Petition for discovery

[JNChell]

I received a 14 page petition for discovery from mom’s lawyer today through my lawyer. I’m overwhelmed. Do I have to answer these questions and give the information that is requested? We’re supposed to have an initial hearing to reinstate visitation. At least that’s my understanding. I thought mediation had been agreed upon. Her lawyer drafted a 14 page petition for discovery. At the end of it , he said that my answers were under oath. By who? I’m rattled and starting to feel like I’m not really going to be represented. I get paperwork emails from the paralegal. I’m getting very nervous. 14 pages. We’re supposed to be trying mediation. Should I call him myself and explain this outside of my counsel?

[GaGrl]

Call your lawyer and work it through him/her. You probably are not required to provide discovery that she does not reciprocal provide you. You can also decline to answer anything that is not relevant to the motion at hand.

Do not contact her counsel directly.

I'm sure others here have had discovery experiences.

[JNChell]

I sent my attorney’s paralegal the same concerns. Is this just how this goes? Is it really this crazy? What about the child? I feel like I’m living with her again.

[Skip]

Do not call her attorney. Most likely he won't want to speak with you because of Bar Association ethics. Call your own attorney.

Discovery is part of every lawsuit. Often mediation doesn't take place until there is discovery - both hers and yours.

Your answers need to be truthful as you are certifying them as truthful and if you are found to be lying, there are penalties.

You want you lawyer involved to guide you. Often the lawyer will narrow the scope of many questions by objecting to part of the question.

This is time consuming and tedious and it is important.

The point of discovery is to find information that she can use to support her case against you. Anything you give them (or withhold) can and will be used against you if it helps their case.

[JNChell]

How long should I wait for my lawyer to contact me and fill me in on what’s going on?

[Skip]

How long should I wait for my lawyer to contact me and fill me in on what’s going on?

Did you call him?

His timing will be based on the due date for the discovery. He has many cases and he is trying to balance his time.

When are the answer due?

[JNChell]

I didn’t call him. I have 30 days. I don’t know how to answer a lot of the questions. There are no viable answers to a lot of them. It’s a very intimidating thing to receive. S5’s mom wants me to pay her legal fees. She told me that if I want to see him again that I would have to take her to court. So it is.

[Skip]

Put a call in.

The discovery requires documents - start pulling those together.

Your lawyer's paralegal will take your drafts and answer the questions and then have you sign it.

[JNChell]

I don’t understand what you’re saying here.

[JNChell]

Contact her attorney? Or don’t? I’ve been told both here.

[Skip]

Contact her attorney? Or don’t? I’ve been told both here.

Everyone has said to call your attorney. Do not call her attorney.

[I Am Redeemed]

Do not contact her attorney. Her attorney is looking out for her best interests, not yours.

Part of your attorney's job is to help you answer these questions and to make sure that whatever info you disclose is also disclosed to you.

If you do not understand the questions or need help with them, that is what you pay your attorney for- to help you.

[kells76]

Hey JNChell, we've been hit with that, too, and yes, it was before mediation (as far as I recall).

This will be OK. Remember that lawyers will often say whatever their clients want. She can tell her L "Make sure to tell JNChell that unless he pays for my rent forever, and covers all my debts, and tells everyone he meets that I'm a saint, he'll never see Son again. Also, he's a lying chipmunk with a Pepsi addiction." The lawyer will say that in legalese in the paperwork. DH's ex said some nasty stuff about him. Apparently she was "astonished he could keep a job even when he'd been accused of sexual harassment, so because he had a job, he should pay her more". The SH accusation was false, she KNEW, and from a job a DECADE ago. And apparently hadn't been an issue with her until she thought she could get more $ from him that way.

Do you have a friend who could read through the docs her L sends you, before you do, and pull out pointless pages (i.e. false accusations, meaningless requests) so you can focus on what really needs to get done?

OK, back to the advice from the group.

You probably are not required to provide discovery that she does not reciprocal provide you.

Channeling my inner ForeverDad: DON'T let your L give her L all your hard work unless it's 110% guaranteed that she will give you the same. DON'T be "nice" or "early" on this one. Tell your L that you want him/her to meet with ex's L and do a reciprocal exchange. Basically... "Sure, we're happy to provide these discovery documents, at the same time that you hand over all the ones we requested."

Your ex may have a mindset that "the rules are for JNChell, not me, and I'm entitled to all this, but JNChell isn't." That's not how discovery goes, and make sure to leverage the fairness of discovery.

I have 30 days. I don’t know how to answer a lot of the questions. There are no viable answers to a lot of them. It’s a very intimidating thing to receive.

I wonder if the inherent un-answer-ability of the questions has to do with what your ex told her L to ask. She has a disordered mind.

Yes, yes, yes, talk to your L, or at minimum his/her paralegal or assistant, and get help step by step on these. If I recall correctly, "I do not know" or something like that is an acceptable answer in discovery, as long as it's true. The mere fact that your ex is demanding answers doesn't mean she'll get the answers she WANTS.

...

1. Call YOUR lawyer
2. Make a list of the stuff you have to answer, with check boxes
3. Check off the ones you are sure about, make sure to send those by your L or the assistant for confirmation that your answer is OK
4. In parallel, thoughtfully and methodically start pulling together the documents (probably bank statements, pay stubs, stuff like that?)
5. Schedule a time in the next 2 weeks to go to the copy shop and make photocopies. I'm assuming it's still hard copy for discovery?

...

This will be OK. I suspect your ex has no idea that the same request will be made of her.

[JNChell]

My bad here. My attorney is a woman. Her attorney is a man. I guess that I got confused by the advice that I was given, but I didn’t provide that info for the post. Admittedly, I was rattled by receiving the petition. It’s aggressive and I just want to come to a reasonable agreement. Anyway, I apologize for not understanding the advice that was being offered. Skip, thanks for clearing that up.

[Skip]

It’s aggressive and I just want to come to a reasonable agreement. Anyway, I apologize for not understanding the advice that was being offered. Skip, thanks for clearing that up.

JNChell, that's a little like saying, I just want to win the football game.   You have to work it and be smart and you need to know the rules.

The fact that you are in a contested divorce with lawyers involved means that there are things the two of you don't agree with with respect to the split and the goal is to be more compelling to the mediator or the judge (if it goes that far) than the partner.

The mediator will try to steer you toward what is the accepted practices in your jurisdiction with regard to custody, visitation, child support, and property division.  Anything that either of you want above and beyond that, will require making a case for it.

What is your ex wanting with respect to custody, visitation, child support, and property division?

[ForeverDad]

You probably are not required to provide discovery that she does not reciprocal provide you.

Channeling my inner ForeverDad: DON'T let your L give her L all your hard work unless it's 110% guaranteed that she will give you the same. DON'T be "nice" or "early" on this one. Tell your L that you want him/her to meet with ex's L and do a reciprocal exchange. Basically... "Sure, we're happy to provide these discovery documents, at the same time that you hand over all the ones we requested."

If I recall correctly, "I do not know" or something like that is an acceptable answer in discovery, as long as it's true. The mere fact that your ex is demanding answers doesn't mean she'll get the answers she WANTS.

...

1. Call YOUR lawyer
2. Make a list of the stuff you have to answer, with check boxes
3. Check off the ones you are sure about, make sure to send those by your L or the assistant for confirmation that your answer is OK
4. In parallel, thoughtfully and methodically start pulling together the documents (probably bank statements, pay stubs, stuff like that?)
5. Schedule a time in the next 2 weeks to go to the copy shop and make photocopies. I'm assuming it's still hard copy for discovery?

This will be OK. I suspect your ex has no idea that the same request will be made of her.

