I need help, uBPDw divorce/restraining order

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Hello everyone. I have been posting reversing a breakup board.  On October 2nd my wife started a fight that night and left.  I thought she was coming back, but a few days later she moved out.  I haven’t heard from her in a month.  She has blocked me so I haven’t been able to contact her.  On October 29th I was served divorce papers and a restraining/no contact order with a final 30 minute divorce hearing scheduled for December 8th.   I really can’t afford an attorney so I replied with a written letter to the court saying that I do not want a divorce and that nothing so irreconcilable has occurred to warrant a divorce.  The court got my letter, but I’m wondering what advice anyone might have. 

I love my wife dearly and do not want a divorce. How can we possibly try to work on things and reconcile if we can’t and don’t talk?  I didn’t even know about BPD until I broke down the day after I was served and went to a therapist.  After hearing my story for several hours he handed me the DSM5 turned to the BPD page.  My wife shows all 9 diagnostic criteria.  She is also a LCSW. 

Can anyone provide any advice on this?  This is in Arkansas so I don’t know how the law is regarding the divorce and restraining/no contact order

[WorriedHusband]

Hello everyone. I have been posting reversing a breakup board.  On October 2nd my wife started a fight that night and left.  I thought she was coming back, but a few days later she moved out.  I haven’t heard from her in a month.  She has blocked me so I haven’t been able to contact her.  On October 29th I was served divorce papers and a restraining/no contact order with a final 30 minute divorce hearing scheduled for December 8th.   I really can’t afford an attorney so I replied with a written letter to the court saying that I do not want a divorce and that nothing so irreconcilable has occurred to warrant a divorce.  The court got my letter, but I’m wondering what advice anyone might have. 

I love my wife dearly and do not want a divorce. How can we possibly try to work on things and reconcile if we can’t and don’t talk?  I didn’t even know about BPD until I broke down the day after I was served and went to a therapist.  After hearing my story for several hours he handed me the DSM5 turned to the BPD page.  My wife shows all 9 diagnostic criteria.  She is also a LCSW. 

Can anyone provide any advice on this?  This is in Arkansas so I don’t know how the law is regarding the divorce and restraining/no contact order

[ForeverDad]

We all feel for you, it's tough to deal with, most of us here on the Family Law board have faced your ordeal.  I'll make a few observations, though I'm sure others will chime in with their perspectives, experiences and suggestions.

The reality is that if one spouse is determined to divorce, domestic relations court won't stand in the way, it will be more like a referee who is reluctant to meddle in the game too much.  Court is there to help to unwind a marriage or relationship, at least the legal aspects.  It won't try to be a marriage counselor, sorry.

Your desire to remain married is fine but there is a risk in that as well.  I recall when I was first separated and I was on the stand and my stbEx's lawyer, after getting me to confirm I weighed more than her — as though that was basis for her to fear me — asked me if I wanted her back.  My reply, "Not the way she is."  Why did I say it that way?  We both had protective orders against each other when we first separated.  I had real concerns she would claim I was controlling her if I said I wanted her back (I knew her lawyer would add "under my control").

So ponder whether she, her lawyer or the court would consider you wanting her to stay in the marriage as "controlling" her.  I know that's not your intent, but it could be misconstrued that way.  Their perspective is that both you and her are adults and all it takes is one wanting to exit a marriage for a divorce process to go forward.

You do need some legal advice.  Even if you don't retain (hire) a lawyer, you can seek some inexpensive or even free consultations to determine where you stand and what your least damaging options are.

You don't have children?  If that is the case, then a divorce would be less complicated.

As for the automatic restraining order... obey it, every word of it.  You don't want to experience what happens if you ignore any of the rules.  In a few weeks you'll have an opportunity to respond if any of the limits it sets are improper or unwarranted.  Again, a local lawyer can help you review all the rules, regulations and legalese that is so new to you.

I don't know how your state handles divorce cases, but that hearing may probably be just the hearing to establish a temporary order which would then be in effect for the duration of the divorce process.  I highly doubt that you would get divorced at that hearing.  Divorce is typically not an event but a process.  There are lots of legal aspects to address and only if there are no assets, no debts, no shared property, no children, no current pregnancy, etc would it be possible to get a divorce that quickly.

