Next steps (long post)

[maxsterling]

First I want to say thanks to everyone who commented on my previous topic.  I am glad I came back here to post again.  It has helped re-round me about the situation I am in.

I've come to the realization that I am living with emotional and sometimes physical abuse.  A previous T said that to me, and basically said that when you are constantly being put down by abuse, it is difficult to act rationally, make appropriate choices, or act in ways that are constructive.  In other words, communication tools work so much, but constant abuse and living with anxiety/fear over abuse makes those tools ineffective.  The situation I am in is not sustainable, and the near constant damage control has slowly exhausted me.  Something has to be different.  The reality is that I have needs too, and they are not being met.  

So what do I do now?  My first steps so far are to find a T for me.  W now says she wants a relationship counselor again.  I hesitate on that because for the most part, that route has ended in disaster because W claims the T is always taking my side.  The one T that W liked wound up focusing 90% of the sessions on Ws issues.  It was more like a personal session for her and I was just with her.  

Should I just focus on seeing a T for now, or should I think beyond?  I've considered a few options regarding possible separation.  One is for me to refinance the house, take the equity and give to W, and tell her I want a separation, ask her to find her own place, and then work out the details of the separation after we have space.  Talking about divorce/separation without a clear option feels like a recipe for disaster.  I would be fine with this option - it is something I discussed with an L a few years back regarding my financial responsibilities under the law.  That would give both of us space, and allow for a more constructive resolution.

Another thing that could help me in the short term is to return to working from the office one day per week.  I am supposed to be in one day per week anyway, but I haven't in a month and part of the reason is because I am constantly dealing with either W or kids' needs.  But being in the office helps me take care of my needs.  

This morning.  W had another instance of misdirected anger/blame shift towards me.  From my point of view, it was a no-win situation.  I need to do better at recognizing those and avoid them long before they crop up.  In this case W had an appointment to see the OBGYN.  First appointment since an emergency hysterectomy that happened as a result of childbirth.  I know there are a ton of emotions tied up in that for her.  I made a telehealth appointment for the kids on the same day, an hour and a half after her OBGYN.  I made the appointment because W was complaining about how much work she had to do and that she does all of it.  This is is a common problem.  W complains about how much work she has to do, I agree to take care of some of her responsibilities, and then she complains that I do them wrong or take too long to do them.  So W raged, claiming I was inconsiderate for making an appointment for the kids on the same day.  Reality is she was anxious about the OBGYN, and the scheduling of the kids' appointment was not the issue - I NEED TO LET HER MAKE THOSE APPOINTMENTS BECAUSE NO MATTER HOW I DO THEM THEY ARE WRONG.

She raged at me for half an hour, in front of the kids.   I tried to leave to the back room to do some work, she followed me and raged at me there.  Meanwhile, D3 was in the other room, screaming for attention (she had been asking for help the whole time, and finally was frustrated).  W then left, went to the other room, and spanked D3 for screaming.  I came in, defended D3, and said it was inappropriate for W to spank her.  This was a drastically different action than I have taken recently.  At this point, I did not care if I invalidated W, or if she chose to leave or take other action.  D3 had done nothing wrong.  W then raged more, but I stood up for the kids.  I said that if she is mad at me or someone else it is fine, but it is not okay to continue like this in front of the children, or blame or discipline the children for acting out at that time.  She continued, claiming she was moving out, was going to commit suicide, hurt herself, etc.  I feel good about taking a stand and letting her choose her next action.  Eventually, she broke down mostly crying and now blaming herself for ruining things.  

The end result of my different action was a quicker transition between "it's everyone else's fault" to "it's my fault".  Normally, she would be stomping and raging at me for a few days.  But now just a few hours later she is already back to being a little more constructive about things.  She brought up marital counseling again, and was actually constructive in her comments in saying that any counseling needs to be more constructive and focused than in the past.  This was my issue with previous counseling - it was not constructive and didn't focus on issues and solutions.  

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

Is here any chance you recorded the spanking incident?

I think that since your W is asking for couples counseling that you should say yes.  Can you find the same one you went to before?

However, I think YOU should behave 100% differently than before.

I also think you should establish yourself with your own T before doing couples T.

I get it that doing couples counseling differently and "confronting" issues head on will be uncomfortable and may be no productive for the relationship (as in healing the relationship)...yet I do think it will be productive in clarifying your resolve.