Thank you, kells, yes I would have stated that.  I learned my lesson the hard way.  I sent over 600 pages in response to my ex's generic interrogatories.  Meanwhile we got no response - none at all! - to my lawyer's focused questions.  That's why it is good to view this as another opportunity to stop the one-sided abuser/victim scenario.  You are BOTH parents.  You BOTH need to complete some background information.

And yes, saying "I don't know" is appropriate if you don't know.

My greatest concern is that you will blab too much when you get to the question, "Detail every time you have been an abuser and ex the victim."  Isn't there a law where you are not required to incriminate yourself?  Sure, we all said or did things we're not proud of, but that Fifth Amendment Right to Not Incriminate Yourself is for your protection.  How that applies to you, your lawyer should guide you.  My lawyer told me his most important task was to STOP me from saying too much.  If 'Yes' or 'No' or 'I don't know' is sufficient, then STOP.

Remember, this is more about the child (parenting) than the parents.  But everything else will get drawn in as well.  This is where your lawyer needs to step in and guide you on what not to say, what to say and how to say it.  That's his job and why you're paying him so much.

[JNChell]

It’s not a divorce, Skip. Our Son was born out of wedlock. It’s custody.

[JNChell]

ForeverDad, I was awake for most of the night in bed wondering if I could plead the 5th on any interrogatory that I was uncomfortable with. At the end of the petition her lawyer stated that my words would be under oath. I’m not sworn in. I owe him nothing.

BTW, hope you had a nice trip.

[JNChell]

Sorry for the double post. So I can plead the 5th and request the same from her side? Another question. I’ve asked my attorney and her paralegal a few simple questions. How long should I wait for a response? I’ve heard nothing back after receiving two motions. I’ve asked questions.

[kells76]

What day/time did you ask your L the questions?

I'm not sure, if it were me, that I'd be asking your ex's paralegal any questions. See about just funneling those to your L. After all, your ex's legal team works for her. They might answer YOUR questions in a way that benefits HER.

In parallel, as you wait for answers (and let's say 1-2 business days is "reasonable" to wait, just for example), just do the best you can on the other stuff: making the checklist, answering the "solid" ones, flagging the "not sure" ones, and getting a box of docs together for the copy shop. If you have 30 days as a deadline for discovery, I wouldn't want to wait >5 business days for a L response.

[JNChell]

It’s all email. My attorney is an old high school friend. I’m starting to doubt her. Maybe I’m just being impatient, but I’ve expressed my concerns twice and I haven’t gotten a response.

[Skip]

I was awake for most of the night in bed wondering if I could plead the 5th on any interrogatory that I was uncomfortable with. At the end of the petition her lawyer stated that my words would be under oath. I’m not sworn in. I owe him nothing.

The 5th amendment applies to criminal court, not a civil lawsuit. If the other attorney asks a question that is overly broad, your attorney with object and narrow it.

For example:

Question: "How much alcohol have you consumed in your lifetime?"

Answer: Defendant objects to this question and the time frame addresses time periods that are not material to the case and the definition of alcohol and the metric of measure are not specific. Not withstanding our objection, since the birth of the child, the defendant has not been intoxicated when care taking the child.

[JNChell]

Does that apply to marriage or custody out of wedlock?

I understand that the Constitution is not recognized by the family courts. They’re separate. That doesn’t mean that I can’t recognize it as a citizen. Nothing has gone to court yet. Even if it was already in court, I have my rights. The family court wants to separate a person from their rights. They can’t do that. They can only make it hard. It’s a toxic system.
The 5th amendment always applies.

[SamwizeGamgee]

TBH although it's eventually required, especially before court hearings, I think the discovery process is used by lawyers to gin up billable hours. "Oh, let's look through ten years of JNChell's bank statement, that should be exciting?"  when actually, it's going to cost $3,000 to get and read those bank records. :/

Nothing is scarier than thinking we're in legal trouble. I hear you.  But, take it easy.  The court has rules.  Your lawyer had better be using those rules to help your case too.  It will balance out.

Although the outcome isn't certain, taking time and costing money is certain. You will get a chance to be heard and ask your own questions.

Don't go it alone.  We can boost you spirits, your lawyer has to fight for you.

Be sure to discuss IF you have to answer with your lawyer as well as what to answer.  A deposition is under oath, as is testimony in court.  Answering questions to an lawyer letter is still optional.  Never lie though.  That will bite you later.

[Skip]

I understand that the Constitution is not recognized by the family courts. They’re separate. That doesn’t mean that I can’t recognize it as a citizen. Nothing has gone to court yet. Even if it was already in court, I have my rights. The family court wants to separate a person from their rights. They can’t do that. They can only make it hard. It’s a toxic system. The 5th amendment always applies.

JNChell, respectfully, stop spouting off and get serious here.

Family court has its own rules, works primarily by formula, and is there to process cases - not mend families. It has a female bias when it come to children.

If you want to optimize your visitation, you need to be a pillar of stability, learn the rules, learn the formula, give them what they like, and be professional and respectful about it.

Anything short of that will not serve you well.

Are you up to the task?

[formflier]

Hey JNChell.

I want to double down on comments from others about courts being a process..rules..etc etc.

This applies to military justice and civil justice (I was Skipper in military and county manager for a while after retirement), so a decent amount of time in court and an enormous amount of time with lawyers that will be representing me or the county/government in whatever issue was going on.

Family court is no different.  I would hope that your L (the high school friend) is familiar/made many appearances in that particular court (not one close by..but that exact court).  

Having someone that is familiar with the clerks and judges is invaluable.  

You are going to get more wacky questions.  Let your L take the lead.  Answer (or a better word is respond to them ) them all based on your Ls advice.  

Have them done early and (as long as blessed by your L) don't hand anything over until they are ready to respond in kind.

This is potentially useful because there may be a point in time where "judge we are trying to move forward and were ready with our answers on xx date and also yy date, yet the opposing party has thus far refused to provide their discovery"

Don't expect anything massive...the judge will order it provided...and then admonish them again when they are late.  Eventually if there is a party before the court that constantly flaunts the procedure...they will likely have a consequence.

I once got a judge to issue and order that a particular party could no longer file any papers whatsoever with the court, unless those papers were approved by a judge prior to filing.  (long story but I documented a long history of flaunting process/abusing process.)

You don't want to be that guy  Be a solution...not a problem.  A solution for the child is your focus.

Switching gears.

Are you on the birth certificate of the child?

Best,

FF

[JNChell]

Skip, I don’t think that I have any other choice. You know, I don’t sleep much. I am constantly thinking about my Son. From what you’ve said, I have to play a game to see my Son? I trust what you say. If it brings my Son and I back together, then yes, I’m up to the task.

[JNChell]

Hey, ff. I am on the birth certificate. What I’m starting to worry about is not getting a response back from my attorney. I have to try to communicate through her paralegal. I have her personal number, but I’m not the only client. I get that. I’m rattled by this 14 page request. She told me that her focus is family court. I asked her if she is familiar with parental alienation and high conflict people. She said she is and seemed to understand.

I just want to see my Son. He’s 5. I miss him and I know that he misses me. I’m scared to death that he will be taught to hate me. I haven’t seen him since July 19. Our first hearing is December 2. His birthday. 5:38 pm. If I can get this into mediation, The solution will be the desired outcome.

I’m also curious for your opinion, does the 5th amendment have any weight in family court?

[formflier]

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/fifth_amendment#:~:text=The%20Fifth%20Amendment%20of%20the,war%20or%20public%20danger%3B%20nor

I can't imagine how it would appear in family court.

