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Author Topic: She wants to change the mediators  (Read 2862 times)
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« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2020, 04:14:01 AM »

Foreverdad,

I'm in agreement with you on the mortgage from, I don't like it and think it leaves me wide open to shenanigans.
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« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2020, 04:35:00 AM »

I'm curious why you expect to find one, since it doesn't appear she is a reasonable or rational person.

FF, I don't expect to find one. I know that there is 'A reason' and maybe if that reason were given (even if it's irrational, unreasonable or even tactical, malicious) that reason could be addressed.

My thoughts are that we're in a different phase now. Or maybe just I am. We're certainly in a different arena where certain behaviour is expected. We're not in a marriage counselling arena now where feelings are centre stage, I'm not holding out for the marriage to miraculously repair itself and I'm taking her word for what she wants... She wants a divorce and she wants to be with someone else.

In marriage counselling it is reasonable if not expected for someone to act irrationally and emotionally. When dealing with a divorce and the decisions associated with that process it is reasonable to expect someone to act rationally (despite the process being very emotionally triggering).

My questioning her decision shines a light on her irrational decision making, and I think that's okay in this new phase.
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« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2020, 05:54:37 AM »

My questioning her decision shines a light on her irrational decision making, and I think that's okay in this new phase.

but thats not really a practical or successful strategy for divorcing, and im not sure its a new phase at all.

New-Life, i think members are trying to tell you that you are dug into the old dynamics of the broken relationship as you ever were, and they arent serving you, or the process.

not agreeing at worst, or negotiating on the mediator, is pretty standard in the best of scenarios. does pushing her and trying to catch her on her reasoning (which is obvious) really help you more than trying to navigate the process before you?

wouldnt it serve you and the process better to hear what she has in mind going forward?
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« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2020, 07:18:36 AM »

OR,

The mediator was already set... we're mid race.

Excerpt
trying to catch her on her reasoning (which is obvious)

Do you mean that her reasons are obvious (in which case please enlighten me), or do you mean my attempts to catch her on her reasoning are obvious? In which case yes, I am unashamedly trying to shine a light on her lack of rational reasoning for the switch.

My response:

Excerpt
I am discouraged by your decision not to provide evidential details to support your decision. It concerns me that without ascertaining the root cause of XXXXX perceived failings we might change mediators only to establish the same dynamic exists.

Please could you:
•   Tell me what your expectations are from a new mediator and what would be different?
•   Provide a cost and availability breakdown for your suggested mediators. Please exclude XXXX Bullet: comment directed to __ (click to insert in post) XXXX as I am currently speaking to them.

Once I have this information I will consider the two options you have left me with and/or propose other mediator options of my own.
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« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2020, 08:22:35 AM »

I'm sitting pretty in a house I'd like to keep (the matrimonial house), accruing savings each month, embedding my position as 50/50 parent each month.

Thanks for putting this out there. This was my point earlier. This is the alternate agenda (part of it) that is driving your actions.

You often accused her of being immoral and just wanting her current life with you gone... but in effect, the opposite has happened... you got the current life and she is gone.

So staying with the ineffective mediation is your preference. It's not about her being unreasonable or irrational.

New-life, this is the same passive-aggressive stuff that was going on in the house when she was living there (old-life). This is why, as you said earlier,  "She believes I am demonic and have been controlling what she thinks for decades".

We are not giving her a "bye". She was in an affair and that was wrong. But we're not giving you a bye either - two wrongs don't make a right... especially when there are 3 little girls in the fighting cage with you two. We all see that you're selling a false narrative.

I am unashamedly trying to shine a light on her lack of rational reasoning for the switch.

This is called "high conflict".

Excerpt
I am discouraged by your decision not to provide evidential details to support your decision... //... Once I have this information I will consider the two options you have left me with and/or propose other mediator options of my own.  

This is "high conflict", too. You are really down to her - like she is a child.

Flip it around. Could you provide "evidential details" (whatever that is) as to how the current mediating path which has produced nothing in a year, will be productive going forward. Could you do it without "shinning light" on her inferior intelligence.

This is just conflict in a process that is about "collaboration". Polite. Passive. Cutting.

