and APW, and was told that I am too controlling - "I'm not your property".  So, yeah...  boundaries.

Whew. I wish she was more open to putting some distance between them. I wouldn't like this either. Obviously cold turkey blocking isn't the best idea, but there are small things that could help. I wonder if this one is worth setting a boundary around. I so admire your patience, EyesUp, and it gives you a leg up on many of the people who come here in your position. I also wonder if it hasn't meant sacrificing more than you care to to accommodate your wife. I could be way off, so don't hesitate to tell me so - there's only so much you can get by writing.

I wonder if this is an area where you might be able to set a boundary. I would think this is an area where the marriage counselor can support a goal and follow through. Thoughts? once removed, any ideas?

I've started to consider things that I know are not in anyone's best interest, e.g., informing the AP's W about what's happened. I know that path leads to mutual assured destruction, I don't intend to actually take this action - but I clearly want more definitive action than my W is prepared to provide, so I obsess about options.

You are such a patient person so when you say you're starting to consider things that aren't in everyone's best interest, you have my full attention.

After promising me he wouldn't train women, my H said yes to a mutual female coworker and started working out with her in the gym at work. I tried to be patient and talk to him. It was almost like he didn't hear me at all, or decided he heard something different. This went on for months. He literally changed our conversations in his head. I finally picked up the phone, called her, and politely explained it. It was awkward. I didn't want to. But I was calm, and in my situation, it was the right thing to do.

I felt peace, I was calm and congenial. The girl was angry and asked me, "Who do you expect me to work out with now?" H, who was terrified of setting the boundary, was relieved, weirdly, and told me I was right. He said he felt uncomfortable telling her no so he hid behind me and he apologized. Very frustrating situation, in every way. Thankfully, none of it has been repeated.

This was minor. The pebble dropped into the pond and that was that. I'm not recommending you tell APwife. That would create a ripple in your small town that you can't take back.  I do believe there is a time and a place to speak up, and I wonder if we can't brainstorm a smaller step you can take that will protect what you value. The more I think about it, the more I think the counselor could play a critical role here.

And my W continues to reference "Three Women" by Taddeo as "life changing" - basically three women who have affairs to address past traumas, with minimal attention to consequences, but a lot of attention to sex...  Taddeo has written other essays about monogamy as boring, and celebrated affairs as the most thrilling thing. The book is marketed as a depiction of female desire, but that's packaging IMO. When discussing it with my W (she introduced this topic, I read the book at her suggestion), she gets defensive and goes so far as to assert that maybe all female desire is, in fact, rooted in trauma. OK, sure, we all have disappointments in our formative experiences - but we're working toward healthy stuff, right?

Her fascination with this book is interesting. Just want to let you know I think you're on the money with your assessment. Affairs damage trust. Asserting that all female desire is rooted in trauma... No. That's not ok.

I'll even concede that monogamy isn't the answer for some people, but the reality is, even if you want to take on new partners, the very baseline, the starting point, is a mutually respectful, open conversation with your partner about what you want. You make decisions together. So no, I absolutely disagree with Taddeo and I disagree with your wife. This is a pretty unhealthy view, imo. 

In short, I'm not feeling particularly safe, or on a clear path to recovery. CT is slow, and our provider is gentle to a fault, and my wife sends a many mixed messages.

I get not feeling safe. Our marriage counselor was soo careful with my H. He can actually face hard truths and prefers directness, so her approach didn't always work in our favor. She explained to me 1:1 that she was concerned he was a flight risk and would shut her out, she was earning his trust. I kind of agreed, but also not. They're trained to do this work, so I guess we are better off trusting them, but also, they're just human, and sometimes they miss things. Marriage counseling can be really tough.

I have my individual therapy tomorrow, hoping to look past the affair and into some of my own codependent behaviors and related precedents.

Let us know how this goes. We all need support. I'm so glad you're taking this step.

When I look at our relationship on the whole, it's a mix. There are things about my W that are great, but she's devalued me in many ways for many years and may never be fully accountable for what she's done in the affair, or before. And this is where the BPDish behavior kicks in.

Are there things that happened in that past that are coming up for you?

Somehow the affair is my fault. Her old traumas are my fault (e.g., boyfriend disappointments from before we met). Money issues are my fault (she will not have a discussion about budget or limits without conflict). As noted, she keeps saying "it's ironic that I'm the bad guy" - even to the CT.

Be a mirror, not a sponge. These things are not your responsibility. Reflect them back on her, even if you're only doing it internally. These are not yours to carry. 

Not sure trust can be reestablished this way, and that's the rub. At least, at the moment.

You're in this weird in-between space - answers, relief, even movement in any direction would be nice. It will be this way for a little while. Process, grieve your losses, whatever they may be, and take care of yourself physically and emotionally. Better days are ahead, EyesUp. 

