She knows my feelings about this...

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

The old issue of leaving the kids (D10 and D7) at home on their own is cropping up again and again. 2hrs on Saturday to take D12 for a haircut and hang out with her here, and 1hr Sunday to go for a run. She knows my feelings about this and has even said to D10 "It's none of Daddies business", so there's an air of intentional about it. Direct confrontation doesn't seem the way to go, saying something to social services also seems heavy handed (W works at an infants school), saying something to her also seems unlikely to be productive. One solution I had was to just ask D10 to tell me when D7 is left alone with her and that I will just go round there and pick them up. But then that strikes me as putting D10 in the middle.

NL

[Enabler]

The old issue of leaving the kids (D10 and D7) at home on their own is cropping up again and again. 2hrs on Saturday to take D12 for a haircut and hang out with her here, and 1hr Sunday to go for a run. She knows my feelings about this and has even said to D10 "It's none of Daddies business", so there's an air of intentional about it. Direct confrontation doesn't seem the way to go, saying something to social services also seems heavy handed (W works at an infants school), saying something to her also seems unlikely to be productive. One solution I had was to just ask D10 to tell me when D7 is left alone with her and that I will just go round there and pick them up. But then that strikes me as putting D10 in the middle.

NL

[Skip]

"It's none of Daddies business", so there's an air of intentional about it.

1. Is it worse that a 10 year old baby sits for 2 hours or is it worse to put a child in a position to broker a disagreement between two parents?

2. Do each of you expect to micromanage the others parenting style in their own home?

These are important questions to sort early on before it becomes too big of a problem.

Experts will say that a 10 year old can babysit a younger child. It's on the early end of the scale for sure and it assumes the child has age appropriate maturity. 11 would be better.

Your natural instincts are going to favor your judgement... it takes discipline to get past that.

Might an alternative reaction be to build confidence in your 10 year old that she can do this and to teach her basic emergency skills? What do you think?

[Enabler]

Hey Skip,

1) Neither are acceptable. D10 isn't babysitting D7 nor does she want to, D10 has no authority over D7 nor does she have any tools with which to prevent D7 from doing as she likes. D10 has already expressed that she is not okay with it, so rather than broker a disagreement she is just informing me when her (justified) voice is ignored.

2) I remember you making this point before, but there's clearly a line, and at what point am I complicit in any really bad outcome because I knew this was going on yet did nothing about it. D7 decides she'd like to make hot coco and spills the mug of hot water all down her...

I wouldn't leave D7 in the care of my D12.

I think teaching D10 basic emergency skills is a good thing to do... THE END... But I see doing this as a work around for a mum who decides going for a run is more important than looking after her kids, is enabling, and enabling things on her terms without showing her that there are any consequences to her behaviour. This isn't punishment, punishment might rightfully come from D10, this is shining a light that it does not go unseen.

NL

[Skip]

I see doing this as a work around for a mum who decides going for a run is more important than looking after her kids, is enabling, and enabling things on her terms without showing her that there are any consequences to her behaviour. This isn't punishment, punishment might rightfully come from D10, this is shining a light that it does not go unseen.

This has been your mindset since the split. Your wife has said that she feels you are highly controlling. Others have sided with her (as you have said).

Based on how many responses you have received suggesting that you rethink this approach, might it make sense to do a session with the child therapist.

This is the very first article I found when googling the subject:
https://www.empoweringparents.com/article/parenting-after-divorce-9-ways-to-parent-on-your-own-terms/

1. It’s Okay to Parent Differently From Your Ex
2. Disengage When Your Ex Complains About Your Parenting Style
3. Don’t Put Your Child in the Middle
4. When Kids Play Parents off Each Other
5. How to Manage Your Child’s Transition Between Homes

There are a lot of mistakes we all naturally make in these situations. Fortunately, there is an abundance of support material to give us perspective. We don't have to learn the hard way.

[worriedStepmom]

You cannot put D10 in the middle of parental conflict.  Full stop.  "I know mom says it is okay, but you call me if she leaves you alone" is putting her in the middle.

Your ONLY choices are
a) Address with your wife (which has not worked in the past)
b) report to child protect services (which is unlikely to do anything)
c) Let it go and teach D10 what to do in an emergency. 

and possibly d - attempt to get more custody.

It is hard - soo hard - to let go of the other parent's choices when we disagree with them.  But sometimes you have to.  It works the other way around too - SD13's ubpdmom gets very upset with us because she thinks we give SD13 too much freedom.

[Fian]

It sounds like your best option is to talk with her, and offer that if she needs to leave D7 for a few hours, just leave her at your house.  You could try and say something to the effect of "I could call social services, which would then put you at a disadvantage in child custody hearings, but I really don't want to go down that road.  The easier solution is to just arrange things with me when you need to step out.  Maybe I can do the same thing with you as needed on my end."

[Enabler]

I think I raise this in mediation.

Skip, I’m surprised that you have moved this from what should be deemed as a breach of child safeguarding to me being controlling and not allowing my exW to independently parent. I would imagine that if this is at all reasonable behaviour I’d be able to find someone that could at the very least be comfortable with it... huuu seems not. Oh, maybe that’s because I’m in a giant echo chamber?

Put it this way, I do not think for a minute my wife would tell any of her family and friends she does this, as they too would be outraged.  This isn’t about allowing my W to parent as she pleases, to reinforce this she would t be at all pleased if I did this either. This is about stopping something that is generally seen as dangerous without playing Russian roulette with my children’s safety BUT ALSO managing in such a way that it doesn’t further escalate conflict.

NL

[GaGrl]

The primary consideration here seems to be keeping your daughter out of the middle.

If you and your STBX disagree on parenting guidelines, how do you achieve peace of mind without bringing your daughter into the solution?

Does this re-open the co-parenting agreement you had already agreed upon?

[kells76]

New-Life, yes, this is a safety issue.

Parallel track of logistics: Raising "care when a parent is away" in mediation makes sense. In the USA it's often termed "right of first refusal" -- not sure if UK is similar. There are plusses and minuses to it. Search for Samwize Gamgee's threads from the last month or so; there is a detailed discussion there. This is totally normal/appropriate to hash out in mediation, and I encourage you to bring some ideas from the boards here.

Parallel track of safety: Now is the time to prioritize "being effective" over "being right". Bringing up the "safety issue" track, at least directly, in mediation, may be a "derailer" because your W may be too defensive to handle it. That's where Skip's suggestion of taking it to a child counselor makes sense. Counselors (again, in US, probably too in UK) are "mandatory reporters". If a child is in imminent danger they MUST report it to authorities. A counselor will be a fantastic resource where you can get on paper your safety concerns ASAP.

DH's xW and her husband let SD14 (then SD11-ish) jump over fireworks. She got burned (area the size of an adult hand). They did not take her to medical care. They then let her swim in a lake. When DH found out a week afterward, he was furious -- understandably. So, I know where you're coming from.

The best way to be effective for your kids (notice, being right is something separate. you're right that this is a safety concern. the question is, how to effectively ensure your kids' safety going forward) is to systematically separate out the tracks at play, and place them in the appropriate "slots".

Track 1: safety issue: with child counselor, so it is documented by a mandated reporter
Track 2: logistical issue: with mediator, have time to present "right of first refusal" ideas
Track 3: W's parenting choices: here is a good place to vent/disagree. keep it in this slot, as that maximizes the effectivity of the other slots

If it were me, I'd play it like this:

Track 1:
Schedule appt with child C
Review Dr. Craig Childress' tips on presenting other parent's problem behaviors to a professional, without coming across as blaming/the problem
Present safety issues to counselor: focus on concern for child: "I'm concerned that our 10 year old is watching our 7 year old for 2 hours. I'm right down the street, but unfortunately, conflict has come between their mom and I. I don't want to sit back and do nothing because "it's mom's time", but at the same time, our kids' safety is my #1 priority. How can I keep them safe without putting them in the middle?"

Track 2:
Sketch out ROFR ideas
Find way to incorporate into mediation
If no agreement, see what your W is angling for, and use to your kids' advantage. I can't recommend enough reviewing Samwize Gamgee's threads on this.

Track 3:
Review "empoweringparents" article from Skip

Best;

kells76

[Fian]

Is this something that should be discussed in mediation?  I would see that as an instant escalator.  A private conversation might be less intimidating.  Also, what is meant by mandatory reporting?  If that means that as soon as he shares with a counselor, the government knows, he might as well just call himself.  Either way wife will blame him for "playing dirty."

[ForeverDad]

This might be slightly confusing as to why I include this but at the end you'll see the point my lawyer made:  what you see as so concerning may not be seen that way by the professionals.

I gained insight from my divorce lawyer regarding disasters, though only loosely applicable here... .  When I was a new member here in 2006 I was awaiting the court hearing to set the divorce's temp order when a small tornado ripped through the area where I suspected my ex lived or was visiting.  It was during the 3 months that my ex was blocking all father-son contact, even phone calls.  I called my lawyer's emergency number and said I was on edge because I couldn't verify my son was okay, I was anxious to rush to court for emergency action.  What he said shocked me.  He said the court wouldn't care and could see me as a bit crazy.  He said statistically my son was more in danger riding in vehicles than from a tornado and that would be the court's perspective.

So while tornadoes, hurricanes, airplane crashes and yes, mass shootings, grab the public's attention and shock, statistically there are more dangerous, but everyday, categories of risk out there.

[Turkish]

One solution I had was to just ask D10 to tell me when D7 is left alone with her and that I will just go round there and pick them up. But then that strikes me as putting D10 in the middle.

Yes, that's putting her in the middle and likely adding to her possible anxiety.

Last year my kids told me that their mom was leaving them alone for up to an hour. The kids were then 9 or barely 10 and 7. I asked their mom about it and she said she was teaching them to be independent. I was a latchkey kid of the 70s and 80s, I get it, but I also played with matches...

I checked the laws here in California and there was no clear answer.

Maybe it isn't wise, but in my case, I want the kids to know what to do even if daddy wolf kicks the bucket unexpectedly.  At my house, we don't have a landline, but they know how to call fire help with the alarm panel. They know two trusted neighbors on this side of the street they can go to and two on the other side of the street. They've long known how to feed themselves. We have a guard pup.

Maybe validate your daughter's feelings (SET) and discuss a safety plan at your home and imply it could work at her mom's house, too. Unless there's a solution to stop it?

I strongly suspected in our case that their mom needed "mommy time" even though we share custody. Recently, I had a stern talk with the kids after they were messing with her during her work zoom meetings which she had to pause to deal with them. I rarely webex, but when I do, I expect discipline from them. I told them I expected it at the other home as well. "What goes here, goes there, as we're all in this together even though it sucks " etc. It wasn't taking sides with their mom and they didn't take it that way (even though D8 threw a snit).

Teach them what you want them to do with you and likely they'll do it with their mom. Devise a safety plan with them, to get their buy in.

[Skip]

Oh, maybe that’s because I’m in a giant echo chamber?

NL, you often state that your wife's friends and employers validate her thinking, or are fooled by her narrative to validate her thinking, or as you phrase it here "lives in an echo chamber". She "grooms" her advisors. You readily agree with that.

You have stated that you are very opinionated and expect people to "prove their point to your standards" before it will influence your thinking. You are very polite to members who validate you and short, dismissive, or just ignore those who don't. You groom your advisors, too.

Divorce is often a drama triangle and yours is a pretty significant one. Many here are trying to center you, NL. Many of us went through a divorce - lived it - and have done the postmortem and are trying to help you, now.

Now with respect to the issue at hand... there are four elements discussed here; (1) child physical safety, (2) child mental/emotional safety, and (3) constructive vs (4) destructive co-parenting techniques. .

Striking the right balance is important. Doubling down on tactics that didn't work in the marriage is just going to transform an acrimonious marriage into an acrimonious 10 year child rearing calamity. You are both leaning heavily toward the latter and quick to see how the other is wrong and slow to see it in yourself. Matthew 7:5.

Child physical safety Is it neglect to leave a 10-11-12 year old child alone for 30 minutes, and hour, 2 hours? to walk the dog, take a bath, run to the pharmacy, take another child to choir practice? Here is a survey from the American Association of Pediatrics. They start the clock at 4 hours (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/10/191025075904.htm ). On a UK government website it says children under 12 are rarely mature enough to be left alone for a long period of time. There are very few state laws on this, I did find one - Kansas - 9 years old. My point is simply that this is not a black and white issue - there is parental judgement involved. You wife has a more active social life than you and is going to be inclined to teach her kids to be more independent/self sufficient sooner.

Child mental/emotional safety Regularly encouraging the children to deal with their mother as an adult will rob them of their childhood. Not centering them when they judge her, disobey her, punish her is serious stuff. Read the Parent/Siblings board if you want a crystal ball into the depth of the wounds. There is parental judgement involved here too.

Are the children at greater risk right not of physical or emotional injury? My sense would lean to the latter.

Constructive vs destructive co-parenting techniques Kell's gave you good advise on this one. Read to understand the constructive ways to deal with your wife. Utilize third parties and get agreement on principles (rather than directly micro manage specific situations). Work with a therapist to better understand what healthly co-parenting is and what healthy boundaries are in co-parenting.

Now is the time to get these healthy practices entrenched. You are both in the formative period of co-parenting and there have been a lot of unhealthy things happening. Don't solidify that.

You need to pivot.

[Enabler]

Skip, I am generally triggered by people who falsely represent what I have said or in this case not said, I am especially triggered by using that false representation to consistently and unwaveringly point towards me being petty, mean, unreasonable, arrogant, stubborn and generally nefarious. I am even more triggered by those that use those false representations to imply my motivations are other than those stated.

Oh, maybe that’s because I’m in a giant echo chamber?

My point being that I... ME... MYSELF must be in a very large echo chamber since I have not found a single person (in my non-virtual world... and lets say that ~75 people) that thinks it's okay to leave a 7... not 10,11 or 12... alone in a house with a 10 year old as their responsible guardian.

