My behavior

[JNChell]

My behavior has been terrible towards S5’s mom. It’s all been text. The thing is, is that she has been leveraging him since the day he was born. I’m emotionally exhausted. The thought of losing my Son terrifies me. Maybe that’s an abandonment issue. It most likely is. I would never project that onto him. I care about his emotional well being.

I have called his mom a narcissist. Now I don’t see him. Big mistake on my part. She is a narcissist. An unfeeling person that uses other people. Her own Son.

I think that I should focus on my own bad behavior. I have called her out every which way from Sunday. Big mistake. What do I do? Lie? No. I know everything that happened. Extortion and lies. My anger has lead me. My resentment has called her out. You’ll never beat a narcissist. You’ll never be able to reason with one.

Men love their children. Narcissists don’t care.

[Enabler]

Hi JNChell,

What's the prize you're looking for here? Where would you like to get to?... See your son, have formalised visitation rites?

The thing is, it looks like you're getting caught up in the weeds of things that aren't helpful to your objective.

By the sounds of things you mainly or exclusively communicate via text message/electronically... not face to face or verbally? This is good because it means you can put things in place to increase the amount of time between receipt and RESPONSE... *****NOTE RESPONSE, NOT REACTION*****

I sense that currently you react with your emotional mind, the one that wants to correct narratives, reveal truths, hurt people back... your chimp! Responding with your rational 'eyes on the prize' rational mind means you will only include information that is helpful to your cause not unhelpful.

What physical cues can you identify that tell you that you are not in the right mind to send a message? Can you list them?

New-Life

[JNChell]

I simply want time with my Son. That’s my goal. An apology from mom would be nice, but I’ll never get that.

You’re right. I’m caught in the weeds. I’m mad. Yes, I emotionally react.

I’m always tense because I’m always thinking about it. Going deeper, I also always think about what she has done and taken.
I would like to let it all go and clear my mind of it. I just haven’t figured out how to do that.

I’m not quite understanding what you mean by the physical cues. I’m constantly tense. She is not to blame for my feelings. I miss my boy. That’s why I’m tense.

[Enabler]

JNChell,

When you receive a text from your ex what do you physically feel?

This is what I feel:

- A rush or zing like feeling in my feet which zooms up to my knees
- Eyes become sharpened but also hurt and become blurred, I get tunnel vision a little
- I feel my heart beat in almost all parts of my body
- My throat pushes up slightly
- Whole body tingle

As I understand it, and I'm no Dr but this is a combo of Adrenalin and Cortisone being released into my body... fight/flight reaction. My brain is subconsciously reacting to a perceived threat which rather than being a tiger coming out of the bushes is my STBeXW threatening or potentially threatening my world. Since it is not a tiger coming out the bushes I have no need to prime my lower legs to run, focus my eyes and be alert or speed up my heart to provide oxygen to my extremities in order for me to run... but we're still evolutionary humans and relatively speaking we're not long since been out the savanna. At this time of heightened anxiety, these perceived threats change the way we think and cause us to communicate from our primordial brain (chimp), one that has very limited bandwidth... fight the tiger, run from the tiger. Your typical reaction is to fight the tiger (your Ex).

Time is the only salve for avoiding using this primitive reaction mechanism... allowing the chemistry to fade away and other parts of your Human brain to step in, work out what would be better for you and RESPOND accordingly. So, the best way to identify to yourself it's time to pause is to be aware of the physical manifestations of your bodies subconscious reaction to threat. Once you do that you can force yourself to pause... and when I say pause I might mean not respond for 2-3 days. It might mean come here and ask people what is a healthy response to this. This is a life skill I wish I'd learnt 25 years ago.

New-Life

[JNChell]

Yeah. I feel extreme anxiety any time I have to interact with her. I’m waiting for my first heart attack.

Lately, I don’t have to interact with her because she’s withholding our Son. It’s a catch 22. I’m bound to a narcissist. Either way, she’s going to do what she does.

[Enabler]

JNChell,

Correct, in some senses she will do what she is going to do... and thus we have the choice, to make things worse or not make things worse. Each an every interaction is important. My guess, like me, you have a catalogue of interactions which have made things worse, and a small handful of interactions which have made things better-neutral. It's better to not interact or say nothing than say something that makes things worse. We've all been there, it's instinctive...

The key is to work against that instinct and to STOP, until that time passes, and that time will be less and less the more you train yourself to stop and have awareness of being triggered. Once you can stop you will have fewer interactions that add to drama and damage and more and more neutral to positive ones.

I have just had to have a triggering conversation. I said as little as possible and listened as much as possible. I chose my words very carefully and was very precise about what I said especially because I knew i was triggered... but needed to have the conversation with urgency.

Your body will tell you much much much quicker than your conscious thought will.

New-Life

[JNChell]

Thank you. I always listen to my mind when interacting with her. It always says speak your mind or fire back. I need to make sure that my body is calm and relaxed before I engage her. This makes sense.

[Goosey]

Hey JNChell i get the same way. I spend years with short burst phone calls that were just enough to get me furious or crying or suicidal in The five seconds they lasted before I was hung up on and then called back a million times.
Then texts. Which also can get insane way too fast.
Now she (and I) are blocked and just email.
Email is better.
Slows it down. No little “spinning wheel of wait”.
I feel for you. All I can say is I feel your frustration and pain. Maybe be careful. Your totally understandable frustration may be viewed  as anger and  used against you.
Here I am giving advice haha that’s sad.
I do have a saying in my head I stole from a dead president.
Paraphrased —- doing or saying nothing and looking like an idiot is better then responding and confirming it.
And of course I’m just saying in the heat of it I am capable of lashing out and pouring all my hurt into a burst that will be viewed dangerous in the right (for her) wrong (for me ) setting.

