From Mr. kells76

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Continuing from here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=345665.0

I asked my DH if he would be willing to write out his thoughts. I think it will help the group here to hear from him unmediated by me. So, here he is:

...

This is the situation that I am dealing with. I would appreciate any advice or feedback from anyone who has insight into this situation.
Background: I have two daughters from an earlier marriage, ages 12 and 14. We divorced in 2011 after 11 years married. She remarried in 2012, I remarried in 2013. Step-dad has to be the hero, and the kids see him that way, mom has bpd traits. Step-mom [that's me, kells76] and I have been in counseling together since we started dating. There is very little communication between the households, and the households are diametrically opposed on almost every issue-politically, socially, spiritually, theologically, etc.
My extended family live out of state and I have a little sister with Downs who has been in and out of the hospital lately with kidney issues, so it has been on my mind to visit them. I bought tickets for us to fly out to see them. When we were in the planning stages, the kids were excited about the prospect. However, once the trip became a reality, the kids began to voice concerns. These amounted to: traveling through an international airport (even if safety precautions were observed); spending time around my family (again, covid); and missing time with another family whom my kids and their mom’s household are co-quarentining with (these friends are moving overseas at the end of the month and do not want to be exposed to anything before they leave).
My wife and I tried to be flexible with our plan and suggest some alternate dates to fly that would put our trip after their friends leave, so that they would not miss out on time with them. This is the email that I sent:

[check kells76's thread "Again" for the email: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=345665.0 ]

This is the response I got:

Kids' Dad;

From my conversation with the girls, the issue is much more complicated than just missing out on the Friends. Both kids (as well as Stepdad and I) are concerned about safety regardless of the date of the trip. Postponing helps with the issue of missing the Friends but runs into further complexities. I would encourage you to address this conflict in therapy with SD14's counselor. I understand you are already meeting with SD14's C with SD14. I do not want to do anything to get in the way of your relationship with SD14 and SD12. I think therapy is the best place to work out these issues. I and Stepdad are happy to join you in a therapy session if that is something you're interested in arranging. For now I would definitely cancel the 14-16th tickets as seeing the Friends is clearly a high priority for both kids.
Thanks so much,
Kids' Mom

When I talked with the kids, they made it clear that they felt unsafe traveling, but that additionally, they felt that if they went, they would be responsible for their step-father missing work, as they had been told that if they went, then the household would have to self quarantine for two weeks once the kids returned.

I feel stuck, as any attempt I make to work with mom is deflected back onto the kids. I don’t think that they are being put in a healthy position being made to run interference between the parents, but it does not seem that mom will engage with me in making parenting decisions any time soon. I think that the kids are being maneuvered into an adversarial role against me, but that it is being presented to them (and to me) as something healthy and loving and “supportive of their voices.” I appreciate their offer to meet with me in therapy, but the counsellor they mention is specifically for our daughter, and for the parent-child relationship, they have made it clear that they are not our (the parents’) therapist.
I would like to see a win-win solution to this situation. I would like to see my kids not burdened with responsibilities that are not theirs to bear. I would like to have them experience being heard and having their concerns valued, but also trust that their parents are making the best decisions possible in this situation. I would like to be respected as a parent, and as a co-parent.

I am well aware that some if not many of the things that I want I may not get, and that the wisest course for me to take in this situation may not involve getting what I want. Thats fine, at the end of the day, I want to act in a way that promotes what is in my kids’ best interests, and reflects what I believe to be true. But right now I’m having a hard time seeing what that course is.

Any help and advice would be much appreciated. Thanks,

Mr. kells76

[kells76]

Continuing from here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=345665.0

I asked my DH if he would be willing to write out his thoughts. I think it will help the group here to hear from him unmediated by me. So, here he is:

...