Between myself and my Wife I am the one far more inclined to push for independent behaviour and have been very comfortable in reassuring D10 to spend short periods of time at home alone whilst her Mum comes home from work or she's unwilling to come on errands with me. D12 is comfortable with being here for a few hours in the evening when I'm within a few minutes drive and in regular contact on Whatsapp or phone and home before her bedtime... this is relatively new (last 6m). My wife is not comfortable with this, yet it is within the spirit of the NSPCC guidelines AND both children are VERY comfortable with this level of independence.

If called to account for either decisions regarding D10 or D12 I would be willing to make an honest and open account of myself and stand firm in the assurance that I had consciously decided that I had carried out appropriate risk assessment. Knowing that my SEVEN year old daughter is being left alone with a 10yr old, I am at least culpable for that decision as well. Some months back I referred to "the hand over of responsibility" in reference to handover of the children... my W was particularly quick to point out that I'm always responsible for the children regardless of which home they live in. I cannot claim ignorance of these facts and you seem to be the only person thus far who thinks it's somewhat of a grey area and I'm micro-managing.

I am not co-parenting with my wife, and instead (under your advisement) I am parallel parenting. My wife lacks the consistency to carry out agreed parenting plans and guidelines in the manner she talks so passionately about. The 20 point parenting agreement she so honourably proposed yet broke 2 of the agreements within a few hours of handing to me was a more memorable example. On the whole I leave what she does well alone, in fact I would like to utterly disassociate myself from her choices and what she does. The children seem utterly comfortable with this and understand there is clear differentiation between what Mum says and does and what Dad says and does. I have experienced too many incidences of saying one thing and doing another leading to situations I have no recourse (or will) with which to effect change on her side. I might note that the children have also experienced this confusing behaviour and don't at all like it The reasonable discussion happened... her side of the agreement was not carried out.

Fian, you make a valid point about this being a very inflammatory (because I think it will be shaming) point to make in mediation. The child P is an option, however, the last time we saw her didn't go too well for my W + the co-parenting 3-6 month course that she pushes is a commitment of about £30k (no joke) which is hugely out of scope, and the P doesn't seem keen to spot solve issues (rightly so probably as it's just plugging holes). Involving my W's parents or sister is triangulating (and likely not positively) and discussing with social services feels like using a sledge hammer to crack a nut. BUT, the longer this continues the albeit slight risk of something bad  happening, happening, and me being asked to account for why I knew and did nothing. Boundaries are pointless without consequences... she knows the boundary but there is no consequence for her utterly ignoring it.

Turkish, this is about 'Mommy time' and more likely this is also about 'Mommy self medicating with exercise time'.

To be clear re D10, at the moment I have told her to contact me if she is uncomfortable with the situation or she feels in danger. Since at the moment I hear about these incidence after the fact, I'm not really even able to be in a position to make myself a viable safety net for D10 or instruct her as to whom is, since I'm not made aware of W leaving them till afterwards. W doesn't give me a headsup and neither does D10 tell me, enabling me to be available or have my phone off silent. What if I'm out... or still in bed when W goes for her early morning runs?

NL

[defogging]

I would suggest asking a lawyer about this.  I recently had this exact discussion with my attorney, more for my end of things than on my exPDw's end.  It was starting to feel ridiculous to drag all three kids with me everywhere I went, and I felt that my D10 and D7 were capable of staying home by themselves for a short time.  (7 seems young, but my D7 is an extremely responsible kiddo).  So, I checked in with him to see what he could easily defend in case my ex tried to accuse me of being an irresponsible parent.  My state has no clear laws on this.

His advice to me (for my jurisdiction) was that 10 is old enough to stay home alone for a short period of time, and 12 is old enough to babysit younger kids.  That is based on a state law that 12 is the age when kids can start working (i.e., babysitting).  He cautioned that the caveat is that the parent still has to make a judgment call at all ages because in some situations even a 17 year old isn't capable of being unsupervised.

I think a lawyer would be able to help you get some clear direction on what you should do here.  They may advise to let it go, they may advise to get social services involved, who knows.  But you bring up a good point that you may be culpable just by the fact that you knew about it, if nothing else you should run this by a lawyer to see what kind of liability you have there.

[Turkish]

After I get them set up for remote school, I leave them for about 10 minutes to get coffee at the store around the block, locking the front door. On occasion, I've left them for 25 minutes to shop at the grocery store 3 blocks away, but try to do that when they're not with me. We've left S10 alone when D8 and I take the dog for walks around the block.

NL, "self-medicating" might help her not lash out at the kids. You might have to weigh this.

Last September, I was in an accident. I called my ex to take the kids on my night. I had to wait for a cop and wasn't sure if be able to pick up the kids on time from after- school care. She later told me that she lashed out at the kids because it interfered with her evening run, "I'm not even supposed to have you today!" Horrible thing to say to your children.  She felt guilty enough to tell me (and she was venting that they gave her a hard time). I didn't judge, but decided to drive more carefully...

[Enabler]

NL, "self-medicating" might help her not lash out at the kids. You might have to weigh this.

I agree and this is all part of my thought process. This isn't the first time this issue has come up... the conflict between her "need" (and I believe it is a need to her) to go running (and self medicate) and her obligation to look after the kids. 2 years ago questions were asked about whether it was okay to leave the kids at home whilst she went for a run in the summer holidays or if it was okay to leave them in a hotel room and use the gym. At the time I tactfully said I didn't think this was okay... which in effect made the situation change such that I was "controlling her" and "stopping her going for a run". Although I don't think she will physically lash out at the kids, but verbally things can get out of hand and exercise has a tendency to give her the boost she needs to centre herself. As far as the verbalise narrative goes she is running for fitness, she wouldn't dare suggest she needs to do it to stay calm and effectively parent, that would be far far far too close to the truth.

So, I could offer to look after the kids whilst she went for a run... but then I'm straight back to enabling her, a situation I was pretty happy to be able to get some distance from and able to put a boundary between my time and her time. Then what's next... ?

NL

[Skip]

The term self-medicating refers to attempts to deal with depression, pain (physical or emotional), or intense emotions with the help of drugs (prescription or otherwise), alcohol, and other substances, and without the guidance of a doctor.

Her run, by definition, is not self medicating. It's healthy. Leaving the girls alone for short bursts is not neglect - we showed you the expert opinion - its often a practical necessity.   Undermining her parenting in her home ("call me if mommy is not doing what you want, dear") is not parallel parenting...  it's classic triangulation (rescuer) and bad boundfaries.

There is a term in the US -  "nothing-burger". Her actions are a "nothing-burger".

Boundaries are pointless without consequences... she knows the boundary but there is no consequence for her utterly ignoring it.

None of what you are talking about is a healthy boundary, and in co-parenting you will come to learn that the courts and Child services will only support you in trying to effect "controls" on the other parent in the most egregious or serious circumstances.

Your wife moved out and you two are getting a divorce to end all of this - not recast it in another relationship form.

Its important to let go.

To be clear re D10, at the moment I have told her to contact me if she is uncomfortable with the situation or she feels in danger.

Let's break this down. Mommy goes for a run. The wind is blowing and occasionally rubbing a tree branch on the house.

Here is what the child faces...

  Scared (as is normal)
  Must make decision to disobey either mom or dad.
  Fearful of what to do.
  Must concoct a false narrative to protect themself from the parent they disobey

Here is what the adults face...

  Awareness that there is an effort to be undermined
  Escalation of actions with child to avoid interference by the other party. If daddy does "x" call me. Don't tell mommy that we did "x".

Here is what the child faces next...

  Realization that they must measure everything they say and do to each parent in terms of how it will weigh into the parents ongoing fight
  Realization that having separate narratives is what please the parents most

So when the child is with Daddy, she tell him how much nicer and calmer his house is - better than mommy! They see that daddy is most pleased to hear this. Positive reinforcement.

And when the child is with mommy, they tell her how they love they way she talks to them and cuddles with them - better than daddy! They see that mommy is most please to hear this.  Positive reinforcement.

... and this can soon evolves to:

How did you like the trip to Disneyland with mom?

Answer to mom: It was the best time of my life. [followed by positive reinforcement from mom]

Answer to dad: It rained and the hotel was weird. [followed by positive reinforcement from dad]

Do you want you girl living like this and needing to "handle you"?

[defogging]

I'd try to look on the bright side of this too.  Exercising is a better form of "self medicating" than say, heading to the local bar for a couple drinks while the kids are at home.  It also depends on what exactly is happening - is your W going on 20 mile runs for 3 hours without any contact, or is she running for 30 minutes in the neighborhood and always within a half mile of the house?  If she's relatively close by and they could contact her in an emergency, probably not a big deal.

Most people, PD or not (and myself included), need a break from parenting sometimes.  I'm certainly a better parent if I get some time away from them, for me it's working out in the basement before they wake up while they're this young.  Especially in the midst of this staying at home and remote learning, it's clear to me that the kids and I get sick of being cooped up in the house with each other all the time.  I agree with Skip that running isn't really self medicating, it's a healthy outlet from the stresses of parenting.

My next door neighbors routinely leave their kids (11,8,6) home for short periods without either parent there.  Different situation as they're married and get along well.  They allow their kids to roam more than I can right now.  I think it's a good thing, it teaches the kids independence and responsibility.  Unfortunately I have to worry about potential accusations from my ex so I have to be more conservative about it.  Their kids have more freedom to go to the park and play football, or go to the lake and go fishing, I wish I could allow that more but it will have to wait a year or two.

[Fian]

So, I could offer to look after the kids whilst she went for a run... but then I'm straight back to enabling her, a situation I was pretty happy to be able to get some distance from and able to put a boundary between my time and her time. Then what's next... ?

NL

If your concern is your children's health, I don't see how this is a boundary issue.  Are you willing to be 24/7 parent if that is what is needed?  Which is more important to you - force ex-wife to be responsible and have less time for bad activities, or doing everything that you can to make sure your children are safe regardless of how that impacts your time?  From what I know of you, I am pretty sure the answer is children's welfare comes first.  I would even argue that it is a plus - the less time your kids spend with a disordered person is a good thing.  So if wife starts sending the kids over more and more often to be watched by you while she does other activities is a win/win.

[Enabler]

Her run, by definition, is not self medicating. It's healthy.

Leaving the girls alone for short bursts is not neglect - we showed you the expert opinion - its often a practical necessity.  

Her runs by definition are not healthy, but I accept there are even less healthier options she could have taken. "Healthy" would be not needing to go for a run to sooth emotional pain during the 50% of the time she is required to parent our children. Healthy would be "I have the kids until Tuesday, I'll go for a run then". Healthy isn't "I'll display risky behaviour which I know to be risking the children's safety because I need to self sooth"... that's not "healthy" at all. That might be a "healthy coping mechanism" but it isn't healthy, and it certainly isn't a healthy coping mechanism when it puts other people at risk.

Short bursts is 5-10 mins going to the corner shop or even better, D7 walking to a friends house where an adult is at each end to verify her arrival. Short bursts is not going for an hours run around the woods when no other adult knows that the children have been left alone.

The examples of experts you have "shown me" have been of 10yr+ children. Did I miss the examples where it said that 7yr old was cool?

Your example with D10's thought process is utter hyperbole. I am sure you're aware there is plenty grey there with regards to all parties reactions and dialogue in that situation.  

[Enabler]

From what I know of you, I am pretty sure the answer is children's welfare comes first. 

That... exactly that.

[GaGrl]

So the situation is, in most cases, that Ex goes for a run for an hour, and no adult knows where she is or that children are alone?

Can you work with the practicalities of that situation -- what can you agree upon with Ex that will alleviate your concern about the 7-year old?I

Is there any agreement that is acceptable to you at this point, other than Ex not running?

Do you suspect she is not running but rather meeting OM?

[Enabler]

If your concern is your children's health, I don't see how this is a boundary issue. 

The boundary issue is that it moves to a position where I am saying that I have no boundaries with regards to my time. I would be moving towards a zone which says to my wife that any perceived "need" she has is greater than my own autonomy. As much as the divorce is happening to end the conflict, the divorce is also occurring to end the enmeshment and to create clear boundaries between her and me... physically, financially, emotionally and other resources (one of those resources is my time). How difficult would it be to manage a situation where it is okay to leave the kids with me to go for a run in the woods but leaving the kids with me to go and get drunk, or go out for a date with OM is not okay. Her time to do this is in the time when I am looking after the children... that's defined.

As much as more parenting time might be something I might want, it may not be in my best interest to informally adopt "all" parenting responsibilities. For starters, I might want to go for a run in the woods and historically I know who trumps who in that situation, and that feeds the control "I will be going for a run regardless, you either look after the kids or you don't..."

[worriedStepmom]

It's back to the fact that you can't control her choices.

It sounds like you've already brought this up and she ignored you.  So you can ask a lawyer for advice, you can ask a therapist for advice, or you can call child protective services.

While I agree with you that it is not ideal to leave a 10 and 7 year old alone together (I wouldn't), where I live authorities would most likely not investigate this. 

So I don't think you are in an echo chamber, but I do think that your friends may not have a realistic view of whether anything can be done about this.

[Fian]

I think you will have to decide which is more important to you.  Also, would you rather she brought OM to be with her and kids?  Having the kids while she runs off with OM might be better.

[Skip]

What does parallel parenting mean to you?

[defogging]

The boundary issue is that it moves to a position where I am saying that I have no boundaries with regards to my time. I would be moving towards a zone which says to my wife that any perceived "need" she has is greater than my own autonomy. As much as the divorce is happening to end the conflict, the divorce is also occurring to end the enmeshment and to create clear boundaries between her and me... physically, financially, emotionally and other resources (one of those resources is my time). How difficult would it be to manage a situation where it is okay to leave the kids with me to go for a run in the woods but leaving the kids with me to go and get drunk, or go out for a date with OM is not okay. Her time to do this is in the time when I am looking after the children... that's defined.

