To respond or not to respond. That is the question.

[Hilla]

It really is just overly tricky dealing with this person and in general people who have these habits. I have not had contact with my sister since she sent me angry insults over text message a month ago. This was b/c when I was babysitting her children, they refused to help me put away a puzzle, said it was not their mess, and when I asked again they said their mom told them to stand up to me if I made them do something they don't want to do. I was really surprised b/c the children are usually enthusiastic about helping with little things like that. I said "What? Did she really say that? I only ask for help b/c i need it but if you dont want to help I will do it myself. I dont make you do things you dont want to do, do i?" and i immediately could tell this was a situation where the kids were being used and were in the middle of something they shouldn't be. I immediately knew it was a trap. One of the kids started to get upset right away, the exchange was only about 60 seconds, but she started to yell and cry and I said there is no reason to cry and I would do it myself. They called their mom upset and she then became furious with me. Text messages saying dont i dare try to turn this around and make her the bad guy, these are children and i upset them and on and on and on, saying i have an anger problem and it continued to the next morning when she woke up early and said she was furious and coming to get them and to not speak to her or she would scream in my face. She said I am horrendous, she said I am misguided and that i say i am unhappy when i live in a beautiful place (I dont say i am unhappy) and why dont i this and that and she is sick of my BS and just so many texts. I find the texts upsetting but I wish I could just ignore them. It all felt like a huge trap. My poor dad has stepped in, he told her she was not allowed to come over until she showed different behavior, he told her she has been "mean-spirited" my whole life, but she refuses to take any responsibility and she says that I am the problem, I am the narcissist, that she has hundred of friends, her relationship is perfect, she is perfectly happy, blah blah blah - mind you i moved here b/c she wanted to leave her boyfriend b/c he is an alcoholic according to her and b/c he put his hands on her and he scares her.
The double standards are astounding.
But I know there is no logic or reason. It is all just so ugly. I should not try to do anything about it but when I receive so many insults that she is just blindly dictating into her phone and doesn't event read them or look at them ever again I just disengage. and then i feel guilty because i worry for the kids and want to give them a place to be but now she has painted me as a villain to them. She tries to say the three of them feel this way or that about it, she treats them as if they are her adult peers, asks their advice about adult matters.
I dont know i just wanted to address this here today b/c my dad put in a lot of effort, got sister to agree to see a family therapist, and then she called me, left a THREE MINUTE voicemail and a text, saying she wanted to come over with the kids and they could help if i needed to do something around the house and how I am important to her, she promise promise promises to "move on" and have a "fresh start" and she threw in a 'sorry if you ever felt differently' than something or other that really was not clear.
A three minute babbling message about how it was hard for her too b/c she's hurt.
My dad even went back to her after that to say she needs to take responsibility for the insulting text messages, he asked her over and over if she takes responsibility for them and she kept saying they were all justified.

A fresh start for her is just the cycle starting again.

I want to send the message that I disengage from anyone who insults me or takes their anger out on me. I just know that anything I say will result in something ugly from her.

I hate that she uses the kids. The younger one seems okay, and she told me she knew it was wrong when she said it, and she told me she knows I love her. She seems fine. It is the older on who is turning into her mother. It is creepy AF.

[formflier]

Perhaps a different perspective.

If there was NOT a therapist involved...I have to imagine I would advise you to lay low.

However, perhaps she is responding to /being guided by a therapist.

Please give careful thought to asking her to come over, yet maintaining boundaries.  I would make sure your Dad is around as well.

Might be best to let him take the lead on this...

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

[Hilla]

Well thank you - you seem to understand the conundrum!
I've let pops take the lead and I appreciate it, even though I feel guilty b/c my sister and I are in our 40s and he is old and I worry this is bad for his health!
I wouldn't invite her to come around, I would only want to write an email to respond to her voicemail about a 'fresh start.' The approach I am considering is to say that I can accept her perception of me, etc., but that I disengage with anyone who is insulting or who takes out anger on me, and that I take no responsibility for her anger, and I can accept her faulty perception of me, she has a right to her opinion.

I have an email drafted but... the less I say the better. Something in me wants to acknowledge her voicemail b/c I don't want to give the silent treatment - that does not sit right. 

Thanks again for your reply

[formflier]

 
Can you share the draft email here...and NOT send it until there is group wisdom...that sending it is wise? 

I should clarify...I would ask that you let pops take the lead in inviting her over and being together.

Does everyone live close enough.  That way you are physically together..but if she gets snippy, he can be "the heavy".

Please consider how many people on her wish their pwBPD would engage on any level with a counselor of any sort.

She has and is making some effort.  Is there any doubt...any?  that this is because of her attempting to work with the counselor?

Please honor that effort...

We have time to coach you on how to prepare and respond...if things get unproductive during the visit.

Best,

FF

[Methuen]

I can accept her perception of me

  What perception is that?  I caution you to choose words carefully, and say only exactly what you mean in a way where there can be absolutely no confusion.  Communication is tricky.  Is her perception of you that you unreasonably demanded of her children that they clean up the puzzles?  Is her perception of you that you have always mistreated her your whole lives?  What perception is she thinking of? Is it the same one you are thinking of?  The perception a pwBPD has of their scapegoat (which I'm assuming is you) is likely distorted, especially when she is dysregulating, so I think it would be unwise to tell her you agree with her perception.  That's basically admitting you are an awful person.  You will never hear the end of it for the rest of your life.  Once the genie (the misunderstanding) is out of the bottle, you won't be able to put it back in.  You don't want to validate the invalid.

dont i dare try to turn this around and make her the bad guy, these are children and i upset them and on and on and on, saying i have an anger problem...She said I am horrendous, she said I am misguided and that i say i am unhappy when i live in a beautiful place...she says that I am the problem, I am the narcissist

This sounds like she is mirroring to you what other adults (her partner? your dad? or other relationships?) have said to her.  It could be projection right?  This is going to sound trite, but when she is "acting out" like this, remind yourself not to take it personally...she has an illness.  I had to listen to a lot of people (T's and people on this board) tell me not to take my uBPD mom's words personally, and her words were SO personal that I couldn't imagine not taking them personally.  Thankfully, at some point, I realized all those smart people were right.  The trick for us is to figure out what we need to do to stop taking those words personally.

when I receive so many insults that she is just blindly dictating into her phone and doesn't event read them or look at them ever again I just disengage. and then i feel guilty because i worry for the kids and want to give them a place to be but now she has painted me as a villain to them.

