Petition for discovery

[JNChell]

That’s what I’m asking. If there is something wrong with my questions, I’d like to know. I have to assume that you see discrepancies. What do you see? Will you tell me?

[Skip]

Ok. I’d like to send an email to my attorney’s paralegal today. I just want to confirm everything here.

It's Saturday. I encourage you to work through a plan with members this weekend and send it early Monday morning.

[JNChell]

Ok. Sounds good.

[Skip]

I think setting priorities is important right now. Don't get lost with tangents.

It might be time to make an appointment for a face-to-face with your lawyer..//.. If you did that, what would your list of questions be? Can we work on that?

This is a good starting point.

I know you are worried about the truck. What was it's value? If you had paid child support, what would that amount have been at this point?

[JNChell]

The vehicle was quite a while ago. 4 years plus. Hell, we got back together and broke up several times after that. I just want to be able to show a pattern of how she uses our Son.

I remember talking about it here and you agreed that it was basically extortion. I have no legal leg to stand on, but it’s a big example of how she’s been using our kiddo.

You know, there are no winners in this. It’s a competition for her. She wants to put me in the hurt locker and isn’t thinking about our Son and what things like this can do to him. I’ve sent her the proof from Childress, but that was pointless. Even if she read, it wouldn’t matter.

[Skip]

JNChell, to keep this simple.

Would you agree to the following today (if you could).

  Accept the standard 60/40% offered.
  Accept the standard child support.
  Accept limited shared legal custody (decision making) - share only the most significant decisions

And be done with it?

[JNChell]

I will accept that in order to see S5 again. I can’t commit to it permanently. Perhaps what you laid out for me is a realistic and best case scenario outcome?

[Skip]

JNChell, this is what she is offering you and this is better than the majority of offers we see here.

My point (my only point) is that this doesn't need to be a protracted emotional war... it could be simply, "ok, I'll take that with a few tweaks".  In this case, your focus is the tweaks.

Most importantly, you don't have to litigate every single wrong the two of you feel you suffered. You can wipe the slate clean, let go, move forward. Develop a parenting plan that has minimal interface for the two of you (like you pick him up from school on Friday and drop him off Monday morning.

Would that work for you? Could you live with that?

[JNChell]

Yes.

[Skip]

So this means that the two of you are close in your negotiation before ever sitting down. It means you don't have to have a full scale war. It means you can focus on finding sterile ways to move forward. It means, if you can let the past go, it will be gone.

With respect to her being the legal guardian, it would seem to me that getting an agreement on certain decisions as part of the settlement will help - for example, you could agree to whether he will be raised within a specific faith denomination.

What types of decisions like this do you think could be written into the agreement to make you feel good about your sons relationship?

[JNChell]

Yes, I’d feel alright with that under the assumption that the goal posts don’t move.

Skip, I simply want to be a father. I want the responsibility that comes with that. I want to know about his doctor, education. All of that stuff. I simply want to be able to be his dad. I don’t want to go to war. That doesn’t interest me. I just want to resume the relationship with my Son. I miss him.

[JNChell]

With that being said, I’d like to have a solid message to send to my attorney’s paralegal tomorrow. Can you help me with that?

[JNChell]

I hate her. It’s crossed the line of unforgivable.

[Skip]

With that being said, I’d like to have a solid message to send to my attorney’s paralegal tomorrow. Can you help me with that?

As GaGrl suggested, send your email to the attorney (not his assistant) asking for 1 hour zoom meeting this week to discuss the case including:

  what is needed from you for the attorney to complete your discovery (question by question)
  to get a date for when your attorney will have a draft of discovery questions to ask your ex
  to tell the attorney to contact the other party to

arrange visitation on October 10th, 11th, 25th and November 1st set a single date for both parties to respond to their discovery at the same time (as suggested by FormFlier) select a mediator and agree to a mediation date

Check you anger at the door. This professional is in place to help you get your son, not counsel you on your anger with the ex. It will be much cheaper to air thath with your T than with your lawyer. Be disciplined.

[JNChell]

Ok.

[GaGrl]

I hate her. It’s crossed the line of unforgivable.

To reiterate Skip's comment...

This has no place in your legal dealings. Your lawyer is not your therapist -- don't spend extra dollars pouring out your anger to the lawyer.