[WorriedHusband]

We all feel for you, it's tough to deal with, most of us here on the Family Law board have faced your ordeal.  I'll make a few observations, though I'm sure others will chime in with their perspectives, experiences and suggestions.

The reality is that if one spouse is determined to divorce, domestic relations court won't stand in the way, it will be more like a referee who is reluctant to meddle in the game too much.  Court is there to help to unwind a marriage or relationship, at least the legal aspects.  It won't try to be a marriage counselor, sorry.

Your desire to remain married is fine but there is a risk in that as well.  I recall when I was first separated and I was on the stand and my stbEx's lawyer, after getting me to confirm I weighed more than her — as though that was basis for her to fear me — asked me if I wanted her back.  My reply, "Not the way she is."  Why did I say it that way?  We both had protective orders against each other when we first separated.  I had real concerns she would claim I was controlling her if I said I wanted her back (I knew her lawyer would add "under my control").

So ponder whether she, her lawyer or the court would consider you wanting her to stay in the marriage as "controlling" her.  I know that's not your intent, but it could be misconstrued that way.  Their perspective is that both you and her are adults and all it takes is one wanting to exit a marriage for a divorce process to go forward.

You do need some legal advice.  Even if you don't retain (hire) a lawyer, you can seek some inexpensive or even free consultations to determine where you stand and what your least damaging options are.

You don't have children?  If that is the case, then a divorce would be less complicated.

As for the automatic restraining order... obey it, every word of it.  You don't want to experience what happens if you ignore any of the rules.  In a few weeks you'll have an opportunity to respond if any of the limits it sets are improper or unwarranted.  Again, a local lawyer can help you review all the rules, regulations and legalese that is so new to you.

I don't know how your state handles divorce cases, but that hearing may probably be just the hearing to establish a temporary order which would then be in effect for the duration of the divorce process.  I highly doubt that you would get divorced at that hearing.  Divorce is typically not an event but a process.  There are lots of legal aspects to address and only if there are no assets, no debts, no shared property, no children, no current pregnancy, etc would it be possible to get a divorce that quickly.

No it is the final hearing. In the papers I was served it calls it a 30 (thirty) minute final divorce hearing.  I was only given about 5 weeks from the time I was served.  This is all just so overwhelming. I thought you actually have to have cause for divorce

[ForeverDad]

No it is the final hearing. In the papers I was served it calls it a 30 (thirty) minute final divorce hearing.  I was only given about 5 weeks from the time I was served.  This is all just so overwhelming. I thought you actually have to have cause for divorce.

Most states are "no fault" states, a spouse does not need to have a 'reason' to end the marriage.  That's why I wrote that most divorce courts are basically referees during the process, not arbiters of whether a divorce can occur or not.

If your very first court hearing is the final hearing, then likely there is something very wrong with your case.  I've never heard of a case that only took a month or two from start to finish without both spouses signing agreement.  Did she file the wrong paperwork?  I will repeat myself, you need an expert on legal matters (basic consultations with a lawyer and preferably multiple lawyers so you can be more confident of the legal advice you hear) to review your specific case and provide legal advice and recommendations.  Consultations are inexpensive and will give you a much better perspective on what happens in your local court.  We are excellent peer support, having "been there done that", but we can't give legal advice.

Edit:  If this does turn out to be a final divorce decree hearing, you need to defend yourself legally if she is expecting to continue having a restraining order against you afterward.  Hmm... something just occurred to me... is this a divorce final hearing or a restraining order final hearing?

[mart555]

The following will seem blunt but we've been through it:  You're likely still in the "FOG":  Fear, obligation, guilt.    That "fog" will dissipate over time and then you'll truly realize how abusive the relationship was.   It will likely take a few months however.

Heck, many of us initiated the divorce and still had that fog laying around..  it took a lot for us to get out.  It's unsurprising that it's a shock for you. 

[kells76]

Hi WH, good to see you over here.

One thought to keep in mind:

I wonder if there is an unspoken/tacit assumption following the desire "I don't want to get divorced" (which, on its own, is understandable). I wonder if the tacit followup clause is:

"I don't want to get divorced... because if we do, we can NEVER get back together"

If that is a tacit assumption or belief that's operating, that may make things more difficult. Or, at least, that belief is going to inform the choices you make, whether aware of it or not.