This is the situation that I am dealing with. I would appreciate any advice or feedback from anyone who has insight into this situation.
Background: I have two daughters from an earlier marriage, ages 12 and 14. We divorced in 2011 after 11 years married. She remarried in 2012, I remarried in 2013. Step-dad has to be the hero, and the kids see him that way, mom has bpd traits. Step-mom [that's me, kells76] and I have been in counseling together since we started dating. There is very little communication between the households, and the households are diametrically opposed on almost every issue-politically, socially, spiritually, theologically, etc.
My extended family live out of state and I have a little sister with Downs who has been in and out of the hospital lately with kidney issues, so it has been on my mind to visit them. I bought tickets for us to fly out to see them. When we were in the planning stages, the kids were excited about the prospect. However, once the trip became a reality, the kids began to voice concerns. These amounted to: traveling through an international airport (even if safety precautions were observed); spending time around my family (again, covid); and missing time with another family whom my kids and their mom’s household are co-quarentining with (these friends are moving overseas at the end of the month and do not want to be exposed to anything before they leave).
My wife and I tried to be flexible with our plan and suggest some alternate dates to fly that would put our trip after their friends leave, so that they would not miss out on time with them. This is the email that I sent:

[check kells76's thread "Again" for the email: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=345665.0 ]

This is the response I got:

Kids' Dad;

From my conversation with the girls, the issue is much more complicated than just missing out on the Friends. Both kids (as well as Stepdad and I) are concerned about safety regardless of the date of the trip. Postponing helps with the issue of missing the Friends but runs into further complexities. I would encourage you to address this conflict in therapy with SD14's counselor. I understand you are already meeting with SD14's C with SD14. I do not want to do anything to get in the way of your relationship with SD14 and SD12. I think therapy is the best place to work out these issues. I and Stepdad are happy to join you in a therapy session if that is something you're interested in arranging. For now I would definitely cancel the 14-16th tickets as seeing the Friends is clearly a high priority for both kids.
Thanks so much,
Kids' Mom

When I talked with the kids, they made it clear that they felt unsafe traveling, but that additionally, they felt that if they went, they would be responsible for their step-father missing work, as they had been told that if they went, then the household would have to self quarantine for two weeks once the kids returned.

I feel stuck, as any attempt I make to work with mom is deflected back onto the kids. I don’t think that they are being put in a healthy position being made to run interference between the parents, but it does not seem that mom will engage with me in making parenting decisions any time soon. I think that the kids are being maneuvered into an adversarial role against me, but that it is being presented to them (and to me) as something healthy and loving and “supportive of their voices.” I appreciate their offer to meet with me in therapy, but the counsellor they mention is specifically for our daughter, and for the parent-child relationship, they have made it clear that they are not our (the parents’) therapist.
I would like to see a win-win solution to this situation. I would like to see my kids not burdened with responsibilities that are not theirs to bear. I would like to have them experience being heard and having their concerns valued, but also trust that their parents are making the best decisions possible in this situation. I would like to be respected as a parent, and as a co-parent.

I am well aware that some if not many of the things that I want I may not get, and that the wisest course for me to take in this situation may not involve getting what I want. Thats fine, at the end of the day, I want to act in a way that promotes what is in my kids’ best interests, and reflects what I believe to be true. But right now I’m having a hard time seeing what that course is.

Any help and advice would be much appreciated. Thanks,

Mr. kells76

[ForeverDad]

Yeah, win-win is not very likely, the ex will keep "moving the goalposts" anytime you propose another solution or get close to success.

Sadly, we look for the perfect time to separate, the perfect way to divorce, the perfect way to... whatever.  You've been there, done that.  So have we.  Sometimes we have to make a decision we don't like.  Other times we can say, "I have considered the matter from every possible angle and this is what I will do.  Others may not like it but they wouldn't like any solution I decide upon.  Hence I will do what I feel is reasonable and appropriate."

Notice I didn't quite tell you what to do, right?  I suspect the kids are, to a greater or lesser extent, feeling stuck in the middle, or at the least manipulated.  You can take that dread of choosing off their shoulders.  In time your decision might even give them some relief that they can just enjoy the visit and still see their friends one last time.

I previously asked about the huge obstacle of scary airports and airplane travel.  I was pondering... Driving would take a few hours longer for travel and would delay the return but I would caution about sharing such a decision too soon, otherwise the ex would focus on yet other objections to further influence the kids.  Or convince the kids not to go to you for the exchange beforehand.  Just make sure you get the kids at the start of your parenting time.  Yes, driving would take longer and might force you to come back later.  So what?  Once you are on your trip and there then you can mention it will take longer to get back.  (After all, the obstacle is that they might get infected, bypassing the airports and airplanes avoids that excuse.  And I seriously doubt your younger sibling and family will be infected.)  What's court doing to do to you for returning a day or two late, especially if you offered make-up time the next exchange?  Quite probably it'll never end up with the court or other officials.

