How do I ask her to go? Or how can I explain people I'm not doing it yet?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I'm torn and I'm lost.

I'm living with a woman and her 2 kids. We've lived like a disfuctional family for 6 years. She and I haven't been a couple for many months and a very strange couple at that, you know the drill. I love her, and she suposedly loves me too, althought she refuses any romantic thought in her brain and rages over any sexual one. She's been very angry at me before just because she had a dream about me.

I have a job, a house and family. She doesn't have any of those things, and when I kick her out, she doesn't have a place to go and she turns into a social case and she can lose custody of the kids (14 and 9).

She's been telling me she's leaving from the 1st year. My response has been changing with each try. I begged her to stay, I worked in the RS, I gave up many things in my life to make room for her needs... Then I started saying that it wasn't what I wanted, but stopped asking her to stay. Because both options felt equaly depressing.

For some weeks now I can say with a broken heart that I want her (them) to go. It's painful to say it even to people who are begging me to tell her to leave.

She tells me they are in my house only until they can go somewhere else. And that they know they are not welcome. I feel this is real this time, I believed she wanted it each time before, but now I believe she's taking some steps to go. And I believe there's nothing good left to save. The kids benefit from me, but I'm not sure if they befefit from thinking I'm their father when I have no RS with their mother, and they have a biological father who's alive.

People tell me "stop thinking about their wellbeing, and think about yourself". Sure. But how do I do that? I can't bring myself to tell her to go when I know she has no place to fall to. But even if she did, I love her, I would go if it was her place. But I can't tell someone I love to go. When it kills me just to think about it.

I talked to an old friend yesterday and he told me many many times to stop waiting and kick them out today. It filled me with anxiety.

My conflict is that she is several different people. I can't bear to say bad things to the kind one, the deeply hurt one, the cheerful one, the dedicated mother one. But I can't live with the cinic, the constant complainer, the proud "I'm better than anyone" one, the paranoid... You know? When she's kind, she doesn't look like the same person that hurts me very often.  But, even the angry one, I'm not the kind of person that says "Go away!" But even the likeable ones, they don't want to be my girlfriend. And as a roomate, they don't pay a cent, and they complain too much, I feel I'm not welcome in my own house. She complains if I'm around, and she complains if I stay in my room.

In my head, makes sense to allow them to finish the school year. If they leave earlier, it's OK too. But I don't want them to leave in a hurry because I say it (after all I gave for this family). But I do have to talk to her about a deadline. Any tips about that? I've been living scared about her reactions for so long... She really hurts me when she paints me black.

I will welcome any thoughts, thanks.

[JoeBPD81]

I'm torn and I'm lost.

I'm living with a woman and her 2 kids. We've lived like a disfuctional family for 6 years. She and I haven't been a couple for many months and a very strange couple at that, you know the drill. I love her, and she suposedly loves me too, althought she refuses any romantic thought in her brain and rages over any sexual one. She's been very angry at me before just because she had a dream about me.

I have a job, a house and family. She doesn't have any of those things, and when I kick her out, she doesn't have a place to go and she turns into a social case and she can lose custody of the kids (14 and 9).

She's been telling me she's leaving from the 1st year. My response has been changing with each try. I begged her to stay, I worked in the RS, I gave up many things in my life to make room for her needs... Then I started saying that it wasn't what I wanted, but stopped asking her to stay. Because both options felt equaly depressing.

For some weeks now I can say with a broken heart that I want her (them) to go. It's painful to say it even to people who are begging me to tell her to leave.

She tells me they are in my house only until they can go somewhere else. And that they know they are not welcome. I feel this is real this time, I believed she wanted it each time before, but now I believe she's taking some steps to go. And I believe there's nothing good left to save. The kids benefit from me, but I'm not sure if they befefit from thinking I'm their father when I have no RS with their mother, and they have a biological father who's alive.

People tell me "stop thinking about their wellbeing, and think about yourself". Sure. But how do I do that? I can't bring myself to tell her to go when I know she has no place to fall to. But even if she did, I love her, I would go if it was her place. But I can't tell someone I love to go. When it kills me just to think about it.

I talked to an old friend yesterday and he told me many many times to stop waiting and kick them out today. It filled me with anxiety.

My conflict is that she is several different people. I can't bear to say bad things to the kind one, the deeply hurt one, the cheerful one, the dedicated mother one. But I can't live with the cinic, the constant complainer, the proud "I'm better than anyone" one, the paranoid... You know? When she's kind, she doesn't look like the same person that hurts me very often.  But, even the angry one, I'm not the kind of person that says "Go away!" But even the likeable ones, they don't want to be my girlfriend. And as a roomate, they don't pay a cent, and they complain too much, I feel I'm not welcome in my own house. She complains if I'm around, and she complains if I stay in my room.