Here is the thing.  Testimony under oath is just that..it has to be truthful or if it is found to not be truthful, that can be a big deal

If it turns out that they are going to ask you about criminal behavior and you can't truthfully deny it, then you need to have a long talk with your lawyer ahead of time.

I kinda don't think you are asking about that, but wanted to make that clear.

I think most of what you are worried about is crazy bpd theories showing up.

Again..take lawyers advice.  I hope lawyers advice is something along the lines of  "no I've never done x.  X would be harmful to my relationship with my son.  I regularly do Y in order to improve my relationship with my son."

Keep refocusing on what you are doing to improve the r/s with your son.

Best,

FF

[JNChell]

That’s kind of what I’m thinking. In our arguments about S5, it always went back to her and how she was feeling. She can’t focus on our Son without making it about her.  I don’t have a criminal past. I don’t know where it is right now. It just amazes me how a natural process ends up in hands like this.

What are your thoughts on the 5th?

[JNChell]

The 5th doesn’t fit in this. Thanks for the facts ff. Family courts are wide open under a facade of justice.

[Skip]

What is she asking for in addition to child support?

[JNChell]

As far as I can tell, complete control and very little time between S5 and I.

[formflier]

Can you share the actual words here for control and the schedule?

What kind of $$ is she wanting?

Best,

FF

[Skip]

[crossed with FF ]

Let's break it down.

1. Can you be more specific?

You mentioned child support. Did she detail how much or if she looking for just cash? Has she specified medical insurance costs? Daycare costs? Some states have very specific programs for determining child support:
Example: https://public.courts.in.gov/csc#/parents-home

If she hasn't disclosed this information, you can get it through discovery.

2. Custody

Did she mention sole legal custody? Supervised visitation? Has she proposed a visitation schedule? Different states have different practices. If she hasn't disclosed this information, you can get it through discovery.

Some states like Indiana have very specific schedules. In Indiana, for example,  the "standard" visitation for non-custodial parent is different at age 4 than at age 5.
https://www.in.gov/judiciary/rules/parenting/#_Toc470850883

It also has an "no BS" clause to protect you:

Unacceptable excuses for denying parenting time include the following:

The child unjustifiably hesitates or refuses to go. The child has a minor illness. The child has to go somewhere. The child is not home. The noncustodial parent is behind in support. The custodial parent does not want the child to go. The weather is bad (unless the weather makes travel unsafe). The child has no clothes to wear. The other parent failed to meet preconditions established by the custodial parent.

3. Has she proposed Temporary orders? Temporary orders would give you access to the child while the court case proceeds. Your December hearing has a high likelihood of being delayed (court dates are very fluid).

You can have your attorney contest her withholding the child and try to get agreement on temporary orders right away (in a few weeks).

4. Is your attorney a full time, divorce/family law attorney?

[formflier]

I'm curious if a different point of view would be productive...

JNChell

I get it that family court doesn't appear to be a pathway to justice.  I'm wondering if different words might frame the discussion better.

What if instead of justice you were looking for a "more fair" situation?

What if you saw family court as an "ally"?  

Right now who is on your side?  Who has any influence against this BPDish force that has come between you and your son?

Since your son is young the active coparenting relationship will go on between you and your pwBPD for a while.

I have personal experience through my ex brother in law of what family court and BPD looks like.  Looking back the courts ending up "restraining" most of the worst impulses and "forced" a pwBPD and the children into counseling situations.  

Then over time, the youngest child (my niece...the older two are boys) started to see the pwBPD for what she was.  The "triggering event" was when the pwBPD tried to "show my niece the error of her ways" by renting a house (when niece was young teen) with three bedrooms.  She then took my niece on a tour of the house and showed "this is Mommy's room, this is your brothers room and this is your other brothers room".  (My niece was supposed to exclaim and beg and plead...but where is my room?)

My niece had been with a therapist long enough to know this was horrible, so she decided to walk away and live with my ex brother in law.  That was 3 or 4 years ago (man time flies..maybe longer).

My niece is much more relaxed and she and her Dad have a wonderful relationship.  A delight to be around.  Niece chooses very limited contact with her Mom, while leaving the door open to therapy with Mom.

Here is the thing...if it was left up to my sister in law in the beginning, there would have been no therapy, no visitation and also lots of child support paid.

My ex brother is law was deeply disappointed in the first few rulings, but over time they slowly got better AND he focused on the family therapy and his relationship with his kids.

In fact, he wasn't much "of a fighter" in court.  He was quick to take a deal, get out the door and get back to being a Dad with whatever time he had.  (you can imagine FF was encouraging him to take names and kick azz...and I was disappointed in his choices at the time)

A bit of a long winded story to make the point to you that family court is a bump in the road on your journey as a Dad.  Keep the focus on this and find people/agencies that can help you be a better Dad.

 
Please be kind to yourself!

Best,

FF

[JNChell]

The verbiage used in the petition is the State Guidelines. She wants sole custody only allowing me visitation. The money was also stated as State Guidelines (the formula). This petition is asking for personal information of my friends and family. I don’t understand that part this early in the process. She has agreed to mediation. Why is her attorney being a pit bull so early on?

All I hope for is a fair and reasonable outcome. As his father, I need to be in the loop of whatever is going on with him. His healthcare, education and so on. His mom has blocked me from all of that. He’s almost 6, and I’ve been allowed to take him to 1 doctor appointment, and they almost wouldn’t see him because they didn’t know who I was.

I’ve just recently taken a 3rd shift job so that my days are open to be able to take him to these appointments when they arise. Obviously nothing is concrete yet, but I’m making space. I think it’s important for a dad to take his boy to these things. It shows him support and that dad is there for him, and it gives me piece of mind to know and understand what is going on with my Son.

Family Court as an ally:
I understand what you’re saying, and I’ve thought about that a lot. S5’s mom and myself need the help of the court because we have been unable to come to reasonable solutions between ourselves. S5’s mom and myself need this intervention to ensure the best outcome that is possible for S5.

Thanks for the testimony. It’s enlightening.

[formflier]

  His mom has blocked me from all of that.

And your pathway to become unblocked is through...? 

I’ve just recently taken a 3rd shift job so that my days are open to be able to take him to these appointments when they arise.

Yes..yes...I'm doing the jig.  This is exactly the kind of thing to "lead with" and then focus solutions on your son.

So you are not only asking for appointments...you want custody on a schedule during the day and then when you go to work he goes to sleep at Mom's house.  Perhaps sleeping at your place on weekends.

Best,

FF

[JNChell]

That’s what I’m trying for.

[Skip]

This petition is asking for personal information of my friends and family.
I don’t understand that part this early in the process. She has agreed to mediation. Why is her attorney being a pit bull so early on?

I think this is correct. You are not understanding the legal procedures. You have some expectation for how the process should unfold which is different than the way it actually unfolds. Her lawyer is preparing to go to court and win a judgement. The mediation is a excursion to see if you two can settle this and save lawyer fees and time... but the lawyer is preparing as if he has a court case. In the mediation, her lawyer is going to share with the mediator why he feels he has a strong case based on evidence. Your lawyer will do the same. The mediator is going to tell everyone, indirectly, how he thinks the judge will rule or how much risk you have to see if you will compromise.

That is how you settle.

The verbiage used in the petition is.
She wants sole custody
Visitation per the State Guidelines [as the custodial parent]
The money was also stated as State Guidelines.

So she is amenable to the standard package given to most families. Good. She is not trying to block your access or force you into supervised visitation. Be sure to review/confirm that with your lawyer. But, for the sake of general conversation, lets assume it's standard.

