Here we go again

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

SD13's uBPDmom finally hired a lawyer and has filed a modification asking for a "step-up plan" that would give her more time with SD (she currently only gets EOW from 10 am - 6 pm on Sat/Sun) if she meets certain criteria.  She also wants equal rights to SD's mental health treatment and for the judge to order family therapy with mom and SD13.  The hearing is August 31st - the first day of remote schooling.

Having filed, mom is FULL of entitlement. She gets 6 extra summer days, and she's rescheduled those multiple times.  Monday she asked to postpone her other 2 days this week, and H told her to choose carefully because we wouldn't reschedule again unless someone was sick.  mom got huffy, said we HAD to reschedule whenever she wanted, and then finally said she'd keep today's visit, since we were so upset about it.

After 7 hours, mom brought SD back.  Apparently mom has had full-on COVID symptoms ALL DAY and picked SD up anyway.  mom told SD that H was mean and said she wouldn't get to make up her regularly scheduled weekend.

I'm furious. I kept SD away from the other kids and got their dad to come pick them up for now. The only silver lining is written proof that mom is still blaming H for things and that mom is still making awful parenting decisions.

I have plenty of evidence to keep SD out of family therapy and keep mom from getting mental health rights.  We don't have a lot to oppose the custody change.  mom is mostly behaving when messaging H, so not a lot of written evidence of the crazy until this week.  SD is really stressed by mom, though, and is adamant that she DOES NOT want more time with mom.

We should meet with our L tomorrow or Monday.

[worriedStepmom]

SD13's uBPDmom finally hired a lawyer and has filed a modification asking for a "step-up plan" that would give her more time with SD (she currently only gets EOW from 10 am - 6 pm on Sat/Sun) if she meets certain criteria.  She also wants equal rights to SD's mental health treatment and for the judge to order family therapy with mom and SD13.  The hearing is August 31st - the first day of remote schooling.

Having filed, mom is FULL of entitlement. She gets 6 extra summer days, and she's rescheduled those multiple times.  Monday she asked to postpone her other 2 days this week, and H told her to choose carefully because we wouldn't reschedule again unless someone was sick.  mom got huffy, said we HAD to reschedule whenever she wanted, and then finally said she'd keep today's visit, since we were so upset about it.

After 7 hours, mom brought SD back.  Apparently mom has had full-on COVID symptoms ALL DAY and picked SD up anyway.  mom told SD that H was mean and said she wouldn't get to make up her regularly scheduled weekend.

I'm furious. I kept SD away from the other kids and got their dad to come pick them up for now. The only silver lining is written proof that mom is still blaming H for things and that mom is still making awful parenting decisions.

I have plenty of evidence to keep SD out of family therapy and keep mom from getting mental health rights.  We don't have a lot to oppose the custody change.  mom is mostly behaving when messaging H, so not a lot of written evidence of the crazy until this week.  SD is really stressed by mom, though, and is adamant that she DOES NOT want more time with mom.

We should meet with our L tomorrow or Monday.

[ForeverDad]

Has it been a full year since the last custody or parenting schedule change?  Many courts require at least a year, sometimes more, between changes.  Well, unless the parents agree to the changes.  Obviously your H had better not 'agree' to changes if that is the case with your court.

If the above does not resolve the filing, then SD13 is old enough to have a voice regarding a potential custody or parenting change.  It is called an in camera interview and no, the parents are not present.  Typically it is with the judge, GAL, custody evaluator, therapist or other professionals so they can assess the child's wishes without overt parental influence.  If this is possible then SD should share what she sees as in her best interests.  If she would be distressed by more time with her mother then she should share that.

My son was 11 when my ex's lawyer filed for an in camera interview with the Guardian ad Litem (GAL, son's lawyer) and magistrate.  I already had custody and was in court to get majority time.  The court's decision never cited anything he said but did state that son was more comfortable when talking about me, with better eye contact.  That's what meant more to these professionals, not necessarily the words but the less obvious clues.

A side story... when the court clerk called me to schedule the interview, she specifically asked when it was convenient for ME to pick him up from school and bring him.  They had no wish for my ex to bring him!  I believe they didn't want her to pressure/influence him by transporting him or even by her presence sitting outside in the lobby.

[kells76]

While I know that nobody ACTUALLY wants SD13 to spend more time with Mom, I wonder if there's a way to "hoist her by her own petard" if you will. She says she's all about wanting more time with SD13 in the step up plan... but you know she can barely use the time she has.

