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Author Topic: Am I the Crazy One  (Read 467 times)
cleotokos
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« on: January 14, 2021, 02:47:49 PM »

I don't think I am but after 13 years the gaslighting can get to you. Often I read down the list of abusive behaviors and find that my actions check some of the boxes. How can we think through these "grey" situations? Ie. my H says I am financially abusive to him because financial abuse includes "making your partner ask for money". He needs to ask me for money because he can't hold a job (he inevitably tries to dominate his superiors, or treats those he perceives as inferior poorly and gets fired). In addition, I don't always know when he might have a bill due. He contributes towards household finances when he does have an income, but that isn't often, especially since having kids. He told me once he expects me to transfer x amount to his account every month, and since I don't and he has to ask for it, I am being financially abusive to him.

A couple of weeks ago he was verbally/emotionally abusing me for around 5 minutes in the kitchen. I was doing my best to stay calm. He was saying the most nasty things and our kids were in earshot. I was wiping the counter with a cloth and he told me to get out of the kitchen. I said no, and he grabbed the cloth and wrestled it from my fist. I was so, so angry. I felt so violated! I saw the coffee he had just made himself sitting on the counter, and my only thought was I wanted to take something from him, and that was all I could think of to "take". I grabbed the cup and turned around and smashed it in the sink. I screamed something horrible at him (in the vein of what he had just been saying to me). Am I being abusive by my reaction? The look of utter shock on his face...like he is surprised when other people have feelings. I guess you could say I was triggered when he got physical like that.

He tries to act like the way he treats me is ok, because sometimes I am not as strong as I try to be and I react in kind. Therefore, we both do it, he doesn't have a problem, "we" have a problem. I am not a victim and he an aggressor.
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ForeverDad
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« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2021, 05:39:21 PM »

Yes, it really is Gaslighting.  You really are the victim or target.  Your concerns that you've been reacting in disordered ways is due to your situation.  If you were in a normal relationship you would not be doing anything disordered-seeming.  Thus you can rest assured you've been experiencing situational behaviors, not your natural own.

In a manner of perspective, that you are asking whether you're the crazy one is an indication that you aren't.  Not proof of course, but a solid inference.  And of course not proof that the abuser / accuser / manipulator would accept.  Our experience has been that people determined to abuse, accuse, manipulate or blame seldom change their outlook, otherwise their power and entitlement will be weakened.
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livednlearned
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« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2021, 03:35:14 PM »

Maybe it's become a high-conflict relationship ...

https://www.amazon.com/High-Conflict-Couple-Dialectical-Behavior-Validation/dp/157224450X

It can happen when we don't understand how our emotions (and their's) work in the relationship. We become reactive instead of responsive.

With the kitchen conflict, how often does something like that happen?
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cleotokos
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« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2021, 11:28:42 AM »

ForeverDad, your response has me in tears. Thank you - as much as I know intellectually what is going on, my feelings seem to get confused. It's a relief to have an outsider verify my experience. I don't talk about the situation with my family because I don't want to stress/upset them.

livednlearned, I get the sense that his experience of his parents relationship, and his relationships with them, and between his sibings, were high conflict. I've come to believe that he thinks getting an emotional reaction from me is reassuring to him that he matters in some way to me or that he's important. I used to cry when he insulted me until one day he accused me of "crying on purpose" just to make him feel bad. Since that day I have never, ever let him see that he has hurt me again. I suppose I bottle it up now, and it occasionally comes out in the form of me smashing a cup - no I have never reacted angrily like that before. The other time I exploded was probably about 2 years ago, he was verbally abusing me and I just started shouting back at him everything he was saying to me, and everything he ever had said to me. Piece of sh*t, disgusting, I hate you, things like that. Afterwards he took our two kids upstairs and I could hear him sobbing for 10 minutes! For me saying to him the things he says to me! I've never in my life spoken like that to anyone, nor thought those words about anyone. They only were in my mind and came out my mouth because he's said it to me so many times. I hate that I spoke those words about anyone but in the moment it felt like self defense - and it did make him stop, and it did hurt him, clearly.