This is very much like a child throwing lit matches at a gas can. Most won't result in anything other than a fizzle as the child gets more brazen and closer to the can and then... pow.

No one wins in high conflict divorce.
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« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2020, 08:39:51 AM »


No one wins in high conflict divorce.


Said another way...usually most of the people involved lose.

Can I ask you to "reflect back" or "explain back" why Skip believes "shining light" on lack of rational reasoning is high conflict? 

Best,

FF

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« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2020, 09:57:51 AM »

Skip,

Excerpt
You often accused her of being immoral and just wanting her current life with you gone... but in effect, the opposite has happened... you got the current life and she is gone.

I didn't make choices that would alter the life I had. I stood still, carried on going to work, improved my parenting, learnt to bite my tongue. Put it another way, would 'this' life exist without me in it... lets say I died with no life insurance, would it exist? No, not at all. Does the house fall apart?... no... Do the kids eat differently surviving only on ready meals?... nope... Is the house a mess? Nope, spotless... are we penniless... nope.

Excerpt
So staying with the ineffective mediation is your preference. It's not about her being unreasonable or irrational...

...Flip it around. Could you provide "evidential details" (whatever that is) as to how the current mediating path which has produced nothing in a year, will be productive going forward. Could you do it without "shinning light" on her inferior intelligence.

The choice to use a mediator was W's choice, I was passive (not aggressive) about pursuit of a divorce. The effectiveness of mediation has(d) nothing to do with the mediator and I could evidence that. Staying with the original mediator is my preference, yes, because it's cheap and I don't want my W to cannibalise both our economic futures plus we have invested time and money and he knows the lay of the land. Progress was made in each session and homework set... it had great potential. Yes it was evident that my W needed additional support (not for the lack of intelligence but a lack of confidence and arguably an unwillingness to be responsible for decisions that determine her own destiny) but to say mediation didn't work is like "My boomerang won't come back"... "well first you gotta throw it!". There's no point in saying that the process didn't work when you never followed the process in the first place, nor put sufficient effort into the thing you actually said you wanted in the first place. I could understand if it were me asking for a divorce and her being apathetic about the effort required to achieve it.

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« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2020, 10:30:34 AM »

It doesn't appear you answer the question from Skip that you quoted.  It appears you claim you could answer it...but then?

What evidence can you provide that the current mediating path will be (or is likely to) be productive in the future?

Best,

FF
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« Reply #38 on: November 06, 2020, 10:49:08 AM »

Said another way...usually most of the people involved lose.
Can I ask you to "reflect back" or "explain back" why Skip believes "shining light" on lack of rational reasoning is high conflict? 

I don't know why Skip thinks this is high conflict but I would say that it's high conflict because it is in direct contravention of what she feels she needs to get what she wants... and yes, this is an extension of the marital conflict and this is how we've come to be at this point. I have no doubts about that. I have spent many years now on the whole appeasing her wants and needs (with the exception of a few key lines in the sand like moving out. The boards spent a period of time telling me that I should no longer be a doormat, that I should no longer allow her to determine my destiny and I should put some boundaries... what's it to be?
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« Reply #39 on: November 06, 2020, 11:27:31 AM »

Ok, she has rejected the current mediator.  She will probably reject email only mediation.  If she does not budge on either of those items, what is your next step?  I have to assume her next step is legal action.
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« Reply #40 on: November 06, 2020, 11:31:33 AM »

  I should no longer be a doormat, that I should no longer allow her to determine my destiny and I should put some boundaries... what's it to be?

Well..it depends. 

If you are attempting to continue a relationship with her...then I agree with all of this and you have a long term vision.

When you are talking about divorce...there is no long term horizon.  In fact, the shorter the horizon (quicker to final divorce) is almost always better, especially for the man (or the "non").

We are not suggesting you let her walk all over you.  We are suggesting (or at least I am) that you find a way that works for both of you.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #41 on: November 06, 2020, 12:24:36 PM »

I would like to find the cheapest version (which preserves mine and the kids future) which she will stick to. I see no point in "validating" her that we should move to her solution if there's a low  chance of that being any more effective than the current solution. I wonder if this is a point that's been lost in all my mumble... as I asked her... how is your solution going to be any more effective than the solution we already have?