Good to disengage and not be a doormat.  When you see an incoming text from her, could you get someone  to screen it, and determine if it is "safe" for you to see?  If not, then don't read it?  Just an idea. As to painting you as the villain.  Kids are smart.  They're probably already figuring out the situation.  They already know their mom.  But they're probably still getting used to you doing things differently.  There's going to be a few growing pains in the process as they figure out the different expectations at your place, vs at their home, and as they observe their mom's behavior.  Kids are smart.  They're going to figure it out all on their own.

She tries to say the three of them feel this way or that about it, she treats them as if they are her adult peers, asks their advice about adult matters.

Enter Karpman drama triangle, and emotional incest.  This is outside of your control.  Nothing you can do to change her.  Avoid JADEing with her.

my dad put in a lot of effort, got sister to agree to see a family therapist, and then she called me, left a THREE MINUTE voicemail and a text, saying she wanted to come over with the kids and they could help if i needed to do something around the house and how I am important to her, she promise promise promises to "move on" and have a "fresh start" and she threw in a 'sorry if you ever felt differently' than something or other that really was not clear.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting this, but this is HUGE!  It sounds like she has reached out and is "trying" after seeing her T.  It's totally rare that a BPD even agrees to see a T, and even rarer (in my experience) that a voicemail with tones of contrition follow an appt with a T.  I would try to recognize her effort, and massage whatever happened with the therapist for all it is worth.  I know the things she said to you, and her matching behavior were hurtful and abusive, but I think it is worthwhile to try to set that aside for the moment, and see where this takes you (since she is asking to come over and help).  The risk if you don't, is that she says "therapy doesn't work", and refuses to see a T again, ever.  Try to keep that first visit positive, and if she starts to push your buttons, change the topic, find an excuse to make a quick exit, but don't let yourself get "drawn in" to anything negative.

I hate that she uses the kids. The younger one seems okay, and she told me she knew it was wrong when she said it, and she told me she knows I love her. She seems fine. It is the older on who is turning into her mother.

That the younger one telling you this, is something to celebrate! I would call that a big success, and it means you have "reached" her.  She "get's" who you are.  Keep being "who you are" with the kids.  Children need and appreciate structure (it is predictable and makes them feel safe), even when they occasionally push a boundary (like they did with the puzzle).  That's normal for kids.  Keep "inviting" them to help you clean up.  As kids they know "clean up" is a fact of life, and stopping this practice of inviting them to help you clean up, could show them you are afraid of their mom.  Clean-up (and any other caregiving practice) is "normal", so I encourage you to "keep calm and carry on" with your own childminding principles and values.  I just wanted to support and encourage you.  It sounds like you really care about the kids, and are doing your best with them. This makes you a great role model, both to the kids, and perhaps even to her...

Putting a draft email (to your sister) together here and getting feedback from many experienced viewpoints and minds is a great idea, if you're up for that.

[Hilla]

Thank you for all the advice, this is so helpful!
I worry with the three minute voicemail -- everything she said feels like a trap. Saying she and the kids would come over and help around the house when that is what her anger was about? We'v not had one conversation since she was furious at me and texting she was going to 'scream in my face.' And she knows my dad is away. It sounds sketchy. It honestly scares me to think of being alone with her and the kids. She would put me on display as the one who was wrong in the situation and that the three of them are entitled to come over and do whatever they want here. She followed up with a text asking for a list of clear expectations for what the kids should do to keep the house clean. I think this is another trap. My sister is primarily narcissistic, and the sense of entitlement she has includes things like when she came and took one of the laptops here that I was fixing. She badgered me about it and just took it to a repair person even though I was in the middle of backing it up and resetting it. She then took it home and said it was hers now. I tried to say that was not true and she can't have it but she blew up at me and said it was dad's computer and not mine to decide anything with. I actually knew my dad was getting her a new laptop and I was helping him place the order, but she did not care and is still angry about it. She thought I was just being territorial when I was actually setting up that old laptop for the kids to use here. It's just weird and all over the place.

I appreciate what you are saying Methuen and I can try, although I don't actually think this is from a therapist. She said would be willing to go to family therapy but she does not want to help find one, said we have to do that - and I think she knows it will be difficult to do that b/c of the pandemic. But she said she would be willing to go. So I don't think she has been to a therapist. She talked to someone on the phone at a handful of times in the last few years, a couples therapist she used to see with her ex before they divorced. She considers this being in treatment. She actually in her anger about that laptop yelled at me and asked if I am in therapy and when I said yes she said, "Why isn't it working?"

I think her message is just another way to start the cycle of abuse. Historically she will say "DROP IT" and that means it is over - for her - and that she refuses to take responsibility for anything, she did nothing wrong, she is not sorry, all of it is my fault, my problem, and I am creating drama. So the way this situation is set up right now is that I was 'mean' to her children, and I had an angry outburst, instead of what really happened which was a 60 second exchange when I told the kids I was disappointed they were not being helpful, and I was surprised their mom told them not to help me when I ask for it. The older kid is the one who got very upset, very quickly, way more upset than is normal. She is 12 years old, she should not be wailing and crying if an adult looking after her asks with help putting away a puzzle. And I had asked her sister to help, not her.
Then their mother proceeded to become so furious that she was accusatory and insulting, yelled at me, threatened to scream in my face, called me horrendous, cursed at me, cursed in front of the children, etc. She was angry b/c she thinks I was "mean" and angry to her children, and then she was 100x more mean to me, and in her mind she is totally justified. I understand she has an illness but as the scapegoat for over two decades, I have conditioned, physical responses to this stuff, and I will cry, get a headache, become exhausted but lose sleep - it takes time to get over it. I wish so much I could be a gray rock and not take it personally but the woman FIXATES on me. She always has. She will watch me and test me every other minute. She badmouths my friends, tries to get me to defend them. She tried to set me up with two different guys, told them I was interested when I was not.