[once removed]

- I'm sorry (unprovoked)
- I never should have done this
- It wasn't about you, I tried to resist, I didn't do this / he (AP) pursued me
(this is where the blame shift begins)

to...
- It's not about the last ~10 weeks (affair), it's about what happened the last ~11 years (full on blame shift to me)
- I should have just stayed in my lane
- He (AP) doesn't want me anyway, it's over, I haven't heard from him
- He just wanted sex
- He said things I've never heard before, e.g., "you have a great body, you are so beautiful, etc." (obviously false statement / idealization)
- It was empowering (holding on)
- I'm so old, I have wrinkles, I need botox...
- Do you think I look much older than my (younger) sisters?

there is more than likely a grain of truth to all of these things.

remember that i mentioned your wife would be all over the place.

shes really running the gamut: there is shame and remorse. there is an effort, that stops short, at ownership. theres major insecurity. and there is also her version of what she feels was missing from the marriage.

shes trying to explain to herself, and to you. shes also trying to apologize, long before she really recognizes the full weight of her actions.

shes trying to come to terms with it. shes a long ways off.

Her apologies are generally reactive, and feel somewhat perfunctory. She is responsive to my concerns and moods and checks in, but it usually seems like a burden to her...  Her general attitude is "we need to look forward and stop going over the past" which is not entirely wrong, but not particularly supportive.

i dont think that a person who was (is) in a low enough place to put her family at risk, and hasnt come to terms with the destruction shes done is in much of a place to support you. she is likely far more preoccupied with fear of you judging her, which is selfish, to be sure.

the progress you are going to see, if there is going to be any, involves teeny tiny baby steps. healing has only barely begun, and it could get worse before it gets better.

you are going to have resentments...deep ones. you are going to need strong, consistent support, that she not only may not be able to provide, but may be, for a while at least, prone to rubbing salt in the wound. shes going to say and do a lot of the wrong things. shes saying a lot of the classic things that affair partners say, like "we shouldnt dwell on the past", or "i cant keep apologizing". i have never had an affair myself, but generally, both parties have expectations of the other that are difficult for any human to fulfill.

expect this. recovery, if possible, is a very long game. it can benefit from positive triangulation.

[EyesUp]

@pursuingjoy and @once removed - thank you both.

Your comments are truly helpful.

I hope you don't mind if I don't respond to every point inline - however I've read them all 3+ times.

@pursuingjoy - I appreciate the literary references / quotes.  I started reading CS Lewis to our 9yo over the summer, we made it up to Prince Caspian and had to take a break. 

You are 100% correct about my W's defensiveness. She's not ready to own her mistake, and the times when I've pushed are when she's been most adversarial.  This gets right to the underlying dynamics that got us here - she struggles with her own flaws and mistakes, and has grown increasingly resistant to any discussion that treads on accountability in recent years.  In limited situations, she can behave like an adult and agree to adjust or reboot, but most of the time it's 100% deflection or worse.

@once removed - Point taken re: readiness to engage meaningfully in terms of self-reflection or acknowledgement to me.  She's demonstrating it very clearly.

The latest is:  She invited the AP's W over to our house for a playdate, and informed me after the fact. I know this because I took a look at her text messages. She flipped the script and said that the invitation to get together was from the AP's W at school dropoff, and she merely followed up, and that the best thing for all of us is to "normalize" the situation. She is not aware that I'm snooping, and I feel somewhat bad about doing this but it's a protective measure. 

I've been trying to minimize constant discussion and give her space, but I feel that this type of ongoing behavior crosses a line and so I attempted to address it. Before she had a chance to confirm or announce plans, I proposed my own agenda for the weekend via email. She was slow to respond, so I broached it when she got home and she fessed up "we might have a play date, you won't like the details..."  I explained why this doesn't seem right to me - and she agreed not to invite the APW again - but she declined to cancel, instead insisting that we wait for the APW's to respond.

I was very direct and said this situation is messed up, it feels like she's deliberately keeping a door open. She doesn't respond well to this. No surprise.

I also peeked at her FB messenger activity on her computer. Sure enough, she's still in touch with the AP.  She sends him links to home gym equipment for sale in the FB marketplace. I think it's exactly what it appears to be - a means to keep a window open, let him know that she's thinking of him. The point is: She's resisted my requests to formally end contact, and also denied that they are in touch. They both delete the messages, so what I see is very hit or miss.

To address this, I have broached the topic of going 100% open honesty and giving each other complete access to our phones any time. Admittedly I'm trying to level the playing field. She both accepts this, and also expresses a lot of irritation. Lips say "ok" while body language and attitude says "no" - so while in theory she has accepted the proposal, my sense is that it's still a boundary for her. Some of her objections include "what if you see a text from a friend with personal info" to which I say "if our relationship is the #1 priority, you'll need to worry about us before friends, and trust me to do the right thing about things that don't concern me" - another one is "why spend time reviewing past activity?" to which I say "we can both delete whatever we want - the point is to be open going forward" - she's clearly not ready yet.