In my head, makes sense to allow them to finish the school year. If they leave earlier, it's OK too. But I don't want them to leave in a hurry because I say it (after all I gave for this family). But I do have to talk to her about a deadline. Any tips about that? I've been living scared about her reactions for so long... She really hurts me when she paints me black.

I will welcome any thoughts, thanks.

[CoherentMoose]

Hello JoeBPD,
You're in a tough spot.  It appears you do not have a "safe space" to be able to get away to let your emotions settle.  You sound like the typical "nice guy" partner bending over backwards to help and being a "nice guy" is being used against you. 

It sounds like you're reaching a point where you need to protect yourself and, I hate to say it, be a little selfish and not fix her and her children's problems.  Consider thinking of it like you're preventing her from solving problems on her own and stifling her growth.  If you're truly just roommates and carrying the financial load, then evaluate what you are getting out of having to carry her and her family financially (and emotionally), what that cost means to your financial (and emotional) future and decide accordingly.   Good luck!  CoMo 

[ForeverDad]

Maybe you can have her leave and she'd do it.  Maybe.  But those days of dumping the furniture and belongings at the curb are probably long gone.  And in places like NYC* the occupant virtually rules the roost, not the owner.  You'd be wise to seek legal advice from a lawyer experienced with the legal aspects in your area.  If they've been with you for six years, it's not like they arrived last month and are still living out of their suitcases. If she turns nasty, you need to know what you can and can't do as well as how to calm things down so you're not stuck in a pickle predicament.

Be aware I'm speaking from a "protect yourself legally" standpoint.  What you need to do is take care of yourself.  This relationship, what it was and what it is, is dysfunctional and unhealthy.  I'd like to see you protect yourself both emotionally and legally, just in case she would raise a ruckus if she gets triggered.

* I've been in NYC, seen what goes down there.  Sometimes people leave quietly, sometimes it's hell on earth to get them out.  I've seen both.

[JoeBPD81]

Thanks a lot to both of you. It helps to be heard.

I was hoping for communication tips, applied to my situation.

Another factor is that she is always sick. She's anorexic, so her immune system is very weak, she has an ear infection right now, very painful. And the kids couldn't care less when she's sick, they scream and demand as usual, even when she's crying in pain.

Legally, we are renting the place together, she's in the contract. But the payments go to my account only. This is in Spain. If it was a matter of legally evicting her, it would be almost impossible due to minors being involved. Impossible to do it quick, that is. In time she would be forced, but it would take more than a year. This is not the issue. I could end the contract myself and go live somewhere else. And then she would be in trouble with the owner, but I would be legally free. I rather keep the place. But what's most important, I don't want to end our story as a family with a fight, least of all a legal fight. I wish this could end in understanding.

She wants to leave, I want her to leave, so let's find a way.

[ForeverDad]

I could end the contract myself and go live somewhere else. And then she would be in trouble with the owner, but I would be legally free. I rather keep the place.

Of those of us who ended their relationships, we faced one glaring reality... we didn't get our optimal outcome, or what we believed was optimal at that time.  We dreamed of closure, peaceful parting, not paying huge legal fees, not losing our residence, etc.  Sadly, those were dreams and wishful hopes.  So I ask, ponder this, what are your priorities?

Why is the least confrontational possibility, ending your contract and moving out after her next demand you leave, not a higher priority?  Sure, it's not what you want, you want to keep living there, but wouldn't most other alternatives be more difficult, higher tension and take longer?

As I wrote above, if there were a perfect time and perfect method, we all would have chosen it and be shouting it from the rooftops to others.

This not to say that you should ignore smart ways to set boundaries, communicate better and more.  There is so much to share.  Here is our Tools & Skills workshop board, browse the articles and determine which methods and strategies fit your needs.

[Lollypop]

Hi there Joe

I’m not sure if you remember me on the Parenting Board. I’m not on the forum so much these days as my life has progressed. I sought you out today as I was wondering how you were getting on. I always felt an emotional connection to you and your story. I worried about you and I think it’s because I have two sons.

I think of you as an extraordinary man who goes to great lengths to always do your best for your partner and her children. I found it difficult to read your posts a lot of times because, and I say this very gently, I didn’t see you prioritising your own needs. We all want the same things in life...to feel loved and be understood.