It is just the dumbest situation of all time. It is rather ugly. Most children are helpful... the fact that this is now an issue is odd. She has successfully devalued me to the children, and is actively teaching them to not respect me. It is a toxic situation. She sets traps... Now the children get to say whether or not they will do what I ask of them? Mind you, I don't ask them to do anything, and I wait on them hand and foot! And on top of that, she has said a hundred times that the young one always wants projects to organize things and put them away!
The older child is spoiled - she looked in the fridge and then looked at me and said, "Get goat cheese." She never says please or thank you, and she refuses to eat vegetables. She refuses to eat dinner at the dinner hour. Then my sister will tell me not to try and feed them vegetables, she says that is not my "department" and that it is "too complicated" with me... I've worked on ecology and nutrition programs for elementary school kids, I don't think promoting eating vegetables is complicated. If I was expected to have her children sleep over every Saturday night does that mean I don't get to cook vegetables for my Saturday family meal? Or if I do cook vegetables, am I not supposed to serve it to the kids? And if I do and they don't eat it, am I supposed to not say anything and let the food go to waste? That seems really wrong to me, and I won't do it. So it is yet another trap with her. Mind you, she doesn't even have Saturday dinner with us - she leaves and goes to be by herself, not even with her boyfriend, he was not spending time with her.

In narcissistic abuse recovery programs they teach us to say 'I accept that you have a faulty perception of me,' b/c this creates a separation and limitation, that I do not define myself by her and that while I think she has a misperception, there is nothing I can do about it b/c those are her opinions. In effect it says I don't care, she can think whatever she wants about me. If she is not going to apologize for acting out while she was angry and sending unkind text messages, then I want to be clear about why that will lead me to disengage from her, or anyone who does that.


Anyway the above is long winded but this is draft of the email I was going to send:

Dear ___
I got your voicemail and appreciate the kind words. I understand from the vm that you would like to move forward with a fresh start so I want to acknowledge that. You have every right to feel the way you feel and you have every right to your opinions. From what you expressed in your text messages, your opinion of me is not very good and I am very sorry you feel that way but I can accept it. The caveat is that I disengage from anyone who insults me and takes anger out on me. Your anger is not my responsibility and I can accept that. I understand that I have no right or ability to control how you see me, and that your perceptions are your perceptions. I do not want to argue with you. I wish you the best.

[Methuen]

I don't actually think this is from a therapist. She said would be willing to go to family therapy but she does not want to help find one, said we have to do that - and I think she knows it will be difficult to do that b/c of the pandemic. But she said she would be willing to go. So I don't think she has been to a therapist.

This changes things.  If she has not seen a therapist, it is probably best to follow your own intuition.  You have experience.  You know her.  You think this is a trap.  It very well could be.  

Why does she want to come when your dad is not home? That seems like a huge red flag.  To avoid "the trap", could you suggest meeting her for a coffee in a public place (her favourite coffee shop) when the kids are in school?  To avoid the potential trap, it is probably best not  to meet her at your house with her kids in tow (where she could attack you in front of them) while your dad is not home.  

Alternatively to meeting at a favourite coffee shop, maybe at your house when your dad can be there, and/or maybe invite a friend you can trust.  BPD's rarely act out against their scapegoat in front of others...their image is often too important to them...

The older kid is the one who got very upset, very quickly, way more upset than is normal. She is 12 years old, she should not be wailing and crying if an adult looking after her asks with help putting away a puzzle. And I had asked her sister to help, not her.

  Yes you are right, this seems like an over-reaction.  Something to observe and be aware of.  It's probably a symptom of a much bigger problem...

Then their mother proceeded to become so furious that she was accusatory and insulting, yelled at me, threatened to scream in my face, called me horrendous, cursed at me, cursed in front of the children, etc. She was angry b/c she thinks I was "mean" and angry to her children, and then she was 100x more mean to me, and in her mind she is totally justified.

Yes this is abusive behavior.  I feel for you Hilla, I really do.  Under these circumstances, it becomes paramount to take care of yourself first.  Treat yourself well and do things that are kind to you.  That could include not seeing your sister for a while (NC).  It might mean that you say no to her offer to "come help you clean up".  Self - care, right?  You know your sister best.  Your call.  I like to encourage people to listen to their gut, but it has been pointed out that not everyone is confident in "their gut".  I certainly would not have her over while your dad is not there.  

I wish so much I could be a gray rock and not take it personally but the woman FIXATES on me. She always has. She will watch me and test me every other minute. She badmouths my friends, tries to get me to defend them. She tried to set me up with two different guys, told them I was interested when I was not.

I can relate to this.  Before I found this website, my mom knew how to push my buttons, and I fell into the trap.  Every single time.  But I know things now, and so I don't fall into the trap every time anymore.  Now it's a bit of a personal game for me to recognize the trap, and step around it.

The older child is spoiled - she looked in the fridge and then looked at me and said, "Get goat cheese." She never says please or thank you, and she refuses to eat vegetables. She refuses to eat dinner at the dinner hour. Then my sister will tell me not to try and feed them vegetables, she says that is not my "department" and that it is "too complicated" with me... I've worked on ecology and nutrition programs for elementary school kids, I don't think promoting eating vegetables is complicated. If I was expected to have her children sleep over every Saturday night does that mean I don't get to cook vegetables for my Saturday family meal? Or if I do cook vegetables, am I not supposed to serve it to the kids? And if I do and they don't eat it, am I supposed to not say anything and let the food go to waste? That seems really wrong to me, and I won't do it. So it is yet another trap with her.