I wonder what it would be like for you to bring that assumption out in the open and see if it's true.

Is it true that if "the divorce happens" (not because you want it), that you can NEVER reconcile with your W?

Now, I wouldn't necessarily use that idea to shift into full "pursue her every day, no matter what, to try to reconcile after a divorce". Like onceremoved and formflier have mentioned on the "conflicted" board (I think?), now is not the time to be sending flowers, cards, relentless messages of love. As counterintuitive as it seems, when a pwBPD is sending "push away" messages, the most helpful thing the partner can do is... believe them, and not try to "convince them otherwise".

She may, over time, put the brakes on her "push away" messaging, if she doesn't feel pressured/overwhelmed. The key will be that you, WH, are working from a stable, consistent place... a place of choosing/deciding, instead of reacting to her messaging.

So... putting that all together, in the legal board context...

Recall FD's experience:

Your desire to remain married is fine but there is a risk in that as well.  I recall when I was first separated and I was on the stand and my stbEx's lawyer, after getting me to confirm I weighed more than her — as though that was basis for her to fear me — asked me if I wanted her back.  My reply, "Not the way she is."  Why did I say it that way?  We both had protective orders against each other when we first separated.  I had real concerns she would claim I was controlling her if I said I wanted her back (I knew her lawyer would add "under my control").

Maybe there's a way to be real about the fact that you don't want to divorce her, and are open to working on things, without it being an overwhelming/"controlling-sounding" message.

pwBPD don't communicate in a mature way. Our job as the non-BPD is to see past all the smoke and distractions of immature, overreactive messaging, and see the feelings at the core. I wonder if your W was dealing with feeling engulfed/overwhelmed (her feelings, her responsibility), and instead of talking about it maturely with you, is "messaging" those feelings to you in an overreactive, big, immature way (RO, divorce, etc). But you see the feelings at the core of those huge moves, right?

OK, so, then, following the RO will have two benefits. One, you are staying squeaky clean legally. Now's not the time for you to cross those legal lines -- if you do want to get back together with your W, you need to stay on the straight and narrow. Two, though... in a way, it shows you're listening to her, and hearing her feelings of being overwhelmed/engulfed.

...

Sorry, lots of rabbit trails. I'll try to put my thoughts together again.

1. Respond to her core feelings (as she has expressed them in a large, overreactive, unhelpful way) from a stable place of nonreactivity. I.e., she's emoting at a 9-10, right? You thoughtfully respond at a chill, calm, 1-2. Her: running away, RO, divorce talk, etc. You: NO chasing, no barrage of texts, no pleading... save your big emotions for your therapist. She needs you to be stable, calm, nonreactive, still recognizing how she feels through your actions. So -- follow the RO.

2. Wait for her to approach you (though again, follow the RO!). See if the RO limits any written communication or if it's just physical proximity. If it's physical only and written is still OK, wait for her to make a move. If you try to convince her of your love, then because of how her brain works, she may experience that as "WH doesn't understand how I feel... I'm feeling overwhelmed and he is pulling me in and engulfing me with his love... I need to get away". So, again, if stuff like texting/social media is OK per the RO (talk to a lawyer FIRST!), don't try to "win her back" through those. Wait for her to reach out. When you respond to her, keep it at a chill 1-2 instead of a 8-9. An 8-9 is like "I missed you SOO much! Please, please come back! I need you and I'm desperate to work this out with you! I love you SOO much!"

3. Remember that there is nothing inherent in getting a divorce that forever prevents you from getting back together. Maybe that knowledge can help you keep at a chill 2-3 as you go through this process, so instead of during the legal events trying to "make" or "convince" her not to do it, you can express some calm sadness and regret ("I wish this weren't happening, I care enough about my W to not fight about this, although I see it differently I hear her wishes"). I think the combination of a good lawyer and a good therapist could help you "formulate" how to present yourself as you go through this process, in a way that could potentially minimize your W's desire to "burn the bridges" at the end. The more chill, calm, and stable you can be in any interactions with your W, the greater the chances (though again, no guarantees) that she won't react to your "pull" messages with "I'm running from you" messages. If she doesn't feel pressured to get back together in the divorce process, that might help her get back to a baseline where she can see stuff more clearly, and chances would be higher you guys could do some rebuilding work.