My perspective... we here are so often focused on following the orders strictly and really really trying to be overly fair.  It's a part of our nature, probably too how we got into our respective messes.   Can you let go of your need to be overly fair and overly nice and overly obedient and do what you know you probably decide as the reasonable yet proactive parent?

[worriedStepmom]

My favorite uncle had Downs.  He lived to be in his late 50s, and I treasure every moment that I had with him.  My grandmother always said that people with Downs were angels on earth, and then called back too quickly. I am glad you are going to visit your sister/SIL.

The decision itself does not need to be made with the help of a therapist.  That is mom's way of minimizing dad's right to be a parent and to make parenting decisions.  From my experience with SD13's uBPDmom, that's code for "go see the T so they'll explain why you're wrong"

You know mom's position (COVID is scary and everyone's going to die BUT it's perfectly safe for stepdad to go to work AND for us to spend lots of time with this other family).  Her position is not going to change, and neither of you are going to convince the other.  The bottom line, though, is that mom doesn't get to make decisions for your house or your time with the kids. 

The girls are not old enough and mature enough to make this decision.  They are children and should not be responsible for decisions for the health and wellbeing of their families or their friends.

What does that leave?

--You, as the parent and stepparent, make the decision that you think is best.  That may mean you postpone your trip.  It may mean you drive.  It may mean that you wait until the girls are in the car and then tell them what you have planned.

---Mom does whatever mom needs to do in reaction to your choices.

--You and the kids go to therapy immediately when you get back to talk about how they feel about the choice being taken out of their hands - and possibly about how they feel about being blamed for someone else's choices.  This seems like an excellent setup for a good therapist to work on boundaries and appropriate roles (parent vs child).

[Notwendy]

The issue with Covid-19 is for most situations, there really isn't a "right" answer. It's mainly a balance of risk/benefit. Anytime you come in contact with another person there's risk involved. The best we can do is minimize that risk while also minimizing the consequences of taking that risk. ie- going to get food at the store is a risk but not going and having no food isn't good either. You can say the same for going to work- that's a risk but no income is also an issue.

Problems come from disagreements on what risks are worth taking.

Your ex has BPD and her "wants" - her feelings are paramount so naturally- your "wants " may not be worth the risk, while her "wants" are. The trip is not essential like food or work but it is something you want and may consider taking the risk to do it, but she's not likely to see it that way.

I agree it should not be the girls' responsibility to make decisions. Also, there is an obvious solution to step dad needing to quarantine. Have the girls quarantine with you for 2 weeks after the trip.

I would also check with a lawyer in this situation. You don't want to be accused of negligence if you take the trip.

You also need to consider- what if someone does get Covid? It's not possible to know for sure but we do know some risk factors- age, pre-existing conditions.

The person in this situation who seems to be at highest risk is your sister with kidney problems and I think people with Down syndrome can have immunity issues and also heart problems. The decision might be more about her than anyone else. But I also understand that it's important to see her too. You might want to consider going on your own to visit, which reduces the risk to her.

[kells76]

It's me this time, kells76

Yeah, win-win is not very likely, the ex will keep "moving the goalposts" anytime you propose another solution or get close to success.

Right, no argument there. That is how she operates.

I suspect the kids are, to a greater or lesser extent, feeling stuck in the middle, or at the least manipulated.  You can take that dread of choosing off their shoulders.

Yes, they are being put in the middle and manipulated. Again, agreement.

In time your decision might even give them some relief that they can just enjoy the visit and still see their friends one last time.

The sticking point at least for me here is that Mom is constructing it so they CAN'T enjoy the visit. The whole time they'll know that it'll be "their fault" that Stepdad "can't" go to work and is "forced" to take time off. And because the kids can't be mad at Mom or Stepdad, they'll be mad at DH. I don't foresee any relaxation for them.

Yes, driving would take longer and might force you to come back later.  So what?  Once you are on your trip and there then you can mention it will take longer to get back.