The older child sounds like she could have some of her own emotional issues that come with growing up in a chaotic household with her BPD mom.  The rudeness and behaviors you are witnessing in your home are a symptom that she's not coping well.  Sadly, it's not your problem to fix, and your sister will make sure of that.  All you can do, is be true to yourself and your own values when they are around (be authentic to yourself), and let the kids figure it out and decide on their own.  As to the vegetable issue, I can hear your frustration.  This is one of those traps maybe you could step around.  Sis's arguement around veggies is irrational - most BPD stuff is irrational.  You are trying to think rationally about it - which is setting you up to be frustrated.  It's pointless to try to be rational with an irrational person.  So to sidestep the trap, whenever the kids are over for dinner next time, how about making a pizza with your own toppings for them?  Pepperoni, mushrooms, green pepper?  Mediterranean toppings (lots of veggies) with goat cheese?  That has the veggies covered.  Just an example.  It doesn't have to be pizza.  But stay authentic to who you are.  Provide the veggies at dinner.  It is up to them to choose whether or not to eat them.  Don't overthink it, or you will feel like you are going crazy.

If she is not going to apologize for acting out while she was angry and sending unkind text messages, then I want to be clear about why that will lead me to disengage from her, or anyone who does that.

This is OK to state a boundary, but keep it factual, and not emotional.  A well-thought out "I statement" might be a good idea.  

As to the email reply, I would work to shorten it.  Short and simple is key.  I recoiled at the "you have every right to feel the way you feel", because it strikes me that you are still validating the invalid.  I don't think you don't want to do that.  I am wondering if what you mean is that "everyone has a right to their own opinions"?  which is different than telling her you agree with her opinion of you (which is what "you have every right to feel the way you feel" says).  Instead of " From what you expressed in your text messages, your opinion of me is not very good and I am very sorry you feel that way but I can accept it", what do you think of "From what you expressed in your text messages, your opinion of me is not very good, and this is disappointing, but that is your choice."

I like the part about the "caveat".  "The caveat is that I disengage from anyone who insults me and takes anger out on me."  

How about something like: "Every person has their own feelings, and chooses how to manage them.  I choose not to live my life with anger.  Your anger is not my responsibility and I can accept that.  I understand that I have no right or ability to control how you see me, and that your perceptions are your perceptions."

"I do not want to argue with you." I wish you the best. Instead of this, how about an "I Statement" eg. "I feel disappointed when you attack me in angry outbursts, while I am doing my best to be a good aunt to your children".  I like to spend my time with positive people.  Let's try to be kinder to each other, so we can spend time together", or something like that.  It sets out your expectation as well as a boundary.  It does say, that if she can't stop abusing you, you can't spend time with her, but it does so in a positive way that doesn't burn any bridges (thinking of the kids here).

Hang in there.  You will navigate your way through this crisis too.

[Hilla]

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond to all this! Seriously. It is amazing! This support group has been so good to me over the years.

My instinct is not to try and arrange a visit, but only to acknowledge her voicemail. The caveat is the only explanation I can give for being in zero contact over the last four weeks.

There is a real lack of understanding around consequence, so I am trying to get that message across, that if I am insulted, I just won't be around... I feel like that is fair. Then if at some point i need to i can say, 'it is your choice to insult me, but as i have stated previously, this is when i disengage.' I don't feel any need for her to know, hear, or understand my feelings - I know this is not possible and I think she will use it against me later on. She will say she feels disappointed. She likes to do that, to take what I've told her in the past about my feelings, and then she will say she feels that way later on. It is creepy.

It's too bad but I am willing to give up the relationship with the kids - because that's her family, and if I am somehow contributing to bad behavior merely by existing, then I do not want to enable chaos or abuse. If that means no contact with them, it might be best. She really seems to be fixated on me in a way that makes me scared like I don't know what she is capable of. I fear she could be capable of committing some sort of crime, and I fear she might snap one day. I feel like she hates me, and has since we were children. She seems very out of control.

She was telling my dad that she has to dictate messages and she doesn't read them after she dictates them. She said this is b/c she doesn't always have her glasses on, or because she is driving. This sounds very chaotic indeed, and I think she most likely deleted the message thread, so she probably never read back to herself the things she wrote to me. She has done this before too where she will say "Well I dont remember saying that" and she expects this to absolve her of accountability. It is trying.

My therapist recently said you know, we can't fix her, we can try to encourage family therapy, but my goal is not to get her to see the errors of her ways... My goal is to take care of myself, as you said, and if family therapy can provide me with protection and validation, that would be great. But I am not banking on it. A person can only be helped when they want it. She asked for my help in May when she was upset about the boyfriend, but she seems not to remember that anymore... It is incredibly difficult to be honest with her. When she used to be having affairs and making choices I worried were destructive, there was no way to tell her this without her insulting and accusing and saying she is perfectly justified to cheat on her own husband with the husband of someone else.

[Hilla]

  What perception is that?  I caution you to choose words carefully, and say only exactly what you mean in a way where there can be absolutely no confusion.  Communication is tricky.  Is her perception of you that you unreasonably demanded of her children that they clean up the puzzles?  Is her perception of you that you have always mistreated her your whole lives?  What perception is she thinking of?




I wanted to respond to this part b/c it is a tool the NPD docs/coaches use to say to the NPD "I can accept that you have a faulty perception of me."

It is not meant to agree with them, it is meant to say look i can accept that you feel the way you do, even if it is faulty, even if I think it is a misperception --- b/c the NPD wants to argue, they want fuel for their rage, they want supply. So if I disagree with anything she says, or JADE, she will start up more insults and illogical twisted merry-go-round conversations/fights. The idea is to say, 'yeah i hear you, you can feel what you want, there is nothing i can do about it, that is yours.'
I feel like I can trust it b/c if I can accept her misperception of me, then I won't have to have any back and forth with her. The idea is to become invisible really.

