Managing the ball downhill...

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Hi, hope I'm in the right place for advice on parenting with a pwBPD!

Not really sure where to start. I have been with my diagnosed BPD STBxW for 20 or so years. It's always been volatile, she's left a few times but always came back. This time is different. It's different no less because we now have three little girls dd12/10/7 but there's also another man involved. This time it feels like it might stick and she's jumped over many of the emotional hurdles I thought she might turn back from.

She moved out a couple of months ago (as soon as UK lock-down rules permitted house viewings) having given me an ultimatum in Jan that either I move out or she would. I called her on the threat (one of a long string) and she stalled, then Covid rocked up and it changed a lot of things... not least my ability to work from home. Telling the kids was horrible, like really really horrible and a massive mix of emotions for me. She moved out with very little involvement from me (I was intentionally hands off and "it's your thing and nothing to do with me"), with one exception... dd12 refused to go.

Thus far we have a formal but not legally binding parenting plan in place guiding us through short term measures around childcare and have worked amicably through a few hurdles like Birthdays well together... however, there are a zillion small things that concern me and as I suspected my boundaries (and the childrens) are being tested with small little infringements, and some odd and alarming ones. An example of an odd one is 2 occurrences of her dropping dd10 and dd7 at the front of the house and driving off. She makes no attempt to verify that I am in or even do an eye to eye "you have them" gesture (we use the back door so it's not like she would see them come in from the car). One such occasion was because she was late for a taxi picking her up to go to a friends for an evening.  I'm a little stuck on how to tackle these boundary infringements mainly because we are yet to agree finances and I'm very much trying to avoid fuelling her already hot emotional fires... so that's issue #1.

Issue #2 is more complex. dd12 is refusing to even visit W's house, like not even step foot in there. She has a good relationship with W and enjoys seeing her, but refuses to go there. My W blames me for this situation and seems to believe that I am keeping her here in an attempt to avoid loneliness. dd12 is not much of a talker but what she has said is that she doesn't like the house and had a horrible feeling about it when she visited on a viewing... thus in her mind she doesn't want to go and can't be made to go. She's past the age where I can put her over my shoulder and cart her to the new house, plus I'm not prepared to move from my 'coach' spot and risk my relationship with her in an attempt to make her go. I listen to what she does say and have spoken to her seriously telling her that I believe going there is the right thing for her. My wife would very much like me to adopt the perpetrator role and force her out the nest. She believes the best way to do this is by me organising to go out or away and thus dd12 is forced to find alternative care, i think this is just a bit mean especially since I can see and hear how much dd12 will do anything to avoid going to the new house. My belief is that we should work on the feelings rather than attempt to manipulate her into any huge shift. Currently W see's dd12 here and at other peoples homes/holidays. Am I hugely off base with my stance?

I'm currently working from home and have 50/50 parenting agreement for dd7 and dd10 with almost 100% care of dd12 (apart from where W can arrange to see her out of the family home). I have agreement in principle with my employer to support 50% working from home post covid (which is a massive home run).

Looking forward to your words of wisdom.

New-Life

[Enabler]

Hi, hope I'm in the right place for advice on parenting with a pwBPD!

Not really sure where to start. I have been with my diagnosed BPD STBxW for 20 or so years. It's always been volatile, she's left a few times but always came back. This time is different. It's different no less because we now have three little girls dd12/10/7 but there's also another man involved. This time it feels like it might stick and she's jumped over many of the emotional hurdles I thought she might turn back from.

She moved out a couple of months ago (as soon as UK lock-down rules permitted house viewings) having given me an ultimatum in Jan that either I move out or she would. I called her on the threat (one of a long string) and she stalled, then Covid rocked up and it changed a lot of things... not least my ability to work from home. Telling the kids was horrible, like really really horrible and a massive mix of emotions for me. She moved out with very little involvement from me (I was intentionally hands off and "it's your thing and nothing to do with me"), with one exception... dd12 refused to go.