This is where you'll have to learn to give up all control of things during her parenting time.  You can't have a boundary around your time, and also dictate what happens in her house.  If you have a legitimate concern for the kids' well being, then speak to an attorney and find out what if anything, can or should be done.  Authorities typically won't get involved unless it's a major issue.  Going for a run and leaving them at home may be questionable, but I doubt they'd do much about it unless something happened.  If the kids burned the house down, or the 7 yo wandered away from home, then they'd take a closer look at her judgment call of leaving them home alone.

I can attest that there are a lot of things I wish my ex would do differently, mostly around how she parents the kids.  The best thing I did for myself was stop worrying about the dysfunction in her house, and concentrated on giving the kids a healthy space in my house.  I just control what I can control, and don't worry about the rest.  The benefit you realize once you stop worrying about what happens at their house is you are now on solid ground to rebuff any attempts at control over things in your house.  My ex has tried many times to control my time, I simply tell her that she can parent how she wants and I will do things the way I see best on my time.  I've also told her to contact her lawyer if she sees a problem with my parenting, and of course it's never happened.  This has worked really well for me to just release any worry about her parenting time and concentrate on my own.  It's amazing how quickly they will leave you alone if you rebuff them a couple times.  I hear next to nothing from her nowadays, and life is much more peaceful.

[Enabler]

Defogging,

I think what you've said highlights my concern with how I stay in my lane and allow her to do what she likes in her lane:

Going for a run and leaving them at home may be questionable, but I doubt they'd do much about it unless something happened.  If the kids burned the house down, or the 7 yo wandered away from home, then they'd take a closer look at her judgment call of leaving them home alone.

Many people here have highlighted that social services is unlikely to investigate D7 being left with D10, UNLESS something bad were to happen. Then, at that point they may question the judgement call of my W that leaving D7 was incorrect. So the quality of the judgement call is based on the outcome rather than the call itself... even though it would seem the vast majority of people AND professionals would deem 7 as too young to be left and 10 not old enough to be responsible for 7. Inevitably MY judgement call to NOT highlight this to anyone would also be brought into question "after the event" even though it would appear that even if I did, it would not be investigated because as yet "the judgement call" (which seems to be consensus poor) is yet to be proven as wrong.

I am all for staying in my lane and definitely not wasting my time or mental energy worrying about her parenting 'style' since it's nothing I can influence anyway, but surely even this has to have limits, AND past those limits what will be effective... and ultimately it's being effective I care about.

Being effective to me =
- D7 to be supervised within the bounds of normal parent behaviour (and that could mean 10 mins with D10 to pop to the corner shop), normal parents do take a punt ever now and again, but typically they don't systematically deviate from social norms.
- W is able to pull the rip cord and go for a run if it's her means of coping, and have a means of ensuring D7 and D10's supervision.
- W is not able to use the rip cord for alternative "needs"... W is not able to take advantage and on the whole feels the full burden of her parenting responsibilities.
- Or that W doesn't know that a safety net is being provided

My hunch (based on talking to my lawyer friend) is that my lawyer would recommend the least culpability route of telling social services therefore leaving the problem in their hands to investigate or not, but she's not so much concerned with minimising conflict as she is about risk management.

NL

[ForeverDad]

Many people here have highlighted that social services is unlikely to investigate D7 being left with D10, UNLESS something bad were to happen. Then, at that point they may question the judgement call of my W that leaving D7 was incorrect. So the quality of the judgement call is based on the outcome rather than the call itself...

I faced that concern and so have many others, that it's likely not "actionable" until (something happens and then) it is.

Over here in the USA the same conundrum is in our courts over the elections.  There are cases that have been dismissed (promptly, before getting to the discovery phase to determine how extensive the claimed fraud is) with the judge claiming failed "laches", that is, the petitioner should have made their complaint sooner, before the election.  But the petitioner states that if done that way they would have been dismissed because the election hadn't happened yet and there was no harm (yet).  A catch 22.

[Enabler]

and if it's not actionable then the action of reporting and likely motivation of reporting is to transfer responsibility in the event that anything bad might happen... which frankly I wouldn't care two hoots about if something bad did happen... I'd likely not care that I might have "put D10 in the middle of conflict" by asking her to let me know when they've been left alone. I dare say D7, D10 or even D12 wouldn't be sympathetic with the conclusion I came to to leave alone because I would be triangulating D10, in the event of an accident happening.

[Skip]

I am not co-parenting with my wife, and instead (under your advisement) I am parallel parenting. My wife lacks the consistency to carry out agreed parenting plans and guidelines in the manner she talks so passionately about...

The reason to parallel parent is because of a couples inability to work together without conflict. Conflict is bad for the adults and worse for the children.

I think it will help if you can see that it's not about her being a defective irresponsible idiot - its about the two of you having irreconcilable differences and being at each others throats - willing to fight over just about anything.

Look at your past posts. There is very little you can discuss without going off on a tangent about what a pathetic human being she is. You continue to mock even her exercise (running) as a fault. The resentment and the anger is neck deep and its only increased in separation.

You've played a significant role in that. As has she. Who is the chicken and who is the egg doesn't matter anymore - you are not able to work together or sort things out so its best to parallel parent.

Parallel parenting means letting her do what she is going to do unless it is so egregious that the authorities or the court needs to intervene.

Being effective to me =
- D7 to be supervised within the bounds of normal parent behaviour (and that could mean 10 mins with D10 to pop to the corner shop), normal parents do take a punt ever now and again, but typically they don't systematically deviate from social norms.
- W is able to pull the rip cord and go for a run if it's her means of coping, and have a means of ensuring D7 and D10's supervision.
- W is not able to use the rip cord for alternative "needs"... W is not able to take advantage and on the whole feels the full burden of her parenting responsibilities.
- Or that W doesn't know that a safety net is being provided

Q: Why did you not handle this in a non-threatening, non-judgemental way to start?

A: Because you are fearful it will trigger your wife's wrath.

So the work around in your relationship is to deliver an edict. And to work  through the children who are cooperative because they trust you (and her).

Expressing that it displeases you and telling the child to call you, blows any possible cooperation out of the water. She is just going to build a higher wall between you.

This is a little like a bar fight that spilled into the street. Things are better in the bar - but the fight is going stronger than ever.

Being effective to me =
- D7 to be supervised within the bounds of normal parent behaviour (and that could mean 10 mins with D10 to pop to the corner shop), normal parents do take a punt ever now and again, but typically they don't systematically deviate from social norms.
- W is able to pull the rip cord and go for a run if it's her means of coping, and have a means of ensuring D7 and D10's supervision.
- W is not able to use the rip cord for alternative "needs"... W is not able to take advantage and on the whole feels the full burden of her parenting responsibilities.
- Or that W doesn't know that a safety net is being provided

This is complicated and you know it won't work with her. I don't know that it would work with anyone. When people break up, they don't feel accountable to their ex.

And you know this, so you added "or that W doesn't know that a safety net is being provided ". In other words, have the children mitigate for the parents.

My hunch (based on talking to my lawyer friend) is that my lawyer would recommend the least culpability route of telling social services therefore leaving the problem in their hands to investigate or not, but she's not so much concerned with minimising conflict as she is about risk management.

Do you think your friend is OK for you to put young girls in harms way? Or do you think she is saying, in a professional way, stay out of it?

NL, be careful not to think that everything you do is for a higher purpose. I remember you arguing some of your confrontational  behaviors becaus you following gods plan. The argument here is that you are saving the children from imminent danger.

Why not meet with the child psychologist - by yourself - and talk this out? If she will only provide services for $45,000 - then find another more reasonable child psychologist.

[Enabler]

The reason to parallel parent is because of a couples inability to work together without conflict. Conflict is bad for the adults and worse for the children.

The reason I parallel parent is because anything that is agreed in harmonious communication is abandoned soon after and things are rarely put into practice. Co-parenting typically requires compromise by me or parenting being "put upon me in her way", which is not reciprocated. It becomes one sided and definitely not collaborative. Since collaboration is voluntary and I have no effective way to encourage adherence to collaboration, yet me collaborating is typically detrimental to me and/or my relationship to the children it seems futile to continue. My W talks a good game with regards to co-parenting but her ability to achieve it is limited. There is typically very little conflict around how parenting should happen, there is typically conflict around me pointing out that the agreed way did not occur.

Parallel parenting means letting her do what she is going to do unless it is so egregious that the authorities or the court needs to intervene.

As discussed, authorities would not get involved until something bad happened, that strikes me a bizarre situation where the negative outcome determines whether or not a decision was good or bad. At work we record all trade errors whether or not they have positive or negative outcomes. So is leaving D7 egregious if she inadvertently covers herself with boiling water and gets 50% 2nd degree burns... but otherwise it was okay? Like I said, there is a line with parallel parenting and I think you, I and others differ on where that line is.

Why did you not handle this in a non-threatening, non-judgemental way to start?

This has been discussed already in such a way, the very fact that she has said to the children "it's none of Dad's business", wouldn't that point to non-threatening, non-judgemental ways having already failed since she's aware of our discussion yet choosing to act anyway?

Because you are fearful it will trigger your wife's wrath.

No, because it's not effective

So the work around in your relationship is to deliver an edict. And to work  through the children who are cooperative because they trust you.

The children do trust me, that is correct. Because I have demonstrated to them that I am consistently trustworthy. My W has demonstrated to them that she is not trustworthy and they continue to see disparities and contradictions in what she says and what she does. The workaround you are suggesting is that I leave the children at risk, keep myself to myself and support my wife's unprofessionally supported view that it's okay for D7 to be left with D10 for longer than "pop out".

Do you think your friend is OK for you to put young girls in harms way? Or do you think she is saying, in a professional way, stay out of it?

Not sure how you got that from what I said... my lawyer friend would fire both barrels at her because he absolutely doesn't think it's okay and it needs to stop NOW or at the very least flag it to someone, and he realises how ineffective a quiet word has/would be. Lawyers like to outsource risk to professionals though and often a bit trigger happy about the knock-on consequences. 

Why not meet with the child psychologist - by yourself - and talk this out? If she will only provide services for $45,000 (like the $120,000 lawyer) - then find another more reasonable child psychologist.

To clarify I said "+ the co-parenting 3-6 month course that she pushes is a commitment of about £30k (no joke) which is hugely out of scope, and the P doesn't seem keen to spot solve issues (rightly so probably as it's just plugging holes)" ... because the child P teaches people how to co-parent not spot weald a leaking bucket. I believe that she would not want to spot weald this issue with me directly (not possible as contractually she is not allowed to see us individually) or as a couple as she would see it as a little pointless. Cost is £2k a month for 6-12 months so £12-24k. I have spoken to my own T who is also works with children (whom is very supportive of the approach I am taking with the children generally) but that was when this situation arose several years back. I will discuss with him when I next see him.

NL

[Enabler]

its about the two of you having irreconcilable differences and being at each others throats - willing to fight over just about anything.

and willingness to exert their right to freedom of choice over just about anything.

[Skip]

The reason I parallel parent is because anything that is agreed in harmonious communication is abandoned soon after and things are rarely put into practice. Co-parenting typically requires compromise by me or parenting being "put upon me in her way"

Is this any different than what I said? If your wife was here, she would blame all the problems in the relationship on you. Irreconcilable differences. Right?

there is a line with parallel parenting and I think you, I and others differ on where that line is.

NL, there is not a single person in this thread who encouraged you to strike a deal with your children to call you when mom goes for a run or to deliver an edict to your wife on what is acceptable to you regarding home-alone time.

Posters said, universally, do not put your kids in the middle of this dispute.

Posters offered you a myriad of alternatives for dealing with this including:

"let it go" deal with it via third party in the settlement discussions deal with it via third party in the discussions with the psychologist deal with it via third party in Child Services respectfully talk to mom and offer to take the kids in a pinch

You considered and rejected the above and decided to put your 10 year old in the middle "To be clear re D10, at the moment I have told her to contact me if she is uncomfortable with the situation or she feels in danger. "

You were clear.

... authorities would not get involved until something bad happened, that strikes me a bizarre situation where the negative outcome determines whether or not a decision was good or bad. At work we record all trade errors whether or not they have positive or negative outcomes. So is leaving D7 egregious if she inadvertently covers herself with boiling water and gets 50% 2nd degree burns... but otherwise it was okay?

I assume this is a rhetorical question  

... but lets treat it as a real question.

Most child protective authorities in the countries represented here would not go knocking on the door if a husband reported that a wife leaves a 10  and a 7 year old alone while she goes to jog.

The survey I send you said that ~500 professionals didn't have strong feelings that a 4 hour home-alone situations were bad (some did, some didn't). The researcher used 4 hours because he knew shorter times would be of far less concern.

Are all these professionals calloused, unconcerned about children, and incompetent? Probably not.

Would they have had the same reaction if the question included a loaded handgun within easy access of the children?  Probably not.

The point is that responsible parents can leave children at that age alone for periods of time safely and it is happening all the time.

Of course they will investigate if there is harm. They would investigate if a child drowns in a pool, too - but they are not going to take kids away from parents with pools?

You personally think anything over 10 minutes is dangerous. That's OK for your parenting time. But it doesn't mean your wife or the large number of social workers in the survey have bizarre reasoning.

It also doesn't mean that you are bizarre for thinking 10 minutes is the max.

It does mean that reasonable people can see this differently and that while you have every right to draw the line at 10 minutes in your house - you wife has every right to draw in at 30.

I have grand-kids (from three kids) around the house in the same age groups as your kids from time to time. All three have different ideas on leaving children alone. All three are good parents and have good kids. In my house we have our own ideas on child safety too - we are more careful than any of them because we try to be role models.

