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Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse... Have you considered that being critical, judgmental, or invalidating toward the other parent, no matter what she or he just did will only make matters worse? Someone has to be do something. This means finding the motivation to stop making things worse, learning how to interrupt your own negative responses, body language, facial expressions, voice tone, and learning how to inhibit your urges to do things that you later realize are contributing to the tensions.
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Author Topic: The ol conversational catch 22  (Read 418 times)
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« on: September 13, 2020, 10:07:10 AM »

My wife was triggered by something this morning and wanted "to help me" by giving me parenting advice.

She promptly told me what I was thinking, where the error in my thinking was...etc etc.

Also interesting that she started this when I was trapped "on the throne" in the bathroom.

I "stayed curious"..."Babe..I'm curious how you can give me advice without listening to my point of view?"

FFw "Oh...you're not going to make me mad..."

FF:  I agree..let's not be mad, let's understand each other.  Are you ready to listen to my point of view or is the more of yours to share?

FFw:  No..No, since you won't listen to me, I won't have a conversation with you.  This is how it always goes."

FF:  I'll be in the other room ready to listen.  

There was some kind of ranting going on while she was in the bathroom fixing her hair, maybe 5 or 10 min.

She emerges..happy as pie and we had a nice breakfast together with our bird (couple months into getting to know this creature)

I'm thankful these things don't happen very often anymore, my "goal" when they do is to demonstrate openness and give space for whatever fire is burning..to burn out.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2020, 11:39:25 AM »

It seems you have found a way to effectively shut down her rants.  She knows that if you have a calm discussion on something, she will end up looking like a fool.  BPD prefers a strawman that they can beat up on.
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« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2020, 11:46:21 AM »

  BPD prefers a strawman that they can beat up on.

Ding ding ding..we have a winner!

Perhaps later today I can sniff around and see if there is something "real" to talk about.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2020, 12:18:56 PM »

FF, reminds me of Tai Chi--stepping aside and assisting the attacker to flow past you.
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« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2020, 04:52:58 PM »

FF, I think it is relevant held you hostage on the throne.  BPDs have little respect for people's privacy and the right time to say things.  That said, you handled the encounter effectively by deferring the discussion.

When my M was living with us and under hospice care (she was dying of a terminal illness and had very mild dementia), my uBPD was triggered and roared his rage at me.  My M started crying as she thought her living with us was an imposition, and was causing friction between the two of us.  I have never forgiven my H for making a dying, elderly woman cry, my M, no less.  I think of this when I see his own family making a mess of their lives and health.  I hold my tongue.
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« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2020, 06:20:04 AM »

I think it's good you offerered to listen.

However, you know I also take the other side, just to be fair. I also don't think it's good to block the emotional stuff, unless it gets too crazy.

Relationships can get messy, and I think it's important to air feelings.

I say this because, it's an issue for us. H tends to block, defer, any discussion about them. Then he appears as the calm collected one, and I get upset, just from frustration of not being able to talk it out.

Being on the throne isn't the best situation, but I also think there are times where letting your wife express her feelings, even if they are about you is better than keeping the calm all the time. Because I think eventually then it could lead to a larger blow up when feelings aren't expressed.

Yes, I think pwBPD do need a straw man persecutor to their victim, but I also think we can mess up in a relationship and the person does have the right to express that. It's part of repair. If we mess up, we can apologize.

I think that's a hard part of a relationship where there's difficulty processing feelings- one can't really get to a resolution. I don't know what your wife is concerned about, but if it is a parenting thing, maybe it's worth listening to. Having BPD doesn't make every feeling invalid.

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« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2020, 06:59:50 AM »


We've got a "date night/alone time" scheduled for this evening.

Was kinda weird talking about it last night.  Basically she kept coming around to me not wanting to a referencing something I said as proof.

And..I mean...olympic level gymnastics to do so.

Hey...have you seen anything over by (insert name of town) that you are interesting in?   (my wife is very good at scrounging deals of clist and facebook..those kind of things)

This was after we had made plans for outdoor seating at a restaurant for this evening and she had then led the conversation to other matters no related to date night.

So..her resonse is "So you don't want to do date night?"