Thus far we have a formal but not legally binding parenting plan in place guiding us through short term measures around childcare and have worked amicably through a few hurdles like Birthdays well together... however, there are a zillion small things that concern me and as I suspected my boundaries (and the childrens) are being tested with small little infringements, and some odd and alarming ones. An example of an odd one is 2 occurrences of her dropping dd10 and dd7 at the front of the house and driving off. She makes no attempt to verify that I am in or even do an eye to eye "you have them" gesture (we use the back door so it's not like she would see them come in from the car). One such occasion was because she was late for a taxi picking her up to go to a friends for an evening.  I'm a little stuck on how to tackle these boundary infringements mainly because we are yet to agree finances and I'm very much trying to avoid fuelling her already hot emotional fires... so that's issue #1.

Issue #2 is more complex. dd12 is refusing to even visit W's house, like not even step foot in there. She has a good relationship with W and enjoys seeing her, but refuses to go there. My W blames me for this situation and seems to believe that I am keeping her here in an attempt to avoid loneliness. dd12 is not much of a talker but what she has said is that she doesn't like the house and had a horrible feeling about it when she visited on a viewing... thus in her mind she doesn't want to go and can't be made to go. She's past the age where I can put her over my shoulder and cart her to the new house, plus I'm not prepared to move from my 'coach' spot and risk my relationship with her in an attempt to make her go. I listen to what she does say and have spoken to her seriously telling her that I believe going there is the right thing for her. My wife would very much like me to adopt the perpetrator role and force her out the nest. She believes the best way to do this is by me organising to go out or away and thus dd12 is forced to find alternative care, i think this is just a bit mean especially since I can see and hear how much dd12 will do anything to avoid going to the new house. My belief is that we should work on the feelings rather than attempt to manipulate her into any huge shift. Currently W see's dd12 here and at other peoples homes/holidays. Am I hugely off base with my stance?

I'm currently working from home and have 50/50 parenting agreement for dd7 and dd10 with almost 100% care of dd12 (apart from where W can arrange to see her out of the family home). I have agreement in principle with my employer to support 50% working from home post covid (which is a massive home run).

Looking forward to your words of wisdom.

New-Life

[Goosey]

Three daughters... and an estranged wife.
Your message is calm and lucid. Seems like you have this situation in focus and in as much control as possible.
Advice? I really am not that position to give advice (made mistakes) but give yourself a lot of credit for putting the children first and foremost.  I’m sure the “angels” on this site will give the clear advice. Take care.

[CoherentMoose]

Can you get dd12 into counseling?  Video counseling perhaps?  In that way you will have professional help in managing the situation.  I agree with you.  She's too old to force and your relationship is more important than trying to solve your STBX's issues with not having dd12 come over.  Your STBX left.  It's her issue to work with dd12 IMHO.  jdc

[GaGrl]

I agree with the need for counseling for dd12. You certainly can't tuck her under your arm and walk her to the car to go to her mom's house. This will be slow and steady.

Is her room and living setup at her mom's house comparable to the situation at your house? She might need some input into the setup there to feel that it's "home."

 dd12 also might be one of those children who has to change slowly. Patience, patience...

Are you planning to stay in your house, or might that change as the divorce progresses?

[Skip]

Hi New-Life;

There are likely to be many many things to be worked out in the upcoming months. I think the style and approach to issue resolution in the beginning is often more important that the issues themselves. You want to set the right tone and one of respect and cooperation in the eyes of the other parent.

It's a tall task for recently divorced parents to evolve from the "war of divorce" to the "co-operative spirit" needed for co-parenting. It will be even trickier in your case as  the "war of divorce" and all those bad emotions on both sides are yet to come.

You are in a period of calm and as much as you can accomplish now will serve you both when things get contentious with the divorce.

Most experts would suggest parallel parenting in the beginning - constructive friendly, but strict adherence to the visitation, clothing, and funding (e.g., phone bills) agreement in place and with the intent of slowly loosing up the boundaries in time (e.g.., 12 months) as mutual respect and cooperation are earned both ways.