All three kids have questioned each others parenting choices from time to time - a lot of that has happened especially in CoViD-19 world. But they keep it to themselves (or tell us)... because there are many reasonable ways to raise children and not everyone see everything the same. Frankly, even in my house we see things differently about where to draw the line with CoViD-19 exposure... and we compromise.

There are going to be many more parenting disconnects going forward. You two are not going to see eye to eye of her dating, or her socializing. You will likely disagree on freedoms for the kids, discipline, who pays for braces, etc. You will be endlessly wrapped in conflict unless you truly parallel parent. Especially in the beginning when tensions are high.

You used a good term earlier; "staying in my lane". That's good. If your lawyer, and therapist, and the reference books say "let it go"... let it go... stay in your lane.

[defogging]

It seems you're spending a ton of energy on trying to prevent a big "what if" scenario from happening.  This will drive you nuts if you let it.  I've been there man, I get it.  The reality is your D7 can just as easily burn herself with hot water while you're in the shower, while you're outside getting the mail, while you're helping D10 with homework, etc.  Life happens and kids will find a way to get themselves into trouble.

I suggest you channel your efforts in a more productive way.  Instead of trying to change your W's behavior, give your kids the tools to deal with it.  I've started allowing my D10 to stay home alone for short periods, but that also came with a discussion (with all of the kids) about the rules when Dad is gone, and what to do in case of an emergency.  My kids are now armed with the knowledge that if something happens, they know which neighbors to go to, and the phone numbers for the authorities and trusted family members are posted on the wall.  You can frame this in a way that has nothing to do with Mom.  What if Dad has a heart attack and is unconscious?  Dad slips and cracks his head open?  They know what to do in my house, so by default they know what to do in Mom's house.  

You can't move the immovable object, so you have to stop attempting to be the irresistible force.  Whether it's leaving to go for a run or any other thing under the sun, your kids will deal with a lot of dysfunction at the other house just like mine do.  Keep teaching them to fend for themselves and they will develop the confidence to work around the immovable object without Mom (or them) even being aware of it.

I've gotten to the point where I feel I've taught my kids enough about an emergency situation that even if my exPDw left all three at home for an hour I trust that they would be able to handle an emergency and get help if needed.  Heck, my ex might be doing the same thing as yours, but I'm comfortable enough now that I don't worry about it.

[Fian]

Statement 1 - Not reporting to the authorities that your D7 is left alone with D10 puts you at legal risk if something happens.
Statement 2 - Authorities won't really care that D7 is left alone with D10.

One of these statements isn't true.  I suspect that you are using Statement 1 to justify the action that you want to take.  So why not report her to the authorities?  If it is truly an issue that they don't find concerning then you have covered the risk of Statement 1 without causing an escalation with your wife.  Of course if Statement 2 is not valid, then you just caused a big issue for your wife and you.

[Enabler]

Posters offered you a myriad of alternatives for dealing with this including:
          "let it go"
deal with it via third party in the settlement discussions
deal with it via third party in the discussions with the psychologist
deal with it via third party in Child Services
respectfully talk to mom and offer to take the kids in a pinch

You considered and rejected the above and decided to put your 10 year old in the middle "To be clear re D10, at the moment I have told her to contact me if she is uncomfortable with the situation or she feels in danger. "

You were clear.

I believe the board may be mislead here with the order of events and statements suggesting I was "clear" about things that I wasn't. I feel the board has gotten the impression that I have systematically rejected all proposals/ideas/suggestions.

2 incidents happened over the weekend, I made a call on it. I don't think the call I made to get D10 to call me was egregious and others I have spoken to have suggested I do that, some if not all of the participants here believe it was.

The above statement was stating the situation as it stands NOW... not as it was suggested as a statement suggesting I have rejected all other advice.

Each suggestion has it's merits but it's downfalls. I am a contrarian, if you show me the positives of something I will point out the negatives. That is not me rejecting out of hand as some members might suggest, more that I don't see these options as black or white. I would like to have a clearer picture before taking my next move, since my actions have consequences.

The only thing that I have rejected is the suggestion that this isn't a problem, and that experts have supported this suggestion. Given what's been put in front of me and the comments made about that data I do not see them aligning. I also cannot align how I would own a choice to not do anything. 

Statement 1 - Not reporting to the authorities that your D7 is left alone with D10 puts you at legal risk if something happens.
Statement 2 - Authorities won't really care that D7 is left alone with D10.

I think I was clear that I was less concerned with the legal implications than the guilt that I would feel... however I disagree that both these statements can't stand as true albeit "legal risk" might be a bit strong. I am "short that put" rather than social services. There are more risks involved than just being criminally prosecuted (which I don't think I have suggested is a risk).

Of course if Statement 2 is not valid, then you just caused a big issue for your wife and you.

Exactly... and what are the consequences of chucking that hand grenade into her life?

None of the options are without consequences, knowing what they are is important (to me). It may be that putting (continuing to) D10 in the middle is the "best" option amongst an array of less appealing alternatives, it may not. I appreciate that for some of you this appears to be a simple decision and you're miffed as to why I waste time and effort deliberating over what to do about it... a lot of people don't assess the £ per g cost of cheese in the supermarket, I do. Making informed, purposeful and considered choices is important to me. Having a consistent, joined up narrative is important to me. If parallel parenting is what I have chosen to do, and by choosing to do that I must stay in my lane, I need to get comfortable with not solving the problem or even addressing the problem and have awareness of the possible consequences of that.

NL

[once removed]

I am a contrarian, if you show me the positives of something I will point out the negatives.

this is, by and large, widely considered a toxic trait, New-Life. outside of the investment world, i cant tell you a time i have ever heard the term used as a positive descriptor. when i do, it tends to be used to describe a person who is being difficult... or a difficult person.

the older all of us get, the more we tend to become set in our ways. there can be a tendency to see the things about us that cause conflict as either a virtue, or just something other people need to accept.

can you see that attitude in what youre writing? can you see where that might not serve you, either in seeking support, or in navigating divorce, or in navigating parallel parenting?

can you answer those things without telling me "perhaps...but what about the positives?" 

[Fian]

As a contrarian myself, I have to disagree.  Contrarians serve an important purpose in society.  We resist group think.  We are more likely to see the upcoming storm clouds that others choose to ignore.

Now, being a contrarian can also be a negative, and it does have toxic qualities.  We should all be aware that our personality traits have downsides and try to minimize them as much as possible.  There are down sides of being an optimist too (don't bring an optimist to a casino).

[Harri]

The originating poster has filed a complaint via PM (and alluded to in the thread) that a moderator has made malicious embellishments, misrepresentions and purposely misquoted this research study:

...	Child abuse and neglect experts’ determination of when a child being left home alone constitutes child neglect. Injury Epidemiology April 5, 2018 (Suppl 1):16. PMCID: PMC5893514 PMID: 29637427

In violation of:

...

2.5 Lying and Misrepresentations: This is an anonymous support group. Please use this anonymity to speak more freely and honesty than you can in your home environment. If you lie on an anonymous message board, you are not serious about improving your emotional well being or your lifestyle, and you're not qualified to be part of this community. Lying to us is lying to yourself and that is a poor way to begin change and healing. www.bpdfamily.com/guidelines#lying

Staff findings:

The findings are that the moderator's comments were consistent with the study. We do not see anything that would be considered malicious. The representation of the study does not appear to be embellished, misrepresented, misquoted or otherwise in violations of the guideline.

Professionals were surveyed at the American Academy of Pediatrics Section on Child Abuse and Neglect. The majority of respondents were 50 years of age or older.

96% percent said it wasn't neglect to leave a typical 12 year old alone for 4 hours.

52% percent said it wasn't neglect to leave a typical 10 year old home alone for 4 hours.

There are additional findings here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5893514/

Harri

[Enabler]

Thanks Harri for looking into this for me.

Could you highlight the section of the paper that says that 4 hours was chosen because the researcher knew that below 4 hours the respondents wouldn’t care. I cannot find this. This statement might suggest I was being petty (vs the expert respondents) think that 1 or 2 hours was not okay (I don’t think I used the word neglect).

Could you put forward the statistics relating to the 7 year old in question rather then my 10yr old. I can see statistic for 6 and 8 year olds which suggest that the majority of respondents DID see both these age groups as neglect. Missing out these data points might leave readers thinking my concerns were primarily related to my 10yr old rather than my 7yr old. Although one might argue that if my 7yr old is accompanied by my 10yr old the 10yr old would be the child any assessment of “neglect” would be based on... if the 10yr old is neither equipped to be responsible or willing to be responsible my 7yr old is in effect “on her own”. Would an assessment of neglect of a 2yr old left with a 10yr old be based on the 10yr olds capabilities? Missing out this information skews the readers perception that firstly we’re talking about my 10yr old which I repeatedly said I was not, but also that I was not aligned to “experts” on what is and isn’t okay.

Thanks

NL

[ForeverDad]

New-Life, let me introduce myself.  I've been here in peer support for nearly 15 years.  Most members arrive here, get the help and support they need and in time fade away.  Somehow I just haven't managed to move on from here.  But that's another matter for me to deal with.  I was even an advisor for a year or so way back in the early days but it added too much stress for me and so I stepped down.  It's been over a dozen years since then, my son was 3 years old when I arrived here, now he's grown and taking college classes.  Yes, I've seen a lot while I've been here, posting here and there, now up around 16,000 posts.

I see that we're stuck on what you should later look back on as "minutiae" — the small, precise, or trivial details of something.  Yes, the parenting responsibilities are important but there's a point where you can say, Enough said.  If need be, the courts or other authorities can step in and make a determination.  There are lots of more meaningful things to spend our time on.

Do you want to look back, say a year from now, and ponder how argumentative this issue became?  That perspective of looking back, that's what is called stepping outside the box and viewing things more impartially with time and less from a personal perspective.

There's a camaraderie we foster here — mutual trust and friendship among people who spend a lot of time together.  Hmm? 

[Harri]

Hi NewLife


In response to your request for more data about "time left alone" , I found this. 

Although some states specify an age appropriate for legally leaving the child home alone, most states do not expressly state an age. Therefore, states in collaboration with the Department of Health and Human Services have formulated some guidelines to assist parents who are making this decision:

  Ages 7 and under: Cannot be left alone at home during any period of the time. This includes leaving them unattended in the cars, backyards and playgrounds. This is a vulnerable age and their would be a high risk to their safety;[/td][/tr][/table]
  Ages 8 to 10: are permitted to be home alone only during daylight or early morning hours for no later than 1 and ½ hours;
  Ages 11 to 12: can be left alone during the day for up to 3 hours but not late at night;
  Ages 13 to 15: are permitted to be left unsupervised, but not overnight and;
  Ages 16 to 17: can be left unsupervised for up to 2 days.

I hope that helps.

[Fian]

First, I don't have any kids, so take this with a grain of salt.  I think the existence of an older child would make experts a little more tolerant of a younger child being "alone."  Doesn't mean they think it is ok, but it is not as bad as if the young child was entirely on their own.

As for your 10 year old not wanting that role, I think that life is forcing them to grow up a little faster.  Often, the middle child can avoid situations of responsibility as those tend to go to the oldest child.  Being forced into a more responsible role can be a positive.  I suspect that part of the issue may be that parents would prefer that a divorce would have no impact on their children.  Sadly, that can't be the case, and in some situations, like this one, children have to do more.

One thing that I would like to challenge you on is the difference between being misinformed and lying.  It is possible to be wrong, and not lying.  Lying involves intent.  At this point, we can all look at the original article and determine for ourselves what it is saying.  To be honest, it seems like the article was more focused on how state law shapes the results that they got, rather than finding a consensus from the experts on how young was too young.

[Enabler]

Thanks for all your input here. Thanks Harri for the guidelines, that’s useful at the very least for calibrating myself to what is an isn’t expert opinion on the matter.

ForeverDad, I can see why you might have stuck around, the wisdom here not just from a BPD perspective is pretty impressive. I think there is a difference in this group of people, than groups I may interact with in daily life and one might argue that I probably wouldn’t come into contact with all these types of people in my daily life... yet here we are and despite what some of you may think, I value all your opinions even if it might appear that I am being dismissive of them. I value the opportunity you offer me to try and see the downright irritating sides to me, and opportunity to reflect on how certain personality traits are combative and propel discussions into never ending circles.

I haven’t taken any action on the matter in hand at the moment. Maybe I will, maybe I won’t, but if and when I do I’d feel like I’d be equipped to do so. Having the discussion here rather than in the real world seems somewhat safer. I appreciate the little details are holistically irrelevant, but let’s say I approach my W on the matter and she stumbles upon a tiny little detail, ‘an out’... well then my experience is that the approach tends to get blown out the water and rather than being effective, it becomes a step back. Those outs could be numerous, it could be my tone of voice, the language I use, the professional I approach. Being effective is the priority.

Fian, I appreciate your point on the middle child. D10 is already stretched in that department and I think she already feels the pinch doing the right thing since D12 is here 100%. D10 currently feels unappreciated and under rewarded. Also, given the data Harri put forward it would seem that D10 is only just borderline with regards to the personal responsibility she’s already been asked to adopt if she was there on her own, I don’t think it would be reasonable to ask more of her. Ie of it wee reasonable to leave a 10yr old for 4 hours it might be reasonable to ask her to look after her 7yr old sister for 15 minutes. Do you see my point here?

D10 mentioned yesterday that W doesn’t answer her phone when she D10 is left. She said that I was her first port of call when she’s on her own on that basis.

NL

[Skip]

but let’s say I approach my W on the matter and she stumbles upon a tiny little detail, ‘an out’... well then my experience is that the approach tends to get blown out the water and rather than being effective, it becomes a step back. Those outs could be numerous, it could be my tone of voice, the language I use, the professional I approach. Being effective is the priority.

One common thread in a lot of your request for support to help you explore ways to get your wife to see things the way you do - and hopefully modify her behavior when she sees the light.