Even now, at this point of acceptance of break-up, you think of her and the safety of her children. Of course you do, because you care. But you must care for yourself too.

I think you’ve been given some great advice. Identifying YOUR  top few priorities will help you navigate these rough waters you’re in right now. This is about deciding on an exit strategy - your exit...because you cannot control your girlfriend. If she refuses to leave, then you must leave. One of you must be the adult.

You’ve asked for communication tips and this surprised me as you’ve always given good advice yourself.

Keep words clear and simple. Short statements and stick to facts about current problems. Avoid the past and future. Be open, honest and warm. If she’s willing to engage with you on problem solving to find a compromise ... then brilliant.

If not, then you must be strong for both yourself and her.

Good luck

LP

[JoeBPD81]

Hi Lollypop

I remember you. I know my problem, it's not new. I was married for 15 years, and I thought my purpose in life was "being a good husband", I was content, I didn't feel the need to fill a void in myself.

I am codependent. And I'm afraid it's a trait that has been with me for my life of 40+ years. They say when a codependent life is in danger is the life of another person the one that flashes through his eyes. I feel it is true for me. I don't know if it's my education, growing up in a house with my parents and 4 siblings (the individual was never important, nothing was owned privatelly) or what. But I just can't just stop caring. If what's good for me can harm other people and I know about it, it's just wrong.

I don't feel I can learnt to be another way in one week. Knowing that I've been like that all my life. I honestly think this is for lack of something, an ability to manage my own emotions, lack of assertiveness or braveness... Rather than because I'm good or altruistic. I know I have very selfish thoughts. And I'm not a person that does charity work and such.

But I also honestly feel that if I have a great life and I don't share what I have it with anyone, why am I here? I always have the need to feel useful.

So knowing myself, I'm not going to be happy kicking them out. I feel it not only makes me a "do wrong" person in the present, but it negates whatever good I've done these last 6 years with my life.

I'm not saying I'm right, I wish to change the way I think and feel, and I wish to be able to think about my own wellbeing. But it sounds so abstract and alien to me. It's like "I don't get the joke" everyone else is laughing about. It's so obvious for everybody, and it sounds like an impossible concept to apply to myself.

Even my mother tells me I have to look after myself. Even she who put this example in my life. She's been with my father since she was 13 years old. Now they are close to 80. I have never hear her say something that hits that she loves my father. And being like that, I don't see anything that he provides for her. And she complains about him as if she couldn't stand him. Nonetheless, she takes care of him and she always had. She's the giver and my father is the taker. They had 4 more or less acomplished kids together, and a good comfortable life. So she has sacrificed all her life beshides a man that doesn't make her happy. Their RS has been not so different from mine.

Anyway. I appreciate the words. I haven't thought of the posibility of she refusing to leave. And this is preparing myself for that outcome. I never told her to go. My cry for help was to find the courage and the words to tell her, when I think it's time.

Today she's having surgery in her mouth, she stopped going to the dentist years ago because she spent all her money on the kids, and none on herself. She even left some work unfinished. And now she has a huge infection in her jaw-bone. And she's been in enormous pain. Whe we were a couple, she refused my money to take care of this. So these days it feels even worse to thinks about kicking them out. I've been talking about it with you and some people, while I see her in unbearable pain. And I witness how the two kids treat her, with cruelty, and complete selfishness, and I can't give her even more suffering.

I understand this is not going to end well. What doesn't make sense is to aim for the worst case scenario before trying the best one. If I have to look after myself, I need something positive to look for. I don't want them to leave so I can drive into a wall with my carand end my suffering. I want them to leave to be happier. So what I can think as positive right now is to keep this house to myself. Later I'll add more things, and I might even move out. But I can't do anything if my reward is going to be a big question mark. I've been picturing my life without them and I picture myself being able to do things, from here. I know it's superficial and not important. But it might change.

I'll tell you how it goes. Thanks a lot.

[RobertSmith]

Hi Joe,

I understand your situation and wish to give you some think to think about. As men trying to do good, we were told to be good providers and to take care of others in need. Its in our DNA I suppose and you do it not out of pressure, but because I think you believe it the be the ''right'' thing to do. I would probably do the same thing in your situation, especially if I would be attached to the kids.

I cannot tell you what to do, but try to imagine if the role were inversed. What if you were the 40 year old man with child without a job and ability to sustain yourself? How would you feel about yourself if you had to rely on a women for money and shelter? You would probably be branded as a deadbeat good for nothing person who takes advantage.

We cannot deconstruct completely how we were raised and how our brain work. You do what you think is right, but know that if given the opportunity, do you feel that this person would do the same thing for you?