She makes no attempt to verify that I am in or even do an eye to eye "you have them" gesture (we use the back door so it's not like she would see them come in from the car). One such occasion was because she was late for a taxi picking her up to go to a friends for an evening.  I'm a little stuck on how to tackle these boundary infringements mainly because we are yet to agree finances and I'm very much trying to avoid fuelling her already hot emotional fires... so that's issue #1.

Do you have co-parenting software in place?

2houses Amicable Coparently Our Family Wizard Talking Parents The Family Core

If not, I'd start there. 1) It provides structure to the process (and its a third party structure, not one either of you is creating as you go along) and 2) helps both parties with a independent source of what is conventional. It also provides a documentation of the co-parenting experience.

These programs outline good parameters for exchanges. And it would be better to reference the program's suggestions for healthy co-parenting rather than your expectations.

Issue #2 is more complex. dd12 is refusing to even visit W's house, like not even step foot in there. She has a good relationship with W and enjoys seeing her, but refuses to go there. My W blames me for this situation and seems to believe that I am keeping her here in an attempt to avoid loneliness.

This is not unusual at all and you two should be able to resolve it in time. Getting her to a counselor would be very helpful for dd12, mom (so she can be guided by a third party on what to do), and for you (so you are not tagged with PAS by your stbx-wife).

The first thing I would is tell stbx-wife that you want dd12 to spend 50% of her time with mom and that you feel that is the healthiest thing (make it clear that you are mom's side on this issue).

I would then recommend involving the therapists to coach the process.

Welcome!

Skip

[livednlearned]

Oof. Yes, telling kids mom and dad are divorcing is horrible, at a time that we can be in freefall ourselves.

It sounds like dd12 is digging into some complicated feelings, maybe finding toeholds of control at a time she feels out of control?

My wife would very much like me to adopt the perpetrator role and force her out the nest.

During the height of volatility in my divorce, this would've given me a sly feeling of satisfaction. It's hard for me to admit this even now.  Any chance something similar is happening for you?

Kids who feel they control parents don't do well. It's a reversal of the natural order of parenting roles and it can be scary for them (no boundaries).

In all likelihood you'll have to be the emotional leader for helping dd12 return to kid position in the family.

How do the conversations with her about visiting tend to go? Maybe we can offer some help with the language.

[ForeverDad]

She moved out a couple of months ago... having given me an ultimatum in Jan that either I move out or she would. I called her on the threat (one of a long string) and she stalled... She moved out with very little involvement from me (I was intentionally hands off and "it's your thing and nothing to do with me"), with one exception... dd12 refused to go.

You were very smart to decline to leave.  What it did was let you remain in the family home.  Whether intentional or not, by not leaving and helping your spouse to separate, you enabled dd12 to say, "I'm not leaving my home."  Likely she has more reasons to stay besides not liking ex's choice of residence.  She probably realizes - consciously or unconsciously - the stark difference between your home and her mother's home, stability and calm versus chaos and demands.

I agree that dd12, even the younger children too, see counselors to aid them to gain relationship skills, insight and perspectives.

However, as you are the more stable and reasonably normal parent, I don't agree that dd12 should have as a goal to reach a 50/50 parenting arrangement.  Yes, that's in the non-binding agreement for the younger children but my gut tells me you should let the counselor work with dd12 and then see how she feels.  I suspect it would be better for dd12 to maybe work up to only alternate weekends with her mother, eventually.  Don't feel bad about the current status of occasional meetups with her mother.

You're the more reasonably normal parent, that's good for your children to have as much time with you as practical.  That's why you shouldn't force dd12 to spend half her life with her mother.

On a practical note, the longer your daughter is exclusively with you, the more likely family court will allow a status as primary parent to stand going forward.  So take your time as you and the counselor you choose figure things out.

Warning:  Don't let your ex choose counselors.  There is high risk she will only pick gullible or biased counselors.  If you two need to share the selection task, something family courts approve, then you pick at least three reputable counselors and let your ex select from among that vetted list.

[Skip]

I don't agree that dd12 should have as a goal to reach a 50/50 parenting arrangement.