Limerance, or something else, something worse? I know you cannot say. I know that if I push too hard, that I'm backing her into a corner. So far I have avoided confrontation.

In the meantime, we are leaving the kids at grandma's for a night this weekend.

She's promised me that she's done, it's over.  She's also said I'm acting bi-polar, romantic one minute and angry the next. She might be right!

And she's dragging feet re: getting her own 1:1 therapy.

Again, thanks for your comments and questions. Onward.

[Brooklyn1974]

She's also said I'm acting bi-polar, romantic one minute and angry the next. She might be right!

That is sort of a deflection but my wife says the same to me.  She is in contact with her ex-bf and renting from him.  I do find myself at times wanting to work on things with my wife and almost be 'too sweet' then at times my mind goes back to her cheating and her now in contact with her ex and the reaction to my thoughts make me miserable.

I tried to explain this to my wife, that this situation is not normal and I feel I am being betrayed however she twists what I am feeling to suit her pursuit of whatever it may be.

Would this not be a limitation/boundary you would want to set into place?  As my situation drags on longer the feeling of wanting to end the marriage gets more real.  Take a step back from all of this and look at the bigger picture.  Also do you really want to play detective your whole life?  That has to be mentally and emotionally exhausting.

[EyesUp]

That is sort of a deflection but my wife says the same to me.  She is in contact with her ex-bf and renting from him.  I do find myself at times wanting to work on things with my wife and almost be 'too sweet' then at times my mind goes back to her cheating and her now in contact with her ex and the reaction to my thoughts make me miserable.

I tried to explain this to my wife, that this situation is not normal and I feel I am being betrayed however she twists what I am feeling to suit her pursuit of whatever it may be.

Would this not be a limitation/boundary you would want to set into place?  As my situation drags on longer the feeling of wanting to end the marriage gets more real.  Take a step back from all of this and look at the bigger picture.  Also do you really want to play detective your whole life?  That has to be mentally and emotionally exhausting.

Never a dull moment.

To answer you question, a quick update.

The AP's W came back with a proposal - why not bring our daughter to their house for a movie before bed time?

I just could not allow this to go without comment.

So, attempting to set boundaries, I explained my concerns and invoked significant wrath in the process.  I pushed too hard, really, but my wife admitted that she's been in touch with the AP and was 90% honest about the content, and agreed to stop communicating (although she never remembers what has been said in anger).  She said that she still feels rejected, and if all this continues she will jump from the roof or slit her wrists (I've heard this before, although not in a while).

I held my ground, and potentially enforced boundaries - minimal contact, no more plans, no more messaging about a gym. Nonetheless, she still intends to bring our daughter over for movie night.

I'll broach this with our CT in a 1:1 session, see what she has to say.

I hear you re: feeling miserable.  Hey - we're processing. To answer your question about playing detective - I literally just said to my W - the sooner we're prioritizing our relationship the sooner we will both feel better our relationship - but if the door the AP stays open, the more likely we will need to address some deception, directly or indirectly. And I don't want to go full Benson and Stabler due to paranoia - or any other reason. Not sure she heard me.

This is what could kill us, right here.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

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[pursuingJoy]

Nonetheless, she still intends to bring our daughter over for movie night.

Since W agreed to at least reduce, if not cut off communication, any chance you can handle drop off/pick up?

I'll broach this with our CT in a 1:1 session, see what she has to say.

I think this is smart. Hey - this situation gives you really great material to talk through with the counselor with an identifiable, practical, preferred outcome. It's an opportunity to get specific, which will create discomfort for her (she seems to want to sidestep specifics when it comes to boundaries) but you can anticipate her response and be prepared.

This is what could kill us, right here.

You're working through really tough stuff. Keep investing in your emotional and physical health so you are at your best when you engage with W.

[EyesUp]

Since W agreed to at least reduce, if not cut off communication, any chance you can handle drop off/pick up?

My W intends to stay, not drop off. Our daughter is 5, now there will be other kids invited, and presumably other moms there. Objectively, it's not the worst situation, I don't want to deprive my daughter of a chance to be with friends. However my W and her AP have taken advantage of similar situations in the past, e.g., sneak a bathroom break... I think the added risk has been part of their game.

I think this is smart. Hey - this situation gives you really great material to talk through with the counselor with an identifiable, practical, preferred outcome. It's an opportunity to get specific, which will create discomfort for her (she seems to want to sidestep specifics when it comes to boundaries) but you can anticipate her response and be prepared.

You're working through really tough stuff. Keep investing in your emotional and physical health so you are at your best when you engage with W.

The truth is that she's avoided boundaries forever. She's not a reliable narrator, to herself or others. I've been wondering if current affairs <ahem> are a strong enough jolt to the system to provide a chance for intervention, or if it's the same old storm I've seen before. Given that it's been ~3 weeks since d-day, and my W still doesn't have her own T lined up, and that she's still lying about her contact, I'm not feeling great at the moment. Need to figure out how much I can trust our CT. Next session is tomorrow - Friday - before W takes our daughter to movies later that same day.