[JNChell]

Goosey, great presidential quote! Lol. I’m pretty much liable for my words. I can’t take them back. I think that it’s best that I’m truthful. I haven’t called her names or threatened her in any way. I’m not that dude. I have called her out on everything. Repeatedly. Minute details that are drawn out and explained from my POV. It’s a mistake, but I have a real hard time keeping my mouth shut towards her. This liar that turned my life upside down and is now taking my Son away? She just keeps taking. I don’t think that she’ll be satisfied until she takes my life. What else can a person take from a man after they’ve taken his Son? The only positive that I take from this is that her actions have justified to me what she is. The grim truth is that it won’t turn out well for our Son.

[Goosey]

I do hear you and honestly, I have my daughter (adult now) residing with me , so I can imagine you pain and frustration but can I really? 
  One other thing I learned from years of trying to converse or reason with my wife Is this.
  She doesn’t hear me. She is not listening.
  I mean that.
  I recall about a year ago in one of the rare actual in person encounters she told me to shut up and let her speak. I agreed only if I could speak when she was done. So she spoke or yelled of whatever and I did control myself and tried to be attentive and whenever how long she gave it a breather I asked. “Ok can I speak now?” And she said “go ahead but I’m not listening” as she walked away.
  I don’t recalled getting any more upset because it was a rare truth on her part. I have grasped that part of this all. I’m am all at fault and dismissed.  It’s hard to fathom but it’s the reality of it.
 So In my situation the back and forth war is over. And nobody won.
   Again I am so sorry you have given me good insight on posts. I wish I had advice for your situation that was sound or give you solace without sounding pandering.  It just sucks.

 

[JNChell]

You’re not pandering. You’re sharing. You’re right. They will not listen or have a meaningful conversation.

[Enabler]

Goosey, I’m pretty much liable for my words. I can’t take them back. I think that it’s best that I’m truthful.

JNChell,

Look at these two sentences VERY carefully...

You are liable for your words... let’s put you in court then... “I think it’s best that I’m truthful”.

Court is about outcomes. Would you expect your barrister to stand up and share truth that damaged your outcome? No...

I am not advocating for deceit, not at all, in fact I would actively discourage that. What I am advocating is that you share truth and share truth WHEN AND  in a way that is positive for your outcome.

Ask yourself, where has telling truth gotten me so far? Radical acceptance means accepting that you are somewhat powerless to instigate your ex’s genuine realisation that she has a problem. No amount of truth from you is going to get her there. Truth at this point is doing more harm than good.

This is why buying time allows you to make statements and formulate responses that produce OUTCOMES, rather than concerning yourself with TRUTH telling.

New-Life

[JNChell]

I see what you’re saying, but I don’t want to lie about anything. I don’t see how that will benefit S5. I completely understand what you’re saying, but I’m not a deceitful person and I don’t see the logic in what I’ve gotten myself into. Sure, it’s a court, but there is such a thing as lying by omission.

I guess I have a little time to think about this. I feel like I should also discuss this with my attorney. The step is an initial hearing. Hopefully I’ll be able to see my Son after that. Then, it’s hopefully mediation. If my words and negotiations count at all, it will be there. I really hope that we can avoid court.

[Goosey]

Well I just got goaded by future ex into blaring out I was shown her “tinder”account.
  I know better then to do that but oh well.
  It’s wasted energy.
 Just felt like a dumpster for all her crap so hit her with  a factual verifiable detail that was brought to my attention.
  I feel ok.
 Sure she will deflect and whatever but I’m defogging in all the wrong ways.
 Not what my lawyer would recommend but Whatever.
 Better then the Pine over what I thought we where.
 
 

[Enabler]

JNChell, like I said, I am not advocating lying. I definitely DO NOT think that deceit is a good way forward. However sometimes keep the truth, or what you believe to be the truth away from her ears. Tell your lawyer, tell the social worker, tell the cops... but communicating the truth or a alternate version of reality from the one your pwBPD holds is fraught with danger and can only be done at specific times without arousing her emotionally.

Less arousal is better.

I suppose what I am getting at is pick your battles and tell "truth" on the understanding that it will worsen your situation rather than better it. You cannot and will not 'truth' her into enlightenment.

In court, Truth to the max if it helps your cause. But that's what lawyers are for.

New-Life

[Enabler]

When I referred to 'court' above I was referring to a metaphorical court that you should pretend you are in every time you interact with your wife outside court, without legal counsel next to you.

[JNChell]

Ok. I see now. I’m not the sharpest tool in the shed. Thank you for correcting me. I’ll think on that. 

[JNChell]

Hey, Goosey.

Well I just got goaded by future ex into blaring out I was shown her “tinder”account.

How did that happen? You alright?

Just felt like a dumpster for all her crap so hit her with  a factual verifiable detail that was brought to my attention.

If I’m understanding this correctly, we have a lot in common. It’s hard to not say something. That goes a whole lot deeper.

Surely this stuff will eventually level out. The only solid advice that I’ve gotten is that it’s up to me to make that happen. That doesn’t sit well with me when I consider everything that went down. I’m just not able to swallow that pill yet.

[Enabler]

Guys, this is tough, it takes a lot of self control. It does get easier and easier and easier the more you practice it and the more you see the benefits of not allowing yourselves to join the proverbial party. This is a huge life skill.

Have you both read this article:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/ending-conflict

New-LIfe

[JNChell]

I read it again. Thank you for the reminder. You know, I’ve been acting like a fool. Now that the legal documents are being slung around, I’m shutting up. I’m trying to weigh everything, and I mean everything that went down. I’m trying to really find where my anger comes from with her. I mean there’s parent stuff, but I want to explore this. If I was squared away as a confident and healthy person, it wouldn’t have gotten past the first date because of this one quote by her. “All of the women in my family choose bad men.” Instead of trying to politely exit that date, I rode in as a white knight. She told me what I would eventually become. After that, she would let me see little parts of conflicts that she was involved in. Just enough so that I could come to her rescue. I didn’t know all of the facts and didn’t question her. It was after things started to feel very weird that I would try to ask her to have a sit down after the kids went to bed. Nope. It’s easy to see how it escalated from there.