[formflier]

Dear ___
I got your voicemail and appreciate the kind words. I understand from the vm that you would like to move forward with a fresh start so I want to acknowledge that. You have every right to feel the way you feel and you have every right to your opinions. From what you expressed in your text messages, your opinion of me is not very good and I am very sorry you feel that way but I can accept it. The caveat is that I disengage from anyone who insults me and takes anger out on me. Your anger is not my responsibility and I can accept that. I understand that I have no right or ability to control how you see me, and that your perceptions are your perceptions. I do not want to argue with you. I wish you the best.

Yeah...I would hope you can have some insight here.

If your intentions are to not argue...then why make any points or bring up conflict? 

Can I challenge you to remove all contentious and "arguable" stuff from your draft?  What would that look like?


You have the option...ability to change the game here and have "it' be about what the words mean.  If she then tries to change it...it will be appropriate to express that you are perplexed.

So...try this on for size. 

She is offering to come over and help with something and have kids help with something.

So..accept and make sure there is "something" for them to help with that is fairly basic and also that if it goes south/sideways...that there is a limitation to the impact on you.

So...don't ask her and kids to clean and polish the fine china and crystal...it could be an expensive disaster.

Maybe one last clean up of the flower beds and then maybe a snack or something that they can put together or prepare (maybe they mix up the lemonade)

Why do I suggest this?  Well...somebody in all this needs to be "chill"...to have teflon on them and move forward. 

Sadly..she and her kids will likely exhibit "odd" or "disordered" or  (insert label) behavior for a while, even with therapy.

So...how do you engage with that in a productive way.

"hey kids..let's clean up the puzzle"

kids "blah blah blah we don't do puzzles, you always make us work till we drop...and you ride a broomstick..blah blah blah"

"Oh my...well...I'll let you guys sort out the puzzle, but there is hot chocolate waiting in the kitchen for when the puzzle is put away"

then..exit the drama..no explanations...

I bet they figure it out...and most likely all that will be remembered later is "she gave us hot chocolate"


Then...let's say the Mom blasts you.

"blah blah blah...you and your broomstick always make my kids (x) and you are horrible and never think of me and always turn kids into newts and dad liked me better and I know where you hide your boogers.."


you:  "My..that's a lot to consider.."

Then go on with your life..

Bottom line...let them come help..have something for them to do, if the agenda shifts..express shock and ask for understanding.

Best,

FF

[Methuen]

Then if at some point i need to i can say, 'it is your choice to insult me, but as i have stated previously, this is when i disengage.' I don't feel any need for her to know, hear, or understand my feelings - I know this is not possible and I think she will use it against me later on.

I appreciate that what you are trying to do with your email is validate your sister.  And I agree that this is exactly what you should and need to do.  But I still think she could possibly confuse what it is you are validating.  Are you validating her negative thoughts and feelings towards you (like we do when we use SET), or are you validating that you are indeed a bad person (which she will see as a fact rather than a feeling)?  They are very different, and yet expressing the difference in common written English can be tricky, and more so if the person is BPD.  If she misinterprets which one you mean, then that genie will never go back into the bottle.

I got your voicemail and appreciate the kind words. I understand from the vm that you would like to move forward with a fresh start so I want to acknowledge that. You have every right to feel the way you feel and you have every right to your opinions. From what you expressed in your text messages, your opinion of me is not very good and I am very sorry you feel that way but I can accept... it.

I think what I'm challenging here is the pronoun "it". Can you "substitute" the pronoun "it" with what "it" really is?
i.e. ..."that is how you feel", versus, "that I treat you horribly".

Is this making any sense?  It's tricky to explain in one way communication!

"I can accept that you have a faulty perception of me."

This could work, although the word faulty could be a trigger for her, whereas for you it acknowledges her feeling but not that her feeling of you is a fact. This states that you can accept her perception (faulty feeling), but does not state that you accept that you are indeed horrible (which in her mind is a fact, rather than a feeling).

https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating
We never need to validate the "invalid"

The caveat is that I disengage from anyone who insults me and takes anger out on me. Your anger is not my responsibility and I can accept that.  I'm struggling with the word "that".  Does "that" refer to her "anger towards you", OR, "her anger (a feeling) not being your responsibility?"  As a reader, I'm confused about the meaning.  It's open to a lot of interpretation.  I think it would be most helpful to both of you if she can't misinterpret your written message.

"I understand that I have no right or ability to control how you see me, and that your perceptions are your perceptions. I do not want to argue with you. I wish you the best."  This works!  It states your boundary.  It also sounds like you are saying "goodbye" in the last line ("I wish you the best").  That's what I get from it anyways.  If that's your intent, then it does the job in a non-threatening and non-confrontational way.  And it leaves the ball in her court.  However, if "goodbye" isn't your intent, you might want to tweak it.

My intent here is just to gently help you tweak the written message a bit, so there can be no confusion to how she interprets it.  Validate her feelings yes, but not the faulty fact that you are indeed a horrible person. I hope this is helpful.  If not, ignore all of the above!  

 

[Hilla]

I am a bit too scared of her right now but I will consider trying your idea once I feel like I have taken care of myself in the situation. Any contact with her makes me fearful she will set traps. I don't trust her. I thought I should acknowledge her olive branch voicemail and try to take baby steps. I have not talked to her in five weeks. Hanging out with her and the kids when my dad isn't here would not be good. I can't think of anything to ask the kids to do, it feels a bit awkward, but I guess I could create a project for them?

The only thing that matters to me right now is getting across the message that she insulted me, and that when she chooses to do that, I disengage.

None of this is very good for my wellbeing. It is really, really hard to be like teflon, I wish I knew how to do that. It has just been so many years of devaluing, demoralizing, demeaning... I don't see the point in a relationship and as I wrote earlier, I feel badly if my mere existence triggers her to be destructive and create chaos, especially when she uses the kids. I know there will be chaos in her life with or without me, but I feel badly if I contribute.
She scares me!

[Hilla]

Thanks Methuen, I totally get it! Great advice and I appreciate your attention to it.

I think the main thing is what my therapist was getting at - she was saying I really have to look out for myself, really make self-preservation my #1 objective, and it is no longer is about exercising even more coping mechanisms.