My sense is: It's probably not a good idea to use the CT session to address any of this. But I hate to keep punting, which feels like capitulating.

Thanks again.

[pursuingJoy]

My W intends to stay, not drop off. Our daughter is 5, now there will be other kids invited, and presumably other moms there. Objectively, it's not the worst situation, I don't want to deprive my daughter of a chance to be with friends. However my W and her AP have taken advantage of similar situations in the past, e.g., sneak a bathroom break... I think the added risk has been part of their game.

This doesn't give me warm fuzzies. It feels pretty squishy, laying the groundwork for more encounters like it. I know you need to pick your battles.

The truth is that she's avoided boundaries forever.

BPD is sort of boundary-less by nature. We can't wait around for them to appreciate boundaries, set them, or even respect the ones we set. What we can do is work out our own boundary muscles - identifying, setting, and reinforcing them.

She's not a reliable narrator, to herself or others.

I like how you worded this. Dealing with a situation with my H since yesterday and this describes him perfectly.

Need to figure out how much I can trust our CT.

My T offered either of us could call for a quick 15 minute check in. I was pretty direct and expressed, politely, that I was having trouble trusting her. She didn't take it personally and explained her approach. It helped quite a bit. Trust is critical.

Thinking about you this morning. Let us know how it goes.

[EyesUp]

The summary is:

The morning before the playdate, my W came home from the gym and asked me if she was kidding herself, running around in gym clothes all the time, because she still feels rejected by her AP...

I reminded her that he expressed concern about getting caught by his own W as the reason to end their affair, and that she still hasn't taken any action to communicate that I know, and that the open window is still open.  She should take the positives - a younger guy pursued her - and take action to reinforce her own best interests - rather than allowing this to linger in a way that's damaging to her (and to us).

I also picked her up and kissed her and let her know that I find her to be completely lust worthy...

But there was no way to prevent the playdate.  She originally indicated that she would be home at 7 (daughter's bed time).  She checked in at 7 to say that the movie was first starting - outdoor screen, not dark yet, etc. and "def not staying more than another hour" - I finally called her at 8:45 (should not have done it, but was going a bit crazy), and she was getting in the car.  Home at 9pm, 2 hours late.

After our daughter was asleep, I confronted her - probably too aggressively.  "so what's the story with the 5-hour playdate?"  It did not go well, she was super reactive and defensive.

After sleeping it off, I think that it boils down to the lingering emotional aspects.

I believe that she spent a majority of the time with the AP's W, watching our daughter.  She wanted to be there, to see how the AP would behave.  She hasn't been forthcoming about her feelings, but I'm sure we'll discuss at some point today.  

It is clear that there is an open window, and that's what I need to work on.

She insists that she wants to work on our relationship, and our last CT session (also yesterday, prior to the playdate) went relatively well.  After the session, my W commented that she felt the same - maybe because the stakes are higher?

It's been a month since d-day, and I realize that my W is still processing (mainly avoiding) her guilt and shame.  She will finally speak with her own T this coming week.  That should be interesting.

[EyesUp]

In the aftermath of the "playdate" my wife responded to something I'd posted on Instagram long ago.  Many pics of our travels, kids - she's never engaged before, always says she prefers FB.  But suddenly there's some engagement.

And she's posted pic of her with our dog, captioned "our 4th child".

And I can't help but notice that her ~20 followers are now close to ~40, and now include her AP.  And she's following him, too. 

I confronted her, poorly I'm sure, and received another robust defense. "Fine, I'll quite all social media" (nope, just one contact) and "it's just one random thing" (nope, not random at all).  But no agreement to go NC, or minimal contact, or to disclose that I know about the affair, or to formally, decisively end the affair.

Instead, she says "I love holding their baby".

It's much worse than I thought. Presently weighing my options.

My feeling is:  Continuing to expose our youngest daughter to this family puts our child at risk. And keeping open windows - and adding new ones - is a clear red flag about my W's (and her AP's) state of mind.

My worst instincts are to contact the AP's W, but I know that this is a scorched earth strategy where my W is concerned.

I realize I need to take care of myself, but this is exhausting and it's hard to see the endgame.

We live in MA - a no-fault state - and I don't see any way to get full custody of our kids, or keep them in our current home if I initiate a divorce - my wife would not be able to afford to keep it, based on the alimony and child support calcs I've run so far.

Trying to modulate between "in sickness and in health" and sticking out CT as long as possible, and trying all the things that help regulate and reinforce positivity - vs - honoring my own integrity, and attempting to create a safe space, at least part of the time - for myself and my kids.

I'll wrap up by saying:  Just got a text from W suggesting plans for her b-day in Oct.  Our 14-year anniversary is the same week.  It's hard to reconcile her behavior moment to moment.