   

[Lollypop]

Hi Joe

Your mother’s story is not your story. I too look back on my own parents and my early life as a way to answer some questions. But you know what? My life is mine and I don’t have to repeat their errors. I deserve happiness. So do you, so does your partner.

But I can't do anything if my reward is going to be a big question mark]

We all feel anxiety when we can’t see what our future looks like. It takes some problem solving and feeling our way forwards about what is acceptable to us...together or apart. The fear of the unknown can make us stuck. I think you’ve both been stuck for quite a while. We tend to choose the path of least resistance. Change is uncomfortable.

I struggle with the word “reward”. Are you making the priority of this potential split about who gets the house?

I want them to leave to be happier.

Ah, two words...:leave and happier. It could be you that leaves and be happier. You want her to do this. Realistically, if all her problems that you describe are true which I’m sure they are, is this “wish” even possible?  Can she leave? Can she be happier in the leaving? Remembering she has bpd, is physically unwell and has challenging children. Her future happiness is beyond your control. However, you can create a situation where she and her children can feel stable, whether you part or stay together.

This situation you are in must be so upsetting for everybody. I’m very sorry you’re going through this. I know the pain. It might help to ask yourself “what would a wise person do?” I wish somebody had asked me that when I was caught up in the whirlwind of a relationship breakdown.

Hugs

LP

[Lollypop]

Hi Joe

I guess my reply didn’t measure up. Let’s try again.

Have you heard of DEARMAN?

Im sure you have. I love it as a tool for dealing with conflict. I’ve never had to get to the MAN part: look it up if you’re interested.

I suggest you write your own words. If you want some feedback then I’m happy to offer suggestions.

Practice reading it out to yourself a number of times. Be confident. Be warm. Be open and honest.

Describe:
Stick to facts. Keep it short, simple and truthful. What is going on, what is the real issue?  They shouldn’t  be able to deny the truth.

Express
How does this situation make you feel?

Assert:
Say what you want to happen.

Re-assert:
Repeat what you want to happen. Add:
“If you can do this then we can all get along better and be happier.”

Let it hang there.
Do not speak.
If they start to react negatively...Repeat your assertion and keep on repeating it if she/they attempt to distract you or attempt to change the focus of your discussion.
You stay focussed on your end goal...that they hear you and understand what you want to happen.

If they continue to react rather than listen to you then Then say that you “don’t want to talk about it further”  then walk away.

I hope this helps you.

LP

[Lollypop]

I’m sorry Joe. Not sure what you’re going through in these immediate days but do know I didn’t hit a mark. It’s ok, you’ll work it out. At least I tried. Life’s tough.
But we make it harder for ourselves than is needed sometimes . X

[JoeBPD81]

Thanks a lot. I'm just trying to get through the Christmas Holidays. We had a talk and cried a lot, and things are less tense now. She talks about her fear and her options, but she says she's very relieved because I don't hate her. It's very confusing, but it's better.

I usually write here when I'm at work, but I have a long break for a couple of weeks. At home I don't find the time to write in private. Sorry I didn't say anything before, but I'll go back to everything you said when I can.

Happy Holidays.

[livednlearned]

I talked to an old friend yesterday and he told me many many times to stop waiting and kick them out today. It filled me with anxiety.

Anxiety is no small matter when it rules our lives.

This may be more about managing your anxiety. Would you say that this anxiety is what is keeping you from making changes?

When I prepared to leave my high-conflict marriage I did it in many many teeny tiny steps over the course of months, and then a year later we had an episode and to my surprise the parachute worked.

I was flooded in anxiety from surviving the relationship day in, day out. I couldn't imagine doing anything to add to that full bowl.

Maybe for you kicking her out now during a pandemic plus holiday with no job and 2 kids and anorexia and poor dental health is not realistic for your anxiety load.

Sometimes focusing on our small needs can help pump the brakes on anxiety, especially if you have codependent tendencies and experience guilt when you make yourself a priority.

Almost like learning to strengthen a muscle. Can you get yourself used to putting JoeBPD81's need first once a day? Then twice?

[JoeBPD81]

Anxiety is no small matter when it rules our lives.

This may be more about managing your anxiety. Would you say that this anxiety is what is keeping you from making changes?

It is keeping me from wanting to live, from wanting to wake up everyday.

When I prepared to leave my high-conflict marriage I did it in many many teeny tiny steps over the course of months, and then a year later we had an episode and to my surprise the parachute worked.

I was flooded in anxiety from surviving the relationship day in, day out. I couldn't imagine doing anything to add to that full bowl.