Also, please don't solve your wife's problems for her (refi and giving her money).  Is she on disability? 

I know she will do it badly...but let her solve it herself.

Hang in there Max!

Best,

FF

[maxsterling]

Is here any chance you recorded the spanking incident?

No.  But I did record the rage that happened after I confronted her about it.

I think that since your W is asking for couples counseling that you should say yes.  Can you find the same one you went to before?

I will definitely agree to counseling.  That counselor may be retired, so it may be a non issue.  W did tell me she does not want to go back to that counselor.  I think that is an embarrassment issue for her.

However, I think YOU should behave 100% differently than before.

I also think you should establish yourself with your own T before doing couples T.

I get it that doing couples counseling differently and "confronting" issues head on will be uncomfortable and may be no productive for the relationship (as in healing the relationship)...yet I do think it will be productive in clarifying your resolve.

Agree 100%.  I think I have been to "soft" regarding abuse before, excusing it as mental illness.  At times, I expected the T to jump in as a validating voice, or a "rescuer".  So the sessions would just "go with the flow" and really not address or solve much.  Really here I need to be firm on boundaries.  I need to be forthright about my own needs here, "I love you, care about our family, want to stay together, but I am unhappy and I can't be happy if xyz continues."

Also, please don't solve your wife's problems for her (refi and giving her money).  Is she on disability? 

Yes, she is on disability.  Unfortunately, the disability is not enough to cover basic cost of living.  I discussed this issue with an L a few years ago, and what I stated above was what the L said would be the likely outcome in any kind of settlement given the law and case law in my state.  Basically that the court would see her as at a disadvantage money/career/housing wise from being a stay-at-home mother, and that there would be an expectation for me to provide enough for her to have her own place if disability did not cover it, at least for a few months at which time she would be expected to cover her own expenses.  The L told me that even though the house is mine, any equity accrued in the house after our marriage is half hers.  According to the L, it would be common for someone to request half of the equity from the person wishing to remain in the house, or if the house is sold the equity gets split evenly.  If this is the eventual outcome anyway, I would have no issues doing it as a bargaining chip or a means of showing good faith. 

[formflier]

Max,

I like how you are thinking things through.

Continue to be deliberate about separating issues and dealing with things separately, even though you know they are interrelated.

Let's also start a separate thread to focus on your "approach" to couples counseling.

Quick version: 

It will likely only help "facilitate communication of healthy boundaries".

Let's hope for more, but be realistic about what is likely...


Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

My thought is that you might want to slow walk couples counseling and prioritize finding yourself a T.

Another issue for you to get really clear on is how you envision the future with your wife. What is she capable of as far as being an equal partner? And will this be enough for you as the children grow into adolescents?

It’s time to set wishful thinking aside and confront the major issue in your life. Are things sustainable in a marriage with her?

[formflier]

It’s time to set wishful thinking aside and confront the major issue in your life. Are things sustainable in a marriage with her?

Totally agree...no couple counseling until YOU are comfortable and established with your T.  You will need support.

What if at the start of couples counseling you stated something like this..

"My wife has expressed interest in improving our relationship.  I'm here to listen and see if there is a future relationship I can say yes to."

How do you think your wife would react to hearing that?

Best,

FF

[maxsterling]

CF - she is not capable of being an equal partner.  I came to that conclusion a long time ago, that I will always be somewhat of a "caretaker" for her.  This creates an uncomfortable dynamic.  On one hand W wants a caretaker.  On the other hand, she resents being taken care of.  On my end, certain things need to get done, for our children's sake.  I've resigned myself to accept that as long as we are together, certain things will always be struggles and certain things will not be possible.  Examples:  major financial purchases, relocating, travelling.

The reality is that I can't live with the dynamic/abuse as it is now.  I am unhappy.  If things went back to the few-times-per year dysregulation/abuse, I can manage.  Right now it is daily/weekly.  I think the big difference now is that before kids and when the kids were little, I still had some of my own time/hobbies to balance things out.  Now I have none.  It's even difficult to get the privacy to make phone calls regarding T for myself.  If I/we can get back to a situation where each of us has time to take care of our own basic needs, I can accept some of the other imbalances.  But right now, I feel day-to-day about meeting the most basic self-care tasks.  

