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« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2020, 03:21:59 AM »

Hey B53,

Imparting information from someones messages more than what they say on face value is tricky, I could read this one way, Cromwell another and you another. I'm sure you don't need me to say this but this is one data point you have among many. I sense you have hope and you're looking for glimmers of change in your ex... maybe signs that he's safe for you again. Self reflection is one thing, willingness and ability to make changes is a different story. The relationship didn't work because he is him and you are you.

Excerpt
I’ve come to learn how powerful your words can be to me and so I have only read the first 2 lines of your email which will be the context of my response.  I’m sorry, but I have to disagree with you.  My side of our relationship was based on love.  I loved you then and I love you now.  As incomprehensible as it is, that was how my mind expressed love.  It’s how I received love as a child and so it was what was developed in my childhood brain.


He is triggered by your emails, possibly because they invalidate his view of himself and his role in the relationship. Like all of us do, he has a view or narrative about himself and the way he is and you are challenging that. You are challenging what Love looks like to him. The next bit to me is interesting and he makes a very good point about perspective. So, my STBexW's Mum doesn't like other people having success, it would appear it just makes her feel jealous and enraged. So, imagine you're her daughter, if you do well in a test you get sneered at, if you're sick however you get pampered and hugged and shown affection. Pity = Love. So my W has and likely always will attract love through being a victim rather than being successful... as she learnt at a young age that success was punishable with contempt and being a victim received affection. He has a sense of understanding about himself here.

Excerpt
Over the past 33 days, I’ve been immersed in an self-imposed program or journey of deep thinking, self-reflection and learning.  As painful as it is to admit, I’ve come to realize that I did the same thing to you that my parents did to me.  And you reacted in the same way as I did.  You rose up and revolted against me.  So I can understand your pain.


He's trying self help, this might work, it might not but it's likely to be more powerful if it's done with a professional... but he and only him can push that agenda and he has to be willing to want to push through the painful parts of long term therapy.

He is identifying that the bullied became the bully... and your reaction to his bullying was the same as his. In some ways you could say that his is identifying that he has responsibility here.

Excerpt
I have a lot of my own pain, and I also carry the pain of you & XXX & of many other people that I’ve hurt along the way.  I can only rightfully allow myself to at most be disappointed.  I brought this on myself.  I’ve let you down so many times now that I really can’t let myself think that the odds are good for you to be willing to keep believing in me. 
So as much as I want to, I can’t be the one to make the decision about where the relationship goes from here.  You have to be the one to decide if you want to believe in me.  I’ve been journaling most of this journey that I’ve been on and I’m willing to share with you some of what I’ve written about the highs and lows along the way if it might help.
with real love XXX

He's asking, not telling, you to have faith in his long term change.

What are you thoughts on what would constitute realistic evidence of commitment to long term change? As a reactive-non I've written a few emails like this claiming that things would be different, that I wouldn't shout (back) and get angry (back) when the crazy making arrived... but I think I only gained inner calm and perspective on what was happening and my contribution to the relationship after several years of therapy and time here.

NL
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« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2020, 09:26:56 AM »



New-Life,
Thanks, I needed  perspective and I have come to a similar conclusion. I agree that I do have a glimmer of hope, but I also know in reality that the chances of a good outcome are slim to none. He has always taken responsibility for his actions after the fact. He takes responsibility that the relationship failed because of him. I have no doubt that in less than three months he would walk out and leave me again. BPD is still driving the bus.  At the moment, he is anything but safe. I’m not sure how I would ever know if he was better and by the time this happens, hopefully I will have moved on and will be having a much better life. Maybe if he went to inpatient therapy then I might consider it.

He is in therapy and the therapist has experience with BPD and abuse. She spent time working at Sheppard Pratt, which at one time was a world renowned mental health hospital. I’m not sure it still is. He is also in a DBT program. I was included in his initial consultation with her. I spoke first and gave her examples of the dynamics of our relationship. He sees her once a week, which I don’t think is enough for his recovery to move very quickly.

I think the fact that he couldn’t read my whole email is very telling. It shows his inability to empathize with me.  He doesn’t want to know how I think or feel. On the other hand he doesn’t even doubt that I wouldn’t read his email. It’s always about him. He also said that he loved me in the past the way he learned from his parents. He was abused, that wasn’t love. He is unable to do the give and take you were talking about before. There is nothing in it for me.

His email just reinforces that I’m doing the right thing. This may help me, not set me back. I have experienced relationships that were loving and I have come to recognize how much is lacking. The pain of moving on will  be a lot easier than living in a relationship we’re love is not returned.

Getting feedback from others is very helpful. Thanks again.
B53


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« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2020, 05:30:03 AM »

Just to say,

Excerpt
I’ve come to learn how powerful your words can be to me and so I have only read the first 2 lines of your email which will be the context of my response.

I'm not 100% sure this means he didn't read your whole email, but maybe that the first 2 lines were enough for him to write a response on... maybe. I personally would struggle to not read the whole message from a supposed loved one.

A relationship doesn't have to be black and white, on or off, therapy isn't fast and it takes time. Once a week is what the professional feels is appropriate. Work... or thinking... or change... or "dealing with" happens between sessions. If him "getting better" is part of your decision making process then you will need to be realistic about that and work out whether or not this is going to fit with your needs.

NL
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« Reply #33 on: December 02, 2020, 08:53:16 AM »

NL
He didn’t read the rest of the email, but when I didn’t respond, then he read it and got back to me, but in the mean time I had written one back.
 
In the first email I said that for me to return he would have to go to inpatient recovery. He responded that inpatient would cost 50K and ask if there was something he could do that insurance would cover.

In the next email I said that I believe that he loved me the best way he knew how and that he was wonderful when it came to meeting my physical needs but he was unable to meet my emotions needs and I gave him examples. An example being- one of the arguments had something do with me ( as we know, most of the time you have no idea what it is you did wrong, and I’m still not sure I understand this one) hitting him while I slept and something to do with the covers. I pointed out that he was concerned about my reaction to him, but he was never concerned about what he was doing to me and not only was he interrupting my sleep, but he was leaving me coverless, therefore I was cold. I also know that I didn’t hit him, I just forcefully pulled to get the covers back. I also pointed out that he would expect me to read his emails, but because he didn’t want to read something that I said, that he wouldn’t like, he didn’t give me the same consideration I gave him and read mine. Once again it all being about him.