If the conflict were "only" between DH and Mom then I would recommend this to DH. Again, the way it's set up, (a) the kids are now expressing fear of "will we social distance from grandparents? will we social distance from aunt?" (so, yes, moving goalposts away from "seeing our friends" to "afraid of airports" to "even if we drive we'll be around other people"), and (b), the kids would be told by Mom how untrustworthy DH is for "tricking" them and "lying" to them about the length of the trip.

Can you let go of your need to be overly fair and overly nice and overly obedient and do what you know you probably decide as the reasonable yet proactive parent?

If Mom wouldn't use that as ammunition to undermine DH's relationship with the kids, then yeah, I wish. Any "take charge" or "assertion" by DH is framed by Mom as "he doesn't listen to you [like we do], he heard how you felt and made you go anyway, you can't trust him". So the relationship would be sacrificed.

...

I am glad you are going to visit your sister/SIL

Yeah, she's a treasure!

The decision itself does not need to be made with the help of a therapist.  That is mom's way of minimizing dad's right to be a parent and to make parenting decisions.  From my experience with SD13's uBPDmom, that's code for "go see the T so they'll explain why you're wrong"

I'm really glad you get that.

The girls are not old enough and mature enough to make this decision.  They are children and should not be responsible for decisions for the health and wellbeing of their families or their friends

Yes.

You, as the parent and stepparent, make the decision that you think is best.  That may mean you postpone your trip.  It may mean you drive.  It may mean that you wait until the girls are in the car and then tell them what you have planned.

So, like I brought up with FD's comments above, the "moving targets" have been:

1. "We want to see our friends before they go"
us: we offered to change days of trip
2. "But we don't want to go through an airport"
us: we offered to drive
3. "But we might not social distance from grandparents, and they've been inside a hospital"
us: ...

So I don't know if I'm getting to the core of this, but the center of this toxic soup is how Mom/Stepdad interpret DH's actions to the kids. If he's assertive about "what we're doing is going on the trip" and he tells them after they get in the car (for example), Mom's dialog with them will be "I'm sorry DH didn't trust you enough to tell you what was going on... Did you feel betrayed? Do you need a break from him in order to feel better?" type BS. Where it all sounds so helpful and good until you actually listen to it. But the kids aren't mature enough to get what Mom will do to them. Mom will punish DH through them by manipulating them if he takes them on the trip. And she'll make sure she emotionally punishes them, too, by letting them know "Of course I support you doing whatever you want, I don't have a problem if you go on the trip, I love SIL... it's just that Stepdad can't go to work for 2 weeks if you go. Of course, do whatever you feel like".

I think that's it -- we're in the "Solomon and the baby" scenario, where both the moms are like "It's my baby" so Solomon says OK, well, how about I cut it in half so you both get an even share? The fake mom says "Sounds good, that's fair" and the real mom is like "Just give it to her if it'll keep my baby alive".

I feel like that's where we're at -- it would be cutting the kids in half to "make" them go... in the sense of enforcing/asserting that DH does in fact have the right to decide what we do during his PT with the kids. Sure, we'd "get our fair share". But Mom has no compunction about "cutting them in half" to punish DH.

Driving instead of flying won't fix it, changing the dates won't fix it... because the real "problem" is Mom's fear and control, and NOTHING we do will fix that.

So, going back:

What does that leave?

--You, as the parent and stepparent, make the decision that you think is best.

I want the kids to come. I think they need to face a lot of fears. I don't think they're emotionally strong enough to withstand the emotional punishment waiting for them.

So I am thinking that the best thing for them is for DH to assertively tell them "This is too much for you to decide. You have been placed in the middle of an incredibly stressful situation. It's the job of adults to get you out of the middle. I love you too much to leave you there. So you are NOT going on the trip and that's final."

--You and the kids go to therapy immediately when you get back to talk about how they feel about the choice being taken out of their hands - and possibly about how they feel about being blamed for someone else's choices.  This seems like an excellent setup for a good therapist to work on boundaries and appropriate roles (parent vs child).

I will suggest that DH at least talk with SD14's T about this situation.

...

Your ex has BPD and her "wants" - her feelings are paramount so naturally- your "wants " may not be worth the risk, while her "wants" are. The trip is not essential like food or work but it is something you want and may consider taking the risk to do it, but she's not likely to see it that way.