[formflier]

But right now, I feel day-to-day about meeting the most basic self-care tasks.  

Can you give a couple of examples?  It's important to have these well thought through and be able to communicate them in the best way possible.

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

The reality is that I can't live with the dynamic/abuse as it is now.  I am unhappy.  If things went back to the few-times-per year dysregulation/abuse, I can manage.  Right now it is daily/weekly.  I think the big difference now is that before kids and when the kids were little, I still had some of my own time/hobbies to balance things out.  Now I have none. 


Max, I don't think situations are static. I think all parents would say that they had more free time before they had kids and then according to the needs of the kids, their personal time changes. Small children need constant supervision. As they get older, they are able to play in a room on their own- they still need a parent around but one isn't constantly watching like one does a toddler. Then they eventually become teenagers and that's a whole different set of parental attention.

I also found that pwBPD go through the same life events and stressors any person does, and even happy event is a change/stress- new baby, move, new job etc. Your wife may seem more stable during some times than others, but I don't think it's because the BPD isn't there, it's just that, with any person, some times are more stressful than others and this is how they manage these stresses.

Change for you probably needs to be a constant, for the long run, not just "she had a good day today" or "she had a bad day today" as an indicator that she has changed. Change is slow, consistent and long lasting and depends on her ability and personal work to change, if that is possible. You are the one who has to chart your own course here- stop looking at a disordered person to lead you out of the maze.

I too vote for getting a T for you over marriage T. Ultimately, I think any change you wish to do will be on your part, not her part as you can only control yourself and time and money is best invested in getting you a T. Your wife already has a T for her.

Raising small children is time consuming. One has to make the effort to get some personal time. It looks like you are in a situation where your wife isn't able to be an equal partner- but what aspect can she do? I am not sure how much that is. It's hard with a pandemic, but hopefully schools and pre-schools will open back up and that would free up some time. I don't know if your finances allow outsourcing some other household chores- getting a few take out meals to free up cooking time, grocery delivery to save time shopping. You getting out to the office to spend some time away from home. It may take some imagination but even a couple changes might free up some time for you.

[rum2020]

I really feel for everything you are going through. I would absolutely suggest going into the office whenever you can. As much as I loved working from home, I went back full time to the office and it has been the only space where I can relax. At work is where I can be on these boards and contact Ts. Though with kids I can understand that is a much more difficult situation, but if you can go one day to give yourself some space it might really help you out.

I really hope you get a therapist for yourself soon, so you can have a place to really get into what would be best for you, and how to get there.

I wanted to offer a perspective from someone who grew up with a single dad who had BPD. As you go through counseling and try to make things work, it would be a good idea to let kids know they are a priority and that they can depend on you, that they don't have to hide things to not make things worse for Mom and Dad. You seem the type that would not abandon your kids which is great, they are very lucky, but please consider getting full custody if you end up separating. I have heard that the court system (if you are in America) can be unfavorable to men, so please record things and not let your kids have to become caretakers themselves, or they will end up just like us on these forums in 20-30 years.

[kells76]

Hey maxsterling;

Quick thought:

It's even difficult to get the privacy to make phone calls regarding T for myself.

Sounds like you have considered/tried doing this from home, with less success. Can you do this from the office, on your break/lunch?

Could be a win win -- you get office time and you get privacy to set up T.

I think there can be ways to frame "maxsterling getting a T" as "the logical step before finding a marriage T". Is there a concern that W "won't like" that you are getting a personal T before you guys set up MT?

Just wondering how it would go if the "vibe" or "statement" around you getting your own T is "I need to understand myself and what I bring to the relationship, so that I can be at my best to listen to us/you during MT". Something like that, where if the issue is that W is doing black and white thinking about "it's either maxsterling gets a T, or we get a MT, and he's getting one for him first, ugh", the messaging from you is "this is exactly how I would go about getting a MT, just doing step 1 of understanding my challenges so I can be 110% there and understand/listen during MT".

You're doing a lot of good processing here and considering your kids' needs. Really good job; keep it up.

kells76

[Cat Familiar]

Great strategy from kells76 

[maxsterling]

Thanks for the really good input here.  Lots to respond to.  Right now W is trying to find MC, tentatively made an appointment for two weeks from now.  I resisted sooner.  I will start a new thread later regarding strategies/coaching for me focused on that topic.