Being raged at after approaching my former SO with kindness and gentleness was something I wasn’t equipped for. C-PTSD. I didn’t know I had it at the time. I would shake and panic and beg her not to go. But she would take off. Ghost me for a few hours to a couple days. She had our Son. She knows about my PTSD and she knows that taking him away triggers it.

My parents are dead. They’re responsible for my C-PTSD. This one person that I share a child with has brought it to the surface after I thought and felt that I was ok. The beginning was wonderful. After our Son was born, things shifted very fast.

[Enabler]

I’m super sorry to hear you have lost your parents.

Have you discussed what happens with your parents with a professional? Often PTSD comes from bringing past unreaolved traumas back to the surface as if they were real in the heat and now. It would be great for you to resolve those things such that they don’t interrupt with your experiences now... they don’t belong here, that was then, this is now.

I often think about how my reactions to my wife were a function of feeling comparable sensations to when I was a kid a bullied. Not massively, but enough to leave a scar and enough to leave a legacy that fighting back worked and made it stop. Being with someone with BPD often feels like being bullied, yet we’re adults now and we have different ways of dealing with life, we have choices.

It’s important to put your current position in context. You’re not going to die, you will live to fight another day and you will feel the sun against your face tomorrow. There is no urgency to react now and your life is not at risk if you don’t respond to a text from ex, it doesn’t matter about correcting her narrative. Save that for your lawyer and the courts.

Have some confidence in yourself, you write well, with honesty and integrity, those things are important. Stay cool and work on taming your inner demons.

New-Life

[JNChell]

I’ve been through trauma therapy. Most likely going back. Never hurts to take the training wheels off for a while to see where I’m at. My parents are long gone. I appreciate the sentiment, but it isn’t necessary.

[Skip]

I do have a saying in my head I stole from a dead president.
Paraphrased —- doing or saying nothing and looking like an idiot is better then responding and confirming it.

Thanks Goosey!

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubts." ~ Abraham Lincoln

There are others, thousand of years old, that I think also helpful to remember...

“Wise men speak because they have something to say, fools speak because they have to say something.” ~ Plato

“A moment of silence in a moment of anger saves a thousand moments of regret.” ~  Ali Ibn Abu Talib

Part 1: My behavior has been terrible towards S5’s mom. It’s all been text.

Part 2: The thing is, is that she has been leveraging him since the day he was born. I’m emotionally exhausted. The thought of losing my Son terrifies me. Maybe that’s an abandonment issue. It most likely is. I would never project that onto him. I care about his emotional well being.

Part 3: I have called her out every which way from Sunday. Big mistake. What do I do? Lie? No. I know everything that happened. Extortion and lies. My anger has lead me. My resentment has called her out. You’ll never beat a narcissist. You’ll never be able to reason with one.

JNChell, breaking down what you said earlier, in short:

I have behaved badly, I lost it many times, but it was justified.~ JNChell

This is a hard thing to look admit, but you have and seeing it is the starting point to making things better. But you have to take your side of the behavior to heart - regardless of her trying to control you by controlling access to your son.

Bottom line is that courts want stability for children and when there is a great deal of conflict between the exes, they put the child in the primary care of one parent. She has certainly been told this.

The most constructive thing on your horizon right now is that your custody is going to be determined by family court (not her) and you will have a third party directly or indirectly have oversight in the future visitation.

Are you ready for that?

Is your house clean and conducive for a child rearing?
Do you have video or photos of time you have spent together? Do you have other parents that have seen you together and can vouch for the relationship? Have you done educational things with him? Have you bought clothes, paid for medicine, etc.
Do you know how to provide good food?
Have you taken a parenting class?
Are you clean and sober?
Are you paying child support?
How long has it been since the last "call out" email/text? When was the last time you had a written/documented and calm adult conversation with her?
Are you getting help for your anxiety, depression, anger?

Even if "less than you would like" for all of the above is  the answer, that's OK, doing inventory is important before deciding your priorities here.

You can start fixingn any of those things starting this week.

Do you want to do that? Do you need help from members on how to do thath?

[JNChell]

Skip

Is your house clean and conducive for a child rearing?
Do you have video or photos of time you have spent together? Do you have other parents that have seen you together and can vouch for the relationship? Have you done educational things with him? Have you bought clothes, paid for medicine, etc.
Do you know how to provide good food?
Have you taken a parenting class?
Are you clean and sober?
Are you paying child support?
How long has it been since the last "call out" email/text? When was the last time you had a written/documented and calm adult conversation with her?
Are you getting help for your anxiety, depression, anger?

The home is well kept, clean and organized.

I have a plethora of videos and photos. The last time he and I were together, he caught his first fish. It was a happy moment.

I do have some good folks that can vouch for seeing us together. All of these people love him and miss seeing him.

I do educational things with him. Counting, art work which is a great place to validate him, “adventure walks” where he can use his imagination which is a great way to get him to identify certain things like signs and what they mean. I teach safety to him a lot because he likes to be up on his stool to help me cook.

I have clothes for him here. Skip, it has been up and down with his mom that things like this just became a blur. Everything was constantly changing. I would send his clothes back laundered and neatly folded in his backpack. If I got anything back, they were soiled and smelled like ammonia when I would open it up.

Of course I feed him healthy food. The little guy has to eat his broccoli. He loves fruit, but the broccoli is a staple. I hope to grow that as things progress. He does get the occasional happy meal, but I’ve had him eating spinach as a salad that he enjoyed.  That is most likely stomped out now.

I’ve not taken any parenting classes. I don’t need them. I simply need to be allowed to be a parent.S5 and I have/had a great relationship. Where it’s allowable, I let him make decisions. We also negotiate and I let him win if it’s reasonable for his age. As well as logical.

I’ll drink a few beers with my friends on the weekend for a cookout and afterwards we sit around a fire. Nobody gets drunk.

I haven’t paid CS for quite a while. After the final split, she requested it. I paid it until she said that she no longer wanted it. She said that I was somehow controlling her by paying her CS. She got daycare assistance and refused any further checks. Now, she wants CS.

The last message I sent was 4 days ago.