So, can there be some kind of pushback of "OK, we would go for the step up plan only if Mom uses her existing days on the exact days they are scheduled" (or something phrased differently)?

Or it could be even more firm: "Mom has forfeited 34% of her days over the last 6 months and has rescheduled 57% of the remaining days. Mom has returned SD13 early 78% of the time. We do not see evidence that Mom will use the extra time she is requesting, will keep the time on the scheduled days, or will use all the time on a day. We propose sticking to the current agreement and giving Mom an opportunity to demonstrate consistency: 0% forfeits, 5% reschedules, and 5% return early maximum. Then we'll be open to discussing the step up plan."

[worriedStepmom]

She can ask for a modification at any time based on changed circumstances.  I'm pretty sure her changed circumstances are that her dad died (she blames him for causing "tension" in the house). 

mom helpfully sent a long message today detailing her legal strategy and asking H to share his.  That's going straight to our L.  She wants to use attendance at family therapy as the criteria for the step-up order.   mom would like us to respond with our legal strategy.  I responded with more questions about hers 

H is leaning towards asking the L if we can request that SD get a GAL.  Most of the judges in our area don't like to talk to the kids directly. I think as SD gets older and mom tries to hide more of her behavior from H, SD is going to need an advocate of her own.

I'm cautious about using adherence to the exact custody times as a step-up requirement.  One of the big stressors for SD right now is that mom is paranoid that H will send her to jail if she's late to drop-offs.  I don't want to make that worse for SD.

And this is the problem in a nutshell - mom is incapable of keeping her stress from SD and we can't cover every single possibility in a legal document.

[kells76]

She can ask for a modification at any time based on changed circumstances.

Am I remembering correctly that she does this about once a year? In your area, would that be considered excessive, or just "eh, that's how it can go"?

So you can't quite request a "gatekeeper" order, I suppose?

H is leaning towards asking the L if we can request that SD get a GAL.  Most of the judges in our area don't like to talk to the kids directly. I think as SD gets older and mom tries to hide more of her behavior from H, SD is going to need an advocate of her own.

That sounds worth pursuing. It's like -- if every year like clockwork Mom pulls this stuff, and every year you guys have done "the usual" and it mostly works to protect SD, maybe switching it to a higher level of protection would be the variable change that would make an impact on Mom's moves. If that makes sense. That is to say, if it's been "wash rinse repeat" for so many years, maybe making a big change in your response strategy could make a big change in dampening her modification request schedule.

mom would like us to respond with our legal strategy.

hahahahahaha! ah ha ha ha ha ha ha! Just... wow. As an aside, we had some wifi problems at home the other day when SD14 had her telecounseling appt. Apparently she must have told Mom about it, because Mom helpfully offered to DH that "SD14 can do her part of the appointment at our house". Yeah right. Uh, privacy? I think not 

I responded with more questions about hers

Well played.

And this is the problem in a nutshell - mom is incapable of keeping her stress from SD and we can't cover every single possibility in a legal document.

Yeah, in a way, we're in the same boat. With our whole "trying to go on the trip to see family" deal, there were no legal hurdles for us, just the knowledge that Mom and Stepdad would not be able to keep their feelings away from the kids. And you can't legislate that the other parent manage their emotions and have appropriate boundaries... I wish.

[ForeverDad]

I'm sure you know a GAL can have a wide range of experience (from gullible to excellent) just like any other therapist, evaluator, lawyer or other professional.  So just any GAL won't do.

My experience... My lawyer finally decided we needed a GAL and he recommended one from a regional children's advocacy group.  She did have a background with children but later I realized her published references seemed more about representing juvenile delinquents in court, not my family's scenario.   The first time we used her she seemed to want a middle ground.  The second time back in court, a couple years later, she was fed up with my ex and left no uncertainty how she assessed my ex.

[worriedStepmom]

kells, this is the third summer in a row we've been in court, but the last two were filed by my H to take time away from mom after she dysregulated.  This is the first time she's filed a modification. 

ForeverDad, I need to find out whether we get input into a GAL or if the court randomly assigns.  I know one in the area who is really good with families facing PDs.

[GaGrl]

I really like the idea of a GAL. That would give your SD a sense that she has a protector and advocate without having to "side" with one parent or another.

She wanted you and H to share your legal strategy?

Ha, ha, ha, ha! ROFL! That is rich.