[Methuen]

I think the main thing is what my therapist was getting at - she was saying I really have to look out for myself, really make self-preservation my #1 objective

.  Yes Hilla.  I’m so glad you have a T who understands, and who you trust.  Please be kind and good and gentle  to yourself.  

[formflier]

 Any contact with her makes me fearful she will set traps.

I wouldn't "fear" that she will set traps...I would "know" and expect it.

What if she set traps and you decided not to get in them...not to show her it matters to you.

What if she argued...and you didn't?

Switching gears:  What does taking care of yourself look like?  (in order to get ready to bring them over)


Best,

FF

[Hilla]

@formflier

I am not sure I want them to come over...

I can avoid the traps but it takes a lot of effort; sometimes I don't feel up to it. In general I don't want to put myself in a situation that makes me fearful. This last go round was too much. I tried not to argue but even still, her dysregulation was so harsh and over the top. I just would rather not contribute to the chaos. It is a burden - I don't think I should have to figure out yet another way to accommodate her.

Expressing shock and asking for understanding as you suggested - these things are impossible to do with her, I am not sure how it can be done.

Everything about the idea of them coming over makes me uncomfortable.

[formflier]

  - I don't think I should have to figure out yet another way to accommodate her.

What the difference in accommodating her (which in my understanding I would NEVER suggest) and being intentional about living your life in a healthy manner and not participating in unhealthy arguments/behavior.

Tell me more about what it looked like for her wanting you to argue and you trying not to argue?

It sounds like something finally hooked you into an argument...probably a good idea to fully understand that process.

Best,

FF

[Hilla]

The hook was the night with the kids and the puzzle... even though I feel like tried to placate. I used words directly from SWOE book. The next morning she sent a barrage of dictated text insults, all those texts about how I am horrendous and cursing at me, accusing me of harassment, accusing me of being unhappy and ungrateful, telling me to look at everything she has done for me, telling me not to speak to her or she was going to scream in my face she is over my "**ing BS"... I shut down. I did not respond. When she picked up the kids she walked in, clapped her hands and yelled at me, "Playing the victim so well I see!" She came in and starting yelling at me so I said she was being disrespectful and I got up to leave the room. She cursed at me and then cursed in front of the kids. She continued to send text messages, one after the next. I have not had any contact with her until she left the voicemail earlier this week.

I did not want to accommodate her idea about the kids coming over while dad is not here, I don't really want to hang out with her at all. She wanted to come hang out, eat pastries, and mentioned in her message maybe there is something they can help with around the house - I thought it was a really strange thing to offer when that is what she had been so mad about. Her objective was to come over when dad was not here. The activity was a small mention. She is teaching the children that I have an anger problem, that I am the problem. She wants me to be on a display for her and the kids.

The most I am willing to do is watch the kids if she needs a sitter when she goes to work, but all of that would be arranged with our dad. That's kind of where I am with it... And I will be leaving for five weeks at the end of this month.

There have been many years of her cursing at me, taking out anger on me, personally attacking my character, choices I've made. She does this to our mom. She said to our mom, "I don't even like you, I just feel sorry for you." For years she would get drunk and go on the rampage... It was really terrible and I am not really over it. I get that she has an illness but when I shut down I just shut off from her... Again, I don't see why I should try and add even more coping mechanisms to my repertoire when none of them works and when she is just seeking rage opportunities. Again, she fixates on me and seems to take every opportunity to send pages-long text messages... In a lot of the messages she says "I DO NOT send emotional text messages, I WONT do it" -- but it will be in the middle of usually 10-20 emotional messages.

I am just sick of her thinking it is okay to use me like that.
She has gotten really comfortable with her default knee-jerk reaction which is to blame me, yell at me, rage at me, get drunk and rage some more, blame everybody else, and then fixate, set traps, etc., get angry again... no matter what it is.

My sister used to call me sometimes 3 or 4 times in a day - upset about her husband - complaining about him, and diagnosing him with depression or anxiety - she would call me A LOT with her complaints and I would have to try and find ways to get off the phone without her screaming at me. I would try to say something I meant to be helpful, and she would immediately start screaming and saying what do i know, i am not a wife, how dare i give advice. when i would try to get off the phone she would say 'f you' to me. and then call the next day crying and upset. this went on for years both before and after she had children. she would call me and tell me all the sordid details of the affair she was having and i would try to not be part of it and that made her even more furious. I feel like I have been dealing with this for so long, and I am weary from it.

I am trying to give background so you know for how long I have been bearing the brunt of this. The periods when I have been no contact, it made life a lot easier. Just saying.

She also makes accusations about her ex husband's sexual orientation, that she thinks he is gay. It is so tone deaf for her to talk like this, she tries to say it as if it is an insult, as if he has done something wrong. I don't think the guy is closeted at all but even if he was closeted, how is that okay to make fun of him for it, and to use that as a putdown or as a reason to dislike him? It would be one thing if he were sleeping with men and hiding it but that is not happening - she is just making up an idea in her head and running with it as far as she can. I think about what my gay friends would think if they heard her accusing someone of being gay as a way to make them seem weak and pathetic.

[formflier]

... even though I feel like tried to placate. I used words directly from SWOE book. 

Hey...lots to work through.  I'm curious if you can share what SWOE shares about "placating" a pwBPD.

I'm trying to understand the perspective.

Have you ever tried boundaries around her tirades when she is in your house.

Correct me if I'm off base here, but I get the feeling that sometimes she is ok to be around...yet the times when she flies off the handle are so horrendous, you would rather skip the good parts of her..to avoid the bad.

Is that about right?

Best,

FF

[Hilla]

Language such as:
"Perhaps if you were in my position you wouldn’t feel this way. We are two different people and we each have our own beliefs, feelings, and opinions. I am asking you to respect my feelings, even if you don’t share them."

This was in an attempt to placate the situation, not to placate her... In those moments I feel like I am supposed to find something to say that is fair or diplomatic or neutral...