Overall, I'd encourage you, at this point, not to see legal divorce proceedings as an "I CANNOT let this go through, or we are done FOREVER" kind of thing. Does that make sense?

Hang in there... we're here for you;

kells76

[MeandThee29]

I don't live there, but I know that Arkansas allows fault for a divorce filing. Apparently she's decided that she was abused (the restraining order indicates that) and is filing to find you at fault. In some states you can do that and go right to a divorce without a certain period of separation. Saying that you don't want a divorce isn't going to count for anything if she has "proof" of abuse. That said, her legal team must actually prove abuse in order for that to fly. If there haven't been any police and/or hospital reports, that is going to be really, really hard to prove.

You say that you don't have any money, but you need an attorney for that hearing. Use a credit card, borrow from somebody, or whatever you have to do. You don't want to be accused of abuse that didn't happen. Some attorneys will do a free or low-cost 30-minute call.

Here's a summary:

https://cordellcordell.com/resources/arkansas/

[kells76]

We consulted with 2 L's before choosing one. One consult was ~45 min and maybe $100 if I recall correctly. The other one (who we ended up choosing) actually chatted on the phone with me for ~30 min for free before the initial consult. We did go with that guy at about $300 an hour and he was worth every penny.

I think if you can weave together following all the legal instructions 110% with your desire to not hurt your W, that could be a good thing.

I.e., as MeandThee29 mentions, you DON'T want to show up to a hearing with no recourse to allegations of abuse. So, follow the RO to the letter, and have a L help you put together a way to defend yourself that isn't just dumping on her. I think with skill, it's possible to do.

It's not selfish to protect yourself. It's a way of getting through this so that maybe a door is open on the other side for working on or re-doing the relationship. It isn't loving to her to allow her to steamroll you with legal accusations in a hearing... i.e., "laying down and taking it from her" won't, I suspect, be a way to "prove you love her" and "open her eyes".

Threading the needle on this between protecting yourself legally (follow the RO, get a L, etc) and being as caring as you can to your W is not impossible. A good L will help you out -- ours understood that my husband wanted to put his kids' well-being first no matter what, so that really changed the tactics and strategies we had in play. Our L could've been a tough go-getter but was willing to adjust his tone/plan to both legally achieve what we needed AND respect where DH was coming from.

[WorriedHusband]

Thank you for the replies and advice everyone. I really appreciate it. At this point I am pretty convinced she is with another man.  So that is heartbreaking to say the least.  I know of a lawyer I can email and see what he says.  

I actually found her wedding ring last night.  The night she left she threw it at me.  After all this time I still wear mine.  I was getting ready for work the other morning and had taken it off briefly then I couldn’t find it. It was like I was having an anxiety attack. I was frantic trying to find it. I quickly found it though. I still wear it.  I guess if I take it off that means we are truly over in my eyes.  

Im now wondering if I should take down my photos of us together on social media.  My profile pics are always of us together.  It’s been that way for so long I would awful if it wasn’t a pic of us together there.   I know before she blocked me everywhere she messaged me to take them down.  

I’ll be honest, I still haven’t been angry with her because I realize this is the BPD and not my wife, but it just feels so heartless the way she is doing me.  How can someone fall out of love so fast?

[ForeverDad]

I don't think you can split your spouse in two, as though BPD can be separated from your wife.  BPD is a description of how she behaves and responds to her perceptions of life.  Maybe it can be, but not today and not anytime soon.  It would take intensive therapy and lots of time.

One of our most helpful handbooks when facing separation or divorce is Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder written by William Eddy.

That she may already be with another man is not surprising.  Many often jump quickly from one relationship to the next, the replacement.  She's an adult, she has a right to make life choices, whether wise or not.

[Notwendy]

I’ll be honest, I still haven’t been angry with her because I realize this is the BPD and not my wife, but it just feels so heartless the way she is doing me.  How can someone fall out of love so fast?



I am sorry you are going through this. I am not experienced with divorce but wanted to comment on these feelings.