I’m thinking that the break that I’ve taken from therapy has been long enough. Yeah, I need to get back in that arena. I will very soon.

[kells76]

The home is well kept, clean and organized.

 

I have a plethora of videos and photos. The last time he and I were together, he caught his first fish. It was a happy moment.

   awww, I bet that was sweet!

I do have some good folks that can vouch for seeing us together. All of these people love him and miss seeing him.

 

I do educational things with him. Counting, art work which is a great place to validate him, “adventure walks” where he can use his imagination which is a great way to get him to identify certain things like signs and what they mean. I teach safety to him a lot because he likes to be up on his stool to help me cook.

Do you have any kind of day planner or journal going? Jot down in it, if you haven't been already, stuff like "today I helped Son count to 100!" and "today Son told me he remembered he should never touch the stove burners, because they might be hot"

I have clothes for him here. Skip, it has been up and down with his mom that things like this just became a blur. Everything was constantly changing. I would send his clothes back laundered and neatly folded in his backpack. If I got anything back, they were soiled and smelled like ammonia when I would open it up.

  good job on the clothes. Again, into the journal: "Picked up Son and bag of clothes from Mom's house; all clothes in bag were dirty, so I washed on hot with bleach. Folded and sent back on Tuesday." Yeah, just have whatever he needs at your house, then you don't have to rely on her to take care of him. YOU can take care of him! And it eliminates a potential battle. Sure, sometimes the kids have two winter coats. It happens.

Of course I feed him healthy food. The little guy has to eat his broccoli. He loves fruit, but the broccoli is a staple. I hope to grow that as things progress. He does get the occasional happy meal, but I’ve had him eating spinach as a salad that he enjoyed.  That is most likely stomped out now.

Aaaaand into the journal. Good job on having at least one go-to vegetable. Flexibility is good, too; an occasional McD's trip shows you're not rigid.

I’ve not taken any parenting classes. I don’t need them. I simply need to be allowed to be a parent.S5 and I have/had a great relationship. Where it’s allowable, I let him make decisions. We also negotiate and I let him win if it’s reasonable for his age. As well as logical.

Consider it a tactical move rather than a reflection on your abilities. Looking down the road, you can say in court "Your Honor, I care enough about Son that I wanted to make sure I didn't have any blind spots as a parent. I chose to take XYZ Parenting Class last month to make sure I'm ahead of the game on my skills, taking them from an A to an A+, because that's what he needs." DH and I took a church-hosted (but nonreligious) parenting class (often these are free); it met 1 evening a week for 8 weeks, and they recorded attendance. Yeah, some was review ("permissive, authoritative, authoritarian parenting styles"). We did learn some new stuff as well, and got new resource (book/website) recommendations. The bigger deal was documented evidence that DH CARED enough to keep being a better and better parent. Mom was apparently "too busy".

I’ll drink a few beers with my friends on the weekend for a cookout and afterwards we sit around a fire. Nobody gets drunk.

Good to have eyes on that -- folks who can say "JNChell is an average to below average drinker, and I've never seen him drive drunk, and he doesn't drink more than 1 beer around Son".

I haven’t paid CS for quite a while. After the final split, she requested it. I paid it until she said that she no longer wanted it. She said that I was somehow controlling her by paying her CS. She got daycare assistance and refused any further checks. Now, she wants CS.

Do you have the "I don't want your stupid controlling CS" statement in an email or text or something?

...

I’m thinking that the break that I’ve taken from therapy has been long enough. Yeah, I need to get back in that arena. I will very soon.

  Yes, keep it up. Our T has been a big piece of our support through this slog.

[JNChell]

kells, I haven’t seen him since July 19. The initial hearing is December 2. His birthday. That will be 5 months since I’ve seen him. His mom is calling this boundaries. She using our boy. I’m fired up and sad at the same time.

I don’t have a journal or anything like that going on. I would save texts and emails. Things would improve so I deleted that stuff. I didn’t want it anymore. That happened 3 times. I did the same thing every time.

I would send him in pj’s and clothes until there was nearly nothing left here for him. It never got sent back. I would ask about it. No response.

He actually likes vegetables. Or at least he did. He would gobble them up with some ranch dip. Cucumbers, celery and carrots and a spinach salad with his dinner.

You know, I did have that statement about CS and control. I don’t now. Things would get better, and I’d delete all of the bad stuff. I didn’t want it. I didn’t want to read it. I don’t want to roll through life by saving things that will hurt another person. That’s not me. Apparently, I should have. It’s hard to tell what will happen in the future. I just want to see my boy. I’m his father and he’s my Son. I miss him.

[CoherentMoose]

Yes on this :
"I’ve not taken any parenting classes. I don’t need them... "
and
"Consider it a tactical move rather than a reflection on your abilities."

It's a chess move in the long game of gaining all of your parental rights.  And who knows, you may learn something valuable or obtain some critical resource that will serve you in a future challenge.   jdc

[JNChell]

What will I learn?

[I Am Redeemed]

What will I learn?

JNChell,

In my area there are parenting classes given for people going through a divorce, and also parenting classes offered through the local child abuse prevention center. They focus on the "nurturing parenting" curriculum and teach about expectations for children, appropriate age-related goals and behaviors, ways to discipline, children's emotions, communication, how children can be impacted by domestic abuse or other conflict between adults, etc.

I would see if there is a local child advocacy center in your area and if they offer some type of parenting classes for free. It doesn't mean you are a bad parent. It means you are a proactive parent trying to learn healthy strategies for meeting your child's needs.

Best case scenario, you learn some things to make you an even better parent. Worse case scenario, you find out that you've been knocking it out of the park inherently all along.

[JNChell]

I appreciate it, but I don’t need those classes. I know how to be a dad. I know how to reach my Son. His mom blocks everything. I’m not about to take “father” classes when I already know how to be a father.

[JNChell]

I’m not trying to be an  hole, but S5 and I had a great relationship. now he’s withheld:

[JNChell]

I won’t take any parenting classes. I parent him just fine.