And repeatedly, she is not having it. Even if she does see it, shes not giving you that satisfaction of knowing.

You are always trying to thread the needle and not touch the sides.

Parallel parenting is letting go of trying to coordinate parenting. You've got intermediaries and a mediation process, use it. Look at the parenting software - its great - operate through that.

D10 mentioned yesterday that W doesn’t answer her phone when she D10 is left. She said that I was her first port of call when she’s on her own on that basis.

You put a flag in the ground that you are her rescuer in her conflicts with her mom when you told her last week to call you. That made her feel good and it made you feel good as often the rescuer and victim bond in a drama triangle.

This is natural.

It is not necessary good.

Triangulation can be bad. It can be good.

Bad triangulation would be the solidification that you are her "go to" person when she has conflict with her mom.

Good triangulation would be if you defuse the conflict (mommy love you, maybe she didn't hear the phone) and show her how to  problem solve with her mom.  You could even recreate the situation with yourself and let her use her new skill with you to get confidence and hone the skill.

This is at the core of Family Theory.

[Enabler]

Hi Skip,

You might be  right about the general theme of my posts, I’ll think about that. This thread however I thought I was clear that it’s not my W’s thinking that I’m looking to change, because her verbalisation of her views on leaving kids has been on the side of prudent. So I can’t say that I’m looking to change her thoughts on the matter, but I if I could I would want her to adhere in practice to the childcare policies she verbalises to me. I don’t like double standards, I’m not sure many people do, but ultimately that’s a thread I’ve lived with for many years so it’s now more of a siiiiiiiigh than the real issue.

I think we’ve ascertained that there’s no simple solution to this and that even though it might be obviously not optimal parenting (to most and the majority of experts... and my W) effecting behavioural change either comes at the cost of a lot of conflict, a game of Russian roulette OR supportive training.

My D10 wasn’t trained by me that my W’s actions were “bad”, I supppse in theory she could have been, however she’s just as likely to have listened to my W’s vocalisation of her views on children being left unattended and come to the same conclusion. Similarly I have not told my D that being contactable when she’s being left alone is “good”, maybe it’s just her experience that leads her to think this is optimal.

One of the upsides of being in separate house is that I’m able to define and differentiate my world and my W’s world. Whilst we were sharing a house I’m pretty sure the kids saw us as a homogenous “parents” rather than 2 entities with different ways. I’m pretty sure that the kids see this and they’re making value judgements as to what they like and don’t like. I answer the phone... my W doesn’t. If I leave D10 or D12 I talk with them before I go and explain what I am doing, how long I’ll be and how they can get in touch with me. I am clear about this because I think it’s important. I wast critical about my D10’s value judgement about my wife being contactable. I wasn’t going to invalidate that, neither was I going to tell my D what my W’s reasons for not answering the phone were... I don’t know what her reasons are, I don’t live with her. I’m not sure why it would be appropriate for me to speak on my W’s behalf. What it sounds like you’re suggesting is that I rescue my W from the consequences of her poor parenting. I can understand it being wrong to disrupt my W’s opportunity to demonstrate optimal parenting or even be overly critical of small slip ups. But this doesn’t sound like what you’re suggesting, it sounds like you’re suggesting I compensate for her shortfalls, even maybe covering up her shortfalls, maybe even telling the kids it’s reasonable ... wouldn’t that be rather confusing for vaguely smart kid?

NL

[Fian]

Fian, I appreciate your point on the middle child. D10 is already stretched in that department and I think she already feels the pinch doing the right thing since D12 is here 100%. D10 currently feels unappreciated and under rewarded. Also, given the data Harri put forward it would seem that D10 is only just borderline with regards to the personal responsibility she’s already been asked to adopt if she was there on her own, I don’t think it would be reasonable to ask more of her. Ie of it wee reasonable to leave a 10yr old for 4 hours it might be reasonable to ask her to look after her 7yr old sister for 15 minutes. Do you see my point here?

I agree it isn't reasonable, it is more of whether it is severe enough to involve the state.  She is being forced to grow up faster than you or she would like.

[Enabler]

Involving social services is sledge hammer nut in my opinion. My guess is that these medium but not egregious issues will mount. One suggested solution is to train my D’s whilst somewhat swerving the underlying problem, however I predict this is going to be a game of ‘whack-a-mole’ where I run around like headless chicken attempting to train and swerve, rather than deal with things. If anything that sounds more like the threading the eye of a needle without touching the sides Skip referred to. I’d end up twisting myself (and the kids) in knots dragging them into premature adulthood before their time.   

[Skip]

What it sounds like you’re suggesting is that I rescue my W from the consequences of her poor parenting. I can understand it being wrong to disrupt my W’s opportunity to demonstrate optimal parenting or even be overly critical of small slip ups. But this doesn’t sound like what you’re suggesting, it sounds like you’re suggesting I compensate for her shortfalls, even maybe covering up her shortfalls, maybe even telling the kids it’s reasonable ...

I am saying you should shield your daughter from the emotional consequences of being a pawn in the parents battle with each other. And yes, an unintended consequence of that may be cutting your stbx wife some slack.

It may be that putting (continuing to) D10 in the middle is the "best" option amongst an array of less appealing alternatives, it may not. I appreciate that for some of you this appears to be a simple decision...

Triangles contribute significantly to the development of clinical problems in children.  

Few, if any of us, are capable of living a live with impeccable healthy reactions to every challenges. That's a given. Even when we know what we should do, but we slip. We need to try to do better as we go forward.

Family System Theory is rooted in a post World War II government funded program that attempted to understand why some people returning from war (with similar war experiences) ended up living under bridges, drinking, killing themselves and others became leaders, motivational speakers, won metals in special Olympics, etc.

They learned that it had a lot to do with each individuals immediate family environment. This initial research became the foundation for Family Systems Theory.

A critical choice is (has been) before you:

do your best to provide as constructive a Family System for you daughters as possible. Doing that will have the unwanted outcome of protecting you wife from some consequences. or do your best to outwit your wife and insure that she suffers the maximum consequences. Doing that will have the unwanted outcome of seeding clinical problems in children.

As it stands now, if a drama triangle begins to develop where your wife stands to be the "persecutor" in the triangle, you take actions (or don't take actions) to let it rip. The near term impact is certainly satisfying, but there are longer term consequences for the girls to be concerned about.

Your stbx wife is going to do the same when she has the opportunity. That's how drama triangles are. Retaliation lies in wait.

If this continues, your girls are not going to be well adjusted women. Members here keep telling you this. They do not have  the cognitive skills to deal with these adult actions.

Your girls already have one strike against them, they are in a family that has mental health issues and that is heritable. Statistically one or possible two of your daughters are going to be very vulnerable to being scarred for life if their family system is not tuned into their special needs.

You have to chose. Healthy Family System or revenge. They are, in many ways, mutually exclusive pathways.

[Harri]

Hi New-Life.   

I can hear the struggle you are in.  I can also easily imagine the struggle your kids are going through as they adjust to a split home and parents who are still navigating their way through new ways of relating. 

I have been that kid, caught between 2 parents who are not getting along and who are in conflict.  Minor or major, everything became a sh*t show that I, in my childs mind, thought I was responsible for.  One parent pulling one way and the other in an entirely different direction.  I can tell you now that looking back, who was being the good/bad parent or creating the good/bad situation I was in was not even a secondary issue to consider.   Rather, the primary issue was not having skills to understand the emotions I was dealing with and the ability to cope.  Sure, it was nice (sometimes for me) at the time to have a parent step in and solve a problem for me or tell me to call them if there was an issue, but long-term it did nothing for me.  Nothing concrete was learned.  I had a very shaky sense of how to problem solve or respond in emotionally healthy ways.   I learned a series of reactions rather than responses and nothing about agency.
Emotions ruled and often chaos ensued and that pattern of behavior followed me for a long long time.  Sound familiar?  More importantly to you and your situation, I learned that ultimately I could not even depend on my healthier parent.

It may be that putting (continuing to) D10 in the middle is the "best" option amongst an array of less appealing alternatives, it may not. I appreciate that for some of you this appears to be a simple decision...

I don't at all think this is a simple solution for you, your stbx or especially your kids.     This stuff is hard!

I will say that I think that putting or continuing to put your 10 year old in the middle is the worst option of all of them however.  I do not say that to knock you or bring you down though.   I want to see if we can work through this.   

Like I said, I have been that kid and eventually, over time, ended up being quite broken emotionally.  I seemed capable and even happy go lucky as a kid and into my 20s or so, on the outside at least.  Inside was something else entirely.  Being put in the middle, for any reason, can break a kid in ways that may not show up until much later in life.  I had and still have a huge amount of anger towards my father for putting me in the middle and using me as a means to a so-called better end.  Intentionally or not, my parents used me as a buffer and a tool to teach the other a lesson, to teach me a lesson about how they are the good parent I can depend on etc.  It backfired badly New-Life.  It back fired on all of us.  No one but me changed their behavior and not for the better. 

What I needed more than anything was for a healthy adult to teach and demonstrate the tools I would need to navigate these hard situations.  I did not need to be rescued or have my parent solve issues for me, or have a parent step in for me.   All that did was leave me helpless for the future, a future guaranteed to have more episodes and incidents that put me in the middle or pitted one parent against the other.   I learned not to trust and I learned to despise my non father.  I had and still have far more anger and resentment towards my non parent than I do or did towards my impaired parent.  My relationship with him was close when I was a kid but over the decades to follow it became distant, fraught and quite shallow.   To make things even more difficult in terms of coping with my feelings for my dad is that those very feelings were so buried and so foggy, so hard to reach, even now, about 12 years after his death.  Everything revolved around my mom, her emotions, behaviors, etc.  She was the overwhelming presence in my life and my father was a bit of nothing in comparison.  He, in his action and sometimes inaction, in his words, was barely even there and he did it to himself.  He made himself nothing.

People talk about parental alienation a lot here and rightly so.  There is an aspect of it that we do not talk about and that is how the non-parent can play into their own alienation.  I do not want to see you go further down a path that is all but certain to back fire on you New-Life.  You and your kids are worth more than that.

You are in the best position to teach your kids resilience and problem solving skills now.  Please don't put them in the middle.  Please do not simply 'rescue' with disguised digs at mom, even if that is not your intention.  Kids pick up on all of that.  They may not be able to label it, but they know something is off and badly off.  The world is confusing enough.  The new family situation is confusing enough.   It seems to me as I read your posts that you are using similar ineffectual methods to deal with your wife now as you did in the marriage.  Again, I do not say that to harm you, I say it in the hope of giving you a different perspective. 

Your thoughts?

[Fian]

I guess I am not clear what is being proposed.  It sounds like New Life has been convinced to not call Social Services and escalate things into a high conflict divorce, which I believe the board leaders would agree.  New Life has told his daughter to call him if there is a problem (D7 injured, etc).  Do you disagree with that?  It is also proposed that he train D10 on what to do in an emergency (call 911, etc).  Are you saying that "stay in your own lane" means that he can't do any of those items?

[Skip]

New Life has been convinced to not call Social Services

NL can better answer this, but I don't think he ever considered this an option.

It is also proposed that he train D10 on what to do in an emergency (call 911, etc).  

Yes. How to avoid problems when alone (e.g., no using of appliances) and to have a safety plan. Maybe mom sets it up with a neighbor so the children can run to the house next door because its the fastest way to get an adult involved. Maybe its to call the parents.There are lots of viable safety plans.

New Life has told his daughter to call him if there is a problem (D7 injured, etc).

I think the quote was "contact me if you are uncomfortable with the situation". Days later the daughter confirmed "[NL] was her first port of call when she’s on her own.

This is the "getting out of the lane" part. This opens the door for D10 to call Dad first when "uncomfortable" with mom's decisions. Mom is already in the mode of "don't tell your dad" and that is a tough place for a 10 year old to be. One parent saying call me first, one saying don't call him. This is a no win scenario.

In a healthy situation, the parents need to support each others sovereignty. Children do better with structure and where there is a simple system for getting approval or being corrected.

[B53]

I hesitate to jump into this heated debate, but I think everyone is ignoring an important point. D10 doesn’t want this responsibility. It is causing her unneeded stress. As a mother and a teacher, this is not fair to do to a child. Safety is important, but so is her mental health. You have no idea how this stress may manifest itself in the future. There are too many children these days that are having anxiety attacks, cutting, drugs, acting out. I could go on and on. The only jobs a 10 year old should be required to have, is to do well at school, be a child and have fun. She has enough on her plate, dealing with divorce and COVID.
B53

[Turkish]

As a Gen-X latchkey kid of a single mother who worked nights, I wasoften on my own. When I was 9 in 4th grade, my mom locked me out of the house when she slept.

10 isn't necessarily bad being left alone, yet the concern is valid about the younger sibling. Unless the laws are clear in that jurisdiction, social services isn't likely to do anything much, and this will escalate conflict. Just yesterday, 7 years of separate homes, our D8 told me that she wished we all still lived together.

It's sad, but reality is what it is.

I'll say shorter than I did before: the kids should have a safety plan at your home, NL, and they will likely mirror it at their mom's home. I periodically talk to my kids, 8 and almost 11, about what to do. Being upper middle aged, I could drop dead tomorrow or otherwise become incapacitated. They need to know what to do (hit the alarm, go to neighbors, etc.).

[formflier]

I think it's entirely possible that what the group is giving as general advice and what NL is seeing as a parent of these particular children are both true.

I generally agree with the ages being talked about and times they can be left alone.  I've also got children that are those ages that I would not give anywhere close to that amount of freedom because I know them and/or their relationships with siblings (I don't care what the studies say).

I think it's entirely possible that NL is completely sound in his judgment that these particular children are not in anyway ready to do this and it is completely unsafe, regardless of studies and "what everyone else says".  Perhaps even unsafe enough that he should "go to the mat" over this.

Here is flip side, which can also be completely true.