As FD said, your wife has BPD, and this affects her thinking and her behavior. I don't think it's possible to separate one from the other. This is who she is. I understand not wanting to feel angry at someone due to their having a mental illness. Yes, she didn't choose to have BPD and one can be empathetic to that, however, she is accountable for her behavior and her choices. As FD stated- she's a legal adult and can make her own choices, regardles if they are good ones or not.

I think one fear of someone with BPD being with someone else is that- somehow the other person is getting the good side of them, and you have been working so hard to get that "good side" back. That somehow the person is able to have a happy relationship with them and you didn't.

Yes, it feels good to be the one "painted white" and idealized. I am not saying that any of this was insincere of your wife or not real when it was you. It was. But the dynamics of a relationship with BPD also include a devaluating stage as well. Again, I would not separate the two, they are both aspects of her personality. If she is with someone else, right now, the two of them are in the idealization stage. It may look like he is better than you- to her. But sadly for her, the nature of BPD is that if she's looking at him for the solution to her own difficult feelings, this is likely to be a temporary elixir.

Reading about the Karpman triangle can help you gain some perspective. Personally, I think pwBPD percieve things from the victim perspective ( just my own observation). Because of their coping by projection and denial, they see their own uncomfortable feelings as coming from someone or something else. If this other man comes in in rescuer mode, it sets a triangle up between the three of you.

As much as you tried, you didn't fail in making your wife happy. It's not possible to control someone else's feelings.

As to the wedding ring, or your pictures on social media, it might help to not be reactive to your wife. I think that is something that can become a "normal" in a disfunctional relationship- reacting to the other person rather than focusing on your own feelings. Taking off the ring, scrubbing her pictures off social media- these don't erase the fact that the two of you have/had a marriage. In fact, scrubbing her pictures off seems reactive. I wouldn't put new ones up- that gives an illusion, but they are pictures in time. You were married before this and the pictures taken before this time reflect that.

If you are not comfortable taking your ring off, then don't. That is your decision to make.

[MeandThee29]

Glad to hear that you are going to get legal representation. I know, it's expensive. I spent 1/4 of my income one year on my attorney and then had borrow for a gap where I had to put down and refresh another retainer.

I had to realize that it was now a business and legal transaction. I chose a very calm, steady attorney who was very reassuring to me while keeping the pressure on the legal side. I also picked him because he had gone against my ex's attorney many times. His comment when I interviewed him was, "Oh good, I love a good fight. And then he and I go out for a beer after court." It cost way more than it should have despite no custody issues, no real estate, and no business interests. Yes, my ex initiated it, and then he tried to stick it to me on the way out. Closeout has been difficult as well and is ongoing. The refrain the attorneys came up with was, "He has no empathy and no regard for the law." At times it was the two legal teams and I against him. Earlier this week my attorney (now the original one's associate) commented that it was good that my ex picked such a powerhouse because his attorney strongly stood up to my ex on multiple fronts that were ultimately a positive for me.

I wore my ring and kept some of the pictures up until the divorce was final. The house was sold during separation before the divorce process started, so most of the pictures in the house were packed up then. I scrubbed social media when the divorce started. I've never, ever posted anything about the divorce there although quite a few of my friends figured it out and asked me offline when we moved and when all mentions of him disappeared.

Personally, I cannot ever imagine seeing him again face-to-face. The ideal for me was a peaceful divorce and occasional contact. Nope. Not after that high conflict, expensive divorce. I'm done.

[WorriedHusband]

I don’t think I will be able to afford legal representation.  I am just going to email a lawyer that I know to pick his brain a little and seek his advice. 

I still don’t want a divorce.  Everyone is just telling me to let it go, but I can’t.  She has been my world for so long that I can’t just let her go. I can’t control my emotions and I just feel such an overwhelming sense of grief like nothing I have ever felt.  Divorce just seems so final.  I know her well and I think she has someone in her ear.  I truly believe she won’t talk to me and got the restraining order because she knows if she sees me and talks to me she will come back.

[ForeverDad]

With that perspective, you're risking disaster.

Am I too blunt?  Maybe that's what you need... a reality-scare.

[CoherentMoose]

I agree with ForeverDad.  Please seriously reconsider and find some legal help. It sounds like you're mired deep in the denial stage of grief.  CoMo

[MeandThee29]

They are going to present "evidence" that you have abused her to make the judge feel sorry for her. I looked it up, and in Arkansas they call it "cruel and barbarous treatment." You're going to have your say without an attorney presenting the right kind of evidence to counter their claims. That is going to make the judge and her attorney smile because the case was just decided. You get divorced "for cause" as an abuser.