[I Am Redeemed]

JNChell.

This is not about whether or not you deserved to have your son taken from you. This is about what image you will have to present to an objective party who knows nothing about you or your ex or your son.

You want to present yourself in the best light possible. The judge does not know that your ex is disordered.

Do you think your ex is going to take a parenting class? do you think for one minute she would take any suggestion that hints at the fact that she may not be making the best decision for her child? or do you think she would reject any notion that she isn't "mother of the year"? She defines witholding your child as "boundaries".

Don't let your pride get in the way of you playing the long game. You can't take all the events of the past however many years and transfer it into the mind of the judge who holds the power to give you rights to see your son. You can only show prove of tangible evidence that you are honestly trying to be the best parent you can be to your son, so don't discount anything and everything that can work as evidence in your favor.

[JNChell]

I’m sorry. You’re right. I mean that. I’m being a dipPLEASE READ. Care to message more about this stuff?

I’m afraid of my Son being taken away with real control.

[I Am Redeemed]

Anger and pride will not serve you well here, JNChell.

You must decide what lengths you will go to in order to see your son.

Take it from a woman whose rights as a parent were stripped and reduced to dust. When it comes down to seeing your child or not seeing your child- you eat a lot of crow.

It does not mean it is fair. It does not mean an injustice has not been done.

It does mean that you must evaluate what your values are and act according to your priorities.

The end goal here is your relationship with your son and how to best preserve that. Keep that at the forefront of your mind. An enlightened person understands that there is always growth to be pursued.

Keep growth and elevation to a higher level, and what might facilitate that for you, at the forefront. Keep the lower, base instincts, such as pride, anger, revenge, vindication, on the back.

I believe that what goes around comes around. It's been nearly eight years for me, and I won't give up. I believe the day is coming when I will be vindicated, when injustices will be righted, and when I will see the purpose of this pain come full circle.

Fighting for your son may not always look the way you envision. Open your mind.

[Skip]

Staying with the topic "My behavior".

I think people are telling you that its important to change your approach and do it quickly. Let go of the old JNChell who is grieving a lost relationship and fighting with biomom and become the new JNChell who is going to be a conventional father.

I get that you are anxious, depressed, even feeling PTSD... but having the personality that goes along with this is not going to help you get a good deal with your son. You don't want the court to say you are not stable enough to father right now.

This is a tall, tall order because what you feel and the wounds are real. You really have to ask if you are up to it. It's like that superhuman strength mothers get when they pick up the front end of a car to rescue a child who has been pinned underneath.

I won’t take any parenting classes. I parent him just fine.

I just want to see my Son.

...does the 5th amendment have any weight in family court?

Family courts are wide open under a facade of justice.

There is an attitude behind all of these statements that you need to lose. If you don't, the other attorney will poke at you and leverage your attitude against you. If the judge detects it (and they are good), it will not serve you well.

You will not do well if you have attitude about the court, the courts favorite things (like parenting classes, or divorce recovery), or about Mom. All this will work against you. The court wants to see a man who respects the court, the courts ideals, the child (and by extension, the child's mother, the child's extended family). It's tough to be that man - for any man that has been trampled by the ex with your child - but that is the way it is.

This guy...


Not this guy...


And frankly, you will be a better man for doing all this. It should help get you out of the funk and feeling defeated. You (all of us) are not child rearing experts and we all can learn from classes. Divorce recovery can be helpful too.  Learning the law and what the state wants will help - a lot of psychology and case history went into creating these programs and its not always obvious why.

 

[JNChell]

Skip, thanks for laying it out like this. It makes total sense. I guess maybe I’ve been feeling a bit withdrawn and isolated within myself and trying to script a narrative that is justifiable with my thoughts and opinions of “how things should be”. Well, that’s narcissistic thinking and I need to knock it off right now. It’s thinking from a victim POV.

My number one goal is to be a great father for my Son. Being a father is the best and most fulfilling thing I’ve ever done. When he’s dangled in front of me like a carrot, it really  :cursing:es me off. That being said, I’ve reacted poorly and have become the aggressor more and more. The most disheartening part of this judicial process, and the biggest reason that I wanted to avoid it, is because it turns into a twisted competition. That word shouldn’t exist in the triad of two parents and a very young child. Like you said, this is just how it is. I’m going to visit with my best friend this evening, he’s been a huge support throughout this whole debacle. I’m going to discuss this subject with him.

Yes, the PTSD is triggered by all of this. It was triggered while the relationship was still a thing. As time went on, it got very severe. I think that that is where a lot of the anger and resentment towards S5’s mom comes from. I feel like my vulnerabilities were zeroed in on and attacked.

You have a wonderful ability to pull things and place them in a way for a person to see themselves where they are at with themselves. This actually scared me a little bit, but that’s a positive. But the members are right. I’m bad about pushing against the grain at times. I don’t know if it’s self righteousness or a defense mechanism, but as I think about this while I’m typing it, my level of self awareness isn’t as high as I thought it was. I still recoil into a self centered stance when I feel threatened.

Thanks for the pics. A good laugh always makes the day better.

[kells76]

Great thoughts from Skip and IAR... JNChell, glad we're all together here and talking about stuff.

I think people are telling you that its important to change your approach and do it quickly. Let go of the old JNChell who is grieving a lost relationship and fighting with biomom and become the new JNChell who is going to be a conventional father.

This is less a disagreement and more a 90 degree perspective shift on what Skip wrote above.

What if there IS a place to check in with "old JNChell" -- it's like, it might be "fake" to just say "OK I'm done with Old JNChell, he isn't a factor any more". What if it's more like, OK, the place to do some business with "old JNChell" is with a good therapist? And then in the arena of ANYTHING to do with your sweet son, parenting, anything to do with courts/judges/lawyers, it's "working hard at new JNChell" with new skills, new approaches, etc?

I wonder if that makes sense.

[Skip]

Good perspective - we’ll said Kells.