"Oh goodness no, I'm considering going that way at some point to look at John Deere 420 parts, a guy has some over there.  No thought to replace date night with this."

Notwendy,

How would you feel about "blocking" in your relationship, if the conversation was "allowed" but only allowed about feelings and experiences that YOU never had, until your H determined it.

Another way of asking, is it better to have a conversation about fantasy about YOUR thought processes and in some way validate the pwBPD has a point of view, or is it better to hold out for a conversation where each person has their own voice.

"you did X because you where Y and you should Z to fix this"  (x and y never happened and the requirement for a conversation to continue is I agree with her judgment about x and y).

I realize the answer is likely "it depends".  Luckily this type of thing is more rare, so there probably is something in there I should pay attention to.

Best,

FF

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« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2020, 07:20:00 AM »

FF, one thing that has been interesting is hearing the interpretation of something I said, did, or didn't do as my H has reacted to them and then the reaction seems out of the blue. I used to wonder why something caused a blow up that was never intended, until I heard the interpretation.

I think that is different than being told how you are feeling, but perhaps it's not easily expressed.

I think I have posted some of them. One was that I was worried about incoming bad weather when visiting the in laws and wanted to get an early start on the road. While I thought I clearly expressed that, the interpretation was that I was being rude and didn't like my in laws. I have no idea how it got interpreted that way, but until I heard it, the reaction seemed out of the blue.

This doesn't happen anymore ( because I won't put up with it) but if my H was angry at something he thought I said or did, he'd stop speaking to me, sometimes for days. I was left wondering what happened.

If I get upset about something he did, it's usually interpreted as an insult or rejection, rather than a step towards reconcilliation. And without this there doesn't seem to be any learning or resolution and that is difficult on my part as I do want to talk things out but it doesn't seem to achieve that.

I think normally when we say or do something, we assume it's heard or received clearly, but I don't think that always happens. So, for me, I think it's good to hear the imagined response as sometimes it does give me a chance to clarify or at least know what is going on.

Other times, if I feel reactive, it's not a good idea. We need to avoid JADE. So it depends.

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« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2020, 08:04:50 AM »

The details

D15 (just had birthday) has been an interesting teen.  I'm still trying to figure out if she is a leader or a follower, but there are certain friends that things go well with and others that they don't go well with.

Plus, when I am out of town it certainly appears that D15 tries to take advantage of her Mom.

So..maybe about a year ago, she snuck a boy in the house at around 2 in the morning.  Had it not been for a small dog barking, my wife wouldn't have known.  I was out of town.  Even more, she snuck the boy in the back door, so the video doorbell wouldn't see them.

Then when my wife got up (still confused), there was a big song and dance/distraction thing...until she came clean.

It's unclear if she or the boy was the instigator, not sure if it matters.

Then, maybe 6 months later she has a girl over for an overnight and one of our nest smoke alarms starts going off around 2 or 3 in the morning (beeps phone) so it wakes my wife up.  (I'm out of town again).  

Cue the song and dance, it was incense that got out of hand..blah blah blah.  

The real story...some sort of green oregano, so they were playing like they were smoking pot.  Apparently this other girl has a history of this, because the Mom immediately drug tested her and guided us with how to do it.  And the substance.  All came back clean.

But still...setting fires (even candles) (basically burning of any kind) is something you have to clear with parents ahead of time, even ignoring the "play pot".

So..the rule, that my wife pushed for maybe more than me was that it takes two parents to say yes for D15 to do an overnight.  

So imagine my surprise on Friday, when I'm driving back home after being away for a bit over a week and D15 "informs" me of massive birthday overnight party at our house..that night.

"are you asking my permission to have people over for an overnight?"

Here is the thing...I might have had some flexibility, grace..whatever...if there was a decent attitude but she went to blame mode..., even though she could acknowledge that both parents had to say yes and that assumptions that one parent would inform the other (vice D15 speaking directly to each parent) haven't been good assumptions in the past.

Basically...she blamed me for not asking about a birthday party (not on her birthday) that I had no idea about.  