Then I told him that I think his therapist is wonderful and doing a great job, but an hour a week, a course in DBT and a workbook was not going to quickly address the problem. That he does not yet have the skills to handle even normal relationship issues and in three months I would be alone again picking up the pieces of my broken heart. He would have to decide what is his price for happiness. I feel that he needs to have a complete and detailed assessment. I said that I am not a therapist and I would listen to the professionals, but maybe something along the lines of exploring the different areas of neuroplasticity and then have a detailed plan put in place. I also said that I would not even consider continuing our relationship without some professional guidance.
 
He said that he understood and would respect my wishes and not bother me again. It’s not like him to give up so easily so I think he is going to discuss the idea of more extensive programs with his therapist. So he will actually leave me alone or he will come back with options. If he does, I will make a decision based on the information presented and if he doesn’t, I will continue with detaching and moving on. So that’s how I left it.
Once again, what are your thoughts?

Thanks again for your input.
B53
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« Reply #34 on: December 02, 2020, 09:40:09 AM »

B53,

What's the need for urgency? What's the need for on or off?

You are where you are an he is where he is and for now it would seem that is the best place for you both to take stock and consider your own involvement in the relationship.It's very very difficult to see all the moving parts when you're still in the fight, and I'm going to suggest you're still in the fight.

One of the biggest things about T is being able to come to conclusions yourself about you. Admitting things to yourself, things that you have been denying for many many many years is key part, radically accepting your impact on others. I would stop pushing the agenda of back together, stop pushing the agenda of inpatient T. Instead if you feel inclined offer caring support. Neither of you seem to be in a place where you can effectively offer each other what they need. He likely needs a non-judgemental ear and someone who's not going to be triggered by a vast amount of baggage. You need someone to take ownership, be stable and attentive to YOUR emotional needs. He's not in that place now and rightfully so he's focusing on his treatment and his emotional needs. You might consider the same. You can be as mad as a mad dog at the way things went. You could swear, curse the fates, but when it comes to the end, you have to let go.

When I say let go, I don't mean let go of all hope and all aspirations you have for him. I mean let go of the need to be one thing or the other. Be open to yourself that NEITHER OF YOU are in the right place at the moment. But, maybe one day you both will be, and time (lots of it) may tell. If he chooses not to read your emails, maybe that's what he needs to do. If you want to tell him anything, tell him where you're at, tell him nothing about him, he needs to take those steps himself.

Maybe he gave up because he's moving to a different place. Not a nasty place, just a place where he knows it's unwise for him to go. Maybe he's learning a few things from his T... that's what I mean about the gap between T sessions, it's all helping. There's a difference between being taught, and learning.

NL
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« Reply #35 on: December 02, 2020, 11:29:35 AM »

NL,
I understand what you’re saying and I know things take time, but I don’t have the time that you do. I need to be realistic.  I’m  67 years old and I don’t have the time to sit around and wait. My dad died at 83 and my mom at 89. Both of them were not very mobile in the last 5 or more years of their life. So I would say I probably can count on having at least 15 more good years left, may be more. I don’t think at 40 that you are able to comprehend what it means to be so close to the end of your life.   I’ve been told that “ I look good for my age” and the last three guys that I have dated have been 4 years younger, but time is affecting me at a far more accelerated rate than you. I do well on my own and I’m sure I can have a happy fulfilling live alone, but I would like to share these years with someone. People in relationships actually live longer than people who aren’t. I will not wait around if I am not in some way actively involved in his recovery and I would need to  have support while I do it. I agree that us getting back together should be done at a slow rate. I can’t stand by just to be supportive and not have a goal. I’m either all in or all out.

It’s fine if “ that’s where he needs to be” and if that’s true, that is a good thing that he is able to come to that conclusion. That would be growth. The purpose of my email was to tell him where I stand and was not meant to be judgmental and he didn’t take it as such. I wouldn’t jump back into this relationship. I would need counseling to help me go forward and learn how we both need to connect in a positive way. I don’t think that a total evaluation would not be helpful, no matter what our outcome is. Inpatient is what is actually suggested to have a successful recovery.

The anger that I feel,  is towards his parents who physically abused him and left him to deal with the fallout. I have zero anger towards him or what he did to me. If he could control it, he would have. It was not personal and it was not taken that way. I have been his biggest fan and have been supportive. I tell him things to try to get him to understand, not to judge him.

I actually believe this relationship is over. I thought what I asked for was a lot to expect and didn’t believe he would even consider it. It was kind of a way to say that I needed to much from him for it to work. A way to say that ending it would be the best for both of us.

B53






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« Reply #36 on: December 03, 2020, 03:54:57 AM »

I tell him things to try to get him to understand, not to judge him.

I agree with everything you've said and you are very very clear about your position and seem to have a great handle on what your needs are and that given the time frame you have in mind those would be wasted years. You're right, I don't see time in the same way that you do, however my father died at 69, his at 70 and my other grandfather at 72 so odds are I have another ~30yrs and of the last 23 years I have spent ~9yrs treading water waiting for my W to come back to me. It's tough to say that was/is a waste of time as good things including my 3 D's have come out of it. But things certainly could have been different.

Regarding the comment I highlighted above. This is ultimately the point... your intention is honourable, to get him to understand, and this comes from a caring place. BUT, he very likely doesn't see it this way. Often pwBPD can't deal with dichotomous thinking i.e. balance two things at once... good people do bad things, bad people do good things. They tend not to think in the grey. So rather than hearing "you did a bad thing but you're a good person" he probably hears "you're a bad person" and then maybe extrapolates out all the things that bad people are. Your intentions are great, but it's incredibly difficult to communicate these things in a way that is genuinely helpful to a pwBPD or BPD traits. He will be super sensitive to shame of any form. He needs to come to those conclusions himself.

It now seems like you've got an opportunity to decide what moving forward looks like. Do you support him as a friend, or do you cut ties and walk away? What do they both look like for you both? Is supporting him as a friend even possible?

NL
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« Reply #37 on: December 03, 2020, 08:15:30 AM »

NL
I wouldn't be able to be just friends. He would always push for more. I would feel like I was in limbo. Can't stay, can't go. I need to detach. Also if I started dating again, he would go ballistic.