[JNChell]

It makes sense. JNChell as I am has landed me in a place that I don’t want to be. Change is needed. Fighting hard and being stubborn isn’t always the best bet.

[kells76]

JNChell as I am has landed me in a place that I don’t want to be.

I get it. I see choices I've made, some feeling "choicier" than others, that have contributed to the tone of the relationships I have now.

Change is needed.

I see that in my life, too. How can I make changes to have healthier relationships with my family, for example.

Fighting hard and being stubborn isn’t always the best bet.

And yet it's been a real part of your life. Erasing it or forgetting it or pretending it never happened doesn't "make you the new JNChell". (Not that you are saying that. It's just an example)

I hope you can keep some space for "stubborn fighter JNChell" who has got you through a lot in life. Give him some room with a good therapist, and let his dogged determination fuel "new JNChell's" skill building, total focus on son, new paths, new tactics.

[JNChell]

kells. I’d like to find that happy medium. Fighting and pushing is tiresome. It’s also non-productive in situations like this. I can’t beat a narcissist. I simply cannot. I admit defeat. That’s very hard for me to say. Perhaps I can cherry pick off of the stubborn JNChell. I don’t know at this point. I just want to see my Son. He’s 20 minutes away and I can’t give him a hug. I’m really   mad about that.

I just miss him so much. I’m so angry and sad. That’s my boy and we have a great relationship. It’s hard to look in his bedroom. Everything is here waiting for him. It shouldn’t be this way for his wellbeing. I’m really pissed at his mom for doing this to him.

[JNChell]

yeah, I hope so. I want to see my boy. It’s almost crippling. I want to hug my child. It’s hard to not loose my temper. I want to hit things. I’m mad. I can’t see my Son, and I’m very mad about that. I know the truth about everything, but it’s not able to matter.

[defogging]

JNChell, I can totally relate to your desire of wanting to "right the wrong" in your communications with your ex.  This is something I internally battled a lot at the beginning, but I came to the realization that IT DOES NO GOOD for anyone.  I can't tell you how many times I told her how her behavior affects the kids, how many times I tried to reason with her, how many times I called her on her BS, etc. 

I'm a person with a strong sense of right and wrong, and I felt justified when I stood up to her and called her out.  The problem is she would go silent and then find another way to manipulate the situation.  Not to go into my story, but what I've seen is she is working very hard on turning my D10 against me.  Not working real well for her, but sometimes D10 and I have our difficulties, which I can usually figure out after a day or two with D10 and we're cool again.

My point is, you need to find an alternative solution to standing up to them.  I'm sure you're justified in your anger like I was, but things get better when you stop beating your head against that wall.  She won't change, she'll just find another way of manipulating it.  Play the gray rock game, be uninteresting, don't get provoked, and just be a good Dad on your end of the equation.

[kells76]

I think there's something interesting in defogging's point, and I want to take a 90 degree sideways look at it:

you need to find an alternative solution to standing up to them.

If "standing up to them" is defined in a certain way -- as "telling them in no uncertain terms that they are hurting the kids", for example -- then yes, an alternative is needed.

How about an alternative definition of standing up to them?

This isn't about "the end justifies the means" and "if it didn't turn out OK, then the means were clearly not OK". This isn't saying "there's no room in life to tell people when they are being hurtful, if they don't change after hearing that".

This IS about what's effective for your son's wellbeing.

Telling the disordered other parent that they are hurting the kids is not an effective way to improve the kids' wellbeing, as defogging points out and I have experienced.

This is NOT saying that "if truth is not effective in improving the kids' wellbeing, then the opposite -- lying -- is effective".

It's not black and white, where the opposite of "A" is "not-A".

"Standing up to them" can look like jiu-jitsu instead of boxing.

Boxing = telling them to their face that they're being hurtful, with the goal of helping the kids. Lots of power, strength, intensity trying to counter their hurtfulness.

Jiu-jitsu = finding a different, perhaps non-intuitive strategy, with the goal of helping the kids. Lots of using their energy against them to counter their hurtfulness.

So, circling back -- what if "standing up to them" were defined not as "telling it like it is to their face", but rather, as "responding to them in a way that is most effective for your son's well-being"?

With some people, the two statements may be equivalent. There are perhaps people in life where you could "tell it like it is to their face" and that would be the most effective move for well being.

Sadly, that isn't the case with your son's mom. The two definitions aren't equivalent. You've tried #1 for a while (telling her straight up that she is being hurtful), and the outcome has been that she has NOT done what is good for your son. It would be good for your son to be with you, but you've tried option #1, and she withholds him.

So...

The answer isn't "just stop standing up to her, so that you get a different outcome for Son". I think the answer is "Stand up to her in ways that are most effective for your son's well-being". And those ways might look unintuitive, weird, different, passive, unfamiliar, etc. In jiu-jitsu, you might look like you're on your back, on the ground, under the big guy, about to be pummeled. If it were boxing, meeting power with power, you'd be screwed. That's where you want to be in jiu-jitsu, though. There's a lot you can do from your back on the ground -- if you know some moves.

I know the truth about everything, but it’s not able to matter.

The truth always matters. The fact that it doesn't matter to her says more about her than it does about truth. There's what's true about her, right? The kind of person she is? Use that truth as you give JNChell some new skills and strategies. You know what kind of person she is, how she'll try to rattle you and "get to you". She's doing it now. And she thinks it'll keep working, because she's used to it setting you off into telling her off. She won't be prepared for any other kind of strategy. She's in it for reactions from you... negative engagement is engagement. When you are able to step aside and let her own power send her to the ground... she won't be expecting that.

...

I guess this was kind of "stream of consciousness", but to wrap it up, I just want to suggest that the choice isn't between "stand up to her" and "don't stand up to her". I see the choice as "stand up to her in X sort of way" and "stand up to her in Y sort of way"... and the choice is about what's most effective for your son's health and well-being.

It's all a kind of high level view, so we can bring it back down to earth and talk specific "jiu-jitsu" strategies if that sounds interesting.