Excerpt
What evidence can you provide that the current mediating path will be (or is likely to) be productive in the future?

I cannot provide evidence to guarantee this. If that was the benchmark for success the only option I could ever put to her would be going to court since that definitely does guarantee that a decision will be made. What seems rational though is that if the current mediator explained things carefully and considerately and followed a methodical path through mediation, and the new person is also likely to deal with the matter in a comparative way, YET no changes are made by my W then that 'should' also fail to be productive.
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You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #42 on: November 06, 2020, 01:56:10 PM »

What you may have to do is step aside from your perceived high moral ground and just find a way or take a path that gets the divorce done.  Courts, at least in the USA, generally don't care who was right or wrong, fair or unfair.  Court is, by and large, similar to a mediator, it wants to help get the marriage unwound.  One of the differences is that court can wield a big stick.  It doesn't want to, mostly it uses it's leverage to influence, creating pressure with hearings and event dates to get it done.  Only rarely does it metaphorically bop parents on their heads.

Can you do that?  Can you just focus on what needs to get done and set aside your own perceptions of justice and injustice?
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« Reply #43 on: November 06, 2020, 03:20:47 PM »

I would like to find the cheapest version (which preserves mine and the kids future) which she will stick to. I see no point in "validating" her that we should move to her solution if there's a low  chance of that being any more effective than the current solution. I wonder if this is a point that's been lost in all my mumble... as I asked her... how is your solution going to be any more effective than the solution we already have?

It sounds like to me that your goal of "cheapest approach" is likely to be the most expensive approach.  Your only proposals are ones that she is rejecting.  If she can't get your agreement on her solution, and you can't get her agreement on your solution, then the only option is to litigate everything in courts.

You accuse her of acting irrationally, but to be honest, right now your actions don't appear very rational either.  First step in acting rationally, imo, is to believe her when she says she won't continue to use the existing mediator, and she is unwilling to do things via email.  You don't have to agree with her decisions, to believe that they are indeed the positions that she is taking.
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« Reply #44 on: November 09, 2020, 06:41:18 AM »

Hey Fian,

As per my response to here above I have accepted her stance but asked what she would expect from her new path. Are you suggesting that I should just accept her new path and allow her to test whether or not this new path yields any results?

Whatever is chosen I am committed to working with it at least to give it the best chance of working... as I believe I have done on the previous paths.

New-Life
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« Reply #45 on: November 09, 2020, 07:15:54 AM »

 You don't have to agree with her decisions, to believe that they are indeed the positions that she is taking.

I would add to this that in her notional new path, she is unlikely to be able to explain how she believes it will be better.

From what I know of BPDish stuff, it seems much easier for them to articulate "no" than "yes".

And then once they have said yes and likely done an inadequate job of explaining  yes...then implementing a yes path is an entirely new and more challenging thing.

So...it is very likely that if you desire an inexpensive path, you will bear the brunt of "getting stuff done", which seems to be the opposite of the more passive approach you seem to have taken.

1.  If your goal is to not be divorced or for it to take a long time...the passive approach seems rational.

2.  If your goal is to be divorced and for it to happen quickly...passive approach seems irrational.

3.  If your goal is to have her explain her position rationally...I don't think that's going to happen.

4.  If your goal is for her to be consistent over time with what she may agree to..I don't think that's going to happen.

For the sake of argument, I would ask that you accept the above as axioms.  

How are 2 and 4 related and what is a rational solution for 2 and 4?
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« Reply #46 on: November 09, 2020, 09:22:35 AM »

Hey Fian,

As per my response to here above I have accepted her stance but asked what she would expect from her new path. Are you suggesting that I should just accept her new path and allow her to test whether or not this new path yields any results?

Whatever is chosen I am committed to working with it at least to give it the best chance of working... as I believe I have done on the previous paths.

New-Life

I am confused.  I thought you were pushing her in the direction of email.  Her proposed path is more mediation just a more expensive one which you have stated is unlikely to produce a better result than current moderation.  So have you agreed to a new, more expensive moderator?
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« Reply #47 on: November 09, 2020, 09:41:44 AM »

My best/worst case scenarios for cost were £5k-£120k. I suspect we're currently on £5k already but I don't know how much W has spent. 