Good point, FD.

To clarify my comment below...

The first thing I would is (1) tell stbx-wife that you want dd12 to spend 50% of her time with mom and that you feel that is the healthiest thing (make it clear that you are mom's side on this issue)..//.. Getting her to a counselor would be very helpful for dd12, mom (2)(so she can be guided by a third party on what to do)

Point #1 is about how to handle your stbx-wife. Be low conflict and use "S" and "E" part of SET (https://bpdfamily.com/content/ending-conflict). There is no trust in the relationship now... it will take an effort to build it.

Point #2 defer the actual decision to a counselor/d12 - preferably one that you have worked with already that has credibility.

And one more point, be careful in your reading of her (dd12). Her refusal to go to moms house may be about punishing mom and not about picking you over mom.

[Enabler]

Morning all and thanks so much for all your helpful comment. Apologies in advance if I fail to address all of them.

STBexW has been seeing dd12 as regularly as possible out of her home. I sympathise that this is inconvenient for her and have been endeavouring to help facilitate this. In most cases it has meant W comes round to family home (lets called it my home) and see's her here or takes her out for excursions etc. This is obviously not ideal on a number of levels primarily it defeats the objective of my W deciding to move out, and secondly it's an opportunity for my W to criticise me and create drama here which feels a little unfair, especially since I've chosen to avoid conflict as much as possible. So as things stand, on my week (there is an overnight sleepover mid-week which I hope to kill soon), none of the kids see Mum, on her week dd12 is encouraged to be available (if she chooses) for family activities with Mum and I help to facilitate that.

On the whole my stance is neutral, however, where I am prepared to apply my values (and that's independent of my W's wishes) is around general behaviour. For example, my value is that children should be at least directed to behave courteously and politely. There was an incident quite early on where dd12 put W in an impossible position where she would not go to her home but also reserved the right to be ambiguous about where she would meet her... so W arranged to go to a friends house, and that friend specifically arranged for no one else to be there as stipulated by dd12... yet when it came to it dd12 opted to not go. I chastised dd12 for stipulating conditions and suggesting she would attend yet pulling out at the last minute for no good determinable reason. I appreciated there could be other reasons but unless she shared them it appeared as game playing and that was not okay.

With regards to dd12's ability to move into the new house, well that's an interesting one. The property is a 3 bed house, small box room and 2x double. Initially a double bed was bought and dd10 was sharing with W (not massively cool with dd10 who was conscious of ability to have friends over), and D6 in the box room. As W has become more and more despondent with the likelihood of dd12 coming over, dd10 said she wanted the other double (initially reserved for dd12). Rather than buying a single bed thus allowing dd12 to move in at a later date, W bought a double bed on request of dd10... now it appears there is no room for dd12 even if she should change her mind unless W sleeps in the sitting room. It felt like very odd decision making.

I have broached the topic of counselling a few times with dd12 and she is adamant she does not want to see someone. Again, this is tricky since on the whole she is happy albeit that the rest of us have to work around her. That said, if mum decided not to come here, I think dd12 would be okay with that anyway. dd12 is emotionally sensitive, she has gone to great lengths to create a safe place for herself in her bedroom (she is not agoraphobic and goes out freely and happily). She loves this house and loves her room. I have discussed with her what she will do if we have to sell the house as part of the divorce process, I think she would prefer not to think about that. I believe in some senses dd12's response to this is a product of years and years of living in a state where she had options to stay with me at home, or go out with mum. There was always an alternative and for quite some time she's had the option to not toe the line. In her mind why should she think this is any different.

Skip, I've heard of these parenting software thing, do you suggest it because in some senses it encourages accountability, especially to a third party? Looking back at our communication it's free and open from my end, it seems more of a case that she just doesn't communicate things... it's like silent treatment and passive aggressive behaviour over whatsapp?