His replied to my email, thanking me for my heartfelt response. I think he does understand what I am saying. When he hasn't switched to that crazy guy, he seems rational. He is able to talk about how his thinking was distorted and he comes to conclusions. When we started having problems he bought an hour glass. He said that the next time something comes up, that we will wait an hour and then come back and talk, but he was not able to do it, because he doesn't have that kind of control on his emotions. I don't know if he can see gray areas with me, but he does with others. He will say that he doesn't like the way someone acts, but will say he is still fond of them. I have mentioned many times in my writings, that he is a little different than the BPDs that I read about in these posts. He would go several months without acting out, there was never any lying or cheating, he finishes projects and doesn't have replacements waiting on the side. He didn't date at all until his daughter went away to college. He has had the same job for 20 years and he spent 20 years in the military before that. He gets along well with his colleagues. He idealized and devalued, but it seemed to me that he often reacted when things were too good (engulfment).

I know he was looking for inpatient or out patient programs because he said that without insurance it would cost 50K and would maybe a program that offers less, that he could afford be ok. I don't think he has dismissed the possibility, though his therapist might intervene.

I was doing well, detaching. I was reminding myself that he has the emotional level of a child. When he first contacted me, I wanted nothing to do with reconciling. Then the walls came down and I starting thinking about the good things, which I hadn't thought about for awhile and wondered if there could be hope, though I knew it was magical thinking. Yesterday I felt sad and emotional most of the day. I woke up feeling more together today and am back in a good place again.There is always a underlying feeling of sadness that hasn't gone away since this all started.I feel communication has ended and he will leave me alone at least for awhile.

How are things going with you?
B53




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« Reply #38 on: December 03, 2020, 09:32:38 AM »

B53,

Your emotions are likely too fluctuate and those waves are all part of the growth process, you will likely find them oscillate less and less and you'll get back to happy quicker each time. I remember my T telling me that I was like a floppy rubber band when I first saw him in 2016, every time I'd receive an emotional blow I'd flap around all over the place for several weeks before getting myself back together. I think I'm down to an hour or so now. I still get the emotional shocks but the impact is way shorter.

Today I have some random anxiety. I go deaf in my ears and have a ringing sound, also have an upset stomach and a bit apprehensive... I can't put my finger on what exactly it is, I have a mediation session with my STBexW on Tuesday and she has announced that she will be sending me revisions to her divorce deal and comments on mind on Monday... not much time to digest. I also have a T appointment tonight, first in 6 weeks. These are the obvious things but there's nothing specific and usually there's something specific I'm running through my head an ruminating heavily on... so this is odd.

What have your boundaries been like with him when bad things happen in the past? You say bad things happen infrequently but clearly it's unpleasant enough to warrant you being unhappy with it. What have you done in the past to train him that when bad stuff happens or even looks like it's going to happen, you're not going to be there?... and when I say "you're not going to be there", I don't mean abandon him, I mean much like the hour glass, you're going to force a time out.

NL
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« Reply #39 on: December 03, 2020, 02:57:59 PM »

NL
I'm so sorry that you feel anxious. That is a truly awful feeling. I think everything that you mentioned would make me anxious. Every time I have feeling new or old I start googling. There is alway something written about everything. Even if I don't find what I'm looking for, I find something that peeks my interest and keeps me busy. I think I mentioned earlier that my daughter gets panic attack. I always feel so helpless, the only thing I can do is be there. Is the ringing in your ear always a sign? Do you meditate? I heard it's really good. I was thinking about trying it again, it's been years. Do you ever listen to the Ted Talks? I'm sure there are several on anxiety. You have been so helpful to me, I want to be supportive. I can listen.

Once your divorce is over, will you have to see her again?

When he goes off, I don't argue back and I just stay away until the nice guy comes back and then we talk about it. Unfortunately that can last a week or more. Also in the last 6 mos., when it happens he breaks up with me. He said that he told his T that there is voice in his head that tells him that it isn't what he really wants to do, but the words still come out. He turns into someone else. He even looks different, especially his eyes.

So I didn't think I would hear from him again, but I did. He asked if there was any chance at all that we could get back together. He said other than work his main focus is getting better. He said he wants to show me that he can be the man I deserve. The reason that I stayed as long as I did, was because he was always willing to do what I ask to make things better. We even went to counseling, which he initiated, but the guy was awful, he had no idea what he was dealing with. If I asked him to stand on his head he would do it.

My answer will probably be, more intensive counseling, couples concealing and individual counseling for me, which he would have to pay for because I am on fixed income and that wouldn't fit in my budget. Also our first meet up would probably need to be done with a counselor and we need to have a plan in place to move forward. Most articles about BPD always say it is treatable. There is a Podcast called From Borderline to Beautiful and it is run by a recovering BP.

Am I a fool to even consider this?

I hope you feel better.  It's interesting how logical one can be, when the problem Isn't theirs. I'm here for you!

B53

Do you know what our time difference is?


 

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« Reply #40 on: December 04, 2020, 04:04:00 AM »

So, I'm going to use the example of kids again, it's a common experience for both of us. I have 3 girls as you know, and D7 is a boundary basher. If there's a fence, she'll be shaking it to see if it falls over. I've deduced over the past few years that although natural for most kids to do this, we've trained her to make it an art form. Typically in the house, D7 would try her luck with a boundary, the boundary would be be met with resistance, she would shake harder, the boundary would fall over... next time resistance would be higher, but ultimately the fence would fall. This in turn promoted an ever escalating cycle of resistance, and conflict till it reached the point where a 6yr old was telling their parents they were a  Cursing - won't cause site restrictions at Starbucks (click to insert in post) Cursing - won't cause site restrictions at Starbucks (click to insert in post). This has pretty much ceased in my home since my W moved out and I was able to hold the boundary consistently and without drama. Both are as important as each other.

So I can't tell you if you're a fool for even considering continuing the relationship with him. In some respects when I consider what you have said and how his issues are a known known (especially by him) and treatment is occurring there's no telling what the outcome could be. Whatever that outcome is, I think it is very important to consider your own actions in the drama. It's easier said than done and often when I look back at my own past I wonder what else I could have done differently. My wife has left twice before, each time she came back I felt grateful that she did, I bent myself into all sorts of shapes trying to accommodate her... but then I didn't know then what I know now. My W had resolved her side of the relationship and had "gotten her way" but I felt to afraid and too scared of losing her to address what I wasn't getting from her. Drawing parallels with my D7, I was training my W to escalate conflict such that my boundaries would fall over. She came away believing it was her with poor boundaries and that I was the only one with errant behaviour. Things are different for you clearly, you don't react, he goes away and it seems much clearer who the dysfunctional person is... BUT, how is it that he has come and gone multiple times? How are you going to demonstrate that YOU will not tolerate this kind of behaviour. There's a fine line between good boundaries and punishment. Without effective, clear and firm boundaries, how will you train him that this is unacceptable? I suppose the question is, could you ever let him back in without making this just a continuation of the escalating cycle of conflict, leave, beg, comes back?