I wouldn't say our relationship is high conflict, it comes and goes in waves where he might be happy for weeks or months, then he goes into one of his angry states and is suddenly accusing me of ruining his life (but no specifics on how I have done that - just that he was "headed up" when he met me and now he isn't). This usually isn't preceded by any kind of conflict or disagreement between us, it just seems he ruminates for a time and decides I am woefully insufficient. There is never anything specific other than made up or imagined things, like I left something unplugged just to bother him, put the dishes away incorrectly just to bother him, put the recycling in the bin in a disorganized manner just to bother him. When he's in this mood he is constantly trying to start conflict with me, I can't believe the energy he goes to. I have said to him that I think he is just picking fights, when I realized that was going on some years ago, and since then I am mostly able to disengage and appear neutral. I don't even like to let my tone get too passionate which would probably be normal in other relationships, because once he picks up that I have even a slight emotional response, he starts doing things to try and increase that like talking over me, saying things that are outright false or exaggerated, and escalating to name calling, shouting, swearing. Because I don't react most times he's taken to calling me a psychopath and autistic and saying I have no feelings. I don't know how conscious he is of what he's doing (trying to bait me) but I feel like he can't conceive of human relationships being any different. Except, he is mostly very good with our kids, which tells me he does actually know how you should treat people. They are very young now and I'm afraid this may change as they get older, particularly when they're teenagers.
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« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2021, 05:17:23 AM »

the internet will tell you anything and everything is abusive.

heres the thing.

its a less than ideal situation that you have an impulsive and financially irresponsible partner. my mother did, too. and there are steps that not only should, but need to be taken, when you love someone who is that way.

ideally, those steps should be taken in harmony, in compromise, and not in a punitive way.

achieving that can be a great example of "easier said than done", can require a lot of effort, can require more than one conversation, and can include your partner railing against you, not always fully cooperative even where they agreed before. but in general, its what you want to shoot for.
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Fian
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« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2021, 08:06:47 AM »

I am the sole breadwinner in my family.  My wife is a housewife.  We both like it that way.  She has access to all my credit cards and checking accounts so she doesn't have to ask me for money, but there is an understanding that we discuss big purchases.  Based on our Christian beliefs, I am the head of the home so I do have veto power, but in practice we don't make any big purchases unless we both agree (that goes with her not agreeing to my purchases too).

In my mind, this is a healthy dynamic in a marriage relationship.  It works because we are both responsible for money, and we have established trust.  I would view it as unhealthy if I used my power of the purse to punish her for decisions that I don't like.
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cleotokos
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« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2021, 04:29:21 PM »

Hi Fian, I feel like it's one thing if partners have agreed to such an arrangement. I would have loved to be a stay at home mother, when I was going to the office. He made a lot of promises before having kids regarding going to work properly and working out the issues that caused him job loss in the past. Part of me suspected nothing would change - what I didn't expect was for things to change for the worse. Maybe I should have seen that one coming, but I didn't. He complains a lot about being a "stay at home dad", using it as his excuse not to be able to find a job. He also wants to be glorified for it. He acts like it's a favor he's doing me, because otherwise I'd have to pay for daycare, so he's saving me money (like the kids are entirely my responsibility, anything he does is a bonus). It doesn't matter that I present solutions like finding daycare, or the fact that now that I work from home, there is nothing preventing him from going to work, which he claims to want to do. My workplace has become very flexible and understanding and it would not be a problem. I never agreed to be the sole breadwinner so he could stay home and take care of the kids - some days I felt like they might be better off in daycare and would have anxiety all day when I went to the office, because I didn't know what was happening at home or what mood he was in. I feel betrayed by him, tricked into this situation. He doesn't do a fraction of what I did when I was on mat leave. If I bring it up he says that since I got paid to be on mat leave, it was therefore my "job" to do everything. This is far from an equal partnership in any way.

Once removed, I'm not sure that there's any love left. The paranoia and the accusations are too frequent and too hateful. I have no desire to hurt him or take revenge, in fact that's what my uBPD mother did taking us away from our father so that is a very sore spot for me and makes it much harder for me to see clearly. My mother attempted to sabotage my relationship with my father, told me she didn't think fathers were really needed at all so it was no big deal. So I'm hyper conscious of trying to make sure I'm not doing anything to hurt their relationship like that. I think my parents divorce really, really affected my life negatively. I don't want that for my kids. I don't want to do anything to hurt my husband either, even if maybe I don't love him, I don't hate him either.
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livednlearned
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« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2021, 04:54:59 PM »

I get the sense that his experience of his parents relationship, and his relationships with them, and between his sibings, were high conflict


It sounds like a competitive family structure that he is replicating (win-lose dynamic). People with BPD traits often want what we all want but tend to go about it in the wrong way. Creating a cooperative family structure (protecting the health of the family for the benefit of everyone) isn't something he is familiar with and for you, getting there will be like turning a boat with a first mate on board who is hell bent on staying the course. I found in my relationships with BPD members I had to stop working harder and start working smarter, and even though it got easier it was never easy.