[worriedStepmom]

uBPDmom's L offered a deal to drop her attempt to get more time if we'd agree to family therapy between SD13 and uBPDmom.

This had been a hard no for us - uBPDmom has caused lots of trauma for SD13 when we've tried to let her be involved in therapy in the past.  However, uBPDmom is making lots of allegations of parental alienation against us and our L is worried that the judge might take her seriously and that temporary orders could be very much in uBPDmom's favor if we don't agree to family therapy.

H decided to agree so that we can have more control over choosing the therapist.  We remembered the advice here and offered to choose 3 therapists and let uBPDmom pick from those.

I'm worried that this is going to be very bad for SD13's mental health.  We're going to look for family therapists that won't have joint sessions, but even so, I worry that there will be backlash from uBPDmom and that it will actually make their relationship worse.  I hate the idea of putting SD13 in the path of more emotional abuse just to have evidence that uBPDmom is the problem.

[kells76]

Your H has 100% decision making about mental health, right?

I get what you're doing with compromising. You don't want to give the appearance of controlling/isolating SD13 (even though you aren't).

So... OK, he offers list of 3 T's and Mom picks one.

Would H have decision making about HOW some of the sessions go? I mean... can he specify in this compromise agreement that "decision making about if/when Mom and SD13 have joint sessions will be made by T and H working together" or something. I don't know the exact wording, but something where the T won't kick things off by a joint session. And H always has the option to step in at any point and say Nope, we're not doing joint sessions.

...

Can SD13's T be allowed to give notes/records to new T, before sessions start?

How much input does SD13 get in your state about how her therapy is structured?

...

I worry that there will be backlash from uBPDmom and that it will actually make their relationship worse. 

Am I guessing correctly -- that even if SD13 and Mom never have a joint session with new T, that's not necessarily really the venue you're worried about -- it's what Mom is going to lay on SD13 during her parenting time?

[worriedStepmom]

Thank you, kells, you are helping me get in the right frame of mind to problem solve.

Would H have decision making about HOW some of the sessions go? I mean... can he specify in this compromise agreement that "decision making about if/when Mom and SD13 have joint sessions will be made by T and H working together" or something. I don't know the exact wording, but something where the T won't kick things off by a joint session. And H always has the option to step in at any point and say Nope, we're not doing joint sessions.
...
Can SD13's T be allowed to give notes/records to new T, before sessions start?

H does have 100% mental health decision making authority but the agreement states that both sides will abide by the recommendations of the family T. 

That means we need to make sure to select the right family T candidates.  These are some of the questions I'm going to ask.
1) Do you meet individually with each person in the beginning, and how do you decide when it is appropriate to have a joint session?
2) Do you work with/consult the parties' individual therapists?
3) Under what circumstances would you recommend discontinuing family therapy?
4) Since the therapy is for SD13 and her mom, how can H provide feedback on what he sees with SD13 or mom?  How will H get feedback on how the sessions are going?
5) How frequently are the sessions usually scheduled (1x/month, 2x/month, etc)?
6) Are you (T) willing to testify in court?

What else?

Am I guessing correctly -- that even if SD13 and Mom never have a joint session with new T, that's not necessarily really the venue you're worried about -- it's what Mom is going to lay on SD13 during her parenting time?

Yes, this is my biggest fear.  We FINALLY got an agreement that seems to have gotten them to a good mostly stable relationship, and I think this is going to send it down the toilet again. 

H is hopeful that with a new T, uBPDmom will be better behaved (she has always hated the last one), and, if she's not, that it might be just what SD needs to have her eyes truly opened to how mom is.

[kells76]

Ooohhh, how about adding something like this -- which seems totally reasonable and within H's purview:

"Mom agrees to keep any and all conversation about the health of the relationship between her and SD13 confined to sessions with the T she selects. Mom agrees that she will not engage SD13 in "how is our relationship going" type discussions at any other time. Mom agrees that if there is any meta discussion of the relationship between her and SD13 in any venue besides the T sessions, then [x, y, and z]"

I don't know the exact wording, but there's got to be some way to put bowling lane bumpers on this thing.

Mom "wants" a step up plan, right? And part of the step up plan is doing T between Mom and SD13? Ok, if Mom truly wants more PT with SD13, and a condition is not just showing up at FT but abiding by the T's recommendations, there's GOT to be some way that Mom forfeits the step up plan if she tries to engage SD13 on certain topics outside the T sessions. Do you get where I'm trying to go on this?