Cheers;

kells76

[defogging]

Good points by kells76, and I'll expand a little on what I meant.  I got some great advice along the way that my exPDw likes to only give me one option when making decisions, it's her decision that she already made for everyone and I'm not presented with another option. 

The strategy I've adopted is that whenever a situation arises, I step back and think about what the other possible alternatives could be.  I've found there is always a way around the one option I've been given.

Example: My most recent situation is that my exPDw has been trying to weave her way into my parenting time.  Scheduling appointments for the kids during my time and offering transportation, overscheduling activities and attempting to share transportation duties with me.  This works out terribly, because the more time the kids spend with exPDw the more she can try to turn them against me.  The kids usually come back to me angry about one thing or another, full of criticism about how I do things or decisions I make, then it takes a day or so to get them balanced out again.

Sadly, I knew I had to limit her access to the kids during my time.  This seemed like a tough thing to figure out, because exPDw was making sure the kids were interested in all the activities, and would be mad at me if I didn't let them participate.  That's the black and white corner she tried to back me into, either allow mom to drive them to practice, or be the bad guy that told them they couldn't participate.  The option I found was to expand my network with the neighborhood parents and I now have several high school kids available and willing to provide babysitting and transportation to activities.  It worked out very well.  My D10 went from being upset with me about not allowing mom to drive her on my days, to thinking it's the coolest thing in the world to get a ride from a high school kid.

So, my advice would be to disengage from the drama as best you can, and step back to think about what other alternative options you have when confronted with any situation.  I've had great luck with using other folks on this forum as a sounding board to find alternative solutions, I would recommend seeking specific advice for how to approach things from other members here. (perhaps you have been doing this and I haven't seen it)

[worriedStepmom]

Another example of the sideways model - my SD was the same age as your son when we got married.  For 2 years, I heard A LOT of "Mommy says..." and something ridiculous.

I could have flat-out said Mommy lied or pleaded my case.  Instead, I turned it around.  "What do you think about that?"  "How did that make you feel?"  I focused on SD instead of Mommy...and eventually SD figured out mommy was full of it.

It's tough, right now, when you don't have access to your son.  That's what the legal battle is for.  Find a way to vent your anger and sadness that isn't at your ex.  She doesn't care about what's best for your son.  She wouldn't recognize what's best for him if it hit her in the face.  Instead, work on you, and make plans for when you do have S again.

[Enabler]

Outstanding advice here. The sideways shuffle then look for an alternative is great.

So practically, how do we loop this back to JNChell's specific situation?

In the case of triggering communication, the sideways shuffle is... do not reply immediately. That is the different way to act. Probably the unexpected way of acting. Then, in your zen state think of an alternative way of replying. How regularly do you receive triggering messages? Is there anything we can look at now? Live example?

New-Life

[JNChell]

I’ve delayed my response before. Nothing works with her. Not a damn thing. Control and power is who she is. She knows the vulnerability and she controls it. I’ve talked about it on another post. She is using him. My behavior towards her is under wraps. I simply don’t contact her. She wouldn’t say anything back. I feel so stupid for having a child with this woman. But, if I didn’t, Asher wouldn’t be here. I love my boy and I miss him so much. Currently, there is no contact so behavior isn’t an issue. I feel angry and resentful. I just hope that the court order is fair when considering S5.

[JNChell]

I guess that this is where I should post this. It’s very hard to talk about this because it’s embarrassing, shameful and I’m still a bit confused on why I did what I did. This is going to be long.

After S5 was born, things took a quick turn between his mom and I. I’m not placing blame on her. Things started happening that I was concerned about. I would try to talk to her. She would get triggered, gather up the kids and run off. She’s not capable of communicating and sharing concerns. She would stonewall, not telling me where she was or even how S5 was. Completely blocked. She would come back and act like nothing happened. When I would try to talk to her about her previous running off, she would run off again and repeat what had just happened. This went on for roughly two years and I started to lose my mind. I’ve had C-PTSD since childhood, but I didn’t know that yet. I was being called names, told that I was imagining things and threatened with my Son. I became very sick, mentally. I started drinking heavy. That didn’t help anything. It was numbness. I made a vow to myself the day he was born that S5 and her daughter wouldn’t experience a broken home. I am naturally biased, so this leans more towards my Son. I fought and I tried so hard to keep the family together. No matter what I did, I wasn’t doing enough. She broke up with me dozens of times, and I always begged her to come back and solidify the family. I was so focused on that. In the meantime, I was losing myself. That’s what a narcissist does. That’s also what happens when people like me grasp at a situation that should be let go of. It’s 50/50. No two ways around it.

I shared my past with her, and she shared her past with me. I white knighted her because I thought that she needed to be saved. She always needs to be saved. She talked poorly about every friend, family member and coworker. But, all of these people showed up with gifts at birthday parties. I started to question this, and the abuse got worse. But, I wanted to keep the family in tact. The big breakups lasted a couple months. She would go out and sleep around, and I would always welcome her back. This happened twice.

I guess that I should get to the meat and potatoes here. One day she and I were fighting through text. She was at her sister’s house 2 miles away. Evening was setting in and a major storm warning was a factor. She had moved out of the house a year prior, but was still doing the relationship thing. I told her to bring the kids over and spend the night because of the storm. Conversation went back and forth. She said the house sucked and went silent. Two hours later she calls and asks if she and the kids can spend the night. I paused and said ok. 5 seconds later she comes crashing through the door in a rage. Calling me an insane douche bag and anything else that you can think of. She was doubled over and screaming at me. She was sitting in the driveway when she made the phone call. She screamed at me that I didn’t answer in the way that she wanted. I don’t remember a lot past her rage. I remember sitting on the couch with my head in my hands. Dry mouth and shaking.

I poured gasoline on my kitchen floor and I burnt my house and possessions to the ground. I was planning to shoot myself in the head. Somehow, that didn’t happen.  I spent 8 days in a psych unit in the aftermath.

S5’s mom and I got back together after this. Can you believe that? There was another incident where I became suicidal and it is now over. I don’t have those feelings anymore, and I didn’t have them prior to meeting her.

