husband/daughter conflict

[Go Fish]

Hello,

It's been a while since I posted. Now we're in lockdown, together 24-7. I have one child still at home (age 18), who recently started a job in health care (was at home full time for 7 months) and the stories from work really set off my husband. She's such a kind person but he always says how self-absorbed she is, says she has no moral compass, and has repeated this for several weeks, not constantly, he has his good days, but then he'll just go into this tirade, usually at dinner, and it makes me feel like he's on a different planet. He drinks then and I guess it has to do with this as well. He can't stop drinking and won't get help.

This has to do with her work with elderly patients, and his father is quite elderly, so in my opinion, this is what is setting him off. He thinks she sounds unempathetic, but she's stating the truth. It doesn't seem right to say she shouldn't talk about work when he's around, she needs someone to talk to, but he can't tolerate it. The things he says are just incredibly mean and insulting.

We're very much alone. I've stayed with him and I'm actually not sure that leaving is the right approach. My daughter and I really just want a normal relationship with him, and it's not possible. He'll never get help, doesn't think he's wrong. I hate being in this situation. Thanks for reading this.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

How do you get drawn into their conflict? 

Is it possible to excuse yourself? 

or perhaps ask your child to go for a walk with you?

Best,

FF

[Go Fish]

Thank you for answering. I get drawn in because I stay, in part to protect her or to witness what's going on. I don't actually know if things would improve if I left for a walk. I used to leave when he would rage at me and everyone got used to that, although it made him upset and he said he felt like he couldn't have a discussion with me. I did find it helpful for me to get out and clear my head.

He doesn't seem to realize that his tone and words are really intolerable and highly offensive. He says he needs to make his point. I could try excusing myself, but I"m afraid that my daughter actually doesn't know how to deal with him and it might escalate further.

She can tell of course that he's not really in his right mind but he states things in an assertive way and it can seem that he is right. She doesn't agree with him, of course. I'm drawn in because I care about her and I defend her, even though this sets him off. When she leaves for her room, I stay and tell him what I think of this behavior, he goes and watches TV, I read or do something else, he's over it by the next morning and we're still suffering with it.

It sounds like you're suggesting I or my daughter and I should both leave when he acts this way. He will see us as ganging up on him or him being the odd man out, or my accepting her behavior, which he sees as inappropriate. I'm not saying that she's perfect, none of us are. I am just trying to maintain a family life and I'm kind of stuck at this point.

I know you've been in this for a while too, so any suggestions would be appreciated. I guess my situation has changed to dealing with a young adult, the pandemic, and my husband's emotional issues.

[Notwendy]

I know it's more complicated than this solution, but it seems to me that your D is coming home and venting about her day at work. This is normal. I don't think she is being unsympathetic. In fact, her work requires being empathetic and probably by the end of a long shift, she's tired. Also it's expected she'd feel frustrated with some difficult residents. So she comes home and unwinds a bit.

A person with BPD has difficulty managing their own emotions. It might be that your H can not manage your D's discussions about work. While I think you understand that she's just venting about her long and tiring day, your H might be thinking something else, or it just overwhelms him.

This isn't walking on eggshells, it's understanding that discussing her feelings about work is not something your H can deal with well. It's likely not going to help the situation. You, as her mother, are used to this and understand that your children feel close enough to you to express their frustrations and you know how to be a supportive listener.

I know there are larger questions- should you stay, leave, but those would take some time to sort out. In addition, during the pandemic and upcoming holiday season, these types of decisions might take even longer. So for now, looking at ways to reduce the drama and tensions between 3 people might be the most helpful. So this one- your D should still speak to her father- leaving him out would increase the issues, but hold off on sharing her frustrations at work with him. She can still do this with you. She can still discuss other aspects of work. "hey Dad we had a Thanksgiving dinner with the staff and residents, it was really nice" type information. "I have made progress in getting Mr. S to eat more at meals" - positive rather than venting.

[formflier]

Are you able to chat with your daughter about making some of these suggested changes?  How do you think she will react?

If your daughter still talks about her day, but in a positive way...how do you think that will affect your hubby?


Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

I think it would also help to examine your role in this. The Karpman triangle is a good description that illustrates the drama in dysfunctional relationships. There are three main roles in this and you, your D and your H may be playing this out.

From my own observation ( not any proven theory that I know of), a person with BPD tends to perceive things from victim perspective. Their partners often take rescuer position. But it's a drama triangle.

When your D comes home from a job that requires she be a caregiver, she's tired and drained emotionally. At this time, she's not in any position to manage your H's feelings ( and it isn't her responsibility to do that anyway). She comes home seeking support and vents about her day.