W has likely spent 2x as much because she's bugging lawyer with all sorts of questions.  And I'm not sure how it works where you are but here, if you lose in court, you can be stuck paying your opponent's fees...  and with a BPD, they can be hefty.  And if you win? you're unlikely to recover much unless the other party has money because the judge will have mercy otherwise.  It's a nightmare.  
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« Reply #48 on: November 09, 2020, 05:03:46 PM »

I just caught up on this thread, and wow.  You have a deadline in THREE WEEKS for a major financial decision, and your STBX has zero incentive to cooperate with you, and every incentive not to.

You're spending your time trying to argue logic with someone who is incapable of acting logically. Why are you doing that to yourself?

What is your primary goal?

1) Be divorced?
2) Slow crawl the divorce so that you can keep the house and/or not be divorced?
3) Have ex admit she's wrong?
4) ?

Be honest.
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« Reply #49 on: November 10, 2020, 12:50:43 PM »

Hey Worriedstepmom,

Like much of this stuff I have been told that I can go to court, spend loads of money and get a judge to sign a joint application for a new mortgage. In the same vein I could spend a silly amount of money on lawyers and have this divorce wrapped up in a couple of months by forcing the agenda. Alas spending £120k on lawyers all round isn't that appealing since it cannibalises my own future.

The joys of email allow me to tackle multiple points at the same time. I know that I can get a mortgage with the bank (same bank) in my name max 2 weeks since it's an internal trade. I know that I can also get a joint mortgage done in 2 weeks. I have enough correspondence to demonstrate if this ever went to court that I was taking mitigating action against an impending liability and my wife had proven to be unreasonable in her stance. As much as I don't like getting said mortgage in my own name vs joint I think as measured risks go it's okay. Plus I am in the property, and have the majority of the capital in my sole name (as I earned it and saved it and we don't have joint accounts).

This isn't about understanding who is right or wrong... I don't know if my wife is right since she refuses to give me any further reasoning about her decisions. She might as well be standing there with her fingers in her ears singing la la la la la la la. She ignored my question about what she would expect with a new mediator so I am none the wiser as to what she's looking to achieve and whether this new change is likely to be effective.

My primary objective is to have as much of what I have (and the kids) at the moment intact post divorce. I'm in no hurry.

Excerpt
So...it is very likely that if you desire an inexpensive path, you will bear the brunt of "getting stuff done", which seems to be the opposite of the more passive approach you seem to have taken.

I utterly agree with this statement, and this is the position I find myself in. e.g. she sends a nonsense divorce proposal... then chases why I've not responded to it. I re-write the proposal and apply it to a known legal process. I don't want a divorce BUT I see that one absolutely needs to happen now. I can't much imagine that ANY time will be spent reviewing my W's proposal and it will all be about the one I have put on the table... so it'll be my divorce that I've given her... which is the last thing I wanted to be responsible for. I am bored spending all my waking hours (and hours when I want to be sleeping) thinking about how I can succinctly respond to her, not emotionally trigger her and encourage her towards a path that is likely to result in SOME progress whatever that is.

My sister is heavily involved now and attempting to help me navigate things... she's ex top 4 accounting firm, so's her husband... not idiots and plenty of client facing experience... It's been 3-4 months of their involvement and I think they are losing the will to live and partially appreciate the maddening nature of it all.

"I can see why people have a party at the end of this!"

New-Life
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« Reply #50 on: November 10, 2020, 03:09:08 PM »

So your goal is to slow-walk the divorce while continuing to try to get your STBX to make sense?
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« Reply #51 on: November 10, 2020, 04:11:52 PM »

Slow or fast I don’t care. I’ve resided myself that she will never make sense hence I have concluded that a divorce is necessary.

I have just received a mail from her suggesting I should choose the new mediator... which is ironic since I didn’t think there was anything wrong with the last one! And she’s refused to tell me what she’s looking for from a new one! Head hits desk
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« Reply #52 on: November 10, 2020, 04:50:35 PM »

  I have concluded that a divorce is necessary.

So...if this is true.  Can you think of a benefit from concluding quickly?  Can you think of a benefit of dragging it out?