S5’s mom and myself need the help of the court because we have been unable to come to reasonable solutions between ourselves. S5’s mom and myself need this intervention to ensure the best outcome that is possible for S5.

Unfortunately, the courts way to do this is to give all the decisions to one party. Then there is no bickering. If she has a flash drive full of belligerent texts spanning months, the judge is going to be inclined to limit what the two of you need to talk about or negotiate and he is going to limit the number of physical  "handoffs" by sticking to standards.

All I hope for is a fair and reasonable outcome.

State Guidelines say the above of is a fair and reasonable outcome. If that is "All I hope for", you're there.

Do you now know why I said don't say "All I hope for is a fair and reasonable outcome".

Bottom line: If you accept the visitation and child support (maybe with some adjustments like a ramp up period),  you could probably negotiate some limited but important area's where you share decision making such as relocation, legal name, etc.,. and you could get an agreement on a parenting plan that talks about specific situations...

...you could sign and agreement and move forward quickly.

So you are not only asking for appointments...you want custody on a schedule during the day and then when you go to work he goes to sleep at Mom's house.  Perhaps sleeping at your place on weekends.

If you want to significantly deviate from the standard visitation, negotiate child support significantly different from the standard, and have 50%/50% shared decision making, she will likely just let it go to court and take her chances with what the judge will say (which could take a year or longer before its all done), .

I'm not a lawyer, nor am I giving you legal advise, I'm just trying to give you a 35,000 perspective on what is going on here, what the moving pieces are.

Family court runs by formula and it takes effort to get the courts to agree to deviations. It's not an "everything is on the table" negotiation. Unless both of you are talk openly and trust that each other, you are pretty bound to the formula.

Does that help?

[formflier]

So...in mediation, be willing to give up something else (above formula) to get to something you want that is (above formula).

Plus that will give your L some ammo to show that you are positioning yourself to be an "above average" Dad.  (this will hopefully provide some counterbalance to any big pile of bad texts that my show you to be contrary)

Something Skip mentioned that you should discuss with your L.  If in mediation or anytime early in the process you get a standard formula offer, you should probably take it...quickly.

The hard discussion you have to have with your L is  "what ammo do we possess that if we go to trial, we can move the judge away from the formula" and also "what ammo do they possess that if we go to trial can move the judge away from the formula"

Then..things should be much more clear to you.

Best,

FF

[JNChell]

I agree. The judge has to be moved away from the formula.

[Skip]

The judge has to be moved away from the formula.

So what are you thinking?

There are three parts. Custody. Visitation. Child support.

Visitation How specifically would you want to modify the standard visitation? What would be your rationale to the court to justify doing so?
https://www.in.gov/judiciary/rules/parenting/#_Toc470850883

One example might be that on your weekends, you pick him up from school on Friday and drop him off at school Monday morning. The rationale would be to minimize awkward exchanges.

Child support How specifically would you want to modify the standards for child support? What would be your rationale to the court to justify doing so?
https://public.courts.in.gov/csc#/parents-home

Custody She is asking for 100%. This is often done by courts when the parties can't work together. By your own admission, you two have a long history of not being able to make decisions together. How would you change this? If you were to compromise and  carve out some specific topics that are joint, what would they be (e.g. adoption, name change, faith change, relocation) in rank order with the most important one first. By rank order I mean assume you wouldn't get them all and a judge would draw the line at 1 or 3 of 7, what rank order list would you submit? What would be brief rationale for each.

Pick one (custody. visitation. child support). Let's talk about it.

[formflier]

How long until mediation?

Whatever path you choose to go on/go after, I can't stress enough that you need to be prepared and focus on what you want, be prepared to give up something significant (incentivize her), and be prepared to move quickly.

Can you reflect back to us why we are advising you to move quickly?

Best,

FF

[JNChell]

I’ll be back to answer questions shortly, will she be held to account for withholding him?

[JNChell]

Skip

Visitation How specifically would you want to modify the standard visitation? What would be your rationale to the court to justify doing so?

I’m asking for 3 weekends per month. This is because I took on a third shift job to keep my daytime hours open for S5 for doctor appointments, school meetings, dental appointments, etc. His mom has purposely blocked me from all of that. I don’t even know where he’s going to school, but I’m making space by working 3 rd shift to be able to be involved. It’s not a sacrifice, it’s necessary for S5 to know that his dad is there to support him.

I don’t know about child support. I was paying her until she said stop. She’s on many government handouts. Her boyfriend lives with her so expenses are shared. She lives in a suburban neighborhood in a 3 bedroom 2 bath house. 6 people live there. She has custody of 2 second cousins. I’m sure that she’s getting money from that. She has a daughter from her ex husband that is not paying support. I don’t really know because I have no idea what’s going on with him. I’m blocked from everything. She has refused to let me in on that aspect. She has told me that I don’t have any rights to him and that she will be making all the decisions.

I would change it with the help of the courts or mediation. She and I can’t do this, so we need intervention that is hopefully beneficial for S5. I picked them all.

[JNChell]

ff, I’m not sure about a mediation date. The initial hearing is set for Dec. 2. Ironically, that’s his birthday. 5:38 p.m.

I need to move quickly because I need to be prepared.

[Skip]

I’ll be back to answer questions shortly, will she be held to account for withholding him?

If it goes all the way to court, you both will be heavily punished by the legal fees. Behavior by either parent will be considered by the judge in making the best choice for the child... but generally the judge will be most concerned with doing what it takes to help the child have as constructive relationship with both parents as possible.

The initial hearing is set for Dec. 2.

You have a lawyer. She has a lawyer. Why don't you have your lawyer make a formal request to her lawyer for to have access to your son every other weekend and for 4 hours one day mid-week now? Let them set it up and work it so the two of you don't have to communicate or cross paths.

ff, I’m not sure about a mediation date. The initial hearing is set for Dec. 2.

The court will allow you to delay the date so that you can mediate. They want you to settle out of court if possible. Better for you. Better for the state.

I’m asking for 3 weekends per month.

There really isn't a schedule like that. The standard is a 60/40% schedule.

A 50%/50% looks like this:
https://www.custodyxchange.com/examples/schedules/50-50/

A 70%/30% looks like this:
https://www.custodyxchange.com/examples/schedules/70-30/

[JNChell]

I think that this is currently underway. My attorney’s first letter, petition, whatever, talked about S5 being withheld. I don’t know though. You’re speaking to temporary orders. Is that correct?

[Skip]

I think that this is currently underway. My attorney’s first letter, petition, whatever, talked about S5 being withheld. I don’t know though. You’re speaking to temporary orders. Is that correct?

Even before temporary orders, I would say I want the boy next weekend and the weekend two weeks later (or something like that). Have the lawyer demand access. If they say no, it will help you show bad faith.

DON'T TEXT HER. Let the lawyers do the talking.

[JNChell]

This is what I sent her paralegal.

I would like a formal request be made to S5’smom that I have him at least every other weekend until mediation and all other pursuits are done and agreed upon.

[JNChell]

I’m definitely not going to text her.

[Skip]

This is what I sent her paralegal.

I would like a formal request be made to S5’smom that I have him at least every other weekend until mediation and all other pursuits are done and agreed upon.

JNChell, her paralegal represents her interests, not yours. Besides, as it was said earlier, it is unethical with her lawyer or staff to work with you directly.  

Here are the Bar Associations Rules of Professional Conduct:

Rule 4.2 - Communication with Person Represented by Counsel In representing a client, a lawyer shall not communicate about the subject of the representation with a person the lawyer knows to be represented by another lawyer in the matter, unless the lawyer has the consent of the other lawyer or is authorized by law or a court order. Ind. R. Prof'l. Cond. 4.2

[formflier]

I’ll be back to answer questions shortly, will she be held to account for withholding him?