[GaGrl]

Kells, I like those guardrails. That takes a lot of pressure off the child's time with mom.

[worriedStepmom]

I do like that, a lot.  I think that we'll ask the T to make this one of the rules of therapy.  That way, if (when) mom violates it, T can testify that mom does not follow instructions for what's in SD's best interests.  I think that will be more impactful than mom not following rules that H set (the order).

Under the wording our L proposed, H can end the therapy if mom doesn't follow the T's orders.

[kells76]

That is sounding pretty good.

I bet there is a way to pitch that to the new T, or have SD13's current T pitch it. And then it takes both SD13 and your H out of the middle.

I think you are right that it's a matter of When, not If, she can't follow the recommendations.

oohhhh I just thought of a good one to add:

"Both parents will refrain from discussing 'how their relationship is going with SD13' in any form with SD13 outside of a T session unless and until explicitly instructed/allowed to do so by the T."

This might be really, really helpful. Your H would do fine with this, and likely a T would give him a go-ahead really soon. It also wouldn't stop SD13 from telling YOU how things are going with Mom. It also puts H and Mom "on the same level" so she doesn't feel singled out, and it looks a LOT more fair.

[livednlearned]

I hate the idea of putting SD13 in the path of more emotional abuse just to have evidence that uBPDmom is the problem.

It's a pretty specific abuse to use therapy to wound your child, and I totally get that you want to spare SD13 the re-traumatization that she experienced.

It also seems like you have defensible reasons to be cautious about this request.

What do you think about structuring it so that mom has to earn this?

My ex threw a lot of tantrums, mostly about things he wanted to continue doing, that he had been told not to do or had been denied. When he was given reasonable opportunities to earn back status quo, he suddenly didn't want it that bad.

At the very least, it seems like mom needs to demonstrate that she can participate in reasonable requests upfront, and when she does that, when she has shown she is willing to learn and comply, then she can proceed to the next level with some of the guardrails you're proposing.

[worriedStepmom]

uBPdmom picked the family therapist we liked best!

T met with uBPDmom an hour, then separately with SD13 for 45 minutes, then asked to meet with H and me for background.

T gets it.  She gets ALL of it.  She said she won't need to see SD13 for a while; she'll be focusing on trying to get mom stable.  I am SO relieved.  I was scared we'd have to prove ourselves as the more credible ones, and that in the meantime SD would be at risk of emotional abuse.  Now I feel like we have an ally to help us protect SD.

[GaGrl]

That's wonderful news! You must be so encouraged.

[kells76]

 

[worriedStepmom]

T sees it so clearly that uBPDmom has decided to quit seeing T.

She is therefore violating the mediated agreement.  Per that agreement, she doesn't get a second chance to choosing a therapist (and she says she won't see anyone that wants to talk to H or me). 

Now we wait and see if she decides to drop her modification suit or go to court and have to explain to the judge why she quit therapy.

I'm not even angry - this is really, really funny.

[kells76]

From the Department of Big Surprises, huh?

So... does this mean that forevermore, she can't pressure for different family therapy w/ SD to start, because there is only one path for her, and that's seeing this specific T?

That would be a nice break for you guys. And it might be a relief to SD... knowing that Hey, if Mom wants to do family T, then it's Dr. Joe Smith or nobody. That's it. No more surprises.

[worriedStepmom]

Unless she gets a new court order, it's this therapist or no one. 

We just got a message that her lawyer is going to talk to the T and see if T will agree not to talk to H and I anymore.  If T agrees, mom will go back to family therapy.  (I think L is going to make her go back regardless.)

[GaGrl]

It sounds as if her L gets it also.

[mama-wolf]

T sees it so clearly that uBPDmom has decided to quit seeing T.

She is therefore violating the mediated agreement.  Per that agreement, she doesn't get a second chance to choosing a therapist (and she says she won't see anyone that wants to talk to H or me). 

Now we wait and see if she decides to drop her modification suit or go to court and have to explain to the judge why she quit therapy.

I'm not even angry - this is really, really funny.

I am trying to get caught up on some of the threads here and was really glad to see things turn out this way for you!  I know the whole bit about being constantly dragged to court is so stressful and annoying, and completely understand your worry for the therapy being used against SD and causing her more stress.  I am so there with my D11.