Great session with T last night, hearing is back to normal. Yippee

NL
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« Reply #41 on: December 04, 2020, 08:07:29 AM »

NL,
I'm glad your feeling better! Did you ever figure out what was bothering you?

I woke up feeling depressed. I wrote him and told him what I needed for me to consider going back. Right now I don't care either way what he decides.

I'm not sure boundaries that I make will change the cycle. Nothing matters when he is in that place. The only thing that will change it is, him learning how to stop it before it gets to that point. That is why I am insisting on therapy that is focused on that alone. I don't know if I know how to set the boundaries I need, that is why I won't proceed unless there are many support systems in place. I need help to set boundaries that are clear and precise. He won't be able to color me as the bad guy, if someone else is involved. I told him that the longer I sit here alone the more likely I will detach and move on. I'm not waiting around. It's either now or never.

I have been thinking about my FOO. They don't get me. They can only see me in relation to who they are, what they need. It's hard to admit to yourself that your family really doesn't care about you. You can't get blood from a stone.

I hope you have an enjoyable day!
B53
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« Reply #42 on: December 04, 2020, 09:40:35 AM »

I'm not sure boundaries that I make will change the cycle. Nothing matters when he is in that place. The only thing that will change it is, him learning how to stop it before it gets to that point.

Lets go back to D7... I was part of that cycle. She couldn't break the cycle herself nor did she have any incentive to. No doubt she felt powerful (for a change as the little one of the family) when she was raging round the house calling me and anyone else a  Cursing - won't cause site restrictions at Starbucks (click to insert in post) Cursing - won't cause site restrictions at Starbucks (click to insert in post) ... but I could break the cycle. Like it or not, almost not T under the sun is going to return to you a perfectly functioning emotionally flatlining individual. If you are to be part of this process, you are part of his learning, his training. I'm not sure you can wish that another person changes so completely without any changes yourself.

Might I also advise a pause...

Excerpt
I woke up feeling depressed. I wrote him and told him what I needed for me to consider going back. Right now I don't care either way what he decides.

You woke up emotional, you then wrote something to an emotional person no doubt full of emotions. I'm guessing you hoped that that emotional message would be taken as constructive and not emotional. You didn't care either way how he takes that message... but later on you might be less emotional and think differently. One thing that I have learnt in the last 4 years is that I respond too quickly. My response (actually lets call them reactions) are filled with emotions and that only goes to trigger my STBex. If I could recall the emails I wrote in the first year of our issues I might be in a different boat now. I read them now and don't disagree with the content in the slightest, I don't disagree with the emotions either... but, vs the outcomes I had in mind at the time they were utterly inappropriate. I implore you to write these emails... but hold them for AT LEAST 24 hours, then review them when you know you're at an emotional baseline. Edit then send if you still think it's appropriate and aligns with your objectives.

Like I said before, I'm not sure now is the time to tell him what YOU need is, coercing him into a specific type of T is unlikely to be fruitful... who would he be doing the T for? You... or Him... he HAS to do it for Him for it to have any chance of success.

Who in particular do you think of when you say your FOO doesn't get you?

NL
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« Reply #43 on: December 04, 2020, 01:39:23 PM »

NL
You made a really good point. When he said that he was doing it for me, I told him he needed to do it for him not me and then I turned around and asked him to do it for me. The email that I responded to was from yesterday. My response was emotional, but it was more about me. Kind of a pity party about how I was feeling about life at the moment. Like how absent my sister and daughter have been. I'm there for them, but they are no where to be seen when I need someone. He knows the family dynamics. The only one who has been a true friend is my sister in law, who by the way is British. Her family is still there. She actually just face timed me. She is married to my brother who doesn't speak to me. She tells me that I have been nothing but kind and the issue is theirs. Like I said earlier, it has to do with me being the favorite. I said that I need to make friends that are supportive and caring and I'm sure he could see that he could be included in that group. I said that I have to start taking care of me more and befriend people who appreciate what I have to offer.

I have said what I have to say and I'm done. I'm at the point that what I say from now on will just be repeating what has been already said. He is not totally void of empathy, but your right, he will probably process what I said differently than  how it was intended. Rehashing it is not going to make it any clearer. I did say that what I want should be presented to his therapist or a professional because I don't really know what's best for him and if what I want is not doable, then I will accept that. I know that there is no cure and no matter how much work he does, there will be times that he will react in his old ways. I could deal with that if it was only occasionally.

To be honest, I am making this hard to do on purpose. I know it would probably be the best for me to move on. It would take a lot of jumping through hoops to change my mind. If that is actually done then I would follow through. I don't think the therapist will back me up and may feel the plan he has in place is the best. Then at this point there is nothing in it for me and I can move on feeling that I didn't just slam the door in his face.

My (FOO) family of origin would include parent's, siblings and children. Mostly I am speaking of my sister. She is covertly mean to me. Everything she does comes with a price. When my daughter was a teenager (at the age when you rebel against your parents)she went to my sister to complain about me and instead of supporting me as a parent, she joined in the bashing. She never had children and she always wanted them, but decide to marry a rich man instead. He made it clear before they were married, that he didn't want anymore. He has two grown sons. I think the fact that I have 3 children was painful for her. What's interesting, is when my daughter needs help she comes to me.

I feel like you are being a good listener to me and giving me helpful advise and I'm not giving you much support. I don't want to be just a taker. Is there anything more that you would like to share with me?

Thanks for continuing to  respond! Your feedback means a lot.
B53
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« Reply #44 on: December 07, 2020, 06:33:25 AM »

Hey B53,

No need to worry about me, this is your thread so you're allowed to keep it about you and only you.  Being cool (click to insert in post)

You seem to be moving towards a decision albeit one where you've proposed something near impossible such that the final decision is taken out of your hands. You might want to think about that and consider how that might be transferring a bit of guilt. I don't think you have any need to feel guilty about walking away from this situation, especially since he has in effect walked away multiple times before. It might be better for you to be honest with him and yourself and live with that rather than propose ultimatums that you believe he could never deliver on.

FOO is a tricky one. It's great that your SIL is understanding and a good source of support. She likely see's both sides of the story and see's the complexity of it all. Maybe she see's the futility of her husbands position minus the emotional baggage that holds him in the conflict. Still, it's peculiar to have a better relationship with your SIL than your brother and I'm sure you wished it was the other way round.