Doubtful that she will AND I think it would be unwise for you to pursue it.  I get it that likely isn't the answer you were hoping to hear.

Skip and others (and if you wanted to look over my earlier posts) can verify I wasn't (and perhaps still am) shy about "fighting" or "conflict".  I tell you this because there is a part of me that see's the injustice and wants to make it right...by whatever means needed. 

I share the story about my niece and ex brother in law because in the moment(s) I was rooting for him to "fight" with my sister in law, he had her dead to rights a few times, even skipped having her prosecuted for filing a false police report.

He had a very wise lawyer that encouraged him to focus on solutions he could live with and also to focus on counseling and long term relationships with his kids.  (no focus at all in "the battle of the moment").

Well...since he didn't fight with SIL...over time, she tried less and less to engage him in drama/fights.  All of his extra energy was focused on his kids.  He is "content" with where he is in his relationships with all his kids 2 boys and girl, and he and his daughter are a delight to be around. 

SIL is off doing her thing...4 or 5 marriages behind her (my ex bro in law was first) and she's kinda living with a guy now.  I don't think about her much.  I think about my niece often.

Again...a bit of long winded stuff from FF to attempt to focus you AWAY from "calling to account" and towards "a future you can live with". 

Once you find "contentment" with your son I think it will build into more than that.

In the meantime...be kind to yourself!

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Did some cross posting.

JNChell..I'm still getting to know you.

I'm a bureaucrat at heart, love to sit around and talk about process and all that kind of stuff.  I want to understand the "why" behind process and paperwork.

Anyway...I'm getting the vibe you aren't a "process" guy. (that's ok)   Well...it's ok in a general sense, but I assure you that you will benefit greatly from learning about the process of lawyers, courts and all that.

Basically...all roads go through YOUR paralegal or your L.  Your L will guide you in this.

I've hired some where L and I texted at all kinds of odd hours and one of the current Ls I've retained on a matter does everything through his paralegal.  (I've talked to her perhaps 10 times and him perhaps 2 or 3).

I can't stress enough to let everything flow to and then "through" your attorney...EVERYTHING.  Until you are specifically cleared to start doing something directly.

Best,

FF

[JNChell]

Holy PLEASE READ.! I’ve never read anything like that, ff.. The mom can withhold the child with impunity. Disgusting. Infuriating.

I just want to see my Son. He and I need our time together.

[JNChell]

Yeah, I’m fairly fluid. I’m a Libertarian that leans heavily to the right. I’m really not a process type of guy. I can be if the task at hand requires it, but it’s not a habit. It’s on notice.

The process of lawyers. What do you mean?

Cleared to do something directly. I think I get it but I’m not quite sure.

[formflier]

Any communication to "her" or "her people" or "her team" needs to go "through" your lawyers.  Most likely they will actually communicate it for you or perhaps they will instruct you on exactly what to say.

Best,

FF

[Skip]

yeah, I hope so. I want to see my boy. It’s almost crippling. I want to hug my child. It’s hard to not loose my temper. I want to hit things. I’m mad. I can’t see my Son, and I’m very mad about that. I know the truth about everything, but it’s not able to matter.

Should we dedicate this thread to talking strategy and tactics and use the other thread to talk about feelings?

[Skip]

I think that this is currently underway. My attorney’s first letter, petition, whatever, talked about S5 being withheld. I don’t know though. You’re speaking to temporary orders. Is that correct?

What has your attorney communicated so far? Take a look at the letter. Let's break this down. 

[JNChell]

I think that you should deligate  that.

[JNChell]

She’s said nothing so far.

[JNChell]

I just miss my Son.

[JNChell]

You all know the best route. I don’t. I would like help.

[Turkish]

What has your attorney communicated so far? Take a look at the letter. Let's break this down. 

JNChell, can you answer this question? The suggestion to post a separate thread about the emotional hurt about not seeing your son is a good one. Can you do that so as not to confuse what you need to do?

Respectfully, it's time to Man and Dad up and discuss what you need to do in order to get your son back to you. You feel devastated, as I would if my pups were withheld from me (I can't imagine that pain), but you need to be with us in the moment (mindful of the goal) if we are to help you. Can you do that?

[JNChell]

Turkish, thank you for the slap in the face. Yes, I can and will do that. I got a response back from the paralegal today stating that they will attempt to reinstate visitation before the initial hearing. Now, I guess that I wait. I hope that S5’s mom sees reason. I’m committed to no contact until something starts to happen. Contact between his mom and I is fruitless and a bad idea for me.

I’ve known my attorney since junior high. She was good friends with my best friend’s sister so all of us were together on the weekends for as long as that lasted. According to my best friend’s sister, this attorney eats people up in court that withhold children. I don’t want S5’s mom to be attacked on the stand. I don’t want to be attacked either. I’m hoping that we can hash this thing out in mediation. However, I’ve not been quiet towards her when it comes to S5 and my limited involvement in his life due to her control. Bottom line, that’s why the situation is here. I don’t have any quit in me, especially when it comes to my boy. I will not shut up until it’s reasonable and that his exposure to both parents is balanced. At least in a way where I can support him and he knows that dad is there for him beyond visitation. He needs that in his life. The research is there. I hope to see him soon.

[Turkish]

 It's good that you received a response.

According to my best friend’s sister, this attorney eats people up in court that withhold children. I don’t want S5’s mom to be attacked on the stand. I don’t want to be attacked either.

The goal is to see your son again, with legal protection to ensure that your contact with him is stable and consistent. That is, what's best for your son. 

[mpacific]

Our discovery request from H's ex was 70+ pages, her appeal is now 56 pages. It's daunting but now in our 3rd year we place bets on # of pages each discovery will be. Sigh. funny but not funny.

answer what you can and talk to your lawyer about questionable ones. There are some that H's lawyer objected to and he didn't have to answer. Keep your mental game strong for the end goal what's best for your child.

[JNChell]

Do I have to answer everything directly, or can I refuse to answer some questions?

[mpacific]

You can certainly object to responding to items.  Your attorney might still have you answer them, they should know what's best. Not knowing the questions or nature of what you are wanting to object to it's hard to say if it will help or hinder you at this point.

[formflier]

Do I have to answer everything directly, or can I refuse to answer some questions?

This answer is for you and your attorney

You should answer and be prepared to discuss in detail EVERY QUESTION...to your attorney (NOT THEIRS).  Don't be surprised if your attorney wants to understand the backstory or your best guess about why they are asking certain things.

Let your attorney advise what to send to their side.

Best,

FF

[Skip]

Not knowing the questions or nature of what you are wanting to object to it's hard to say if it will help or hinder you at this point.

What is it that you are worried about disclosing?

This is what I sent her paralegal.

I would like a formal request be made to S5’smom that I have him at least every other weekend until mediation and all other pursuits are done and agreed upon.

It might be helpful and energizing to spend some time looking into what you can be   negotiating for. You want to see your son. She is offering every other weekend and a weekday for 4 hours and 4 weeks over the summer. It's a no brainer that she should give you that access while the case is proceeding if you lawyer pushes for it. Why not have you lawyer specifically ask for every other weekend and every Wednesday (for 4 hours) and to have 4 weeks this summer?

One problem with not making a concerted effort to get at least 40% now (every other weekend, one day a week, and 4 weeks in the summer) is that it may signal to the court (or the mediator) that you are OK with less. When the temporary orders are written, judges tend to freeze the status quo and if you are not seeing him, they may freeze that.

Has your lawyer made a written demand for the record for you to have visitation starting immediately?