Livednlearned, I think I know what you mean and I could definitely have done some air punches if I'd have actually thought that dd12 was opting to stay with me for any 'me' reasons. However, I think had the tables have been reversed and I was the one forced out of the house, I don't believe dd12 would have gone there either... unless I'd have involved her in the property selection process, a critical mistake I believe my W made. dd12 was told "this is what is happening and this is where you will live".

New-Life

[Skip]

Skip, I've heard of these parenting software thing, do you suggest it because in some senses it encourages accountability, especially to a third party? Looking back at our communication it's free and open from my end, it seems more of a case that she just doesn't communicate things... it's like silent treatment and passive aggressive behaviour over whatsapp?

I can't think of anything to add to what I said above. There is lots of reviews of these tools in books, articles, lectures, etc. You may want to Google it. Here is one lawyers take (first Google link I opened).

What are the benefits of using a co-parenting app?

Many co-parents now use an online app to aid in communication regarding their minor children.  There are several available, including, but not limited to, Our Family Wizard, Talking Parents, AppClose, and 2houses.  Some of these are free, while others have an annual fee.  Typically the fee is around $99 to $120 per year per user.  Often the free apps carry fees if co-parents want to print the communication.

There are many benefits to these apps.  For one, it keeps all communication together in a form that neither party can edit.  Therefore, it can be very useful in “he said/she said” court disputes.  Most, if not all of these, alert the user when a new message has been sent so that the user knows to log on and respond.

Another useful benefit to these communication apps is that they offer a central calendar for co-parents.  Users can put their custody schedule, vacations, and holidays on this calendar.  Additionally, co-parents can put appointments for the children, schedules for children’s extracurricular activities, and any special events on the calendar.  Maintaining this calendar eliminates disputes about whether one party is informed of an event or appointment pertaining to the child.

A useful feature that is offered by at least some of these co-parenting apps is tracking of invoices regarding the children.  Typically, co-parents will split certain expenses for the children, including, but not limited to, medical co-pays and agreed-upon extracurricular activities.   A user can upload an invoice, and it can be marked as paid when the other parent has reimbursed his/her portion.  This can make it easy for both parents to keep track of balances owed.  Additionally, if one user has to take the other back to Court for non-payment of expenses, this log will be invaluable in proving what is owed and will drastically cut down on the time necessary to accumulate documentation of expenses owed.

The Court will often suggest the use of a co-parenting app when parents are having difficulty communicating with one another, which happens in most cases that wind up before the Judge.  For co-parents who are actively involved with their child(ren) but do not always get along with the other parent, a co-parenting app such as that described is at least worth investigating.
https://www.saintcharlesfamilylaw.com/2018/02/12/what-are-the-benefits-of-using-a-co-parenting-app/

[worriedStepmom]

I think dd12 doesn't need a choice of whether to see a counselor.  dd12 needs to see a counselor, full stop.

Divorce is hard for kids.  It's harder when one parent has emotional regulation issues.

How was dd12's relationship with mom before mom moved out?

Have you consulted with an attorney about the legalities of dd12 not visiting mom regularly?  In my US state, a parent can get in trouble for not forcing a kid to go with the other parent...unless there is evidence that it would cause psychological harm to the child.  That's where the counselor comes in.

We use TalkingParents for communication between H and his uBPDex.  We moved to this instead of texting so that a) we'd have a clear record of what had been communicated (and not) and b) we could soothe ex's anxiety because she could see when a message was read - and thus know if we were "ignoring" her or not and c) to minimize the amount of disruption she could cause by CONSTANTLY texting or calling.  Now H can look at the messages once a day or so and then be done.

[Enabler]

Hi Skip and worriedStepmom,

The "(and not)" said is the bit that I need to tackle. Whatsapp has been working well but you can delete messages so therefore it's not utterly tamperproof.

I haven't consulted a lawyer regarding dd12. I am not concerned that I am at risk of such an accusation. There's a wealth of evidence in messages and documented time showing that I have been proactively encouraging contact and visitation albeit stopping short picking dd12 up and bundling her into W's house.