With D11 being discharged from her treatment program into outpatient care, we're starting her with a new T who has even more experience with ED.  I'm very nervous about the new T "getting it" as far as the dynamics at play with uBPDxw.  At the very least, I am somewhat reassured that she has quite a bit of experience with high conflict cases like ours, and the T from the ED facility told me she felt good about the call they had earlier in the week...

I do hope I can at some point get to the place where my uBPDxw's antics are just funny.  At least I get less angry, but I still sit here hoping something similar to this situation happens to her in the current tug of war we're dealing with.

I hope things continue on a positive trajectory for you!

mw

[worriedStepmom]

mw, I hope the new T helps your D11.  My SD13's new individual T is only talking to SD right now, which I think is for the best right now.  Let the kids explain what they are experiencing.

I have my fingers crossed for all of our kids.

[worriedStepmom]

After talking to uBPDmom's lawyer, Family T wants to meet with mom and SD13 together weekly to talk about good things in their relationship.  First meeting was yesterday.  SD said it went well.

FT told mom after that the "good" is superficial and SD is afraid to tell mom the bad (SD told FT this).  Mom is predictably spiraling down now, whining about how she sees SO MANY memes saying moms need their kid to call them to say "I love you" .  (To which I yelled at the computer, "this is NOT about what you need, you awful excuse for a parent".  SD was not home.)  Since mom is "bad" for SD, mom won't see  or communicate with her again until SD personally tells her that SD wants to see her.  And she said she'll drop the custody modification.

I forwarded all of it to the FT and told her this is normal and we expect mom to change her mind tomorrow when she hasn't had a call from SD fawning all over her.  Under the current custody agreement, we can argue that mom was threatening to abandon SD and thus gets only supervised visitation, but we're going to wait until after next week's FT appointment to decide what to do.  I'm hoping mom's L or the FT will cool her off before she starts trying to traumatize SD more.

I am SO TIRED of all of this.

[worriedStepmom]

FT quit.  Even if mom changes her mind, no more family therapy.  FT said "you have NO IDEA what I've been through in the last few weeks."  She said there is no hope that family therapy will be successful; mom has too many deep-seated issues that she needs to work through.

FT has talked with mom's L and says mom's L now fully understands what is going on.  We're supposed to expect "a change of approach" soon.

FT said "This went pretty much exactly as you said it would."   And now we manage the fallout.

SD13 is very upset.  She thought the joint session went well and was starting to hope that mom might change and things would get better.  I decided to be brutally honest with her - mom's illness at this point makes it impossible for mom to take on this kind of feedback.  Her anxiety gets too high.  And it's okay for SD to be disappointed or sad or mad about it.

SD decided not to check her email for a while. H or I will check it in a day or so and delete any messages from mom that SD doesn't need to see.

[mart555]

Reading these last two posts is like a crystal ball for me.  I know the same thing is in my future.  Visits have resumed (supervised) after more than year without seeing their mom.  It went well, but I'm waiting for the disaster to happen and then I'll have to pick up the pieces, once again.

[mama-wolf]

Wow, that took quite a turn from yesterday to today.  I'm wondering what level of crazy uBPDmom got with the Family T for her to finally call it.

I'm really sorry your SD13 is going through this.  I think you took the right approach on the honesty about her mom's illness getting in the way and validating her feelings of disappointment, etc.  It's hard to have that hope and then see it crash so soon afterwards.  I'm glad you're screening her emails too, because I imagine mom's behavior will be erratic and hurtful.

I really hope something positive can come out of this at least, as far as custody goes.  I'm guessing you're still on track to be able to push for supervised visits only, though it's a question as to what mom will have her L push for?

  Hang in there...

mart555, I hear you on the fear of when that crisis is going to hit.  With all that we go through, it's really not a question of "if" but rather "when," isn't it?  Which of course contributes to the trauma we experience from feeling like we have to be constantly vigilant.  I still find that I am never able to relax and enjoy good moments, or accept that things are trending well...

mw

[worriedStepmom]

We'd prefer not to go to supervised, if mom can get it together quickly.  We are content to have things stay as they are (no overnights for mom).  Family therapist said we should follow SD's lead - if SD is comfortable, then stay with this schedule, and if the pressure gets to her, go to supervised.  Mom wanted more time, but FT won't recommend that.

We told FT in our meeting with her that we didn't think things would get better but we really didn't want this process to make it worse.  Right now, we're headed down the path to worse.  I feel really sad for SD and for mom right now.   The mental illness is just so strong.