[JNChell]

Skip, I have nothing to hide from the court, and I think visitation is being worked on.

[formflier]

What is it that you are worried about disclosing?
 

Hopefully we can help you sort through and organize this, so that you can present "the bad stuff" as well as the good stuff to YOUR attorney.

They need to know everything..how you see it...how it appears the Mom see's it.  From there they can work on the best possible outcome for you.

DO NOT LET YOUR ATTORNEY GET AMBUSHED with provable (or even unprovable) stuff against you that you know about/worry about now.

OK..kinda a funny story but it illustrates a point.  

Those that have followed me get that I've been in real estate (flipping, rentals..you name it I've likely done it) as a "sideline" (many times feels like the main thing) for years.  We had a painter for a number of years that did great work for us..but was a bit of a moron.

We also had a great real estate attorney that turned into a good friend.  So when our painter told us his wife was divorcing him and taking him to the cleaners...we wanted to help (remember..good painter but not smart).

So we leaned on our attorney to help him and so "he took the case".  Perhaps pro bono or perhaps we promised him steak dinners and lots of beer...I don't remember.

Attorney sits the painter down and learns the wife claims painter was cheating so she was leaving him.  I think "divorce for cause" was allowable in this state.

Attorney asks him why she would think that and he claimed he had no idea, that there was nothing out there to indicate he was...basically full denial..she's just crazy.

They go to a hearing or perhaps the final court thing (again details are fuzzy)..but she is under oath and attorney is questioning her.

Blah blah blah you can't prove it my client has never cheated on you.

her:  Oh..I can prove it easily

Attorney:  Ok..how

her:  It's on his facebook.  She whips out screenshots and I think they even logged in and...there it was
The painter was "engaged" to a girl that was not his wife..pictures everywhere.

Painter hangs his head..."oh...that.."

Attorney just asked where to sign the settlement.

Did I mention something about the painter not being smart...

Sigh...

You can't make this stuff up.  Don't be "that guy" that shows up in stories like this.

Best,

FF

[JNChell]

I plan on being transparent if it goes to court. I’m still waiting to have that conversation with my attorney.

[Skip]

I think visitation is being worked on.

JNChell, attorneys are busy and they tend to put things off to the last minute as many things go away (e.g., couples settle, or take a break in the suit). It's important that if you have a priority that you manage the attorney to take action.

You want to see your boy. Up until now that was a privilege biomom handed out at her pleasure. Your in family court now and that privilege is now up to the judge... even if you settle in mediation, the key factor will be what the judge would likely do if it went to court.

Have you seen a copy of a letter or a court filing made to the court demanding visitation? If not, it has not been done.

-- Does it you help to hear these things?

[JNChell]

I haven’t seen that letter. I suppose it helps. I understand that attorneys are busy. I keep that in mind. It’s very hard to not spend time with my Son. His pictures are on my walls and mantle. He’s in my phone. I have a memory box of his drawings and crafts. He is 20 minutes away, and I can’t see him. It’s been two and a half months now. I don’t feel well. The stress is taking its toll. She feels nothing but in control. She can’t even think about our Boy. My resentment towards her is high.

[Skip]

Would a zoom call with your attorney be helpful - to get the visitation request in process and to talk about what they need from you for discovery?

[formflier]

Would a zoom call with your attorney be helpful - to get the visitation request in process and to talk about what they need from you for discovery?

And also...how many attorneys and paralegals work in your attorneys office.

My fingers are crossed that your attorney has a paralegal or two that work exclusively for her.

If that is the case, it's very likely your attorney would like/prefer you to communicate directly to the paralegal, especially about admin details.

"Hey (paralegal name).  Can you confirm if the custody letter has been filed with court/sent to opposing counsel?  If so, please email me a copy."

A great paralegal makes the entire attorney experience much easier, since admin stuff can be handled at a much lower level.

Hey...I want to echo Skip's question.  Is our input helpful?  What parts do you find frustrating or hard to understand?

Best,

FF

[JNChell]

I don’t know guys. I sent an email to my attorney’s paralegal asking if anything can be done to enforce visitation before the initial hearing. Paralegal said that she forwarded it to my attorney and that they will see if they can make anything happen.

[JNChell]

The input is very helpful. I’m sorry if I don’t receive it in a diligent way. I’m not trying to make excuses, but I’m emotionally spent over not seeing my Son. I’m terrified of not ever seeing him again. He and I have a great relationship. At least we did. His mom thinks that he’s her property. That he’s part of her identity or existence. If she’s mad at me, she’ll use our boy to punish me. It’s been this way since he was born.

[JNChell]

Yes, I see everything that is being explained. I also agree with it. There are other parts, and I don’t want to make this a run-on post, but there are things that are very hard to keep to myself when it comes to her. Very upsetting things.

Boundaries: She is saying that boundaries need to be put in place before I can see my Son again. I’m adopted and she tracked down and contacted both of my bio parents after I told her that I wasn’t for that. She hacked into my online accounts to read about my activity. I caught her doing it. She refused to apologize. She took a vehicle that I owned (title). She broke up with me one day out of dozens. I told her that I wanted the vehicle in my driveway by the time I got home from work. She told me that I wouldn’t see my Son if I didn’t give her the vehicle. I signed the title over the very next day.

I should’ve kept the vehicle because here I am. A narcissist is withholding a child from the father. Gee, that’s not common.

She has said that I have to take her to court if I want to see our Son. She also wants me to pay her legal fees after telling me that if I want to see our Son, I have to take her to court.

My hate meter is on 12.

Emails, texts and that stuff. She has it all. When things got peaceful and reasonable between us, I erased that stuff 4 times. I really have nothing except my words. She saves everything. Christ, she saved a copy of an emergency custody order before our boy was even born. I saw it, but I stayed.

[Turkish]

I most things deleted can be recovered. You need to look into this. 

[Skip]

Has your attorney gotten your discovery to her?

Here's the deal. You can ask her to produce all her email and texts. Don't tell her you dumped yours. Delay your response (have your attorney ask for more time when you get close to the deadline). As long as she doesn't know you dumped your copies, she will probably supply everything she has so that she is not caught withholding. Remember, she will be under oath.

Lawyers do this all the time.

I’m terrified of not ever seeing him again.

Why? Her starting point is standard visitation. She hasn't filled to block your access or make it supervised. She can't withhold your son for non-payment of child support.

You can get through this, man, but you have to get it in gear.

Boundaries: She is saying that boundaries need to be put in place before I can see my Son again.

What is she looking for from you?

[JNChell]

Turkish & Skip. I’ve wondered about things being able to be recovered and I’ve also wondered about being able to subpoena her emails and texts. This has me feeling a bit better after reading your responses. I will send my paralegal an email to inquire about this. I could use some help with the wording of that message if anyone is willing.

Yes, she is pursuing state standards for visitation, but she also has a pattern of moving the goalposts when it suits her. I can see her doubling down if she starts to feel pressure as this process moves forward.

I think that our Son is the only thing that she has left to control me with. I could be wrong, but it sure feels that way. She knows full and well how I feel about him. I signed over a substantial piece of property to her over a simple threat of withholding. I showed my hand. I’ve also made the mistake of putting her on point and explaining to her that I know who she is and what she does. Again, I may be wrong but maybe fear of exposure is part of it as well.

I am in gear, Skip. This is just a new thing for me and I’m very uncomfortable with it all. I’m not dragging my feat, I’m doing what I can to get up to speed.

As far as asking for her discovery and a subpoena for her correspondence between she and I, will you please lay out how and when I should take these actions with my attorney? I really appreciate the support. I’d be lost and a mess without everyone’s help.