It's one thing to decide that you need to "go to the mat" for your kids.  There is a separate part of this decision where you have to decide what you can actually do...what will that look like?

Sadly, I'm going to say it appears to be true that "the system" will be unlikely to support NL, because they don't know his kids.  They will focus on studies and all that "general data".

So there is a pickle.

Deal with a system that is not a personal system or deal with a disordered parent and try to nudge them in a better direction.

My vote is to deal with the disordered parent.  The "how" to do this could use some fleshing out.

Sucky situation, no way around it.

Oh...I'm with Fian an others that appear to be ok with contrarians.  Also true that you have to be careful.

Best,

FF

[Fian]

I had a side conversation with one of the board leaders about this situation (I don't have permission to post the PM so keeping this general).  I think we came to some agreements that might be helpful in this discussion.  Hopefully I am keeping to the spirit of our discussion:

1.  Your children's safety is paramount.  Concerns about problems with the divorce negotiations and parallel parenting are secondary to this.  Part of the disagreement on this thread is whether your wife's actions are reaching the threshold of putting your children at risk.  We probably won't come to an agreement on that.
2.  Even if the children are not at risk, there is the perception from both NL and his child that they are unsafe.  Perceptions matter, and it makes sense to take actions that will give NL and his daughter more comfort in their situations.
3.  Parallel parenting is designed to prevent marital issues that can make the situation worse, both when it comes to resolving parenting issues, plus the long term health of your children.  Parallel parenting guidance should not just be ignored.

So how does this come together?  Look for solutions that resolve the concerns of #1 and #2 but ideally do not cause problems with #3.  Let's take the situation where D10 calls NL at her mom's house and is concerned about a situation.  NL comes over (or tells her to come to his house), and then wife comes home, and you find out that D10 overreacted.  Now, you have a major issue that could have been avoided with a little nuance.

Here is the approach that I would recommend (and keep in mind I am not a father):
1.  D10 should be encouraged in the case of an issue to call mom before dad (assuming at mom's house), but she should also be assured that Dad is always there if she needs him.
2.  D10 should be given some guidance on what to do in case of an emergency.  The hope is that she will be less fearful of being in charge, as she knows what to do.
3.  In an ideal world NL and his wife would discuss the issue and come to some understandings.  NL has already said his wife can't be trusted to hold her end of a deal, but the real purpose is for her to agree to what NL already plans to do (i.e. above).  Even a small agreement might prevent some problems down the road.

[formflier]

3.  In an ideal world NL and his wife would discuss the issue and come to some understandings.  NL has already said his wife can't be trusted to hold her end of a deal, but the real purpose is for her to agree to what NL already plans to do (i.e. above).  Even a small agreement might prevent some problems down the road.

So...one of the hallmarks of my relationship that used to drive me bonkers (and still stirs me up) is someone that abrogates agreements (like FFw).

As a basic statement/question...should you make an agreement with someone that abrogates agreements?  Perhaps better asked, should you expect a person that abrogates agreements to NOT abrogate them and also, how should you react when they do abrogate an agreement.

I've kinda organized this issue in my mind to be more of a "conversation" as opposed to a "contract". 

Might be better to focus on what your pwBPD is trying to accomplish that to focus on "safety of the child". 

Sort of a "oh well sure you will be a better parent after a run, alone time or whatever she is off to do and then kind of add an "of course kids are welcome over here" or "i can stop by"

Then let's say this happens 10 times in a month and they are left alone 5 or 6 times.  That's better than being alone 15 times.

Very frustrating.  I just don't see a "one and done" solution.  At least I haven't experienced one in my relationship with this type of thing.

And...for the record my stuff has included actual illegal activity such as FFw directing one child to drive and put passengers in a vehicle that state statute explicitly forbids, although thankfully instances like that are rare.

Best,

FF

[Fian]

Conversation sounds like a good approach.

[Skip]

Might be better to focus on what your pwBPD is trying to accomplish that to focus on "safety of the child".  

Sort of a "oh well sure you will be a better parent after a run, alone time or whatever she is off to do and then kind of add an "of course kids are welcome over here" or "i can stop by"

Then let's say this happens 10 times in a month and they are left alone 5 or 6 times.  That's better than being alone 15 times.

This is a constructive action and a healthy way to look at these things.

I think it will help to think in terms of what falls within parental prerogative when there is a divorce.

Certainly a name or religion change, a major surgery, or adoption should be a joint decision and rarely falls within parental prerogative - both parents need to have a say and either compromise or get a third party to make the call.

But what about the long term boyfriend/girlfriend staying overnight - to pick a hard one. Does one parent have the right to make this call in their home? Does the other parent have a right to meddle in this (with the ex or the kids)? In a healthy situation, is this parental prerogative?

I think this is where the courts and CPS give a wide birth to parental prerogative to the dismay of many parents who want to influence the other parents behavior. The courts have come to this based on the simple observation that parents who don't have the wherewithal to work things out in marriage certainly won't have that skill in divorce and the cure (asking them to work it out) is likely more damaging than the issue at hand.

Custody agreements often define joint decisions very narrowly and parental prerogative very broadly. This custody agreement is still forming. Should it deviate from the norms? How?

[Enabler]

Morning all, thanks for all your contributions here, sorry for the delay in responding but I had Christmas here then stayed with my sister for a few days to allow W to stay here with D12.

So small update. D7 and D10 were left alone again last week, this time for a haircut for a couple of hours. D10 mentioned that W had specifically said to contact her first before contacting me to which I said "great".

So, I don't know if anyone else does, but I see nuance in what "calling Dad" looks like. Clearly there's the example where D10 rings NL, tells NL she's alone and NL rocks round there at breakneck speed and says "D10 and D7, W should never ever leave you alone in the house, she is a bad person and clearly doesn't love you". I think we can all agree that is very damaging. Then there's an example of D10 rings NL, tells NL she's alone and NL says "You okay with that? Let me know if you need me for anything, this is my plans for the next few hours, I'm here if you need me". Even this latter example has nuance as well... D10 is a child, she can't necessarily do all adult things so she has limitation, but she can stretch and learn to have confidence in her ability to stretch herself to be more competent, I get that, and I encourage that when she is here as well. I typically encourage my children to problem solve with support (if they ask for it) rather than problem solve for them. I would much rather act as 'coach'. D10 knows this and is keen to have independence so will usually reel off a list of things she's done to mitigate her circumstances in the process of asking for help or guidance. She knows I won't just jump.

So lets assume D10 reaches the bounds of her childish capability, it's not an emergency but it's more than she can/should deal with. Who's lane is it to intervene on D10's behalf to do "adult things"? Grandparents? I am clearly a backstop somewhere in the hierarchy, but where?

With regards to parental prerogative, my personal opinion would be that as long as it's within the broad bounds of social norms then it has to be allowed to slide... as uncomfortable as that might be. I believe we have unequivocally confirmed that D7 being left with D10 is not within the broad bounds of what is agreed to be socially or professionally acceptable. I think you are also confusing matters by your example Skip. The example of boyfriends staying over would be an example of something my D's would be requesting i.e. they are requesting adult responsibilities, rather than the case of being left alone where they have not requested responsibility and in the example of D10 looking after D7 have verbalised they definitely DO NOT want adult responsibility. As much as I do think parental prerogative is a very challenging ground to look forward to, there is a clear difference in my mind between moving a boundary because children have requested additional bandwidth and maybe THEY think they are mature enough, to forcing children to adopt more grown up behaviour through no choice of their own. Yes I do think this kind of herding behaviour has it's place when a child is not effectively adopting age appropriate responsibilities, but as per above, I think we've agreed that isn't the case. This isn't age appropriate. I also see difference in as much as this is not a "public" decision. My W would be socially embarrassed (family, friends, employer, church) if it were known that she left D7 with D10 for several hours. This isn't a rational choice, this is a swerve. Allowing D's to drink at a party at 14 or have a boyfriend to stay at 14/15 would be public. It might be considered liberal by many but it would be a publicly known. D's would be able to freely tell whoever as "their choice" as well rather than knowing they need to keep it a secret.

This is a very difficult topic to navigate even excluding the complications of communication issues and someone who abrogates agreements. I appreciate that the marriage and certainly parenting in the marriage did not function and therefore I need to learn alternative ways to resolve these issues. My D's need to know they have support, they need a coach, and in certain circumstances they need a back stop. In certain circumstances they need specific support, but holistically they need support/coaching/back-stop in changing my W's behaviour to align her better to generally agreed social/professionally agreed norms. If my W is unreliable, what level of support/coach/back stop is appropriate... and if not me, who is the right person? That person needs to be effective.

NL

[Fian]

If my W is unreliable, what level of support/coach/back stop is appropriate... and if not me, who is the right person? That person needs to be effective.

Ideally you would discuss this with your wife and make plans that you can both agree.  If you can come to agreement, ideally you/your wife would be the first person your child calls in an emergency depending on who is watching the child at the time, and the other in case the first is not reachable.  Grand parents could be a second option if that was viewed by your wife as a better option.  If you don't have your wife's agreement on such things, I would not involve the grand parents.  Without an agreement, it won't solve anything, and just involves even more people in the drama.

[Skip]

holistically they [my daughters]need support/coaching/back-stop in changing my W's behaviour...

A more conventional, family oriented, solution might be to encourage D12 to stay with mom 2 days a week (not nights unless she is ready) and ask mom to try to do her errands on those days.

This is win for mom - it help rehbilitte her relationship with D12 - she  would snap it up. It's a win for D12 - she is pleasing both parents and getting them to work together and she being a hero in the family - and she gets to do it on her terms (not stay the night). It's a win for D10. It's a win for NL in that in mitigates your concerns about mom's occasional absences.

All this can be done in the spirit of family cooperation. It puts resentments aside, in favor of doing the best for the children.

There is no need for any of it to be judgemental or remedial.

[Enabler]

Thanks Skip and Fian,

Fian, agreements are not adhered to. Strong parenting ideals and idealistic plans come out of W’s mouth but are no sooner abandoned. A cornerstone of many of the issues are that things happen in the shadows where accountability is limited. My W would be reluctant to make grandparents second call (preferable for me to enable me to keep in my lane more) as it places a layer of accountability, someone ‘out of the shadows’ so to speak. My W would not be doing these things in the light where someone was able to hold her accountable.

Skip, D12 is not ready to enter W’s home let alone agree to babysit her siblings. I’m not sure you’re grasping the dynamic re my W leaving the kids. This isn’t due to lack of available time. D12 being available to babysit at specific times wouldn’t change the dynamic. At the moment the parenting plan is as follows:

D12 with me 100% nights, W has unrestricted access to D12 during her parenting time. D12 refuses to go to her home.

D7 & D10 - I pick up from school on Friday and keep kids till Tuesday. W picks up from school on Tuesday and keeps kids overnight. I pick up from school on Wednesday and keep kids till Friday. W picks kids up on Friday and keeps kids till Tuesday. I pick up Tuesday and keep overnight. W pick up Wednesday and keeps till Friday.

There is sufficient time when W does not have children to run errands. With the smallest modicum of planning and foresight things can be arranged for times when she doesn’t have the children. I can only guess what that time is filled with but I’m pretty sure it’s not used productively  to prepare for the time when she is restricted by the children. Your suggestion gives her more free time but it only goes to rescue W’s (now encouraging a child to rescue hmmmm!) lack of organisation. Do you think W is more or less likely to plan her time better if she knows that there are more periods of time where she can dump responsibilities on other people?

I’m also not sure what’s in this for D12? She no fool and being an unpaid babysitter of her siblings whilst mum swans around doing as she pleases at a whim will soon alienate her further. Although I don’t have full clarity from D12 as to why she refuses to go to W’s house, I’m pretty sure avoiding chaos is one of them. She doesn’t like surprises and craves certainty, I offer that clear concise level of predictability, I can say with certainty that there is no way on earth that D12 would knowingly walk into a situation that was the polar opposite and a distraction from her own interests.

Enabler/NL

[formflier]

This is a very difficult topic to navigate even excluding the complications of communication issues and someone who abrogates agreements. I appreciate that the marriage and certainly parenting in the marriage did not function and therefore I need to learn alternative ways to resolve these issues.  

New Life,

I think I just cross posted with NL's latest post.

I've been considering your threads and situation for a while.  The pain of realizing it's possible this is a "no win" situation with those your love the most (your children) is tough.  Many of us have been there.

I've been there and am there with someone that "abrogates agreements".  That's a term I've used for a while, so I took notice when you used it.

Can you pause for a moment and try on some "axioms" for size?  Please do this while wearing your "Dad hat".

1.  There is no good solution, but better is still better than status quo or even descending into worse.

2.  Leadership is often a thankless task, yet still has rewards when you know those you love are safer than before.

3.  As a Dad, we want to keep our kids out of as much drama/hurt/pain as possible.


4.  Investments in relationships take time (sometimes even long seasons) before you can harvest rewards.  (I'm a farmer so this comes fairly easily to me, yet others may have no background in this..where are you at on this?)

Therefore...

How can you move forward with solutions that let the kids involved have the best chance of "just being kids"?

How can you move forward with solutions that don't inflame (or perhaps even soothe) dysfunction that has existed in the parenting relationships?  

I'll hush for now.   After you read this a couple of times, does it feel like a new way to approach the issue?

Best,

FF

[Fian]

When I say discuss things with your wife, the point isn't to change her behavior, the point is to present a unified front on communication. Kids, your mom and I discussed this, and this is your emergency plan, you first call the parent of the house you are staying the night, then the other parent if the first is not available.

One other observation is you spend a lot of time thinking about what your kids want.  Why not say the following?  D12, I want you to watch D7 for the next few hours.  This will make D7 safer.  No, you don't get anything out of it, but don't you want D7 to be safe?

[Skip]

The old issue of leaving the kids (D10 and D7) at home on their own is cropping up again and again. 2hrs on Saturday to take D12 for a haircut and hang out with her here...