[once removed]

it doesnt seem like the gravity of her actions, and all of this, have really hit her, and it doesnt seem that shes willing to make a true reckoning, take responsibility, cut the  .

and part of me isnt very surprised. you would want and hope to see more...but i still think you are in a "long game" here.

bringing back the addiction comparison, its a little bit like shes been told she has a problem, she admits theres sort of a problem, but shes not prepared to surrender to the reality of the problem, and most of her solutions are lip service, more than a serious reckoning.

it does seem like the AP being the one to end things is playing a role. shes not entirely prepared to let go of the fantasy, and its preoccupying her. 

beyond that, when an addict recovers, they address the "roots" of the addiction. i think thats a long way from happening, and i dont think shes psychologically ready. i think that she has very tentatively looked around for reasons - a lot of which blame external sources like yourself - and you have quite admirably asked "what is my role in this" without legitimatizing what is ultimately a failure of poor coping on her part - and thats what the long game really is: her coming to terms with what shes done, your coming to terms with the betrayal, and both of you being able to heal in a way that can ultimately strengthen the relationship.

none of that is to say there hasnt been progress already. its just to put progress in the context of a journey that both of you are on.

is she seeing a professional one on one?

[EyesUp]

it doesnt seem like the gravity of her actions, and all of this, have really hit her, and it doesnt seem that shes willing to make a true reckoning, take responsibility, cut the  .

and part of me isnt very surprised. you would want and hope to see more...but i still think you are in a "long game" here.

Agree 100%

bringing back the addiction comparison, its a little bit like shes been told she has a problem, she admits theres sort of a problem, but shes not prepared to surrender to the reality of the problem, and most of her solutions are lip service, more than a serious reckoning.

it does seem like the AP being the one to end things is playing a role. shes not entirely prepared to let go of the fantasy, and its preoccupying her. 

yes, again.  she is actively mourning the loss of the fantasy.

beyond that, when an addict recovers, they address the "roots" of the addiction. i think thats a long way from happening, and i dont think shes psychologically ready. i think that she has very tentatively looked around for reasons - a lot of which blame external sources like yourself - and you have quite admirably asked "what is my role in this" without legitimatizing what is ultimately a failure of poor coping on her part - and thats what the long game really is: her coming to terms with what shes done, your coming to terms with the betrayal, and both of you being able to heal in a way that can ultimately strengthen the relationship.

none of that is to say there hasnt been progress already. its just to put progress in the context of a journey that both of you are on.

is she seeing a professional one on one?

My W has agreed to reengage with the same T she previously saw for several years, prior to the pandemic.  First session is this afternoon, and she appears to be dreading it because she needs to explain what she's done and she's expecting some judgment from someone she knows. She previously reported that she didn't like this T because she was always asked "how are you going to fix this?" for all problems.  Of course it's a tough question, maybe the worst question, for someone who is avoidant of responsibility, accountability, and self-actualization - and who generally lacks empathy.   It's always been hard for my W to envision how she can fix things when it's usually someone else's fault (usually mine) - so I am also apprehensive about reengaging the same old T.

I tried to help her find new resources, actually identified available Ts that accept our insurance - but her follow up was half hearted at best.  She found her own private pay option and then blamed me for declining to cover it - we are already stretched thin, she is well aware - so this seemed like just another way to avoid/deflect/blame shift.

If anyone here knows an appropriate T in MA that accepts Tufts for insurance, I'd love a referral.  Must be a female T for my W.

Thanks for the comments, as always.

[EyesUp]

CT update...

I discussed my concerns about ongoing exposure / engagement with her AP and APW prior to CT.  W's response was "you're pushing me back to him" with anger, but she asked me to go ahead and raise the issue in our CT session today.

I laid out the issues:
W and AP broke it based on spousal pressure (apparently AP reported that his W was reviewing phone and CC activity super closely), not based on discovery or a direct statement to end the affair.

Subsequently my W lied about contact - there have been some facebook messages, and lied about making playdates for our kids, and she sees the AP and/or AP's W at pickup/dropoff for our daughter almost every day.

My ask:  Send a definitive statement to the AP that it's 100% over, I know about the affair, and go minimum contact going forward.

W rejects this.  CT states to me:  You need to decide if you want to face the consequences of forcing your W to do something she doesn't want to do.

Awesome.

What about the consequences to my W for forcing me to live with conditions I don't want to accept?

[pursuingJoy]

I was hopeful that your wife was willing to go back to therapy and crossing my fingers that it would go well.

CT states to me:  You need to decide if you want to face the consequences of forcing your W to do something she doesn't want to do.

Pretty sure I would have been equally frustrated at the timing of this statement. This counselor is familiar with your wife. The approach she usually took was to ask how she'd take responsibility or fix it, right? Is your wife typically pretty unwilling to take responsibility, or is this a new development?