[formflier]

Is there anyway to prove (written/text) that she demanded the vehicle in exchange for visitation?

Make sure your attorney knows about this.

For some reason..that especially ticks me off. 

Sigh...I hope you don't hear any doubt or criticism for being mad at her.  You have every right to be.

My hope is that you can use the anger to guide/fuel your response

Hang in there man.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Turkish & Skip.
Yes, she is pursuing state standards for visitation, but she also has a pattern of moving the goalposts when it suits her. I can see her doubling down if she starts to feel pressure as this process moves forward.
 

This is where court if your friend.  Formulas are your friend.

Unless there is clear or compelling evidence for something other than the formula...that generally happens.

I would not say "subpoena" the emails, I would do "discovery".

You can say (have your attorney say) that your discovery is ready and you will hand it over when they provide theirs. 

That way you don't hand it over and then end up empty handed and trying to "compel" discovery.

Best,

FF

[JNChell]

Hey, ff. Thanks! The messages about the vehicle are likely buried in the correspondence that she has saved. This happened roughly 4-5 years ago. I know that the timeline isn’t in my favor, but I’m hoping to structure an argument that shows a pattern of withholding and using our boy as a control mechanism. If I get the correspondence that I know she has, I’ll have the pattern to present. It’s all there.

[JNChell]

Ok. I’d like to send an email to my attorney’s paralegal today. I just want to confirm everything here.

I will provide my discovery when S5’s mom does.

I want all of the correspondence between she and I.

There are other things such as financials and the like. How much is her boyfriend contributing to the standard of living? How much is she receiving from the state as the legal guardian of two of her second cousins? Why are they in therapy, but our Son hasn’t even been evaluated?

I want a list of all of S5’s care providers and who has been watching over him when mom isn’t able to.

I want a list of his health care providers.

I want all medical/dental records that are on file for him.

I want all correspondence between his mom and child psychologists that she has spoken to about having him evaluated, and why he has not yet been evaluated.

I want to know where he is attending school and who his teacher is.

I want to know about his living situation. Does he have his own bedroom? To the best of my knowledge, there are six people living in a three bedroom house.

I want to know if her daughter’s father is paying child support.

Are these appropriate measures? Should I add or delete to this list?

[GaGrl]

We cross-posted...see below.

JNChell, you are spending a lot of emotional energy n this, and you 're doing a lot of work with the para-legal.

It might be time to make an appointment for a face-to-face with your lawyer, even if it costs more than the para-legal. If you have a solid list of questions, you can get a lot done in an hour, and it may give you a sense of confidence that your case is moving forward and some peace of mind.

If you did that, what would your list of questions be? Can we work on that?

[JNChell]

That’s what I’m asking. If there is something wrong with my questions, I’d like to know. I have to assume that you see discrepancies. What do you see? Will you tell me?

[Skip]

Ok. I’d like to send an email to my attorney’s paralegal today. I just want to confirm everything here.

It's Saturday. I encourage you to work through a plan with members this weekend and send it early Monday morning.

[JNChell]

Ok. Sounds good.

[Skip]

I think setting priorities is important right now. Don't get lost with tangents.

It might be time to make an appointment for a face-to-face with your lawyer..//.. If you did that, what would your list of questions be? Can we work on that?

This is a good starting point.

I know you are worried about the truck. What was it's value? If you had paid child support, what would that amount have been at this point?

[JNChell]

The vehicle was quite a while ago. 4 years plus. Hell, we got back together and broke up several times after that. I just want to be able to show a pattern of how she uses our Son.

I remember talking about it here and you agreed that it was basically extortion. I have no legal leg to stand on, but it’s a big example of how she’s been using our kiddo.

You know, there are no winners in this. It’s a competition for her. She wants to put me in the hurt locker and isn’t thinking about our Son and what things like this can do to him. I’ve sent her the proof from Childress, but that was pointless. Even if she read, it wouldn’t matter.

[Skip]

JNChell, to keep this simple.

Would you agree to the following today (if you could).

  Accept the standard 60/40% offered.
  Accept the standard child support.
  Accept limited shared legal custody (decision making) - share only the most significant decisions

And be done with it?

[JNChell]

I will accept that in order to see S5 again. I can’t commit to it permanently. Perhaps what you laid out for me is a realistic and best case scenario outcome?

[Skip]

JNChell, this is what she is offering you and this is better than the majority of offers we see here.

My point (my only point) is that this doesn't need to be a protracted emotional war... it could be simply, "ok, I'll take that with a few tweaks".  In this case, your focus is the tweaks.

Most importantly, you don't have to litigate every single wrong the two of you feel you suffered. You can wipe the slate clean, let go, move forward. Develop a parenting plan that has minimal interface for the two of you (like you pick him up from school on Friday and drop him off Monday morning.

Would that work for you? Could you live with that?

[JNChell]

Yes.

[Skip]

So this means that the two of you are close in your negotiation before ever sitting down. It means you don't have to have a full scale war. It means you can focus on finding sterile ways to move forward. It means, if you can let the past go, it will be gone.

With respect to her being the legal guardian, it would seem to me that getting an agreement on certain decisions as part of the settlement will help - for example, you could agree to whether he will be raised within a specific faith denomination.

What types of decisions like this do you think could be written into the agreement to make you feel good about your sons relationship?

[JNChell]

Yes, I’d feel alright with that under the assumption that the goal posts don’t move.

Skip, I simply want to be a father. I want the responsibility that comes with that. I want to know about his doctor, education. All of that stuff. I simply want to be able to be his dad. I don’t want to go to war. That doesn’t interest me. I just want to resume the relationship with my Son. I miss him.

[JNChell]

With that being said, I’d like to have a solid message to send to my attorney’s paralegal tomorrow. Can you help me with that?

[JNChell]

I hate her. It’s crossed the line of unforgivable.

[Skip]

With that being said, I’d like to have a solid message to send to my attorney’s paralegal tomorrow. Can you help me with that?

As GaGrl suggested, send your email to the attorney (not his assistant) asking for 1 hour zoom meeting this week to discuss the case including:

  what is needed from you for the attorney to complete your discovery (question by question)
  to get a date for when your attorney will have a draft of discovery questions to ask your ex
  to tell the attorney to contact the other party to

arrange visitation on October 10th, 11th, 25th and November 1st set a single date for both parties to respond to their discovery at the same time (as suggested by FormFlier) select a mediator and agree to a mediation date

Check you anger at the door. This professional is in place to help you get your son, not counsel you on your anger with the ex. It will be much cheaper to air thath with your T than with your lawyer. Be disciplined.

[JNChell]

Ok.

[GaGrl]

I hate her. It’s crossed the line of unforgivable.

To reiterate Skip's comment...

This has no place in your legal dealings. Your lawyer is not your therapist -- don't spend extra dollars pouring out your anger to the lawyer.

At some point, you might do some therapy work on forgiveness. Forgiveness is not for the benefit of the person who wronged you. Forgiveness is for us, for you -- so you can move on with focus on what is important in your life now, and not live in the past and negative emotions from that past.

[Skip]

Two hours later she calls and asks if she and the kids can spend the night. I paused and said ok. 5 seconds later she comes crashing through the door in a rage. Calling me an insane douche bag and anything else that you can think of. She was doubled over and screaming at me. She was sitting in the driveway when she made the phone call. She screamed at me that I didn’t answer in the way that she wanted. I don’t remember a lot past her rage. I remember sitting on the couch with my head in my hands. Dry mouth and shaking.

I poured gasoline on my kitchen floor and I burnt my house and possessions to the ground. I was planning to shoot myself in the head. Somehow, that didn’t happen.  I spent 8 days in a psych unit in the aftermath.