At some point, you might do some therapy work on forgiveness. Forgiveness is not for the benefit of the person who wronged you. Forgiveness is for us, for you -- so you can move on with focus on what is important in your life now, and not live in the past and negative emotions from that past.

[Skip]

Two hours later she calls and asks if she and the kids can spend the night. I paused and said ok. 5 seconds later she comes crashing through the door in a rage. Calling me an insane douche bag and anything else that you can think of. She was doubled over and screaming at me. She was sitting in the driveway when she made the phone call. She screamed at me that I didn’t answer in the way that she wanted. I don’t remember a lot past her rage. I remember sitting on the couch with my head in my hands. Dry mouth and shaking.

I poured gasoline on my kitchen floor and I burnt my house and possessions to the ground. I was planning to shoot myself in the head. Somehow, that didn’t happen.  I spent 8 days in a psych unit in the aftermath.

S5’s mom and I got back together after this. Can you believe that? There was another incident where I became suicidal and it is now over.

You need to dial your attorney into the fire, the suicidal ideation, and the angry texts. He will need to work around this from the get go...

[formflier]

Wow JNChell, I hope you understand that we "get" and "believe" the depth of emotion surrounding all of this.

I also hope...that you get and understand our concern that separate your emotional recovery from the procedures of dealing with your attorney..courts and all that.

All that being said, make sure your attorney understands the severity of the broken relationship and a lot of history that may (very likely) show up in court.

It is important that you can show the courts (and anyone else) that YOU have been doing big work (proactively and on your own) to be a better parent and have better coparenting relationships with the Mom, REGARDLESS of what she is or isn't doing.

Example timeline.

Bad texts from 2019 and 2020. 

Since the time of those texts you need to show

1.  parenting class
2.  therapy for you/family therapy
3.  parenting books

Something like that.

There is a lot going on here.  It's important for you to be prepared for your Zoom call with the attorney.

Best,

FF

[PearlsBefore]

 

Sounds like you're having a really rough time; I don't have much to add because it looks like others here have already advised pretty much all the same things I would say, and your situation is very different from my own. It sounds like you've got a good head on your shoulders, even if therapy is strongly recommended on the side, and it's a good sign that you're not looking to alienate the child from your ex.

From a quick read of the roller coaster here, I'd say that focusing your attention on the insistence that you have some decision-making rights and are ALWAYS to be informed of major decisions she has made (your son is taking art classes, he's got a new therapist, he's spending a week with his grandparents in Michigan, etc)...that seems like your easiest victory. Similarly, a judge does not require much evidence/proof to order her that she has to send you photos of him every week/month, etc.

Some of the larger issues will be very taxing and will hopefully get worked out in mediation without ever needing to go to a trial (both parents always leave upset and disappointed after trial) - but in the "interim" time between now and a final decision, I would bet money that a judge will say she has to send photos, has to inform you of all major decisions, and possibly even consult you prior to making those decisions so you can have input in the decision.

[Skip]

She has some things to leverage against you and she may. The fire, the suicidal ideation, and the angry texts. We also talked earlier about alcohol and drugs.

Does her discovery ask questions related to these items?

She could ask for mutual drug test or alcohol tests.

Drugs can be detected up to 72 days after the fact. Signs of alcohol abuse can also be detected weeks after quitting.

My suggestion is to stop immediately. You can most likely delay any testing to give you time to clean up if you start now. Social drinking and casual pot use wouldn't be a big deal, except that you have evidence floating out there that show that your actions can be life threatening (to you and by extension, to anyone around you).

1.  parenting class
2.  therapy for you/family therapy
3.  parenting books

We mentioned anger management class... I know you don't like that thought, but having that will be a help. Talk to your lawyer - he may suggest a different program like CBT (which can be used for anger management but sounds better).

Right now you are consumed by emotion and that will concern a judge. The judge doesn't want to fix you, he just wants to avoid putting a child in a risky position. He certainly fears making any decision that could end up as front page news if something goes wrong.

Don't be discourage by this, please. My message is to build a case that shows that  all of that stuff is behind you.

[kells76]

Don't be discourage by this, please. My message is to build a case that shows that  all of that stuff is behind you.

This is so true. We all have a backstory and a past. The issue isn't that; it's how we use our pasts to drive our futures.