Go easy on yourself for blowing up. You've held a lot in and it's human for resentment to grow when you're holding so much in. In fact, giving yourself a break here might be crucial so there aren't two of you in the marriage picking on you.

I remember a phrase in one of the books I read about forgiving without trust, where you pardon the person for past transgressions without relaxing your defensiveness. Sometimes that's the first foot forward in healing conflict with someone who has BPD traits. At the very least, it can help prevent things from getting worse while you sort out what you want to do.

I'm willing to bet there's quite a history for you to reach the point you're at with finances. Is this the biggest source of conflict for you both?
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cleotokos
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« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2021, 08:34:33 PM »

livednlearned, "competitive" is the word that's been in my head lately. I don't understand why he constantly picks fights over nothing. I've felt like he just tries to dominate me, and that he functions as if you're either dominating others, or else they must be dominating you. I can only imagine he hasn't really known anything else. But he's not always like that. He doesn't tell me much about his family, and they immigrated when he was 13 so there is a language barrier and when his parents are present and there's conflict, they speak in their language so I really can't determine what the dynamics are. He's secretive about his upbringing other than to say there was terrible abuse, physical, verbal, emotional, and neglect. From the way he throws things I've told him back in my face during a fight I can guess that he thinks I would do the same to him and that's why he keeps it vague.

The biggest source of conflict has been finances and cleaning between us historically. Now that we have kids and I do far more cleaning than he does I don't hear a peep out of him about it. He used to act like he was a clean person because he "wanted" to live in a clean house, whereas I obviously did not "want" to live in a clean house because I didn't run around and clean up after him (but he would never admit that). Now I run around and clean up after him and the kids because I'm not going to let my kids live in a dirty house, and I like when things are reasonably clean. Those are more important to me than whether he is pulling his weight, because I've stopped expecting him to.

Finances have always been an issue - when we met I had just finished school, he was almost done. I had a little credit card debt, he had a ton. I have worked always, he did for the first 1.5 years. It's true I would buy things that I shouldn't, and so I felt it was not untrue when he'd say I had a spending problem, I shopped too much, etc. However he stopped working and didn't contribute towards our household. Many times I asked him how that was really different, how he can complain about me wasting money when he was refusing to contribute (at this time he was not even trying to find part time work during his summer break from school. I had helped him with expenses throughout his school year).

I doubled my salary since then, paid off all consumer debt, and no longer buy anything unnecessary. I buy the kids clothes when they need it. I buy myself clothes when I need it (basic mom clothes, nothing too interesting). We have a decent chunk I've put in investments for retirement and the kids schooling. But I still have to hear about how I "love to buy things", have a spending problem, etc. EVEN FOR GROCERIES. Like I bought pasta sauce at Costco and I didn't hear the end of it. He acts like I enjoy grocery shopping simply because it's "buying things". Every time he does it he comes back and complains and I say yeah, that's exactly how I feel about it. It's a chore. Not only does he not appreciate that I do it for our family, I constantly get in trouble like I'm some child incapable of making proper decisions about what to buy.

In the last couple years I've figured out this is a theme his parents fight about repeatedly. His mom buys something, his dad gets mad because they don't have a lot of money, his mom gets upset, flips out, throws the item out and then it's silent treatment from both ends.

I feel like since the kids have been born he's really ramped up this kind of behavior. He treats me with absolute contempt a lot of the time. I'm pretty sure he thinks he's got me trapped due to the kids, and he's not wrong. He used to reflect on his behavior, with a lot of prodding from me, but now he's always right and doesn't try to improve. I could document all the games he plays, I've been calling them his "long games" because he takes so much time to set me up for the kill. It would be quite a book.
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bendinthewind

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« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2021, 05:31:29 PM »

Oh it's just so sad to realize that I'm not the only one. What you say resonates so much with me (except some roles reversed) but the general feeling is familiar. The blame, the financial woes, the competitive feeling. Like, what the heck? We're partners, why this judgment and competition?

You are not the crazy one, even though those terms are hard to use ("crazy"...). You might feel that way! I know I do. "Did I just hear that right?" Geez. "What did he just say to me?" "Really?"

I've been with my partner for 15 years and honestly, while he is currently in the worst depression ever, I just realized that I don't think I'm capable of this. I don't feel like a quitter (I haven't quit yet!) but like someone who has been taking this crap for so long ... like a doormat, I feel your pain. With the husbands attitude, supporting them, with the immigrant parents, with the financial stresses and the blame. I'm sorry that you're going through this. It might sound pat, but I really do. Because I'm just as sorry that I'm going through this too. It's a relief to know I'm not alone but it's equally stressful and sad that it's the case.