If someone is in victim mode- facing a person in emotional need - that is also temporary a victim perspective " I have had a hard day" this doesn't go well. Your H reacts by saying something cruel ( persecutor). You step in to rescue your D ( a normal momma bear response). He sees you as persecutor to him, he lashes out more.

This can continue until one or more of the people involved decide to not participate. This will likely be you, and then your D can learn to not vent to Dad. She also needs to know how to manage herself when her father is acting out. This doesn't mean you sit there and do nothing while he is verbally abusive, but that you give her a safe space to walk away to- her room? And you begin to intervene less as she gets better at this.

[Go Fish]

Thank you for reminding me about the Karpman triangle. I hadn't thought of this because he definitely is in the persecutor position but does oddly see himself as a victim. I know all of this goes back to his childhood, but now we're raising children into adults, so I'd like to do better than we have been.

Anyway, I have told her she should hold back on the details of work, but she was sort of shocked about the decline of one of the patients, and she did the right thing in testing and informing a doctor. She says things in a matter-of-fact way. I was at work when she came home so she told him. We'll have to figure this out so she discusses with me instead. He did acknowledge that she is making strides socially, but he couched this in such negative terms (how awful she was before) that the message was lost.

Today, she decided to work on something with my husband instead, responding to a request for insurance documents and staying home for a shorter time then going out with a friend. He gets upset about this socializing, sees it as avoidance, but we all need a break. I think she's starting to realize he can't handle the details, but it's hard that he twists her words and I'm not sure what to do about that. It sounds like you're saying I should let her go to her room and talk to him about it myself?

I haven't talked with her in detail about how to manage her Dad's emotions. I'm not even that good at it myself though I've read a lot. He hasn't been diagnosed and probably won't ever see a psychiatrist.

Do you think at her age I should have a more serious talk about the things that set him off? I talked about this example, but there are some other issues. He has told her, but in such a harsh way that she ignores him. I wouldn't use the BPD term because it seems too stigmatizing, but she seems to understand that he is emotionally unstable. They still want to have a relationship, but it's hard.

I really appreciate your responses.

[formflier]

I would recommend examining the mindset of managing someone else's emotions.

Is it different to realize that someone isn't able to handle certain topics and making thoughtful and deliberate decisions to avoid topics that are consistently inflammatory compared to "controlling someone's emotions"

I would suspect that sorting out nuance (or perhaps more than nuance) here will help you have more effective conversations with your daughter.

I haven't talked with her in detail about how to manage her Dad's emotions. I'm not even that good at it myself though I've read a lot. He hasn't been diagnosed and probably won't ever see a psychiatrist.

 

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

She’s working with the elderly, seeing life and death; she’s definitely old enough to be brought up to speed with what you know about your husband’s personality disorder.

Certainly you don’t want to stigmatize him in her eyes, but being equipped with the knowledge of how to negotiate his disorder would help her have a better relationship with him.

[formflier]

And that's probably a good analogy to make.

I'm in the early stages of being a dementia caregiver with my elderly Mom.  I've been taking some courses and learning as much as I can about how to have the best relationship with Mom...and in many respects it's similar to someone that has a personality disorder.

Certain things just don't work well anymore and are best avoided, or if you "have to" go there...just know that it's going to be an issue.

So..perhaps tie those two thoughts together with your daughter and rather than telling her how to deal with her Dad..ask her how she might improve/change.  I bet she makes the connection.

Best,

FF

[Go Fish]

Thank you, everyone, for your thoughtful and informative responses. I will try to have a talk with her about what I know. Her work and transition to adulthood is going to require more from all of us, I think, especially in these conditions.

The comparison with Alzheimer's is also close to home. She'll understand that, and I think in a way our experience with this in our family also makes her somewhat more objective and understanding both here and with patients. At the same time, this lashing out is really difficult because he is usually OK, then suddenly not, whereas with Alz, there's a steady decline and you just try to stay ahead of the curve or continually adjust. It's no easy road but you can still have a relationship in either case.

I appreciate the long-distance help. It's all I have at this time.

With gratitude...

[Notwendy]

Enmeshment is common in families with a disordered person. It's not just the one person but the whole family adapts to the situation and takes on certain behaviors to cope.

You may not be the best person to discuss her father's disorder with your D due to the potential for triangulation. Although face to face counseling is probably not as available due to the pandemic, I think online is being offered. It may be most helpful for your D to have counseling with someone who can help her navigate her relationship with her father.

Whether or not you choose to stay in or leave the marriage, he is her father regardless and she is the one who will decide to have a relationship with him or not. This is not something she needs to decide immediately. Right now she is living at home and is financially dependent on her parents. This may not be the case in the future. Once she is completely independent she may need to consider what kind of contact she wants with her father.