I would hope you can respond to the email with a

"OK...I find one and get back to you in a a couple days."

Best,

FF
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« Reply #53 on: November 10, 2020, 04:59:03 PM »

If you select this new mediator, can you limit the number of sessions you will attend? Otherwise, you're going to find yourself in this same place again. And then again.

Ad infinitum nauseum.
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« Reply #54 on: November 10, 2020, 05:55:09 PM »

If you select this new mediator, can you limit the number of sessions you will attend? Otherwise, you're going to find yourself in this same place again. And then again.

Ad infinitum nauseum.

Mr Spock:  "Captain Kirk, To respond with logic to an illogical demand is illogical."

If you do go down the path of using a new mediator, (1) ask your current mediator for a list of qualified mediators, (2) the new mediator can get the background and mediation status from the existing mediator, (3) you will file in court to get that process started so no delays when mediation succeeds/fails, (4) set a firm time limit on mediation, no extensions.
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« Reply #55 on: November 10, 2020, 07:25:24 PM »

Find a collaborative lawyer that you like.  Ask him for a mediator.
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« Reply #56 on: November 11, 2020, 03:21:25 AM »

She has given me a list of 3 mediators, price and rough availability. She has expressed no preference for any of them.

It would seem it's just a case of "anyone, but that guy".

I haven't responded yet and now have a small backlog of things I need to respond to (questions from her), and a whole mountain of things that I've not had any response from her about... some of which I'm never likely to either.
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« Reply #57 on: November 11, 2020, 09:56:48 AM »

She has given me a list of 3 mediators, price and rough availability. She has expressed no preference for any of them.

It would seem it's just a case of "anyone, but that guy".

She is acting reasonably from her perspective. She desperately wants out of the relationship. It was a huge message when she moved out. Now she wants certainty and control in her life and freedom from you. She doesn't seem know how to navigate herself out, but she is trying.

You want to slow walk this. You want to keep competency out and let her wallow. You control the most of the marital property. Time is on your side.

It seems silly to be complaining about her, when in fact, she has been reasonable. She moved out. She's willing to do 50/50% on the kids. She's letting you pick the mediator. She has not hired the junkyard dog lawyer.

These are not signs of irrational behavior. She lack skills to do this, clearly. But she has in many ways been reasonable.

You know that she could bring the hammer down, hire the junk yard lawyer, but you are betting that either she wont, or if she does, you will be able to manage it. 

At the same time, you know that no matter what you offer her, she has no way of knowing if it is fair or trickery, and she is unlikely to agree to it. A third party will need to be involved to solve this, and you are sure a new mediator won't be able to fill that role because she won't fully trust his loyalties (which is reasonable).

It's obvious that this will only end with the Wrath of Con.

So you are getting advice, for the good of your family, to change direction while you can for your sake and the sake of the children. If you end up in family court with a junkyard dog lawyer, you will have little control but to watch the system churn you up and spit you out.

I sense from things that you have said all along that you have an expectation that family court will view things the way you see them... that they will take the time to understand the many transactions you and your wife have had. Family court is not that way - ask anyone who as been through it. They aren't going to get into the detail - they will slice and dice your money and property and kid time based on however the judge feels about the case and the people. The kids and to a lessor extend, your wife will need protection, and the court will give it to them - fair or not.

You may be getting a little lost in the detail and the resentment (which is normal) and missing the big picture.

Do you see this message in what has been said to you?
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MeandThee29
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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Divorced
Posts: 977


« Reply #58 on: November 11, 2020, 12:36:41 PM »

My preference is option 6. I would guess this is the least emotionally intense option as well...  for both of us.

You know your case best, but it sounds to me like mediation is not going be effective.

My ex's attorney took the brunt of the emotions from my ex, but he worked with mine and got it done. When it was over, I appreciated his strength of character in doing that. Many attorneys would have just quit.

Somehow you have to blunt the emotions and keep it going.
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worriedStepmom
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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner’s ex
Posts: 1157


« Reply #59 on: November 11, 2020, 03:11:11 PM »

I think it's pretty unanimous on here that we all think your approach isn't working.

Why do you think you are on the right path?  What do you think we are missing?
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