Your daughter... now, this I might be able to shed some light onto. My father passed away in 2015. Mum is good and perfectly capable, but collapsed or appeared to collapse because of the her a lack of validation. My father was a strong, proficient problem solver and Mum and him worked well together. He said "that was great" and she continued about her business. Seemingly those 3 words meant a lot to her because when he was no longer around to say "that was great" she all of a sudden lost all confidence that she could do anything. She'd have an enormous flap over the simplest of tasks and call quite a lot to just hear me or one of my sisters say "that was great". I never saw this in her in the past. Now, before you say "this isn't at all like me", that's not my point. My point is that I hate having to say "that was great" to Mum as mentally I see her as strong and capable and perfectly apt at sorting herself out. I don't acknowledge her 'irrational' need for me to tell her that what she's doing is "great", and her calling me to ask me what I consider inane questions just so she has the confidence to do things feels downright irritating. This is a guess but I suspect that for the vast majority of your life you've been strong, capable and confident in your daughters eyes. You've never really asked or needed anything from her and it's likely just been one way with regards too emotional and physical support. You asking for emotional support from her is as weird to her now as it would have been for her when she was 10yrs old... and weird for her to give it. If she's anything like me, she has a fixed view of her Mum as strong and capable and in no need at all of emotional support. We might be older and in bigger bodies, but we've still got a pretty fixed view of how and what our parents are like. Young children are naturally narcissistic, especially towards their primary caregivers. In some respects I'm sure that even in the healthiest of adults, a little bit of this is retained.

NL
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« Reply #45 on: December 07, 2020, 08:01:10 AM »

I think we should all have a healthy skepticism of "amateur youtube medicine".

Few of us would go to youtube to get a diagnosis of skin cancer - and if we did - most of use would not rely on it for much.

I think this you-tuber is very since and seems well intentioned. He videos aren't loaded with ads and he is not selling "BPD Survivor" book. That said, he doesn't have more insight into the disorder or the partners psychic than most new members here - he is really sharing a lot of older concepts and Internet lore on BPD.  BPD and the relationship we have all had with people with BPD tendencies are very complex and nuanced and that take a deeper dive to understand and be able to move forward with confidence.

The message in these videos (and his avatar on many of his graphics) are rooted in the concept of infant trauma and arrested emotional development as a and infant or toddler.

BPD is not necessary a by product of trauma. It is well known BPD traits appear to be heritable - they run in families. There are several notable studies of twins where one has BPD and one doesn't, that suggest that the traits can be inherented in as much as 60% of people with BPD.

The old "adult stuck in a "toddler" level of emotional development" was more of a metaphor than a literal thing...  in this video it very literal and it suggest that pwBPD are stuck in a 90 day old infants level of emotional development. Does it seem realistic that your partner emotions didn't develop after infancy - or in this example, they didn't develop after 90 days of life?


Date: Jan-2020Minutes: 0:58

How the Borderline Infects You With Their Mental Illness - Borderline Personality Disorder

The video also makes the point that he is only talking about people with full-blown BPD and then describes his ex-friend as successful, pretty, smart, etc. People with severe ("full-blown") have significant struggles in life, hospitalizations, work problems, addictions, etc. Many of the partners we have operate well below that level of dysfunction seen in clinical BPD including the speakers girlfriend and would not be considered clinically BPD based on his description of her..

His title, "How the Borderline Infects You With Their Mental Illness - Borderline Personality Disorder" is hard to reconcile.

His understanding and attachment of sociopathy as a symptom of BPD is a bit off. It is not typical. Studies show that 15% of people with BPD have anti-social traits.


Date: Jan-2020Minutes: 0:61

How the Borderline Infects You With Their Mental Illness - Borderline Personality Disorder

His understanding of "co-dependency" is also off as Cromwell pointed out.

I don't think any of this is malicious. The speaker is very self reflective and he is finding his way through via youtube clips just as members here are finding their way by posting.

The difference here is dialog and feedback. We work on our understanding of this disorder collectively.
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« Reply #46 on: December 07, 2020, 12:04:54 PM »

NL
You, always make good points. My SIL feels like my brother is a tortured soul. He has used his FOO story as an excuse for everything that is wrong in his life. My mom/mum didn’t like men. She certainly didn’t like my father. She did what at the time, very women is suppose to do, get married and have children. She raised showed dogs and most of her friends were gay men and women. My brother wanted to hear her say that she loved him, which never happened. He was six years older than my sister and seven years older than me. My mom was 21 when he was born. My dad had returned from the war and my parents lived with my grandparents until I was born, while my dad went to school. He was doted on by my grandparents. After I was born his whole life change. They moved, he had two sisters and my dad started working hard on his career, leaving him with my narcissistic mother. I asked my SIL if he was happy now that he banished me from his life. She said he is even more miserable then ever. I like the saying, don’t let other people rent space in your head. I think his head is very crowded.

I understand what you are saying about my daughter. I don’t expect her to be involved in helping me get through the breakup by hearing my feelings and listening to my woes. I just feel that she could call and see how I’m doing. The grandchildren FaceTime me one or twice a week, but mostly what she does, is to make sure the camera is  pointed in the right direction, so I can see them. It does mean a lot, that she does that and I should see that as her reaching out.

Now my ex. Yes, I would say that the situation does involve some level of guilt. The one thing about our forum is that it is about leaving and detaching. The BP partners are out of control and few seek  counseling and if they do, they don ‘t stick with it. Life is one drama after another. There is never a story of a BP getting help and things getting better and if there was, it wouldn’t be talked about here. The main theme here is save yourself, NC  and work on healing and move on. But if you do enough research, almost every article you read says that with the right help, they can go on and lead successful happy lives. If they get the proper therapy, many will no longer, meet the criteria. It doesn’t mean that their thinking will ever be the same as a nonBp, but they will be able to think through their thoughts and respond differently. My ex and I didn’t live a life of continuous drama, where there was one crazy thing after another going on. He was not paranoid about everything I did. In retrospect, I actually believe he is triggered by engulfment. Every time I started to feel deep love for him, it would start. It challenges his beliefs that he is lovable and he makes up stories in his head to prove he is right, therefore he can’t trust me.The weekend before the last episode we went hiking, had a great dinner and a fun evening. I told him, that it was the best day ever. Then it started.