What I'm taking away is that you're making an ask and wife is refusing. Is your hope that you will convince her by asking her repeatedly?

What about the consequences to my W for forcing me to live with conditions I don't want to accept?

Fair question EyesUp.

[EyesUp]

I was hopeful that your wife was willing to go back to therapy and crossing my fingers that it would go well.

Pretty sure I would have been equally frustrated at the timing of this statement. This counselor is familiar with your wife. The approach she usually took was to ask how she'd take responsibility or fix it, right? Is your wife typically pretty unwilling to take responsibility, or is this a new development?

Thanks so much for following along - it means a lot.  I'm referring to our CT, we've had 4 sessions.  You're thinking of a different reference to my W's individual T, who has asked "how are you going to fix this?" in the past.

The CT acknowledged my "ask" as fair, but took a very balanced position. 

We have not scheduled 1:1 sessions with the CT - actually my W has avoided it.  My W has also suggested that the CT is on my side, but came away from yesterday's call feeling differently.

What I'm taking away is that you're making an ask and wife is refusing. Is your hope that you will convince her by asking her repeatedly?

Fair question EyesUp.

I clearly see that asking repeatedly is not working - just the opposite.

Interesting discussion with my W at the end of the day yesterday - We picked up our D5 at kindergarten together yesterday and briefly spoke with the AP's W.  Later in the evening, my W noted that AP's W is standoffish.  "Maybe she knows, or suspects, but that's the way she always behaves".  Me: "What's it like to hang out with her for 5 hours? (reference to playdate)".  W: "She's different when she drinks a bit" and then "completely different from her H (AP), who is much more extroverted and can talk to anyone."  Me: "I feel badly for her."  W: "I don't."

After a beat or two, W continued "I mean, I did feel bad at the time, but I'm not doing it anymore.  I guess I'd feel bad for her if AP is with someone new."

Just wow.

I realized how deeply in denial my W is at this point. She has completely compartmentalized her guilt. Her comments seemed open, unguarded - which gives me some sense that the physical stuff is over, the emotional stuff continues, and we are a long, long way off from meaningful recovery.

Of course my wife is hosting a mom's night on Friday and AP's W plans to join.

I think the CT has spotted my W's aversion and probably made a good call in yesterday's session - in the interest of keeping the discussion moving.

However there's a line between enablement / unintentional endorsement vs. constructively guiding the discussion in a productive direction.

Everything I've read here and elsewhere says to give it at least 90 days.  So, 60 days to go.

For the past month, I've generally been pursuing some type of recovery/reconciliation.  In sickness and health, etc.  Today, I'm wondering if it's possible.

I know I need to take care of myself - each path is long and hard and uncertain.  However it's feeling less possible to trust someone who cannot - or generally does not - take responsibility.

I feel I need to prepare for the massive blame shift that will eventually come for everything that has ever gone wrong in our relationship.  I'm mainly thinking of our kids...

[once removed]

W rejects this.  CT states to me:  You need to decide if you want to face the consequences of forcing your W to do something she doesn't want to do.

What about the consequences to my W for forcing me to live with conditions I don't want to accept?

these are what they call "cold, hard truths". cold, and clinical. but at the same time, undeniable.

W's response was "you're pushing me back to him"
...
I clearly see that asking repeatedly is not working - just the opposite.

I realized how deeply in denial my W is at this point. She has completely compartmentalized her guilt.

your wife is not prepared for accountability, or for taking responsible steps, or for emotionally ending the affair. shes saying that loudly, and clearly.

if you push, any number of things may happen.

more than likely, she will resent you. possibly, it may push her toward him. possibly, it may work, in the short term, and then what happens is anyones guess. maybe she looks for another outlet. maybe she reinvests in your marriage. maybe she does one and then the other.

my point is not to take your wifes side here...your position, your feelings, are not wrong or invalid. the point is that dealing with this involves radical acceptance - cold, hard truths. and you have to make decisions based on those things, and be prepared to live with them.

my sense is, for sure, that shes going to need more time. there is, unfortunately, no guarantee that time will do the trick.

For the past month, I've generally been pursuing some type of recovery/reconciliation.  In sickness and health, etc.  Today, I'm wondering if it's possible.

I know I need to take care of myself - each path is long and hard and uncertain.  However it's feeling less possible to trust someone who cannot - or generally does not - take responsibility.

this is another cold, hard truth.

it is critical to go into this process, not only with eyes wide open, but in a way that acknowledges and lives your values, and your limits.

my sense is that you continue to have a good grip on this. you are not in a situation with great options, or you wouldnt be here. youre in a situation where its critical to understand "what it takes", and weigh, consistently, not only whether "what it takes" will pay dividends, but whether it is possible on a personal level, for you, or for her.

obviously, i wouldnt decide today - i dont think you would either - but i would continue to weigh all aspects of this.

your counselor is walking this fine line of not taking sides. she knows what it takes. she knows you and your wifes limits, and limitations. and she knows who is emotionally prepared to hear what.