This story is a mix of PTSD meeting a narcissist. Friends, please be careful with your feelings and emotions. If you are considering pursuing a person that has hurt you, think hard, listen to your gut and don’t set yourself up for a hurt locker.

[Living Life]

Your post breaks my heart. Except for some of your more extreme reactions, the relationship between you and your wife is very reminiscent of much of what I experienced in my childhood. I often wished they would divorce so there would be peace. The good news is you and wife are no longer together and you are undergoing therapy. Unfortunately, you still have to redeem yourself with the court. As we know, by removing the trigger, you can begin to calm yourself. When caught up in the middle of all the crazy, dysfunctional and violent behavior, it is very easy to fall into self destructive actions.

I am so sorry that you have had to endure all this. You are an example of how the dysfunction pulls us into more dysfunction. I am happy you are out of it, are now finding your own self worth, and finding some happiness. Accept your past and don't beat yourself up over the 'should have done...', move on to a new future.  Keep on the positive path and set a good example for your son.

[dindin]

I am so sorry you went through this. I also once had a very close call with this ultimate step. I remember I experienced complete detachment at the time, like I wasn't there. Have you? Have these thoughts ever come back?

[formflier]

I think it's good you have a place you can be open.

This is the kind of thing that your L needs to be aware of and if you can show parenting classes, therapy and other stuff since then...my guess is it will be "too old" to have much of an impact, especially if you can show a solid citizen since then.

And...if you guys can settle before trial or mediation, it never comes up

Again..good you can talk about this stuff here. 

Best,

FF

[Skip]

Hang in there JNChell. This is difficult stuff. It's good that you are in a much better place.

[Ouch9999]

No judgement here, only empathy. I can absolutely see how her behavior would drive someone to extremes, as Living Life said "You are an example of how the dysfunction pulls us into more dysfunction." I always describe my pwBPD's behavior as "toxic." And if you're fed poison, you're going to have a bad reaction, right?

Good on you for coming so far. Good on you for all the help you are giving to others by sharing your story!

[worriedStepmom]

I want to loop back to what you said at the beginning, that you don't need parenting classes.

Yes, you do.

So do I.

Every single one of us can benefit from it, but those of us trying to coparent with someone with a personality disorder DEFINITELY need more skills than we are born with.

I was a good mother when I got divorced.  Now I'm a great one.

Since then, I've been to parenting classes.  I've read dozens of parenting books.  I see a therapist and ask her and my kids' Ts for advice regularly on how to improve my parenting.

Because my kids and my bonus kid deserve the best parent they can get.

And I still have more to learn and improve.

Going to parenting classes does not make you a bad parent.
Reaching out to learn more about how to be a good parent does not mean you are a bad parent.

[Enabler]

Going to parenting classes does not make you a bad parent.
Reaching out to learn more about how to be a good parent does not mean you are a bad parent.

Wonderfully put worriedStepmom, this is so not about being a bad parent, it's about being an awesome parent.

Even when you do get contact with your child there may be a lot of unexpected things you will need to deal with. Things that you wouldn't have to deal with as a "normal" parent. Parental alienation for example, how would you approach that at the moment? "Daddy, I think you're mean to me and Mummy, you left us and didn't want to see me for months". It's horrible, but you're potentially going to have to deal with that and there's a totally different school of thought you will need to learn to be effective in those situations.

Consider it JNChell.

New-Life

[ForeverDad]

I took parenting classes.  They're required of all parents going to court in my state.  Actually, my ex and I both took them.  Well, she supposedly took them, I have no proof, probably elsewhere since she avoided my classes.

Keep that in mind.  I think that's what will happen when you have your day in court.  If not, if the court orders only you to have parenting classes, you ought to be free to ask for her to also take them.  Whether she benefits from the classes or not, at least you will feel better that both of you are under similar status... as parents, not accuser versus accused.

Same for other situations.  If she wants you to be assessed (psych eval) then she too should have the same assessment.

Most of us, because of our ex's obstruction and even accusations, ended up needing an in depth Custody Evaluation.  It is much more than a psych eval.  That takes months.  It is critical to have a very reputable and experienced professional, not just anybody.  However, the good thing is that by then you will be having regular contact with your son.

BPD is known also as a Blamer's disorder.  Odds are you two will never agree on much of anything in the future.  So what? 

[Crispy Waffle]

I've been out of the loop recently with a number of life issues unrelated to the divorce and ex. But it's refreshing to be reminded that what I'm experiencing is typical of BPD (I was about to say "normal", but it is far from that).

I always feel a bit of a connection with you because I think we operate from largely the same place. My therapist told me to consider everything I say or write as if it were possibly to come up in court (because indeed it could). As I told her, I get caught up in the ex's drama and spooled into the conflict too easily. I try to approach it like Bruce Lee in Enter the Dragon; the scene where a guy tries to pick a fight with him on the Chinese junk (boat). He asks Lee what his fighting style is, with Lee replying "I call it the art of fighting, without fighting". He proceeds to marginalize the guy by convincing him to get into a dinghy and then sets it loose, dragging it behind the boat. It is completely contrary to who I am and how I operate. I will avoid conflict because I'm too "good at it" (which means I'm not good at defusing conflict).

So I have to learn a new way. It can seem impossible. This process is painful and will continue to be, but I am already seeing improvements with my stress and being able to remain calmer when dealing with other challenges. During it I have to endure a lot of crap, work on myself, and not be tempted to avoid it be indulging in other distractions such as jumping into a new relationship as my ex did. I have taken to looking at this is something of a monastic pursuit.

One thing that has helped a good bit is journaling my thoughts on paper. I was dubious, but it really is cathartic. Good old analog pen and paper changes how you process the words and thoughts. And I'll also read through them on occasion. I write the good, bad and ugly. I've written horrible things about my wife, as well as kind things. It really helps me get those ruminating thoughts out of my head, while also helping to let go of some of the anger, effectively evicting her from living rent-free in my head, at least temporarily.