I have been accused of abusive behaviour towards the children and have spent quite some time remodelling my parenting to be authoritative rather then authoritarian. W seems to want me to revert back to the old model to get what she wants. I'm not going there again, shouting was a blunt weapon which damn near ruined my relationship with the kids and made me very vulnerable and open to knife attacks by W. dd12 needs to want to go and feel compelled to go under her own steam.

New-Life

[livednlearned]

dd12 sure has a lot of power for a kid.

If you feel that neither mom nor you are in a position to compel her to do something (imagine if this was school) I don't see how a third-party professional can be avoided, New-Life. Most likely there will be someone, at some point.

It's not really about how things used to be or whether mom is ok with excursions or how many beds there are.

It pretty simply comes down to S12 being back in a kid position so that cooler heads can guide her, like you. Right now she seems to be running things.

If she won't go, maybe telehealth with a child psychologist for yourself? Mainly to help understand what's happening at the family level, beyond what's evident.

My son was scared to go to his dad's house post-split after an all-night psychotic episode. It took three lawyers, three therapists, and a parenting coordinator to land that plane.

We started with graduated steps, lots of validation, no overnights at first.

Maybe you can work out a plan with a child T that everyone can get behind.

[Turkish]

I have broached the topic of counselling a few times with dd12 and she is adamant she does not want to see someone

Should she have a choice?  She's a child. I only resented therapy at 12 (i might have just turned 13) because my mother said we'd do it together and then abandoned to it after one joint session after which she slept in the car. 

[GaGrl]

How much time is the new love interest spending at mom's house?

[ForeverDad]

Since you don't have a binding parenting schedule, you'll likely not get much pushback from the court for dd12's noncompliance.  After all, she is seeing her mother some of the time, it's not like you're actively blocking mother's parenting.  Maybe allowing it a little passively in a father/daughter face down but...

Yes, mother may claim so, but over here in the USA most courts aren't quick to blame or punish the parents.  They know there's likely to be some conflict and they let a lot of it go and make changes going forward.  Sort of Let Go and Move On.

So you have some time to get your ducks in order, figure out how desperately your dd12 needs to start counseling, etc.  That's my sense of things.

[Skip]

Hi New-Life,

You're getting consistent advice on two things...

Issue #1: I'm a little stuck on how to tackle these boundary infringements mainly because we are yet to agree finances

Set a friendly but independent tone (both ways) and do it up front (now). Employ a co-parenting management system (now) - and follow the program - don't wait for problems to develop first.

Issue #2: dd12 is refusing to even visit W's house ..//.. My W blames me for this situation and seems to believe that I am keeping her here.

Get a therapist involved to guide both parents and mediate the situation and be an independent source for the courts if needed. Your wife is already blaming you for this (the conflict has started) and getting a third party not only help your daughter, but it provides protection for you.

Courts work on formula... these are conventional  "formula" suggestions. What are your thoughts on these suggestions?

[ForeverDad]

Please regard this as me expressing a sense of your situation.

Two typical scenarios we see with BPD are that either the disordered parent is tightly bound with the children (almost as thought the children are perceived as virtual extensions of the parent) or more focused on the adult life and relationships.  Of course there is a wide range of behaviors in between, so I use this just as a generalization.

Since your ex...

• moved out when you failed to do so at her ultimatum...
• did not grab all the kids with her...
• agreed to 50/50 parenting (still no binding order from court...
• hasn't made abuse allegations so far against you...
• has another man already (probably even before she left)...

... All this may indicate she is more concerned with her adult relationship/life than with parenting?  That her parenting efforts are more for appearance right now than in real parenting desire?  That in time her current efforts at parenting may diminish as she drifts into her prior comfort zone of parenting?  What was her interest level in parenting in years prior, did she leave a lot of it up to you?

That impression is why I previously I advised you not to try too hard to demand the 50/50 parenting time.  It's not such a bad thing if your kids are with you more than your ex.  This is not the time to imagine you have to be super-fair.  Do what's overall good for the kids.

Yes, counseling is good.  Choose an experienced counselor.  But this is not to convince the kids to do 50/50, it is first to help the kids deal with themselves and their relationships with their parents.