[pursuingJoy]

However there's a line between enablement / unintentional endorsement vs. constructively guiding the discussion in a productive direction.

I've been here with a counselor and I want to validate that it's a pretty frustrating place. I felt so disappointed. I'd hoped they'd use their power to influence, and instead, they almost seemed to pander to my H, peppering a random difficult question here and there. It never seemed enough.

What once removed said is, I think, accurate. The CT is wise to only work with the material being offered. This way, any movement will be lasting because it's authentically owned by you and W.

People that feel defensive are far less likely to listen. Sounds like the CT took an intentional step to lower your W's defenses momentarily with the goal to keep W coming back and maybe even trust CT.

Our CT saw what was happening, but said her role was not to take sides but to facilitate a conversation and try to get H to hear me. At one point she kindly said, "Sure, I could tell him what I think. But what good would that do? He would then be upset with me and feel like you and I were on the same side. And he still wouldn't be able to hear you." I had to ask myself if I just wanted validation, in front of H, that I was right, or did I want lasting change with H?

Whether you talk to your CT 1:1 or not, I'm hoping my experience can shed some light and give you some confidence in what the CT is doing.

We're here. I'm so sorry you're going through this. I admire your level-headedness and pragmatism. Your wife is fortunate to be working through this with someone like you. I hope you find a safe space to fall apart sometimes. You're carrying a heavy load. 

[EyesUp]

@once removed
@pursuingjoy

Thanks again.

Perhaps it's 4 weeks in, or maybe it's 9/11.  Today I'm angry.

I'm thinking about the various ways my W has tried to gain power rather than establish a healthier relationship over the years.  Gaslighting, devaluing, etc.

My MO has generally been to stay above the fray and not engage, although I now see the limitations of this approach as a long term strategy!

She's finally drawn blood, and perhaps feels like she has some power.

I understand that affair has happened - out of my control, no going back.

However I'm not sure that I'm willing or able to let it stand.  It's not my intention to see her suffer, but some level of awareness seems... necessary.  Starting to feel like I'm kidding myself - this might not be possible.  I'm reading up on phases of recovery, and I know I'm just getting started. 

Different communities process this in different ways.  Strong positions re: cut and run ASAP, burn it down, vs. taking a long view, vs. possible reconciliation.

In my case, where my W is actively singing the AP's praises and far from showing true remorse, it seems unlikely that her POV will change on its own.  It must be informed by some new information or other stimulus.  Maybe she's holding on for a sign from him (hence all the ongoing exposure), or maybe she's avoiding reality (still holding on to the fantasy).  My instinct is to avoid the fray, not to stoop to her level, not to engage where I am impartial (and therefore subject to scrutiny) - and yet most of my W's inputs are coming from her enablers - in particular, one friend who did not discourage the affair (never married, multiple side relationships with longterm partner, the father of her 2 kids), and possibly the therapist.

e.g., W says that her T told her to share the things that the AP said that made her feel good. 

It's all player talk - "you've got a great body" - things I have most certainly affirmed to my wife time and time again, although perhaps not as much as I should have in recent months. 

The point is:  Somehow the assumption is that I should boost my W at this time. OK, I get the need to insert positivity and try to limit negativity - don't be invalidating, etc.

But the message didn't come over as "here are things I'd like to hear" - it came as "here are things the AP said that you never say" - a false narrative, wrapped in contest that I'd prefer to avoid.

I guess patience is the answer for the moment, as I've been unsuccessful with boundaries thus far.

[EyesUp]

It turns out that my patience has a limit.

Without any intention of confronting my wife today, a number of key points came forward.

It started when speaking about one of the few people who know about the affair - a recent friend who I am certain is an enabler.

I pointed out that 6-months ago this "friend" was an acquaintance we considered to be an idiot, and now she knows the most intimate details of our relationship.  After d-day, she came over and I said "thanks for being a good friend to my wife" - which was then reported back to me as interpreted as a power play.  I reminded my wife that we need to put each other first, and that the power play dynamic is not cool...

I also suggested that there is only one position for a true friend when dealing with infidelity:  don't do it, don't support.  I am certain that this "friend" was "go for it! have a good time!"

The situation escalated and I made my position known:

Relationship issues prior to the affair are 50/50, and I am 100% committed to addressing whatever I can change in myself to improve our future together. 

But the affair is 100% on my W.

She exploded.

Left the house screaming "you win!" and slamming doors.

Our two older daughters were horrified, asked if we're getting a divorce.  I hugged them and explained that we're having a hard time.  Both have seen counselors in the past, I told them that we are also seeing counselors and working on some difficult things that can be very upsetting, but that we love them, and love each other and mom will be home...

While the W was out, we had a txt exchange that included some threats of self harm.  I'm not sure if this constitutes emotional abuse to me or a legitimate threat.