S5’s mom and I got back together after this. Can you believe that? There was another incident where I became suicidal and it is now over.

You need to dial your attorney into the fire, the suicidal ideation, and the angry texts. He will need to work around this from the get go...

[formflier]

Wow JNChell, I hope you understand that we "get" and "believe" the depth of emotion surrounding all of this.

I also hope...that you get and understand our concern that separate your emotional recovery from the procedures of dealing with your attorney..courts and all that.

All that being said, make sure your attorney understands the severity of the broken relationship and a lot of history that may (very likely) show up in court.

It is important that you can show the courts (and anyone else) that YOU have been doing big work (proactively and on your own) to be a better parent and have better coparenting relationships with the Mom, REGARDLESS of what she is or isn't doing.

Example timeline.

Bad texts from 2019 and 2020. 

Since the time of those texts you need to show

1.  parenting class
2.  therapy for you/family therapy
3.  parenting books

Something like that.

There is a lot going on here.  It's important for you to be prepared for your Zoom call with the attorney.

Best,

FF

[PearlsBefore]

 

Sounds like you're having a really rough time; I don't have much to add because it looks like others here have already advised pretty much all the same things I would say, and your situation is very different from my own. It sounds like you've got a good head on your shoulders, even if therapy is strongly recommended on the side, and it's a good sign that you're not looking to alienate the child from your ex.

From a quick read of the roller coaster here, I'd say that focusing your attention on the insistence that you have some decision-making rights and are ALWAYS to be informed of major decisions she has made (your son is taking art classes, he's got a new therapist, he's spending a week with his grandparents in Michigan, etc)...that seems like your easiest victory. Similarly, a judge does not require much evidence/proof to order her that she has to send you photos of him every week/month, etc.

Some of the larger issues will be very taxing and will hopefully get worked out in mediation without ever needing to go to a trial (both parents always leave upset and disappointed after trial) - but in the "interim" time between now and a final decision, I would bet money that a judge will say she has to send photos, has to inform you of all major decisions, and possibly even consult you prior to making those decisions so you can have input in the decision.

[Skip]

She has some things to leverage against you and she may. The fire, the suicidal ideation, and the angry texts. We also talked earlier about alcohol and drugs.

Does her discovery ask questions related to these items?

She could ask for mutual drug test or alcohol tests.

Drugs can be detected up to 72 days after the fact. Signs of alcohol abuse can also be detected weeks after quitting.

My suggestion is to stop immediately. You can most likely delay any testing to give you time to clean up if you start now. Social drinking and casual pot use wouldn't be a big deal, except that you have evidence floating out there that show that your actions can be life threatening (to you and by extension, to anyone around you).

1.  parenting class
2.  therapy for you/family therapy
3.  parenting books

We mentioned anger management class... I know you don't like that thought, but having that will be a help. Talk to your lawyer - he may suggest a different program like CBT (which can be used for anger management but sounds better).

Right now you are consumed by emotion and that will concern a judge. The judge doesn't want to fix you, he just wants to avoid putting a child in a risky position. He certainly fears making any decision that could end up as front page news if something goes wrong.

Don't be discourage by this, please. My message is to build a case that shows that  all of that stuff is behind you.

[kells76]

Don't be discourage by this, please. My message is to build a case that shows that  all of that stuff is behind you.

This is so true. We all have a backstory and a past. The issue isn't that; it's how we use our pasts to drive our futures.

There's a big difference between someone standing in front of a judge trying to minimize stuff from the past ("Come on, it wasn't that big of a deal. Everybody does it, and anyway, my ex did it more. I swear I'm fine now.") and someone stepping up and taking responsibility, and showing how they can integrate the choices they made with who they are now, especially in a parental role:

"Your honor, it's true that in the past, I did X, Y, and Z. I'm not proud of it, and last year I knew I needed to change to be the best dad my boy could have. I took a CBT course for 6 weeks, started and continued individual counseling, and bought and read Daniel Siegel's parenting books. I make sure to share any struggles I have with my T and we make a plan together for how I can be the best me I can, for my son."

Coming up with the list of questions for your L showed me that you want to engage with this process. So, thumbs up 

There are some other things about being in this process, too, that Skip is talking about. And one of those things is what I'm talking about here -- it's how do you reconcile your past with the present in a way that shows that you're stepping up and taking responsibility for yourself. You're not trying to hide anything -- and, in fact, this is to your (and your son's) advantage. Your ex might try to undermine you by saying all kinds of stuff about your past. She might try to make it look like you're still that person. The way around that -- so she can't use your past against you in court to try to keep your son from you -- is to get ahead of it, make an end run around her, by taking responsibility for what happened and showing you learned from it.

One way to look at it is like a middle school math class. There are kids who are smart enough to do the whole problem in their head and just write the answer on paper. Yeah, they got it right, but the teacher needs to know how they got there. It might be a pain, or not fair, that they have to show their work. But it's just a way of showing other people the reality of what is inside them.

Same with you and stuff like parenting classes, or reading parenting books, or taking a CBT course. You've done a ton of work here, and it might not seem "fair" that you have to "prove" you're a good dad. You know in your head and heart the love and care you have for your son. But there's a "math teacher" out there -- the courts, the judge -- who won't "give you credit" if you don't "show your work".

Circling back... if the best and most effective way to be there for your son, to be Dad to him, to have you in his life, was to "show the work" on the homework problem, I bet you'd do it. It's a way of communicating to others that "yeah, I started way over there at X, and things were rough. Here's what I did to learn and grow and change, and now I'm at Y, because that's the kind of man my son needs as a dad". If a person just shows X, and then Y, questions rightly come up -- OK, so, what was the process? How did you get here from there?

Don't give your ex fuel for her disorder by not filling in your own blanks, your own story. Own it, take responsibility for it, and I guarantee you will deflate and disarm her. She can't pull out a "surprise" as a bomb if you've already talked about it openly and how it's not a part of your life any more.

And it can be part of your healing, too, to integrate those parts of your life and make sense of them in a coherent narrative.

Short story...

Back when we were meeting with a L and planning for if stuff went to court, DH and I were asking our L about if anything from our pasts would be a problem. I had a criminal record for some, uh, stuff I did after college, but when I brought it up to see if it could be used against us or DH, L just laughed when he heard the context and explanation.

Don't be shy with your L in laying it all out, all the dirty laundry, questions, what about this, what about this other thing I did. You may be surprised about what is a big deal and what isn't. Like FF mentioned in one of your posts, you really, really don't want the first time your L hears about something to be from the other side. And like Skip said, some stuff we think might be an issue, might not be ("Social drinking and casual pot use wouldn't be a big deal, except...") depending on the context.

You can do this... I know you want to stand up for your boy. This is a big way you can do it.

[ForeverDad]

I apologize if this question has already been asked and answered but I'm sitting in the hospital and and it's awkward for me to read all these posts I've missed in the last few weeks...

You lamented a slow response from your lawyer. What are his qualifications to handle a child custody case? Is he a divorce/custody/parenting lawyer? If he's not then perhaps his slowness to reply maybe due to him being out of water in this field of his legal practice? There's nothing wrong if he's not the right lawyer for you and you ask him or others with appropriate knowledge to recommend a better lawyer to handle your case.

[formflier]

  I know you want to stand up for your boy. This is a big way you can do it.

This!

One of the things that motivated me to work on "my stuff" is the desire to  bet the best I can for my kids.

The other thing is that I realized there will be some level of "BPDish" influence on my kids from my wife and inlaws...well, forever really.  I wanted to present a "healthy" alternative.

You've got this JNChell.

Best,

FF