So if that part of him would change, then I would want to be with him. I think he is giving it everything he’s got. But I am not holding onto the hope, that this could happen. I feel it would take extensive work, more than he is doing now. Maybe an unattainable task and unattainable solution. But if my a miracle it could happen, then I am there. The amount of time he has, gets less as time goes on. I am feeling better with each day and the further away the thoughts and memories are, the more the door closes and it will eventually be shut. I think by the time COVID ends, I will be ready to start my new life. I have been through breakups before and this one is moving along as it should. I don’t have the feeling like others, that there will never be a relationship as good as this. All the relationships I have had, have had the same amount, if not more excitement and fun as this one.

I look forward to you challenging the perspective of my thoughts.

Thanks, B53



Skip,
I appreciate your critique of this guy’s video. I don’t disagree that what he is saying isn’t off. I actually only watched two. Maybe his comparison of adult/child is incorrect. The place I was in when I started this post, is far from where I am not. At the time the two images were helpful. When I would start thinking about my ex as if he felt and thought like me, the child image helped focus on the fact, that he doesn’t. It helped me think about who he is, not what I was wishing he had been.
Thanks for your input!
B53


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« Reply #47 on: December 08, 2020, 10:22:43 AM »

B53,

Lovely point about those clips. Sometimes it's not the detail we concentrate on in these "tutorials" (thankfully) and it's more small points or concepts. In many respects pwBPD or BPD traits are similar to others and for that matter it feels tough to make a distinction  between them and us.,... I've certainly heard a lot of people tell me I shouldn't label my STBexW... but if it helps encapsulate that basket of "things" that defines "differences" then maybe it is helpful. I certainly know that until I discovered PD's I thought there was a clear distinction between crazy people and non-crazy people... crazy people being the ones that were in straight jackets and locked in padded cells and non-crazy was everyone else. I didn't give much thought to those people that seemed to cause great amounts of discomfort in my life, and more importantly what it was about those people that caused the discomfort. I sat next to an extremely difficult man for 8 years in my last job, he was firm wide known as horrible to deal with... yet no one once mentioned NPD. On reading about NPD it was a perfect encapsulation of him. Had I have known about NPD, I most likely could have learnt ways to "deal" with him, instead I bumbled on through trial and error just trying to survive. He certainly processed information in a different way, and I can't count the number of times he would act in a childish manner and I would mutter "grow up" or "child"... yet never thought to enquire why his behaviour resembled a child.

Re your daughter, does she know that you want to speak to her? Have you told her? Thinking personally, I can think of 2 motivations why I encourage my kids to speak to their grandmother... 1) I figure she doesn't need to speak to me as there's not much to tell her, she likes speaking to the kids and they like speaking to her 2) I have little in common with my Mum, I can't be overly natural with her and accepting she needs a "fix" of someone to talk to, I thrust a communication device in my kids hands as they don't much mind. We spend a lot of our lives trying to differentiate ourselves from our parents, sometimes it feels unnatural to reverse that and all of a sudden have endless amounts to say to each other.

NL
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« Reply #48 on: December 08, 2020, 12:20:48 PM »

NL,
To be fair to my daughter, I think  it upsets her when I’m sad. She also loves my ex.
So, you didn’t address the elephant in the room. Do you think that there is ever a time to continue a relationship with a BP who  has embraced recovery and has successfully done work in self  realization?  Or do you believe, they are a lost cause and run as fast as you can in the opposite direction? Is there ever a time to give them another chance? I’m not saying that I am, just want to know your thoughts.
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« Reply #49 on: December 08, 2020, 03:03:02 PM »

NL,
To be fair to my daughter, I think  it upsets her when I’m sad. She also loves my ex.
So, you didn’t address the elephant in the room. Do you think that there is ever a time to continue a relationship with a BP who  has embraced recovery and has successfully done work in self  realization?  Or do you believe, they are a lost cause and run as fast as you can in the opposite direction? Is there ever a time to give them another chance? I’m not saying that I am, just want to know your thoughts.
B53

B53,

Based on my experiences with my BPD ex-wife, I would say that an individual who does not suffer from comorbidity has a better chance at recovery than someone that does. In the case of my ex-wife, she has BPD, OCD, Annorexia Nervosa, Bulimia Nervosa, Dissociative Disorder, anxiety disorder, etc.

While our divorce/custody battle was in full swing, a forensic custody evaluation was ordered by the court. A Phd psychologist was chosen as the court's expert because the court is not well versed in mental illness.  My attorney advised me to participate in the evaluation as she was banking on a normal evaluation for me and a disordered evaluation for my ex-wife.

My attorney's strategy was a good one. When the evaluation finally concluded, I received a normal evaluation (except for situational anxiety due to the legal drama). My ex on the other hand received a very negative evaluation, and the psychologist recommended that I be the primary residential parent. In the forensic report and in his court testimony, he stressed that it was highly unlikely that my ex-wife could be treated because of the comorbidity. When you have multiple disorders, it makes treatment and recovery extremely difficult and in most cases impossible. The psychologist was pretty much spot on with his recommendations and predictions (this evaluation concluded in late 2015). My ex is once again in inpatient treatment and has been gone for nearly two months. This is her 7th inpatient stay in 7.5 years. I've lost count of all of her outpatient stints. Even though my ex-wife and I have been divorced for nearly 6 years, my daughter, myself, and other family members that are close to me are still have to deal with the typical BPD drama from my ex-wife. I've come to accept the fact that I will be dealing with this negative behavior until my child turns 18, which is in several more years. Hopefully by then, I can put more distance between the ex and myself. The sad thing about this whole ordeal is my ex-wife can't be an effective and stable parent for our child. She's so wrapped up in her disorders, and she can't see our child as a separate person. The psychologist noted that she sees our child as an extension of herself and has even tried to project mental and physical ailments onto our child.  It's either that, or she out of the picture for months in inpatient therapy.

Does your ex have any other known disorders? If not, I believe she might have a better chance at recovery if she truly wants it. I wish you all the best in your journey.
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« Reply #50 on: December 08, 2020, 05:12:51 PM »

Brighter Future,
Thanks for your reply. He was physically abused as a child, so he probably has PTSD, never something he has mentioned as an issue. He also has ADD, which he taken medication for, almost 40 years. The medication works.
He said that when he is triggered, I become the critical parent, which he mentioned in the email above. That realization was after six months of counseling. Before the the breakup, he had three months of therapy and he already seem calmer. For example he came to me and said that there weren’t any eggs in the refrigerator and in the past that would have pissed him off (not at me). But he was able to think through it and got something else to eat and was ok with it.To him, he felt like it was a step forward. He also was always in a hurry when driving to get to his destination. He has never displayed road range. Now he has slowed down and he said that driving is more enjoyable. He is working on triggers, but I think that is going be his hurdle. He is not an all around crazy person and doesn’t act out a lot, except when something that either his daughter or I triggered.  His relationship with his daughter has improved tremendously. Like I said above, it’s often starts when things get too good, engulfment. He has never had issues with coworkers or other people in his life. He said they would be shock, if they saw it.
I was in the process of getting counseling, to learn skills in how to respond to him., but he broke up with me before that happened. Of course he wanted to get back together, but I had enough and thought it would take years.
 When he is in a fit and starts putting me down, my response was, that I didn’t look to him for myself esteem, which was true. Most of what he said was so ridiculous and untrue, so I couldn’t take it personally. Though he said a few things that hit below the belt.