Yup.

I agree it should not be the girls' responsibility to make decisions. Also, there is an obvious solution to step dad needing to quarantine. Have the girls quarantine with you for 2 weeks after the trip.

Agreed about the kids deciding. I worry that suggesting the kids Q with us for 2 weeks (while I love the idea as a clever win) would be "solving the surface of the problem" while enabling the toxicity to continue "underneath" -- I can envision Mom saying "Oh, I'm totally OK with that, it's just that the kids shared with me how they felt about it, and they don't want to". And I'm getting really tired of offering Mom opportunities to "ask the kids what they want", because it just builds more triangles. I still think as part of a "last ditch" email it might be worth it... even just to see her reaction 

I would also check with a lawyer in this situation. You don't want to be accused of negligence if you take the trip.

Good call.

The person in this situation who seems to be at highest risk is your sister with kidney problems and I think people with Down syndrome can have immunity issues and also heart problems. The decision might be more about her than anyone else

My SIL's parents are OK with it... my assumption is they have the best "read" on her health.

You might want to consider going on your own to visit, which reduces the risk to her.

Overall, as sad as I'll be if/that the kids don't go, that will probably be what happens.

...

And so what if the kids don't go this time?

Is that just appeasing Mom? Will she be emboldened to keep trying this sh!t every single time we want to do something outside HER comfort zone? "Oh sure kids, you can go to the grocery store... I have no problem with that, I support you doing that... but Stepdad will have to stay home. I mean, it's your call"

Is that her plan? Because there will never be an end to this virus. And "even if there were", it wouldn't be enough of an "end" to satisfy here. You see the issue?

But I can also see, hopefully, it making a big statement to the kids if DH tells them "I'm deciding for you. I'm deciding that you're not going on this trip this time, and that's final. I'm doing that because it's not your job to decide this kind of thing."

[worriedStepmom]

My main concern with the "give in and do what mom wants in order to get the kids out of the middle" is that it is reiterating that mom and/or the girls are in control.  It reinforces the parentification - the YOU children MUST figure out how to fix the situation to make everyone happy or else YOU children must not do fun thing.  Also, the vibe of "dad knew what he was asking you to do was wrong, and that's why he changed his mind.  Good for you for standing up to him!"

I think this dynamic really, really needs to be explored in therapy, with SD present.

[I Am Redeemed]

Have you considered contacting the therapist with the situation and the above email from the mom just for input?

Is there time to meet with the T before the trip? I agree this dynamic needs some light shed on it in T because of the impact it's having on the kids.

What if mom's main goal isn't that the kids stay home from the trip, but rather, setting up a "no win" situation? I would'nt be surprised if she actually, truly, didn't care whether they went or not as long as your H looks bad no matter what decision is made.

[livednlearned]

I am thinking that the best thing for them is for DH to assertively tell them "This is too much for you to decide. You have been placed in the middle of an incredibly stressful situation. It's the job of adults to get you out of the middle. I love you too much to leave you there. So you are NOT going on the trip and that's final."

I think that's the closest to win-win I can imagine for this awful scenario. It's sort of like not losing, as opposed to straight up losing. 

The one thing I might do if I were in this position is for Mr. kells76 to somehow write it down ... if the girls don't see beloved SIL and something happens, I can see bpdmom and stepdad rewriting the narrative in a way that makes it look like Mr. kells76 made it hard for them to go. That's not an issue in the short term, but I can imagine SD12 and SD14 looking back on this when they're older, trying to puzzle together what happened and only having brainwashed memory as a guide. "Remember dad said he didn't want you to go."

I know this is beside the point, but bpdmom/stepdad sure are milking covid for control purposes.

[kells76]

DH reviewed all y'all's responses last night. He stayed calm and I think is grateful to hear some other perspectives.

He agrees with WSM that the whole invitation to "talk about it with the kids' T" is total BS.

He had a insight last night into Mom's email: all this stuff about "I would encourage you to address this conflict in therapy with SD14's counselor" is her saying "I'm not the problem... it's not my responsibility... it's not my fault. You're the problem, it's your fault".