Then she blamed her Mom for not talking to me, even though she acknowledged that she didn't ask her to do so and it was obvious she brought this up to Mom in a busy/distracted time (i believe this was purposeful on D15s part)

So...once I saw D15s intention was to keep digging her hole deeper, I let her know that she didn't have my permission for overnight guests in the house.  Cue the meltdown...(so you are telling me I can never have a birthday).  

Babe...call your friends and let's find a time that works well for everyone and we'll have a great party for you.  

I had to go and get back on the road with my Mom and when I finally get to our house, FFw had set up some kind of party at a hotel with D23 being the chaperone.  (actually a pretty good solution).

It apparently went well, the house was calm and we had a wonderful visit with S25 and his wife, who flew in for a long planned (about a month) family weekend.

OK...so here we get to what my wife says to me on the throne, on Sunday morning.

That I was ruining my relationship with D15, that I said what I said only because I was upset about my Mom (who just got dx with early stage dementia), and that if don't want people to surprise me with plans I had to admit that I hadn't told my wife when I was coming home.

We have been planning the S25 fly in for several weeks to a month, have had many warm and hopeful conversations about it and what we might do as a group (to include me).  There was debate about me coming back on Thursday or Friday and it revolved around some testing results for Mom, but at no point was there talk of missing the fly in.  (yet...my wife claims she was shocked I came home)

So...that's the gist of it.

However she actually said she wasn't going to listen to my point of view nor would she talk to me more about this, unless I agreed to her version.  I suspect her view is the remaining conversation is me asking forgiveness for it or something.

So...during date night tonight I should?

Best,

FF

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« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2020, 08:41:53 AM »

Looks like you set limits on a 15 year old who has apparently pushed the limits before and the 15 year old got upset...

This sounds like normal parenting with teen agers to me.

Not sure what your wife meant but if setting limits is ruining a relationship with the teen ager, then ruin away... because you know teens need limits.

I'm a bit perplexed as to why there was an expectation for a party with the pandemic going on.
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« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2020, 05:00:53 PM »


I'm a bit perplexed as to why there was an expectation for a party with the pandemic going on.

Ummm..exactly.  And...the suspicious part of me knows that they know I'm "harder" on pandemic stuff than others in my family...so they "forgot" to ask.

Who knows..

Best,

FF

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« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2020, 05:58:15 AM »

So here's my 2 cents-

I think some triangulation ( drama triangle) goes on with spouse and children - in general - and you have many examples of your wife taking the kids aside and saying things about you. This was common in my family growing up and still happens.

Teens are a lot more complicated than younger children. They want what they want and they will seek it out from both parents. If the parents are not united in their decision, the teens will go to the parent they think is likely to give them what they are seeking.

If boundaries are an issue it's hard to be seen as the "bad guy" to the teen. Naturally we want our kids to like us and it's hard to manage feelings with an angry teen. If your wife had/has issues with her own mother, this is a difficult time. It was for me, because I didn't want my children to feel the way I felt about my own mother when I was that age, and so their anger at me when I said no was hard to deal with personally.

IMHO, the party didn't just happen. I think D15 wanted it and your wife knew she did. Not wanting the conflict with your D ( perhaps from her own childhood- she might not even know why it's hard for her) your wife set out to try to make it happen. But you would be the roadblock and even if you had no idea about it, you became the persecutor, D the victim and wife the rescuer ( the roles in the triangle can vary).

The conversation on the throne felt like it was coming out of the blue to you, but it wasn't to your wife. The drama had already been in her thiking, and you were going to ruin your relationship with D by saying no. In actuality, that was probably projection of her own fears- that she would ruin her relationship with D if there wasn't a party.

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« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2020, 07:51:33 AM »

We spent time together last night and talked through some stuff (not all).

My initial impression is that there has bee a "body snatching" and someone has replaced my wife with a similar looking model...

The boy that snuck in our house (or was invited in) or whatever..."he obviously needs guidance, you should invite him over and work on cars with him..he obviously needs a Dad"


He hadn't been talked about and wasn't a thing for...6 months maybe...maybe longer.  (as in they weren't talking, parents weren't responding to us...so I thought the entire thing was over)

And I really felt no need to "pursue" some teen and tell him I didn't appreciate him sneaking in..in the middle of the night.

Totally different thing to "poof" forget that happened...act like it didn't happen...basically ignore it, don't talk about it.