It would take A LOT, for me to go back, but if he could REALLY get better, in a shorter amount of time, I might consider it.
B53






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« Reply #51 on: December 09, 2020, 03:26:26 AM »

B53,

What I think you're asking is whether or not you are allowed to have hope. Whether that hope is utterly futile and therefore foolish. As you know there are stages of grief and one of those stages is bargaining. Maybe, you're at that stage, maybe you're not... you've mentioned you're on a bit of a rollercoaster and from reading your posts it does seem that way. I don't want to stop you from moving through the phases by encouraging you to have hope and thus put you in a never ending loop of hope/anguish. We can always see hopeful things when we want to see them in as much as the opposite is true when we're depressed. Part of letting go is accepting that although there are things to be hopeful about, on balance the situation is not worth holding on to. It's unusual to have a situation that is all bad and therefore some element which isn't going to stimulate the sense of loss.

Life and people aren't perfect as you know. I can't remember which film it was I copied this down from but I have it in my notes:
Excerpt
Sure, in the beginning, it feels like it... it could be magnificent. And then you start to see, well, they got a couple of little flaws. You know? And that's okay. Because in the real world all you can do is hope to live with the little tiny perfections you find in the very flawed people you come across.
One of the primary hurdles with regards to change is genuinely accepting you have a problem. Accepting it, and typically sharing it with someone (preferably someone who is going to take it seriously and not excuse the problem away). Who can tell whether or not your Ex has seriously and genuinely accepted that he has a problem or whether or not he is going through the motions, maybe even enjoying the exploration with his T and improvements he's seen with regards to his outlook on life. T is like an onion, there's layers protecting the core pain, each session might pull back a layer, some vulnerability occurs, but each layers is dealt with getting closer and closer to the core of the issue. For some people the core "trauma" may well be locked away so deep it's out of the conscious mind. For others, like your Ex, they can talk about their trauma, but maybe they don't/didn't know how the trauma was being relived and replayed in their current life. You ex seems as though he is on a journey to exploring both his past and how it's interplaying with his current. That has to be positive for him, and could be life changing for him which would be awesome.

Self actualisation can take many many twists and turns. People can spend lifetimes thinking they're nailed it this time, yet in reality they got close to the core or peeled a layer of the onion and rather than dealing with it, they veer away from that pain smothering themselves in self justification and self delusion that they have "dealt" with it. This potentially leaves them battling the original wound and an even heavy defensive mechanism which is "I've done the work and I'm good now". 

I'm inclined to think that journeys of personal discovery are best done alone or with a neutral individual (maybe therapist). Partnership journeys are different and they tend to be complicated and muddied by unshared experiences. I sense that he needs to go to his wilderness to discover himself on his own. There's always hope if you want to look for it. This could be seen as more hopeful.

Small story... My Father was diagnosed one Friday with Small cell lung cancer, he was told he had an 80% chance he'd be dead in 3 months. He went home, told us kids and we were all devastated. On the Monday he got a call from the hospital and told to come in... On the Tuesday he was told there had been a development and actually he had an aggressive Lymphoma not small cell lung cancer and that with the right treatment and correct isolation from infections he had an 80% chance of living past 5 years. He had great hope, he did the chemo... then the trial drugs... the the radiotherapy... he died twice before finally passing away 18 months after diagnosis. Hope led him to live the final 18 months of his days in relative isolation, a stark contrast from the rest of his 68.5 years on earth. His hope was real and based on the probability outcome of his diagnosis, but for every 80 that live past 5 years, there's 20 that don't.

NL
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« Reply #52 on: December 09, 2020, 03:49:22 AM »

Excerpt
It would take A LOT, for me to go back, but if he could REALLY get better, in a shorter amount of time, I might consider it.

Excerpt
When he said that he was doing it for me, I told him he needed to do it for him not me and then I turned around and asked him to do it for me. The email that I responded to was from yesterday. My response was emotional, but it was more about me. Kind of a pity party about how I was feeling about life at the moment


if you are at the point that "he fixes this/himself" or its over, then the relationship is pretty well shot.

because when a relationship has broken down this far, you really cant count on that. both parties are in wildly different places, emotionally speaking, and in terms of what they think is wrong with the relationship.

testing him to do so is mostly prolonging the agony, and the inevitable.

if you want to save this, more than likely, there is a chance, but it will require a very different approach.
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     and I think it's gonna be all right; yeah; the worst is over now; the mornin' sun is shinin' like a red rubber ball…
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« Reply #53 on: December 09, 2020, 07:49:55 PM »

NL and OR,
Thanks, good input! I like to hear the truth and be called out when there is something I need to hear, even when I don't like it. 
I am 100% sure that he is accepting the problem. He has done a lot of reading and research. There is a podcast called, From Borderline to Beautiful, which is led by a recovering BP. I had him listen to, two particular podcasts. One was called, The FP or favorite person. She said, that the FP should be called the favorite host. She talked about how BPs set up their FP to fail. She said that their behavior is tyrannical, which is not love. It was pretty good and brutally, to the point. The other podcast was called, Why is everything always my fault? She pointed out, that BP people have a hyperbolic temperament and they think in hyperbolizes. She said that their brain thoughts were different from normal people. She talked about their inability to show empathy. And yes, everything is, most likely their fault. After listening he was almost in tears. He said, I don't even know who I am anymore. I didn’t know that there was something wrong with my way of thinking. It was an aha moment.
I did respond to several of his emails (not wise on my part) and when he didn't stop, I pointed out his lack of empathy and crossing boundaries. He listened. I think that was, causing, as you said, a never ending loop of hope/anguish. I agree that it is his journey, but I also think that if he is not in a relationship, he will never learn how to address his triggers. Not saying that relationship person, should be me. I read once, that if you put a BP alone on an Island they wouldn't act BP, because it’s all about interpersonal relationships as apposed to bipolar, who will still have symptoms. I had a double major in college, education/phycology. I never planned to do anything with the phycology, but I have always had a fascination, of how people work. I have taught four year olds for 29 years, so I know how to deal with childish temper tantrums. I think I did fairly well holding my own, for quite a while. I actually was looking forward to being involved with his recovery. It would have been a challenge and a learning experience. Learning how to constructively communicate with people, is a great skill to have. It would make me a better person OR totally codependent. When he packed up all his stuff and left the key, I finally just let him go. I was starting to react in a way that took years of therapy to overcome and I feared that I might start sliding backwards, and nothing is worth that. Then we would just be hurting each other. I’m not really convinced that he can change a lifetime behavior at his age and maybe it’s time for me to look for someone who is capable of loving me, without so much drama. Normal relationships are work enough. I’m telling myself that things are happening just the way they should. If it is meant to be, then it will and if not, then there is someone better waiting for me.