The issue that opened this thread with was that stbx wife left D10, D7 at home, during her parenting time, to be at your house to see D12 and to get D12's haircut. Her parenting time is complicated by the fact that two children stay at her house and one stays at your house and, of course,  CoViD-19.

I think the points made in this thread are two fold:

there are positive cooperative things you can do in the best interest of your children - but it means being positive, and prioritizing the kids over being judgmental and letting go of opportunities to embarrass, punish, and being deliberately unhelpful to stbx wife if you don't want to do that, then (parallel parent) stay out of it and let her work it out with the girls and her new life. the situation is new and it takes time for water will seek its own level, but it will.

Many psychologist would recommend to start with parallel parenting and as time goes on (maybe 12 months), start cooperating a little at a time as each parent earns it.

Right now, she is not earning anything with you. But at the same time, you aren't earning anything with her. She burned a lot of bridges when she started dating. You burned a lot of bridges when she separated and the girls needed you two to be a united front. There is likely more inevitable bridge burning coming as you do your financial settlement. It's going to take sometime to heel this. It's going to take some time to realize that the children having a healthy relationship with both parents is more important than the bickering and battles.

... the point is to present a unified front on communication. Kids, your mom and I discussed this, and this is your emergency plan, you first call the parent of the house you are staying the night, then the other parent if the first is not available.

Kids like structure and the like knowing the parents get along. This brings them grat peace.

How can you move forward with solutions that let the kids involved have the best chance of "just being kids"?

How can you move forward with solutions that don't inflame (or perhaps even soothe) dysfunction that has existed in the parenting relationships?  

Excellent questions to ponder.

[defogging]

Enter through the side door, not the front door.  Coach the kids up, teach them how to manage these situations.  If your situation is anything like mine, any words spoken with exPDw will fall on deaf ears, cause her to do more of the same, and leave the kids at home for longer times.  Trying to work it out with her opens the door to conflict.  Shut that door and solve the problem a different way.

Instead, give your kids the resources for what to do when Mom or Dad falls ill, has a heart attack or whatever.  Your kids are old enough to stay at home alone.  Teach them the skills they need to deal with it.  Parallel parenting means leaving your ex out of the equation when it's in your house.  It also means you're out of the equation at her house.  So, deal with it and give kids that are old enough to handle it the tools to handle it in either house.

Remember that parenting is a job you're supposed to work yourself out of.  At 18 your kids should be able to handle the world, your job is to teach them how to do that and leave you in the rear view.

[Enabler]

Thanks everyone for your inputs.

So, thinking about the points made above the solution appears to be 2 fold, teach skills and demonstrate more optimal behaviour. So this is where I see the balance or knife edge I'm trying to navigate. I would say that I am more inclined to push skills and independent behaviour than my average peers, I'm not suggesting I take D7 out to the woods to shoot an assault rifle but these things are all relative. Most things are a teaching/learning experience and I'm considerably more inclined to encourage the kids to 'do it themselves' when opportunities arise, even if it involves risk. A silly example that I can think of would be rather than having special child friendly cooking knives I teach and supervise the children how to cut safely with the razor sharp japanese chefs knives. As defogging quite rightly pointed out, parenting is a job I'm supposed to be working myself out of and I'd like to think I was setting the girls onto a healthy trajectory towards a flourishing independence. Risks always exist but it's a matter of how we learn to manage those risks (like holding your fingers in when using a chefs knife) that can vastly alter the outcomes.

The UK has now gone into it's 3rd wave of lockdown and as of today schools are closed, however yesterday schools were open and we were advised that we should minimise parental attendance at school and where possible our children should make their own way there and back. I took this as a good opportunity to work towards D7 taking herself too and from school. The plan was to progressively lengthen the distance D7 walked on her own and leave her / meet her further and further away from school... till such point she could do the whole journey herself and safely cross the couple of roads en-route. D7 was happy with this and embraced the opportunity for independence. It wasn't optimal but was necessary for the risk management of me, the staff at school and other parents. It was a bigger step than we might have taken with D10 and D12 at 7 but the situation meant it appropriate.

So, teaching can happen, does happen and will always happen. But the flip side of the knife edge is that there's one thing making big steps and taking risk and learning to manage that risk when there's a global pandemic (arguably out of any adults control) OR learning to use a knife because we like eating melon and to get melon it requires cutting i.e. D's want something so they're learning how to get it themselves, and there's another thing learning skills because someone can't get their act together enough to fulfil their role effectively. That doesn't sit right but clearly has to happen.

So the next point is modelling optimal behaviour. Saturday we get a Chinese takeaway, It's 5 mins drive away to the shop. I insist on taking D7 with me leaving D10 and D12 at home. D7 says to me, "why do I have to go with you, Mummy leaves me at home" to which I say "That's nice, I'm not okay with leaving you here, you're coming with me". So, from D7's perspective I've left her with the question of which parent is "right" and which parent is "wrong". If Daddy is right, Mummy must be wrong and leaving me at home is bad, if Mummy is right, Daddy must be wrong and Daddy is being strict taking me with him. If this were to be discussed with W she would likely agree D7 should go with the adult to the takeaway, so I am modelling optimal behaviour, but in practice D7 would likely be left by my W if D7 challenged her on it. Me demonstrating optimal behaviour highlights W's sub-optimal behaviour and forces D's to make a judgement call (which she will as she likes to put things in little boxes). Yes I agree with FF that leadership is often a thankless task and I'm not fussed about making D7 do what I (and my W) think is the right thing to do... but isn't this alienating my W by proxy?... "things are different here, you get to decide which one you think is good/bad... better/worse... loving/unloving." Actively or not that's what my actions are telling D.

How is me showing my D's optimal behaviour any different from me overtly highlighting sub-optimal behaviour if it result in the same thought process?

Enabler/NL

[Skip]

"things are different here, you get to decide which one you think is good/bad... better/worse... loving/unloving." Actively or not that's what my actions are telling D.

I know we talked a while back about taking a parenting course and you were not very receptive. I'd encourage you to revisit that, NL.

I will share this. After that Chinese takeout event, it is unlikely your 7 year old daughter is processing that event on the metrics of which parent is good/bad... which parent is better/worse... which parent is loving/unloving. That last thing any of your girls want to do is judge one parent over another. They want you two to get back together (which is not going to happen), and the next best step down, is that they want you two to like each other and function without conflict. If the two of you get along better apart, the will feel better off.

When others have suggested teaching the children to function well in mom's environment, they were talking about the very thing you did in teaching the children to walk to school alone. Specifically, there was talk of a teaching a safety plan. Teaching the children a safety plan for when they are home alone is good - they already understand safety plans from the fire drills or active shooter drills at school. This stuff is good leadership.

But its important to do it solely to make the girls safer. Period. Be very careful not to be "motivated by" or to "subtlety layer on" implications that mom was "less" because she did not teach them a safety plan. A steady diet of that will not be good for them.

Question: Why would you not leave the 7 year old alone with her two sisters while you took a five minute errand? Did you do it because you felt you D7 would not be safe with her two older sisters for 5 minutes?

Question: Why did you say something unsettling like "I'm not okay with leaving you here, you're coming with me", rather than something upbeat like, "I need your help to..." or "I would like your company" or "Lets go play I spy". Do you think D7 possibly saw this as being about her in some negative way?

Sometimes its easier to see these things if we flip them around. What if your wife reacted to D7 as the three girls were cutting cheddar cheese at her house with adult knives. She takes the knife away from D7, hands the D7 a nylon knife with a teddy bear on it. When D7 says, "why can't I use a real knife like my sisters, Daddy lets me use real knives" your wife replies "I'm not okay with you using a real knife, you need to use a children's knife."  What do you think is going through D7's mind at that moment? A little confusion and on to the cheese sandwich? Feelings of a personal reprimand or lack of trust? The realization that NL is reckless with knives?

[worriedStepmom]

I've had to deal with several situations where mom and dad disagree on how to parent.  We present it as "dad gets to make the rules at his house.  mom gets to make the rules at her house.  This is the rule here."

There are no judgement words.  No "appropriate/inappropriate" or "wrong/right" or any adjectives at all.

I like this language because it reinforces that each parent is in charge and that we are equal.

[formflier]

New Life,

I'm still getting to know you, yet I'm starting to believe that you and I are similar in that details matter...GREATLY...to us, especially on matters of safety.

One of the lessons I have had to work really hard on over the years is to "stop looking at the trees" and "step back and look at the expanse of forest.  Basically...get out of details and stay big picture.

I'm curious what you think about the following.  

I will suggest that if there is a focus on "safety", there is an implicit message that your pwBPD is "unsafe" or "potentially unsafe".  I can't imagine that going over well and suspect your pwBPD will act out.  Kind of a self fulfilling prophecy.

I will also suggest that if the focus shifts to "supporting Mom" or "listening to Mom" or "being a better big sister"...etc etc, it's less likely that people involved will be triggered and the chances that your children will actually be safer go way up.

Two questions.

Can you follow my logic?

What do you think will be the result if you focused on this for 6 months or so?

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

Question: Why would you not leave the 7 year old alone with her two sisters while you took a five minute errand? Did you do it because you felt you D7 would not be safe with her two older sisters for 5 minutes?

Because consistency in message is important. For now the consistent message I would like to reinforce is that D7 is not left in the house without some sort of adult supervision. Why? Well among other reasons, conflict arises in continually negotiating which instances are instances where D7 needs to come with me and which instances she can stay here with D10 and D12. There are many many many areas of my parenting where I have first attempted to create a foundation of consistency and once that foundation has been formalise we then move forward in a clear consistent manner. Chaos is what prevailed before and ALL D's expressed discontent with inconsistency. Moving to a foundation of consistency first has bought calm and less chaos to the home... such as "No one gets down from the dinner table until we've all finished dinner". The rules have laxed now and there are reasons to get down from the table but, on the whole people stay at the table until dinner is over... less chaos, fewer arguments, dinners are eaten rather than distractions taking precedence, better conversations between us. What I learnt was that if there wasn't a consistent framework, the children would make up their own rules.

So... when consistency has been achieved new things will be added.

Question: Why did you say something unsettling like "I'm not okay with leaving you here, you're coming with me", rather than something upbeat like, "I need your help to..." or "I would like your company" or "Lets go play I spy". Do you think D7 possibly saw this as being about her in some negative way?

Because it was honest and consistent. BS promotes a lack of trust and is manipulative. BS is an invitation to negotiate "I don't want to play I Spy", "I don't want to help you". This is not negotiable. I am clear and honest with my communication. I am very sure D7 saw this being about her and saw it being about her being 7 years old. She knows that certain things happen as a function of age or become negotiable at a certain age.

Regarding the knife point, yes I can utterly appreciate that might be the case, and my W might object to that. I am happy to discuss that with my W and be consistent that the children using the sharp knives is okay since they have been trained to use sharp knives. I would be happy to have that conversation with friends, family, the vicar and a social worker as well. I am not certain my W could have the same consistent conversation with me... or the head teacher at the school she works at about leaving D7 with D10. D7 doesn't use the sharp knives unless I'm holding her hand training her.

worriedStepmom, I too use the line of "different rules in Dad's house", however even without being explicitly negative about the rules in my W's house there is an implicit assumption by the children that since we're not aligned I must think my way is better... and I'd refute the argument that children don't want to judge or weigh up difference... they very very much do and are verbal about it. It's not something I am concerned with (being implicitly negative) but wondering if I should be.

FF, who's responsibility is it to be better at supporting / listening / communicating? An adult, or a child? My W is not diagnosed with any medical disorder. For the children to provide "special" behaviour i.e. treat differently to other adults they would need justification. Here's an example:
 - D10 -  "I'm furious Dad, Mum said she would be here at 15:00 and she's over 2 hours late! I've tried calling her and messaging her and she ignores me"
- Me -  "Maybe she's stuck in prison doing her voluntary work, she won't have her phone with her in there?"
 - D10 -  "For 2 hours? She's a volunteer, she can just leave when she needs to. She's never on time and we end up waiting around for her for hours!"

W is consistently late, consistently disappoints the kids (and me) with time keeping and not just 10-15 mins but hours late. In this instance I attempted to provide excuses for Mum's delay on to be met by very very very reasonable and rational responses. What reasons are there to cut Mum more slack than other adults (support Mum)? At what point do I allow the children to freely decide what they support and what they don't support. At what point am I just encouraging them to support hurtful behaviour?

Enabler/NL

[formflier]

FF, who's responsibility is it to be better at supporting / listening / communicating? An adult, or a child? 

All of the above have the responsibility.  I don't believe it's an either or thing.

How do think about this?

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

I would say that a parent has a responsibility to be supportive / listen / communicate effectively towards children, and if they do that they will help better provide for their children's needs.

I think it is good for children to gain listening and communication skills not least to ensure they have their needs met and understand the needs of the rest of the family. I think if they grow to have spare capacity it's great for them to use some of that capacity to support the family in general. I wouldn't say they have a responsibility to contort around their parents dysfunction or excuse them. Many members here are the products of that kind of contortion around their parents needs rather than the other way round.

[worriedStepmom]

FF, who's responsibility is it to be better at supporting / listening / communicating? An adult, or a child? My W is not diagnosed with any medical disorder. For the children to provide "special" behaviour i.e. treat differently to other adults they would need justification. Here's an example:
 - D10 -  "I'm furious Dad, Mum said she would be here at 15:00 and she's over 2 hours late! I've tried calling her and messaging her and she ignores me"
- Me -  "Maybe she's stuck in prison doing her voluntary work, she won't have her phone with her in there?"
 - D10 -  "For 2 hours? She's a volunteer, she can just leave when she needs to. She's never on time and we end up waiting around for her for hours!"