Good question - I actually don't think there are times she is okay to be around - I think that I think "oh yeah this will be a good time," but then when we are actually around each other I am like, oh yeah, that's right, I forgot how uneasy and unsettling this is, I forgot how much she scares me and how totally off things feel... It is a push--pull, adult child of an alcoholic tendency, to believe in and hope for the potential and not accept the reality.

I think there is a wound from childhood and a wound from my own sensitive nature, first of all that I want us to have sisterly love and get along, and secondly I feel guilty, like I have a form of survivors' guilt, and that I am supposed to feel guilty for all the things she says I should feel guilty about. It is painful. She will bring things up from the past that were situations similar to this one, where I don't think I had the chance to say my point of view or my take on the situation, and instead I am blamed for something she created. It is impossible to feel heard or understood, I only feel misconstrued, misperceived by her -- but I am taught by counselors and most of all from our father that it is far more diabolical that that, that I give way too much credit to this person, my sister, that some people just don't have redeeming qualities. He sees her as a totally untruthful person, has known for a long time that most of what she says is false, a lie she tells to cover up truth she is afraid of. He doesn't feel sorry for her about that. But I do.

[Methuen]

Hmm.  Correct me if I'm mistaken, but it kind of sounds like the focus right now needs to be your own "recovery" from this nasty chaos which has caused you really intense distress.  It sounds like you tend to "hope" that things will be ok, but then they aren't. Is this a lifelong pattern? It sounds like your sister has gone off the rails since the puzzle night, uses you as her scapegoat, and whilst she is in this current state, it is unlikely any progress can be made in your relationship with her.  You have said you need some NC from your sister, and that sounds like a really great plan, so you can work on getting back to feeling like yourself again.  How long has it been since you really "felt like yourself"?  What would "feeling well" look, sound, and feel like for you?  Take time to really think about that.  It could be an idea to make a "wellness" chart with look, feel, sound, as the headings at the top, and then write a list under each heading. eg. " talking and sharing a hobby with a friend" might be an entry in the sound column, or "going for a walk with a friend" might be an entry in the look column.  There's no rules, but it can be a kind of grounding activity to find your way back to happiness and living in the moment rather than feeling so many yucky feelings.

I think the main thing is what my therapist was getting at - she was saying I really have to look out for myself, really make self-preservation my #1 objective

Based on the story you have shared with us, it sounds like your therapist knows you and is giving good advice.  

Better for your own wellness to surround yourself with positive people, and keep some distance from the source of negativity causing you this distress. Importantly, this will also give her time to self-soothe.  

Perhaps now isn't the most ideal time to work on relationship skills and strategies with your BPD sister?  The deeper reflection piece, and planning of strategies and executing of relationship skills can maybe happen when you are feeling a bit better, if that feels right?

It sounds like you and your therapist have decided it is time for you to care for yourself and get YOU well again.  Until you are well, it may be difficult to impossible to think quickly and effectively under duress, and manage your reactions to her.  I learned from my T to stay away from my uBPD mom on my "off days".  And after what you've been through, it may take some time before you start to feel like you have your game play back to mostly "on days".  I am glad to hear you are going away for 5 weeks soon.  Physical separation from her will make such a difference in your recovery back to "wellness".  I hope that each day has you feeling a little lighter and more like yourself, and thinking with clarity and more positive thoughts.  Until then, pamper yourself my friend.  If you start thinking about her, distract yourself with a hobby, or a friend or something positive that you enjoy. Don't let her take up too much real estate in your brain  

[formflier]

This was in an attempt to placate the situation, not to placate her... In those moments I feel like I am supposed to find something to say that is fair or diplomatic or neutral...

Did placating the situation work?

Why dance around it?  If she says something shocking...express shock and then disengage.

"Oh my...I'm shocked and will need to consider all this."  (then end the visit and go about considering it)

Listen,...on the one hand I get the vibe that disengagement isn't an option for some reason.  I guess I'm curious why you and your Dad don't let her know that you are available when she can treat you with respect (and then hold her to it).

I'm curious about the answer to above and while waiting for more understanding on that, I'll say that what I hope you can see/consider is that "flipping" the situation will likely vastly improve your outlook.

Instead of worrying that she will X...expect it.  I mean..is there any question she will use those tactics again?

Dig a bit deeper here.  Why does she use those tactics?  Because they work for her  Whatever reaction she is looking for from you...she is getting.

When she consistently stops getting that reaction...things will change.

We know what she is going to do...the question is really what are you going to do.  You have the power to change this dynamic.

Instead of her leaving you all twisted up...leave her scratching her head wondering why she can't get under your skin.

If disengagement is an option...she sounds horrible...be done with her for good, I'm getting the vibe that's really not an option.  

Best,

FF

[Hilla]

It is amazing that perfect strangers are being so generous and helpful. I thank you, and I appreciate you very much. Both of you, @formflier and @Methuen, are so understanding, it really is incredible.

I'd say yes this is a recovery period, and the wellness chart/grounding activity is a great idea! I know about a week after the blowup on 9/27 I physically felt better, but I have had a few sleepless nights since then, initially heartache over a feeling that I am abandoning the children, and a small feeling of abandoning her. Since not having contact over the past five weeks, I've settled into my own routine and it has been positive. But yes it is fair to say this is a lifelong pattern, and right now is not an ideal time to work on the skills and strategies. The only way to make that kind of progress with her would be in a family therapy setting.

I don't know how to excerpt properly here but to answer FF's q: why you and your Dad don't let her know that you are available when she can treat you with respect (and then hold her to it).

I want you to know we have held to this. She has not come over since 9/27. Dad told her he needs to see a change in behavior first before she and the kids can come back. She fights him on it. I consider that to be a conversation only between them, and I have made it clear I am not available for any hanging out with her. I can only do what feels authentic and I won't push myself to do anything other than what feels safe. Currently I am super hesitant to have any interaction with her whatsoever.