The judge is going to divide everything you have, probably favoring her. There will be a note in the court records that you were found to be an abuser in the divorce. I don't know if that's public information. And she won't care because the way she handled this shows that she doesn't respect you.

I know that it's rough. I didn't want my divorce either, but don't do this. You can handle this with self-respect.

[WorriedHusband]

They are going to present "evidence" that you have abused her to make the judge feel sorry for her. I looked it up, and in Arkansas they call it "cruel and barbarous treatment." You're going to have your say without an attorney presenting the right kind of evidence to counter their claims. That is going to make the judge and her attorney smile because the case was just decided. You get divorced "for cause" as an abuser.

The judge is going to divide everything you have, probably favoring her. There will be a note in the court records that you were found to be an abuser in the divorce. I don't know if that's public information. And she won't care because the way she handled this shows that she doesn't respect you.

I know that it's rough. I didn't want my divorce either, but don't do this. You can handle this with self-respect.

There is no evidence of such a thing.  If I could afford an attorney I would get one. I truly don’t have the money for a lawyer. I’m going to contact a lawyer I know this week and see what he says. Maybe he will work something out with me

[ForeverDad]

Of course there is no evidence.  However, if she is determined to divorce quickly, if for whatever reason she is still angry with you, if she has convinced others you have been behaving as an abuser... then the court could very well "err on the side of caution" and continue "protecting" her from you.

This is based on a national law titled "Violence Against Women Act of 1974".  Notice that it is NOT entitled "Violence Against Domestic Partners and Spouses Act".  There is legal inclination that men are abusers and women are victims, just making such allegations might be enough for the court to defend her, just in case.

We're not saying she will make serious claims against you, we're not saying the court will side with her.  What we are saying is that there's real risk that could happen and innocent you wouldn't be prepared legally to handle that.

Do get legal advice from your lawyer acquaintance ASAP.  Does that lawyer practice with family law or domestic abuse cases?  If not, then he ought to refer you to lawyers or offices who can.  Your local county ought to have a Legal Aid office.  An internet search could identify some offices that provide free or inexpensive legal advice.  Here's one of many in a simple search online:
https://www.arlegalservices.org/center

[MeandThee29]

We're not saying she will make serious claims against you, we're not saying the court will side with her.  What we are saying is that there's real risk that could happen and innocent you wouldn't be prepared legally to handle that.

When my ex started the divorce process, I was making close to minimum wage after several decades as a SAHM. I used a tax refund to put down the first retainer. I had a relative who offered to loan me money, but I didn't need that until closeout. It was really rough financially, but I'm convinced that my legal team saved me what I paid them many times over and got the divorce done when my ex was trying to drag it out as long as possible. I'm still in closeout, but at this point it's mostly the paralegal. So I just pay the monthly balance when there is one.

As ForeverDad said, Family Court is unpredictable. You can't necessarily expect justice, and saying "there was no abuse" isn't going to count for much at all. Abusers say "there was no abuse" all the time, and the judge will be inclined to assume the worst, especially if her attorney presents a compelling case.

[mart555]

There won't be any evidence but make sure to cover your ass: record and document.  Have your phone record audio in your back pocket or in the room when you talk to her.  Don't let her know.   It's not pretty when they dysregulate so protect yourself as much as you can. Just in case.   If you don't have money for a lawyer you'll have even less for a criminal lawyer to protect you if it comes to that. 

[WorriedHusband]

This has all just spun out of control so fast and for no good reason.  I never in my wildest dreams she would be doing this.  It makes no sense.  I mean I understand now that she has uBPD, which I never knew about before, but we were happy together. It just all went to PLEASE READ in a 6 week period.

I’ll speak to the lawyer first of the week

[momtara]

I'm sorry that what you are hearing is so negative. Of course you love her. Of course there are parts of her that are lovable. This is a hurtful, cruel illness. It's been said many times: Just because you understand it, doesn't mean you have to be abused. Do protect yourself, and give yourself credit for loving her. You can do both.