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cleotokos
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« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2021, 01:17:18 PM »

bendinthewind, I'm sorry we're both in this. There's comfort we're not the only ones though because their striking similarities point to it being about them and not us. I don't think I can do this anymore either, nothing is changing for the better, he doesn't think he has any problem and in fact thinks I am the one that needs a therapist etc.
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Popsie

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« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2021, 03:03:32 PM »

I can really identify with so many of the things you've written.  In particular, I felt like i was going crazy for years until our marriage therapist finally told me she sees our dynamic so clearly and literally said, "what he is doing is crazy making for you."  It was such a relief to be "seen" and validated.

Like you, No points I ever make with my H are validated, my words used against me, I'm treated like like a liar, called hurtful names in front of the kids, looked at with contempt, made to do all the chores and run the house/ take care of kids plus work full time, etc etc.   

I also work so hard to not engage when these things happen but what triggers me the most is when I'm accused of "just wanting us to fight/ wanting him to loose his temper/ wanting us to get a divorce/ etc etc."    Those words just make me lose my cool completely and then i do what makes me feel the worst about myself: i stoop to his level!  Sometimes I yell at him that i've had enough or I slam the door.  But sometimes if he's really gone too far, I do the weirdest thing: instead of hitting him or calling him names, I hit myself in the head.  How messed up is that?  The only rational reason I can come up with why I choose this in that moment is that he is hurting me so badly that I want him to visually see the pain he is inflicting.  I've never admitted this "crazy" reaction of mine to anyone.  I'm so embarrassed about it.  Embarrassed for losing my temper and doing something that makes him look like the sane one.  So when you are feeling horrible about throwing the cup, I completely get it.

My H also mocks me or accuses me of faking it when I cry or tell him i feel scared.  The other night I actually made a secret video of him mocking me and watched it back and it was gut wrenching.  How did I end up with a man who treats me like this?  How can he treat the mother of his children with such contempt and disrespect?  He is supposed to protect me and the kids.  It actually makes me feel sick inside that I am trapped in this situation.  I am trying to work up enough courage to leave but he is the breadwinner.  I lost my job because I was dealing with all this for years.  I used to have a really good, high powered corporate job but then I had 2 kids and he was so unsupportive and treated me horribly and I became so anxious i couldn't make big decisions at work anymore.  So now in order to leave I need to find a way to earn money again which is really tough when you haven't worked for 4 years and are dealing with 2 young kids and an H that treats you so poorly.  I feel so trapped and scared.  (sorry, bit of a rant there, just had to get it out!)
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CoherentMoose
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« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2021, 03:45:59 PM »

 
Excerpt
I used to have a really good, high powered corporate job but then I had 2 kids and he was so unsupportive and treated me horribly and I became so anxious i couldn't make big decisions at work anymore.

Use this as a starting point.  You obviously are a capable person and can work your way out of this.  Slow and sure.  Find a way to start getting small wins and begin developing a plan to get to where you want to be.  I like to envision the end state, and then work backwards to where I am and identify small daily tasks.  Take control of the sail boat and start heading towards your destination.  Perhaps some small steps are to steps to getting legal help.  Or even things like starting to write the letter (or text) you will leave when you depart.  Of course, practice good OPSEC and find a way to document your plans somewhere where you are assured of privacy.  Don't take any chances.  One member in here had his wife break into the trunk of his car where he kept his copy of Walking on Eggshells and other materials that led to additional problems for him.  Also, find ways for self care somehow.  Just for you.  Even if it's something like a five minute bubble bath. 

Something just for you.  Use this forum and members in here to refine your plans as you move out towards creating your exciting new future.  CoMo
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Popsie

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« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2021, 12:14:51 AM »

Just a quickie,  Thank you so much for the words of encouragement.  Very much appreciate it, CoMo
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cleotokos
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« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2021, 05:28:54 PM »

Popsie, I could see it getting to a state where I'd hit myself, though it's never happened. I understand the drive to do something like that. In the moment sometimes it is so painful I'm just looking for anything that will make it STOP.

I took a 1 year mat leave, back to work for 5 months, then another 1.5 year mat leave. After the second one I was surprised at how much of my confidence had eroded when I returned to work. As much as there was no place I'd rather be than taking care of my children, it had its effect. I had to "fake it til you make it" at work and eventually, it did return. I hope it can be the same for you and I think it's quite a normal feeling after being out of the workforce a couple years (not to mention all the other BS we deal with at home).
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