I let my wife know that if (insert kid name) comes in our house again (invited or not), his first order of business is a long chat.  I further told her I couldn't imagine a young man like that having a chat like that with me..without his Father present, since I wouldn't ever want one of my teens to do that without me.

She was very uncomfortable..and really didn't have much to say.

The one thing FFw and I seem to agree on is D15 has some friends that she never gets in trouble around, and another group that seems to be trouble.  

The disagreement or different POVs are apparently around this boy and somehow the "fact" that he has another girlfriend seems to play into this...so "D15 and he are just friends...or would be just friends"  (ummmm...I'm interested in female perspectives here.  But I'm absolutely positive that a 15 year old boy hanging around to "just be friends" is someone operating under a "false flag".)

My wife insists "they do things differently these days"...groups of people and all that...

Rueful FF moment:  You would think I would have figured all this out by child number 5.

Exhaustive FF moment:  It's been a while since I worked it out on paper...but I'm sure I'm close by a couple of years.  From the time my oldest became a teen to my youngest turns 20...I will have been a parent of a teen for 29 (at least 20 some) years.  

Somebody save me...

Best,

FF

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« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2020, 08:15:45 AM »

That boy is a playa, IMO.
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« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2020, 08:16:41 AM »

The boy sneaking in at night...

My H and his ex went through this scenario with their youngest daughter, and she was 15 or 16. She was waiting til everyone was asleep, then opening her bedroom window and letting him in. He was staying all night, then leaving before the others in the house got up. This apparently went on a while before they got caught.

There was a sit-down with the boyfriend's parents, all four parents, without the teens. H was in full Army officer mode -- "Here's the deal..." . The young man's parents were curious with him. He made a formal apology, and they dated a while longer.

H's then-wife (uBPD/NPD) had a long history of extramarital affairs that she had exposed the children to, so there was little she could say about the sexual side of the situation.

Some high school boys came to my sister's window one night around 11 PM, and my dad walked out with his .38. These kids don't realize they could be hurt.
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« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2020, 08:27:43 AM »

That boy is a playa, IMO.

Yep...


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« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2020, 08:28:55 AM »

  The young man's parents were curious with him. He made a formal apology, and they dated a while longer.
 

Can you explain this more? 

Were they aware their son had been sneaking out?

Best,

FF

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« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2020, 05:45:14 AM »

Not sure if a 15 year old has earned the title of "playa" quite yet, but he's certainly pushing the limits. Time will tell with this one, but IMHO, deal with the behaviors now. ( I do know a man who was like this at 15, years later, after cheating on girlfriends and a few divorces, I would say he earned that badge, but for others it's teen age immaturity).

I think the issue is between you, your wife, and D15. Looks like a triangle in ways. Perhaps "dating" is different now, but FF, some things don't change and I think you know that sneaking a boy in the window at night at age 15 isn't in line with your values or rules.

That said, getting in between a teen girl and her love interest is also adding gasoline to a drama fire. It often pushes them together, against the world -leads to sneaking out, or sneaking him in. Probably better to seek out some way they can see each other within your rules if possible.

Also, please keep in mind that teen age emotions and teen hormones and teen brains can lead to impulsive behaviors. I think I can guess your values about pre-marital sex, but a teen girl who is willing to sneak a boy in, and a boy who is already exhibiting some "playa" tendencies may be more experienced than you know. Personally, I would have an appointment with the womens health provider for this teen to give her the chance to discuss what is going on, confidentially. One benefit of this is that it takes this discussion out of the triangles- the provider is not going to judge your daughter and it opens the door for her to have a safe discussion about contraception, prevention of STI's, questions about her own body. If she's considering being sexually active or already has been, it gives her access to birth control and being tested for STI if this boy has been with other people. I know some people fear it's being permissive, but I see it as keeping teens as safe as possible. In one year she'll be driving. You can't watch her every moment.



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« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2020, 10:09:21 AM »

Can you explain this more? 

Were they aware their son had been sneaking out?

Best,

FF

Sorry, meant "furious," not "curious."

The boy's parents had no idea he was sneaking out. It wasn't every night but often enough that the kids thought they were getting away with it.


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