I worried aloud to my dad several times in the last five weeks that I did not think it was good to let so much time pass without the kids knowing they can be here, and I felt badly that they no longer could use the computer stations I set up for their schooling. I stated that all I can be available for is if on a Friday she needs to drop them off when she goes to work. This is because she otherwise leaves them at home alone. She refused that offer and insisted on the pancake breakfast instead. I have said Dad can do that with them and I won't be around, but he said that does not work for him either b/c he does not think she is showing any change in her behavior. She tells him she refuses to drop them off when she needs a babysitter because she wants to be there to protect them from me. ( She did this before, a couple years ago, but gave up the idea within a minute, left me with the kids and did not parade me around as the problem, though she said that was her intention. She made a small show of asking if the kid was 'okay' with me. It seemed to be confusing to the child. I'd rather not be party to that kind of treatment of a child.

Disengagement is always an option. My email to her stated plainly that I disengage with anyone who insults me or takes anger out on me. I don't miss the children as much as I did a few weeks ago, as I have come to terms with the fact that this is a rather unhealthy situation and I do not want to contribute to it.

I do expect her to use those tactics, and I feel like over the last two decades I have tried 400 ways from Sunday to change my reaction or as FF says, "change the dynamic." I actually do not think I have the power the change the dynamic right now. I only have the power to make good choices for myself, and being around her is not a good choice, particularly now that she is using the kids at this level. Very ugly. I feel bad for them. You understand? I don't want to add to it. My sister's fixation on me is psychotic, and obsessive. She is actively teaching them to use their own anger and defiance on me because she wants them to believe I deserve that. That is what is going on here.

I'll send the children cards every holiday and when they look back on childhood they'll remember that.

I can get over the fact that my pops and I moved here to be closer to her and her kids, b/c I was worried about the boyfriend putting his hands on her and the state troopers coming in the middle of the night, waking up the kids... I can get over my own setback. I have other purposes to move toward. I've suffered more from trying to change the dynamic than I have from going my separate way. C'est la vie.

If we start family therapy, at least I know it will be via a video platform and I won't have to do it in person with her! My therapist is concerned she has bipolar, which runs in the family, and if you add that to heavy drinking and narcissism, it can be perilous. My therapist also says it is highly uncommon for a person with that combination to get therapy at all - it is primarily those who have been hurt by them.

Thank you.






   

[Methuen]

I only have the power to make good choices for myself, and being around her is not a good choice, particularly now that she is using the kids at this level.

Very ugly. I feel bad for them. You understand?

Yes.  Totally get it.
It sounds like your sister is training "older" child to follow her own attitudes/behavior, but the younger one mouthed "sorry" to you after the puzzle incident, so that is a sign of hope that  kids have eyes and ears to make up their own minds about the dynamic.  My mantra is "kids are smart".  Regardless of what info and emotion she "feeds" them about you, they get to make up their own mind, especially as they get a little older.  You've done your best.  That's all you can do.  You even moved there to support her. 

My sister's fixation on me is psychotic, and obsessive. She is actively teaching them to use their own anger and defiance on me because she wants them to believe I deserve that. That is what is going on here.

Keeping your distance sounds like a good plan to keep you safe.

My therapist is concerned she has bipolar, which runs in the family, and if you add that to heavy drinking and narcissism, it can be perilous. My therapist also says it is highly uncommon for a person with that combination to get therapy at all - it is primarily those who have been hurt by them.

I'm so glad you have a good T. 

Take care

[formflier]

OK...if this has been a lifelong pattern, what changed 9/27?  Why did your Dad and you take such a difference stance now?  (not critical of this at all...just want to understand and make sure we are not missing something)

So...if she has agreed to family therapy (or has started)...that's something to sort out.  If she has agreed to this and you and your father are able to be part of it...then get the schedule for that and let's talk more.

I would stop "worrying outloud" about the kids, computers, babysitters and all that.

Big chance for triangulation and you can pretty much accept they are a package deal. 

I can't imagine it will work that you are rejecting the mom and accepting the kids.  I'm sure family T will help create boundaries and understanding here.

It sucks..but it is what it is.

There is some mention of now not being a good time to work on things and the "only" way to work on things is in family T.

I would hope you can discuss with your therapist if you can work  on the relationship with or without the other party's cooperation. 

Sure..another party cooperating can make it easier, but from where I sit...saying you can do nothing without the other party or a family T is "giving away your power".   

Best,

FF

[Hilla]

FF, to answer your q, it was the text stream on 9/27 and the cursing, yelling that caused me to take this stance.

She has not started family therapy. When I say family therapy I mean a therapist who would work with the three of us.

I have a different therapist with whom I work on my own.

What does it mean when you say to discuss with my therapist if I can "work  on the relationship with or without the other party's cooperation" ?

[Hilla]

I am not sure I follow: "Sure..another party cooperating can make it easier, but from where I sit...saying you can do nothing without the other party or a family T is "giving away your power"."

what does it mean?

[formflier]

A lot of people believe that if only one person in a r/s want to change it...that it can't be changed or improved.

I believe that one person changing can change the relationship, regardless of what the other person wants.

Best,

FF

[Hilla]

I also believe that one person changing can change the relationship regardless of what the other wants. Definitely! I have succeeded at changing my relationship to her in the past. Minimal contact and lots of support from my therapists, online group, general practitioner, meditation instructor, music music music, and love from caring people in my life.
I know her cycle...
and I know I need a life that is separated from her. I need to learn how to succeed at maintaining minimal contact.
I do not think it is possible to have a relationship that includes things like quality time or activities together. All I am willing to do is have visits with the kids. Perhaps a family group therapist could help provide structure for that at some point in the future.
My sister said she would not be part of finding someone or paying for it.
I have said I will help try find someone and I offered to pay my way.
My dad said he would help try to find someone and he offered to pay too.
My dad is less savvy with tech searches. I have a feeling I could find options online
I will take my time with all of this, I need to be careful about effort I put in.

Most of my counselors do not think it is a good idea to interact with her at all. If it is possible at some point in the future to hang with the children, great, if not, that's okay too, I can send them cool stuff in the mail.

I hope to learn how to maintain my distance from her, not get too close. There inevitably would be enmeshment and engulfment, codependency, triangulation, and then terror.