Yes, it would require a different approach and like I have said before, I would have to sit down with a professional to get an idea what I was in for. In my last email, I told him that it’s not my business to interfere with his therapy and that it is between him and his therapist. I know he is not ready to let go and he will show up for air again at some point. The more time away, the better prepared I will be to handle it. I haven’t heard from him for a few days and I’m starting to feel better and am looking forward, instead of backwards.



There was a podcast I listened to, that related to the story you told about your father. There was an older women, and her daughter was told that her mother’s cancer had taken a turn for the worst and she had less than a year to live. The family decided not to tell her and let her think she would get better. They threw a party and family members came from all over to say their goodbyes. She was told that the party was for another family member. More than five years later, she was still alive. So maybe sometimes positive thinking works.

Thanks again.
B53

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« Reply #54 on: December 10, 2020, 06:33:20 AM »

B53,

Are you starting to believe that you have the skills and experience to "fix" him? Or at the very least the ability to learn those skills? I would caution you on this.

There is a stark difference between supporting someone on their journey and being an active member of their mental health team. Kinda the difference between listening about how someone feels after chemo... and deciding what chemo concoction to try. Yes there are skills you can and will need to learn but that isn't necessarily oncology. Being able to genuinely empathise with him is a start, and that has less to do with being able to determine the outcome and more to do with being able to be an understanding ear.

NL
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B53
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« Reply #55 on: December 10, 2020, 10:20:28 AM »

NL
This was the way I was feeling before we broke up. I don’t think I can fix him. He will never be truly fixed. No matter what I or anyone else does, he will still have BP.

Yes, I do believe I can learn skills. At school we have to take continuous education courses. There is a program that is popular, called Mariposa. It’s a form of inductive discipline. It centers on empathy. You put words to feelings. It de-escalates conflicts between children. It does work in most situations, but I felt it was sometimes over used at school. Some kids, I think you just need to say, cut the PLEASE READ, not actually in those words.

It plays into my fascination of human behavior. The problem is, that I’m involved and I would have to keep my emotions in check, which might be impossible to do, because it is aimed at me. The guy I dated before him was a narcissist, though at the time I didn’t know there was a name for his behavior. When someone told me that he sounded like a narcissist, I looked it up. He could of been a poster child. It also described my mother. I figured out relatively early on, that his actions and words didn’t match. Before I ran, I played with his head a bit, he was so predictable. Both, funny and sad at the same time. Narcissists deserve to be messed with and NC drives them crazy. BP is different, they are not trying to hurt others, they are just trying to find a way to alleviate their pain, we are just collateral damage. That is what makes this so difficult for me, if he was manipulating me for his gain, it would be easy to throw is butt to the curb. Underneath it all, he is a kind person. He is the type, who stops to help people on the side of the road, gives money to the homeless. He gave his diabetic brother a kidney. He did a lot to make my life better and for that I will always be grateful.

Once again, thanks. I hope things are going well for you!
B53


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« Reply #56 on: December 10, 2020, 10:23:42 AM »

I see you can’t use swear words.
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« Reply #57 on: December 10, 2020, 07:55:25 PM »

Hi B53

Some kids, I think you just need to say, cut the PLEASE READ, not actually in those words.

The "PLEASE READ" link goes to 404 error page not found. Not sure what to make of it. Probably a bug or glitch or some sort.

BP is different, they are not trying to hurt others, they are just trying to find a way to alleviate their pain, we are just collateral damage. That is what makes this so difficult for me, if he was manipulating me for his gain, it would be easy to throw is butt to the curb.


to borrow one of Carl Jungs words, "hintergedanken" (hopefully slips through the automated swear word filter  Smiling (click to insert in post) or 'hidden motive'

the whole point is, when it comes to identifying manipulation - if it is hidden, it is hidden. From the person themselves, to the person it is directed towards.

Therefore, I have no way of knowing if my ex with BPD was manipulating me, or even via versa. If it is hidden, thats kinda the whole point?

So in terms of it being a reason of difficulty in detaching I feel I had to put it to one side.
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« Reply #58 on: December 11, 2020, 10:02:18 AM »

the whole point is, when it comes to identifying manipulation - if it is hidden, it is hidden. From the person themselves, to the person it is directed towards.

Therefore, I have no way of knowing if my ex with BPD was manipulating me, or even via versa. If it is hidden, thats kinda the whole point?

My W and her OM like to use the word obfuscate 'make obscure, unclear, or unintelligible.'   It might be more appropriate than the work lie since it's not just a case of telling an untruth, it's an active attempt to cover and prevent a truth from being found. For me, being able to see through my W's years of 'obfuscation' was the way for me to realise and thus identify her manipulative behaviour. It may well have been cognitively hidden from her (or not), but it certainly was hidden from me since there was an active process by which truth was concealed.
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« Reply #59 on: December 11, 2020, 02:41:30 PM »

some people are drawn to puzzles, enigmas, mystique - attractive qualities seeked out in a partner.

The truth is something I found to be a fools errand, but even if it was delivered to me, and my ex, and the chaos it creates (shame summoning = more problems?), "yes Cromwell, I did do this, but it was the BPD" or "yes but you made me do it because you did x,y,z)

and how can argue against that "truth" 

its possible to get to the stage of no longer important, dont need to know, dont want to know.

2.5 years apart have no doubt helped, but not time itself - a lot has happened, life does not stand still because a relationship ends.

B53 bomber style hit already "time conscious" Smiling (click to insert in post) thats a real payload to drop. people dont talk about it.

commonly accepted facts: time is finite not infinite

the variables involved at figuring out the truth are: infinite
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