There's a big difference between someone standing in front of a judge trying to minimize stuff from the past ("Come on, it wasn't that big of a deal. Everybody does it, and anyway, my ex did it more. I swear I'm fine now.") and someone stepping up and taking responsibility, and showing how they can integrate the choices they made with who they are now, especially in a parental role:

"Your honor, it's true that in the past, I did X, Y, and Z. I'm not proud of it, and last year I knew I needed to change to be the best dad my boy could have. I took a CBT course for 6 weeks, started and continued individual counseling, and bought and read Daniel Siegel's parenting books. I make sure to share any struggles I have with my T and we make a plan together for how I can be the best me I can, for my son."

Coming up with the list of questions for your L showed me that you want to engage with this process. So, thumbs up 

There are some other things about being in this process, too, that Skip is talking about. And one of those things is what I'm talking about here -- it's how do you reconcile your past with the present in a way that shows that you're stepping up and taking responsibility for yourself. You're not trying to hide anything -- and, in fact, this is to your (and your son's) advantage. Your ex might try to undermine you by saying all kinds of stuff about your past. She might try to make it look like you're still that person. The way around that -- so she can't use your past against you in court to try to keep your son from you -- is to get ahead of it, make an end run around her, by taking responsibility for what happened and showing you learned from it.

One way to look at it is like a middle school math class. There are kids who are smart enough to do the whole problem in their head and just write the answer on paper. Yeah, they got it right, but the teacher needs to know how they got there. It might be a pain, or not fair, that they have to show their work. But it's just a way of showing other people the reality of what is inside them.

Same with you and stuff like parenting classes, or reading parenting books, or taking a CBT course. You've done a ton of work here, and it might not seem "fair" that you have to "prove" you're a good dad. You know in your head and heart the love and care you have for your son. But there's a "math teacher" out there -- the courts, the judge -- who won't "give you credit" if you don't "show your work".

Circling back... if the best and most effective way to be there for your son, to be Dad to him, to have you in his life, was to "show the work" on the homework problem, I bet you'd do it. It's a way of communicating to others that "yeah, I started way over there at X, and things were rough. Here's what I did to learn and grow and change, and now I'm at Y, because that's the kind of man my son needs as a dad". If a person just shows X, and then Y, questions rightly come up -- OK, so, what was the process? How did you get here from there?

Don't give your ex fuel for her disorder by not filling in your own blanks, your own story. Own it, take responsibility for it, and I guarantee you will deflate and disarm her. She can't pull out a "surprise" as a bomb if you've already talked about it openly and how it's not a part of your life any more.

And it can be part of your healing, too, to integrate those parts of your life and make sense of them in a coherent narrative.

Short story...

Back when we were meeting with a L and planning for if stuff went to court, DH and I were asking our L about if anything from our pasts would be a problem. I had a criminal record for some, uh, stuff I did after college, but when I brought it up to see if it could be used against us or DH, L just laughed when he heard the context and explanation.

Don't be shy with your L in laying it all out, all the dirty laundry, questions, what about this, what about this other thing I did. You may be surprised about what is a big deal and what isn't. Like FF mentioned in one of your posts, you really, really don't want the first time your L hears about something to be from the other side. And like Skip said, some stuff we think might be an issue, might not be ("Social drinking and casual pot use wouldn't be a big deal, except...") depending on the context.

You can do this... I know you want to stand up for your boy. This is a big way you can do it.

[ForeverDad]

I apologize if this question has already been asked and answered but I'm sitting in the hospital and and it's awkward for me to read all these posts I've missed in the last few weeks...

You lamented a slow response from your lawyer. What are his qualifications to handle a child custody case? Is he a divorce/custody/parenting lawyer? If he's not then perhaps his slowness to reply maybe due to him being out of water in this field of his legal practice? There's nothing wrong if he's not the right lawyer for you and you ask him or others with appropriate knowledge to recommend a better lawyer to handle your case.

[formflier]

  I know you want to stand up for your boy. This is a big way you can do it.

This!

One of the things that motivated me to work on "my stuff" is the desire to  bet the best I can for my kids.

The other thing is that I realized there will be some level of "BPDish" influence on my kids from my wife and inlaws...well, forever really.  I wanted to present a "healthy" alternative.

You've got this JNChell.

Best,

FF