Maybe for you kicking her out now during a pandemic plus holiday with no job and 2 kids and anorexia and poor dental health is not realistic for your anxiety load.

Sometimes focusing on our small needs can help pump the brakes on anxiety, especially if you have codependent tendencies and experience guilt when you make yourself a priority.

Almost like learning to strengthen a muscle. Can you get yourself used to putting JoeBPD81's need first once a day? Then twice?

There's no chance to get any cooperation from them if I say I want to do anything. So I've been getting used to not even thinking about what I want. I has been war even to start doing what they said they wanted. As an example, I said I wanted to watch a movie (with them) that I already had on DVD and it took 6 months for them to agree. Many other movies I end up watching alone. Even though they loved all the movies I've proposed.

This has been going on for so long that I don't remember what I wanted, or what's normal. What do people do when they wake up one saturday morning? Whay did I do before all this?

I'm really down today.

Yesterday  I got a long review of our RS from her, by many texts. She started apologizing and blaming herself... But listed all the ways I kind of make her do that. And she expected me to comfort her after all that, when I went to bed and didn't have the energy to have dinner or even watch tv.

Today she feels betrayed, and says I gave her the silent treatment to punish her. After repeating that some times, and explaining how my face hurts her when I speak to her, She said she was gonna leave me alone. And she did. Meaning she won't text, but I'll face her son as soon as I get home, and she and the other son some time later.

Yesterday she told me she wishes she had family that would say they will take care of her and gave her space to re-build her life, while helping her with the kids. I said I 've been doing that for 6 years even after she broke up with me. And she says no, that I didn't do that because of my face, and my depression. I paid for some studies she wanted and never finished, I stayed with the kids everytime she needed to go somewhere, and the few times she worked. I supported her plans and took her side in all her family troubles...

Ok I know it hasn't work, but I still have lost my 6 years and my self steem, my friends, I offended my family countless times... And it doesn't help to hear that it wasn't enough.

She's really mad that I haven't talked much. The last 5 years I never felt she was interested in what I had to day. She mocked my ideas, my problems, my hobbies... And never asked about me. And when I opened my mouth, if it wasn't mocking it was violence, complaints, lectures, screams... That's if she doesn't stop me before I open my mouth "I don't wanna talk to you/anyone! Don't come in! Leave me alone..." Our life tells me "shut up", but she tells me " I don't talk, to punish her". I've listened to her hours and hours, with interest and compassion. But she complains that she's felt alone because the face I make when I listen, and that I don't talk to her.

85% of all the time, she and the kids are screaming at each other. I don't understand that level of violence. If I take part, then the blame is all mine. So more and more, I isolated myself and didn't take any part.

I originally didn't talk too much. But I never had problems, and people found me kind, funny, and patient... people talked to me and I listened. And that was fine.

But this life made me talk less and less. I even stopped telling her how difficult she made it for me to talk. Because it never worked, she took it as an attack and things were worse. I get blocked. Blank. I can't think of anything to say that won't make things worse.

I don't have a clue what's going on. I feel like a complete failure. But at the same time, if I break up with someone, and she keeps giving me and my kids shelter for years, and trying to keep a good mood, and participate as if they were my family... I would be grateful and ashamed, not angry and demanding.

People tell me I do too much, and she seems to not give any value to "my everything". She says sometimes that she owes me too much, and that I did more for them than anybody, but she never acts like she believes her own words.

I feel I fail myself and everybody for putting them 1st, and that doesn't even count to not failing her.

I'm sorry for rambling so aimlessly.

[JoeBPD81]

Have you heard of DEARMAN?

Describe:
Stick to facts. Keep it short, simple and truthful. What is going on, what is the real issue?  They shouldn’t  be able to deny the truth.

We started a RS, a couple. Then you said you were not my GF anymore, but we kept living together. Conflict has been increasingly frequent. No one is happier than before.

Express
How does this situation make you feel?
This broke my heart, and left me feeling I don't have a place in the family.

Assert:
Say what you want to happen.
I wanted peace, and respect, and friendship in exchange for my friendship, my respect, and my house.
Now (that the former didn't work) I want you to go.

Re-assert:
Repeat what you want to happen. Add:
“If you can do this then we can all get along better and be happier.”

HERE is when this breaks up. I will be better, they will be as miserable as they are but also homeless. Once I told her there was a chance that they will be happy once they leave me and build a different life, as they are not happy for sure with me. And she got really mad at me for saying that.

Let it hang there.
Do not speak.

I do too much of that.