The kind of compassion she has for her elderly clients will serve her well when dealing with a difficult parent. She seems capable of learning about other mental conditions and how to manage her relationship with her father. But perhaps it is better to learn this from an objective professional and keep yourself out of the potential triangle of doing this yourself.

[Go Fish]

Thank you for the advice. I think I could discuss the behavior in general with her and support her in stepping away when he's acting like this. I did find someone for her before who I could contact again, but she was more of a counselor than someone with the credentials of a psychiatrist dealing with these disorders. I'll think about that.

As far as my feelings about his treatment of her, I can't really reconcile having a relationship with him and having him say these things to her and about her, that she has no empathy, is self-absorbed, etc. He will say this experience is good for her (like any teenager, it gets her out of her digital world), but the way he says it is really hurtful. I spoke with him about it, but he always returns to it and also describes her in this way to his family while she's standing there, also trying to say hello. At the same time, he wants to have her around and doesn't seem to make the connection or see the consequences, which I guess is an extension of bpd.

Since anyone who is in a long-term relationship here deals with this and somehow maintains the relationship, what do you do with this? We used to have distractions, business trips (for him), could visit family or have them visit (they're all long-distance), so it's harder now. I know I can't really change the circumstances or move, so it's just day to day. What is the most important thing you have done to keep yourself intact, and is there any way to encourage change in such behavior? I haven't found it yet. At the same time, he helps with other things and she seems to sort it out, but I just find myself constantly angry and worried.

[Notwendy]

Personally I think a counselor would be fine if they are experienced with BPD. Psychiatrists include medication monitoring - but if your D doesn't need that, then I think there are counselors who can help family members of pwBPD. You might even start with the one you know if your D is comfortable with them and if they aren't experienced with BPD they could make a referral.

Being in a relationship with someone with BPD IMHO requires some self work. We can not change the behavior of someone else, but we can change our own behaviors which then can result in a change in the dynamics between two people. One area to work on is your own anger and resentment for him not being the person you wish he would be. But he is who he is. I fully understand how it upsets you to hear him say these things to your D. But he's responsible for the relationship between the two of them. She's 18 and can also make her own decisions about the relationship. When children are small, it's our job to protect them, but as young adults, we need to help teach them to protect themselves.

I think counseling for her would be helpful- to help her navigate this relationship. Even if you didn't stay with him, he's still her father. Sometimes natural consequences is the best teacher. If your H continues to ruin his relationship with her, she may decide to cut contact with him or keep him at a distance. That's his doing, not yours. It's not your job to repair this for him.

For now, I think the best direction for you is to also work on your own feelings, how to not be as reactive to him. You might want to consider counseling for yourself. You can also work out your feelings about should you stay or leave but you can still do the personal work of being less reactive to your H in either situation. This kind of thing is one step at a time- you don't have to decide to stay or leave all at once, you can decide to work on your part in the dynamics.

[formflier]

Is there a particular medication you are interested in  having your daughter consider or take?

I'm not picking up that vibe but wanted to clarify.

I'll second the idea about your daughter finding someone she if comfortable with, even if that person doesn't  specialize in BPD. 

Best,

FF

[Go Fish]

Thanks again. I will think this through, about how to work on myself and possibly find a counselor to do that.

To FF, I am not thinking about medication. So I guess a counselor would be OK. I think just the home dynamic is the problem so at some point it may be best for her to be on her own and we'll have to work it out together this year as she figures out her next step.

It is hard to step out of it, the dynamic between them, I guess because we've had no separation. In normal circumstances, this would be sort of an empty nest time, but not right now.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[Notwendy]

I think a lot of adult children have moved back with their parents in this pandemic due to economics.

Is there some way to give your D some space as an adult? It may be tough depending on your home, but if she can have some space of her own- where she can lock the door. If not even physical space- time space- the kitchen is hers one night, or a couple of hours evening time where she doesn't have to interact with parents.

This is a tough time for young adults. They ordinarily would have social time with their friends, meet people, even date ( not sure that's the modern term for this these days). In ways she must also not want to be stuck at home with parents even if she does love you.

Think about what you were doing at 18 and what she's doing now. I know I didn't want to hang out with my parents as much as this and I don't think you did either. But there's no options- she can't even go to the movies, spend time out doing things.

I am sure her own situation contributes to her being irritable. It's not selfish for her to wish she could have more social outlets. Likewise you and your H are struggling with the changes this pandemic brings. We all need to be able to take care of our own issues while also helping each other. Your H may be self soothing by projecting on your D. How can she get some space for herself from this?