Nope.  It's not your job to make excuses for mom.  With this conversation you are still part of the drama triangle, interfering with their relationship (even though this is a benign way), and you are also invalidating D10.  This type of outburst from D needs to be met with validation.  Ask her more about *her* feelings.  Ask if she wants coaching on how to talk to mom about her feelings or if she just wants to vent. 

My kids complain about their dad sometimes.  I *always* direct it back.  "Have you told Dad about that?  / How does that make you feel?  / Do you want to tell me more about it?" 

And they do notice that the rules are different in the two houses and make judgement calls.  The important difference between my method and yours is that they are using their own judgement, not mine.  They most likely infer my opinions, but they have to figure out for themselves what they want to believe.

[Enabler]

The important difference between my method and yours is that they are using their own judgement, not mine. 

Wow wow wow, D10 and D12 are not inferring my judgement, nor as some might lead you to think am I imparting my judgement on them, I don't think I have implied that... others here may have suggested that. In the case of D7 being left alone, I do not like that but neither do the kids and have never been pro it. Ironically my W is the only one that has threatened the kids that "If she has to leave them on their own and Dad finds out, Dad will call social services and they'll be taken away".

Others would seem to suggest (so I understand it) that I do make up some fudge/blag/BS to excuse my W's behaviours... and salve legitimate negative feelings my D's have about W's behaviours.

[formflier]

I would say that a parent has a responsibility to be supportive / listen / communicate effectively towards children, and if they do that they will help better provide for their children's needs.

I think it is good for children to gain listening and communication skills not least to ensure they have their needs met and understand the needs of the rest of the family. I think if they grow to have spare capacity it's great for them to use some of that capacity to support the family in general. I wouldn't say they have a responsibility to contort around their parents dysfunction or excuse them. Many members here are the products of that kind of contortion around their parents needs rather than the other way round.

What responsibility should children have?

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Others would seem to suggest (so I understand it) that I do make up some fudge/blag/BS to excuse my W's behaviours... and salve legitimate negative feelings my D's have about W's behaviours.

I'm curious what suggestions you have interpreted as such?  Can you share examples?

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

NewLife,

If you had to assign a number to the anger you feel in general toward stbx (with 1 being low and 10 being high), what might it be?

[Turkish]

Ironically my W is the only one that has threatened the kids that "If she has to leave them on their own and Dad finds out, Dad will call social services and they'll be taken away".

But mom is still doing this, yes?

[Enabler]

But mom is still doing this, yes?

That is correct. To be factually correct she wasn't doing it and making threats. Then started doing it and stopped the threats.

If you had to assign a number to the anger you feel in general toward stbx (with 1 being low and 10 being high), what might it be?

Great question. Specifically "Anger" I'd say I was 2 so pretty low. I would say that 3-4 years ago I'd have been a 7 about this kind of stuff but I'd say a couple of things have changed in that time. There's a degree of being able to see separateness not only in the relationship but in parenting. For want of a better word 'the parenting' was once enmeshed so her actions and behaviours were a reflection of 'our' parenting so I would be angered by the fact that 'we' were doing stuff to the kids. Secondly the children now also see us as both as separate parents, they can differentiate between us both, and frankly her failings push the children closer to me... which is my point about implicit negatives.

If I look at this emotions wheel, I'd say I've moved from the right side (anger)  to the left side (surprised). You might argue that I am in the disgusted part of the pie but I don't feel that way. It's more of a perplex feeling of "What the heck is motivating you to do these silly things?"
 
https://allthefeelz.app/static/feelz/pdf/emotion_wheel_pdf__allthefeelz_dot_app.pdf

What responsibility should children have?

From what I understand there should be a transition from being a baby to an adult. Babies have everything done for them and are not expected to 'care' about anyone else. Adults are expected to care for their own needs and on the whole have capacity to care for others. Most adults are able to "trade" or offer for free this spare capacity in exchange for other desirable things. "kids" sit somewhere in the middle of this transect on their path from being a baby to an adult.

So -

D7 - Starting to do more and more things for herself, clean teeth, put dirty clothes in the laundry to be washed, wash her hair by herself, brush her hair by herself. Needs pretty close attention academically. She is responsible for small parts of looking after herself.  

D10 -  Be pretty self sufficient on personal hygiene, be en-route to self sufficiency academically and home learning. Can make her own lunch but I wouldn't hold her to it if she's getting her timing mixed up. She's responsible for larger parts of looking after herself but still needs a lot of support in managing the finer details.

D12 - She's very self sufficient in managing large parts of HER needs. She needs guidance with financial management and larger purchase decisions. She needs guidance with regards to navigating the choices she has available to her. She is responsible for being considerate of others such as being home at a communicated time for dinner from a friends house after school. She is asked to help on occasions in respect to things that directly benefit her, or as learning opportunities, such as coming food shopping or preparing meals. I do not need D12 to help me, but it's a good transition to later developmental stages.

I don't think this is far off the mark as to where each of them should be at this stage. At no point do I think it's ever a child's (<16) responsibility to systematically compensate for a parents failure to meet both the parents needs and the children's, however it's great if they did on occasions for a missed catch (not systemic). However, I also accept that it is fact of life for many children. I still see a difference between asking a child to do something as a learning opportunity i.e. I could easily food shop on my own, and asking them to take responsibility because another 'responsible' adult CHOOSES to neglect their responsibilities.

Enabler/NL

[formflier]

Thanks for your thoughtful response about responsibility.

I think that's the place you build.  

Let's speak plainly for a minute.  Evaluate whether or not you or your pwBPD is more qualified to teach/coach/motivate your children to learn/demonstrate/accept more responsibility.

It's ok, there is not a shadow of a doubt in my mind who is more qualified, more thoughtful about responsibility.  You are.  That is one of those "it is what it is" things.  

I'm hoping that somehow that we can encourage and guide you to focus PRIMARILY on "developing responsibility" in your kids.  EVEN IF it's coming at a faster pace than you think is wise or even safe.

Clarity:  I'm not suggesting you deliberately pick unsafe things to do in order to develop responsibility in your children.  I am suggesting that there are going to be lots of situations where you have little or no choice, that your comfort level with safety will be exceeded AND  that in most of those situations the greater good will come from you focusing on developing your responsibility in your kids.

You know yourself best...does this seem like a productive path?

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

FF,

That was very nicely put. That certainly frames things more comfortably.

Now, with that idea fresh in my head, at what point does the amount of training I offer them to take on excessive responsibility (that I might be uncomfortable with and might feel is unsafe) become irresponsible?

I am suggesting that there are going to be lots of situations where you have little or no choice, that your comfort level with safety will be exceeded AND  that in most of those situations the greater good will come from you focusing on developing your responsibility in your kids.

I would guess that our Children will also not be comfortable in these situations. How comes my W is the only one who seemingly gets to be comfortable whilst the rest of us walk on eggshells around her, taking on additional (and before the children's time) responsibilities, whilst my W sheds hers? Isn't that Enabling? Albeit it does seem like the only option given.

Enabler/NL

[Fian]

I would argue that your wife is not comfortable.  She is doing what she wants, but she also suffers the consequences.  Being selfish does not mean you have a great life.

[formflier]

Now, with that idea fresh in my head, at what point does the amount of training I offer them to take on excessive responsibility (that I might be uncomfortable with and might feel is unsafe) become irresponsible?

 

A wise question, and one of those "you know it when you know it" and most likely will only "know it in hindsight." 

I think I'm getting on your wavelength, so let's talk a bit about axioms.  And let's talk "Dad to Dad".

Why use axioms?  Well...we  are Dads and are "supposed to be" the big tough ones, the example of strength and all that. 

Yet...just between us Dads, it's ok to admit that underneath all that we would really love to bubble wrap our children, the most precious thing in the world to us.  But wait..there is more..

As I read this you have 3 daughters...   Hey man..I get it.  I've got 4 of them (4 boys and 4 girls).  There is a different way a Father looks at/worries about/expresses concern about his daughters.

OK..saying all this to say it's solid to admit there are STRONG emotions involved.  Furthermore use axioms so that emotions of the moment don't contribute too much.

1.  You are going to make some calls you wish you could do over.  (I've lost count)

2.  Your children are likely more resilient than you realize.  When your calculated risks don't go they way you plan (see axiom 1)...rest in axiom 2 and just love your kids.

Last...I'm a military guy and perhaps this last axiom will help you to smile and chuckle.

3.  If your plans are going according to plan...you should be worried, you've missed something.

The "plan" is what you use as a measuring stick. 

"Oh wow, D10 was so much more responsible than I figured she would be."

Take those data points and make deliberate..slow adjustments to the plan over time.

You've got this!

Best,

FF

[Skip]

Isn't that Enabling? Albeit it does seem like the only option given.

You may be confusing enabling with interventing.

Enabling is deeply caring for someone and trying to help and supporting them and in the process, helping facilitate some self-destructive behavior.

Interventing is the interference in the affairs of another for the purpose of compelling them to do or forbear doing certain things.

What is being talked about here is not enabling

...	its about "helping and supporting" the children within your domain. Inevitably, your wife is bound to get some collateral benefit of those actions, true. The opposite would be to try to control and punish your wife. Inevitably, your children will suffer collateral damage.

Which sounds better to you?

Your wife is dissolving the marriage and is seeking sovereignty. She is trying to break away. It's a big transition for the both of you. You're struggling to accept/respect her independence/sovereignty and adopt healthy boundaries.

Think of it this way.

You have no control over the police. You teach your children to best function within their rules.

You have no control over the school. You teach your children how to best function within their system.

You have no control over the sports coaches. You teach your children to best function in their environment.

You have no control over colleges. You teach your children to best function in their environment.

In all of the above cases, you wouldn't give a thought to enabling or to intervention with these entities. You accept their sovereignty and you teach your children to navigate it for their best outcomes.

It's kinda where you need to be with the other parent when there is a divorce.

If the school lets D7 ride a bike without training wheels, is it better for you to make D7 use them at your house to preserve your feelings of consistency or  and let her ride without training wheels and preserve hers?

In an ideal world, it would be best for your seven old to have 100% adult supervision. No one can argue that. But the reality is that mom is going to leave the kids alone in short bursts. You have to decide if this is a hill to die on (call CPS) or just a less than ideal situation that you need to teach them to be best prepared for.

[Enabler]

Skip,

You and I must live in different worlds. The world that I live is accountable and there are ways to influence (on the whole) upwards, downwards and sideways. Taking one of your examples:

You have no control over the school. You teach your children to best function within their system.

The school has a 2 way dialogue with the parents. There are parents evenings where the teachers and parents meet with each other and discuss progress, that is a genuine 2 way process. There is a board of governors made up of elected (by parents) adults, some of which are parents. These people direct the schools management and 'control' it. I have had the opportunity to nominate myself for these roles. The school is regulated by OfSTED which is the government agency tasked with oversight of schools in the UK. When OfSTED do an inspection the parents are sent a questionnaire and asked for feedback and any specific information, I can influence here. If I had any specific concerns about something at the school I could approach the headmaster and he is obliged to be accountable to me. If he doesn't take my concerns seriously or my concerns are serious enough I have an array of other choices to influence control. I could put my concerns to OfSTED, I could put my concerns to the police or I could remove my D's from the school and place them in another school. I could even choose to home school my kids if I chose to. I am not helpless in the situation and have control over my children's education.

The fact is that I am content that the system is well designed, honed by many decades of teaching experience and school management. I have confidence that "the system" is better placed than I am to know how best to teach my children and I have certainty that IF I were to have concerns, those concerns will be dealt with effectively, because each person in the system is accountable, in part, to me. I have confidence that the system is self learning and has appropriate feedback loops.

I teach my children to have respect for the systems they work in and get as much as possible from the system as they can. This typically means going with the system not against it because the system is well designed and as mentioned has feedback loops for improvement. However, I teach my children that they are part of that system and as such they can contribute to the system to promote change and they are not helpless and can take some control over how the system works for them.

In all your examples I can see how I have some control yet not complete control, myself and my children have the ability to influence and actually take control if we were to believe that working with the system was seriously detrimental to our health or broken. You say:

Your struggling to accept/respect her independence/sovereignty and adopt healthy co-parenting or parallel parenting boundaries.

Firstly I do not have no issues at all accepting my W's rite and request for sovereignty (the authority of a state to govern itself or another state.) You are right though, I do not respect how she is governing "her people". I accept and acknowledge that I have no authority with which to directly dictate how she governs hence the original dilemma. My W is not truly independent, putting the financial elements aside, we share childcare responsibilities, something she is very clear about. She is very clear that I am responsible for them whilst in her care as well as my own. I am not not prepared to form a co-parenting alliance with my W, and would if the environment was appropriate to do so... but it doesn't seem sensible to form an alliance with someone who systematically reneges on agreements and frequently uses any agreement to negatively impact me and my relationship with the kids.

I would like to be in a position where I can teach the children how to work with the domestic system they're in, but empower them to influence that system to work better for them and confront that system when it's failing them. I haven't sufficiently resolved whether or not I should be working on their behalf to influence or confront the system for them... and by not doing so I a allowing the system to disadvantage them (enabling).

Enabler/NL

[Enabler]

FF,

If I'm honest the plan (high level) is effective bar snags like this issue. That said, I don't know whether success is a result of any plan I might have made, or a handful of random events that have resulted in positive things falling in my lap.

That said, part of the plan is to be prepared to snaffle opportunity like a truffle pig, as and when it comes along.

Also, whilst being honest I would say that although I fear my own regret (I have too many to count as well), I fear condemnation from others more (on specific topics I've put effort into)... which is odd because typically I'm not the guy who cares what others think. But, maybe I am more sensitive to being told I am "bad" or "wrong" (on specific topics) and have a more fragile ego that I thought. Specifically if I was to pin-point it I do not like being accused of intentionally causing harm to others, probably because I go to a lot of effort to avoid that.

Enabler/NL

[Harri]

This topic has reached it's post limit and is at a good place to close it.

Thanks to everyone who participated.