So in the same breath she's saying "I'm not getting in the way of your relationship... and it's not my fault there's conflict". Abdicating responsibility.

...

We are trying to figure out if there is anything to even email her back about, because her email is so slick and toxic.

The closest we can pinpoint is where she says "Stepdad and I have concerns" but she doesn't specify what they are. So it is a question if it's worth it to email back saying "Thanks for sharing that you and Stepdad have concerns. Will you please list them out and email them back? Would love to work together to find a compromise while following CDC guidelines" or something. And then get some emails with us offering to switch the weekend of the trip, and then offer to not fly... so, paper trail of us being reasonable and flexible.

DH considered offering going to mediation with her but he is wary of opening up a forum for her to just bring up all her grievances from the past. I think it could be good to use mediation to nail down some guidelines during covid... but even if we get guidelines agreed on and signed, that won't stop her from being manipulative, and that's the real problem.

We are both on the same page that this trip isn't the hill to die on... so any back and forth emails trying to make it work are basically just making a paper trail that we tried. I don't know what the paper trail will be for -- maybe like LnL said, so the kids know we tried.

The relationship with the T is new for SD14 and for DH. I don't think it is yet strong enough to start having these conversations about "how did you feel when Mom said if you went, then Stepdad couldn't go to work". It's still in the trust building phase.

And then also, even if we "make compromises" in emails, or go to mediation and "establish guidelines", she still has her trump card she can play of "oh, I support the kids doing all this stuff, it's just that I'm pregnant so that's why I just feel so concerned". Recall, she's a surrogate right now.

DH had a good perspective that he doesn't want to make their lives difficult just to make their lives difficult, and he gets that different people have different levels of concern. He isn't trying to control what precautions Mom/Stepdad take or don't take. He just wishes it would have some traction if he pointed out "hey, look, Stepdad goes to work and wears a mask, but he works with the public... how does he know who just flew in from wherever? And if that's safe and OK, why isn't seeing family safe and OK, if we take the exact same precautions?"

...

Part of me wants to get her in an "arm lock" where she at least has the stones to say "I disagree, I do not want the kids to go". Even THAT is something to work with. But she will NOT take responsibility for herself. All the choices are the kids' choices. What can she do? She's a pregnant adult but she won't say No. She has to get the kids to make choices that keep her safe, instead of her making choices for herself.

...

I really don't know what to do. DH mentioned last night that he remembers the kids were really excited about this trip until they talked to Mom about it. We'd been planning to fly as a practice trip, because we've had a bigger trip planned for next spring (also flying, but longer, and also with DH's folks). They were excited about this... for a while.

Also, back in May or June (I think), I helped SD14 sign up for HS classes. Her HS offered a free day camp-type "intro to HS" week. She sounded REALLY excited about it, so I told her that DH and I were fine with it, and she needed to check with Mom because it was mostly during her time with Mom.

The camp was supposed to happen this week. I asked if it worked out and she said no, because "we couldn't find the info".

SD14 is smart and resourceful, and can search for things online. She has my phone number. She had wanted to do this camp, and the HS had implemented safety measures (spread out sessions etc). I didn't push when she told me "we couldn't find the info" but now I am wondering if I do push.

Maybe ask her "I'm confused and want to understand... you seemed so excited about the camp. What happened?" IDK... I just don't know if "pushing" her to "wonder to herself" why, when she gets excited about something, she "somehow" isn't able to do it...

...

So what would you guys do here? What would you email back -- if at all? And to what purpose or goal? Would you "buy time" by "trying to compromise" over emails, to allow SD14 & T to build a more therapeutic relationship? Or...?

[kells76]

I guess the "what would you do" is sort of a medium term game plan question. What pieces do you see in play, how do we arrange them, what timelines are we looking at, when to fold and when hang on. I hope it will help us stay sane if we can "paint by numbers" for a few months or more just to survive.

Moving parts:

-SD14 developing strong relationship with T: months or more
-Trip to see DH's mom & stepdad & sister (in poor health): later this month or next month, if she doesn't get worse
-Longer trip with DH's family: next spring
-DH's dad coming to visit from out of state: next month (kids only vaguely know about this, not sure if Mom knows, we haven't told her)
-creating email paper trail of attempted cooperation: days/weeks
-?