W is now home.  I'm debating how to handle the "I really don’t want to keep living if this is how it is going to be" statement.

Of course she completely ignores any and all affirming statements.

Commence weekend operations!

[EyesUp]

One week follow up.

Last weekend was rough.  My W's AP's W was at our house for a mom's wine night last Friday, and then we saw her at our D5's kindergarten pickup on Tues.  I've tried to gently raise concerns about continuing exposure, setting limits, boundaries, etc. without much success.  

After Tues I mentioned that I feel badly for the AP's W.  My W snapped back "I don't" and then after a pause, added "well, actually I feel bad for her because he's (W's AP) is probably f*cking someone else now."

I was stunned by the compartmentalization.

Then, we had CT on Weds - and my W had a near total meltdown, and threatened self harm. My W, would not come back to the table (telehealth CT session), screamed "you're all against me" and collapsed on the bathroom floor sobbing.  Our kids were home for remote school, saw the police enter the house and mom leave in an ambulance. The CT called 911 and my W was taken to the hospital under Section 12.  

She was eventually released at the end of the day on Weds.

W will no longer speak with the CT, my feeling is that we're in crisis.  

She won't leave the house because she knows it's a bad idea legally (for her) - and we are at an impasse re: putting together an affair recovery plan.

Then yesterday, I learned that her AP is the coach of D5's soccer team. I'm not sure if W knew this all along or not - I would not be surprised if she lied about this. Of course I put my foot down and now we need to pull our kid from soccer with all her friends. 1st session is tomorrow, and I've been cast as selfish for compromising our daughter's activities and development.

This all feels like it's heading toward additional blowups with kids in the crossfire. W has not sent a NC letter to the AP. I sense that one of the major underlying contributing factors to the affair was her perceived need to gain power - in our relationship, or in general - and now all of the things that she needs to do to try to address the affair are causing tremendous stress and conflict - for her. Both of us, really. It's the resistance to criticism thing. Even more potent when the criticism is real!

I am shaking with anger and fear.

[once removed]

this could all go one of a number of ways, and its truly not clear, at this point which path its headed. i also dont think that any of them are going to happen on a timeline that you would prefer.

sometimes (usually) it gets worse before it gets better. sometimes, it only get worse. what youre experiencing is not out of the ordinary, but it is troubling, obviously for you personally, but from an outsiders perspective as well.

and now all of the things that she needs to do to try to address the affair are causing tremendous stress and conflict - for her. Both of us, really. It's the resistance to criticism thing. Even more potent when the criticism is real!

this is a very good read on whats happening.

shes in full blown denial, and threats of self harm and ending couples therapy are clear indications of emotional fragility.

you can push, where reasonable and prudent. it may ultimately help, and it may ultimately mean the end of your marriage.

you can let it go entirely, let her sort of "go on her journey", and it may ultimately help, and it may ultimately mean the end of your marriage.

you can follow a middle of the road approach, do some of both, choose what hills you are prepared to die on or go to the mat for.

i would strongly encourage continuing to work with a professional on your own. it sets an example, number one. number two, you need an outlet (we can be that too) for the really complex things you are going through, some of which may still be ahead. you have resentment now, you may have greater resentment later, its possible that if she saw the light and fully repented tomorrow, that you might have even greater resentment. there is hurt, there is betrayal, and there is the frustration of living with someone that cannot see the damage she has done and continues to do.

its a seriously tall order to be able to process all of that, and to be mindful and strategic in the process. youre doing it better than anyone ive ever seen. i only wish that there were better options in the short term.

[EyesUp]

@once removed.

Thanks again.  I had a debrief session with the CT, who mentioned that she has never seen anyone react like my wife did last week.  The CT actually said that we should not pursue a new couples program until my wife has made progress with her own issues. 

Yes, I am actively working with a professional for myself.  Not sure 1 hour per week comes close to what I could use.  

My therapist thinks my wife may have PTSD from multiple unresolved traumas, which manifests as BPD-ish behaviors.  She's advocated an intensive treatment program, and there are some excellent options near us - the trick would be getting my wife to voluntarily enter such a program.

In the meantime, I feel like I have a knife stuck in my chest.  

My wife is in full-blown denial mode and doing anything possible to look forward and avoid talking about what's happened.

Starting to speak with lawyers just to get a sense of options.  I'm pretty sure that if I served my wife papers, she might have a breakdown that could lead to another Section 12.  I hate to think of this approach as a force function, but I don't think I can live with the status quo.

[EyesUp]

Any chance someone has a recommendation for an atty in MA / Middlesex County?

Too much to describe, but suffice to say that we are not heading in a good direction and I need to become much more proactive to protect myself and my kids.

Any advice or referrals re: divorce resources for men in my area would be greatly appreciated.

[once removed]

it would be good to post on the Family Law board for resources in your area.

im sorry its come to this, EyesUp