Basic self care for me that isn't being met:  Adequate sleep and some amount of personal time during the day in which I can take care of household and personal needs.  What I feel I need is at least 3-4 nights a week where I get at least 7 hours sleep.  Roadblocks to this - early riser kids and a W that doesn't wake up until 8 am.  Kids that won't go to sleep on their own and require mom/dad intervention to get them to stay in their beds and be quiet, often until 9:30pm.  That means the kids may finally get to sleep at 9:30, but are up at 6.  You see the problem here.  Another issue is an anxious wife that often does not fall asleep until after midnight.  When she is up, she is expecting me to interact and participate with her while she online shops, etc.  She feels invalidated if I don't - and often claims I don't care.  If I work from home, I also need a certain amount of time to get my job done.  Often this is difficult.  I probably need about 3 hours per week to get household/personal tasks done.  Weekends are rough, as W expects my help/company for the entire day.  If I ask for time to do something like mow the lawn, she gets antsy after 30 minutes and starts asking when I will be done.  I have a list of things that would not take much time or money to complete - just need about 3 continuous hours of dedicated time to get it done.  

As for custody in divorce - the laws here talk about parenting time and custody over decision making processes.  My understanding is that courts try to do things 50/50 unless they have a reason not to.  If there is evidence  that one parent is negligent or abusive, you can ask that children stay with you 100% of the time and the other parent gets only supervised visitation.  I am told things are not slanted towards mothers anymore.

W has demanded I get my own T.  But those demands come during a rage (she thinks I need to get diagnosed with something and get on medication).  When I say I am meeting with a T, I guarantee it will make her uncomfortable.  Kells, I like your suggestions on how to ease into this.  

Today is the first morning in awhile where W has not raged at me, complained about me, made sarcastic remarks, or blamed me for something.  I've come to the conclusion that 100% of that is blame shifting.  Not that I am perfect, but it's really about Ws own shame or anxiety over something else.  Yesterday it was the OBGYN appointment.  The morning criticisms and complaints are redirected from her own shame of sleeping in.  

[Cat Familiar]

Remember about not validating the invalid? Keeping your wife company until midnight when you are sleep deprived is invalid.

Asking permission to mow the lawn is invalid.

You have appeased her for so long that you’ve neglected your personal welfare. This is unsustainable.

Reassertion your boundaries will undoubtedly be uncomfortable, but what choice do you have? You are the key support for your children, you’ve got to take care of your wellbeing to continue to be there for them.

[Notwendy]

Max your situation has similarities to my parents' situation. For me, as much as I cared about my parents, I could only manage as much as I could. I think we all would have done all we could to help her, but even my best efforts didn't seem to be enough. This doesn't mean it was pointless, I think it does help, but that, I had to respect my limits ( boundaries) because if I didn't, I couldn't expect her to. And with her tendency to all or none thinking, I might say "yes" to 10 requests but one "no" and to her I was the worst person ever in that moment.

But to stand up for your basic needs- sleep, time to yourself- you have to be able to weather the response in the moment. In the moment you are the worst person ever, but afterwards she may be able to get a grip on herself.

Surely your kids have had temper tantrums. Most parents have seen their kids pitch a fit when they don't get something they want. You will be the worst parent ever when they want a cookie for dinner and you say no. But what would they do if, every time they pitched a fit, they got a cookie? Pitch more fits of course. Giving in to keep the peace, neglecting your own needs for your wife's wishes- this may get you some momentary peace, just like giving a kid a cookie for dinner might as well. But you know as a parent that in the long run, cookies for dinner is not good for your child, giving in to a temper tantrum isn't good for your child. It also isn't good for your wife to enable her maladaptive behavior.

Growing up we were in constant fear of my BPD mother and her moods. She also had the power to enlist my father in her demands. I understand the needing to ask permission for even small things. It gave her control. Control is a means of dealing with anxiety and our compliance was expected.

[maxsterling]

Wendy, you have given me a lot to think about.

I used to go to a few Alanon meetings per week (another self-care thing I no longer have time for).  I would sit and listen to people talk about if they stopped solving the issues of the addict, the addict would get better, take on more responsibilities, etc.  Sometimes that was true.  Other times, I felt those statements alone were another form of caretaking (If I stop doing this, I will get a different result).

My feeling now is that whether "Releasing the addict" (Alanon term) helps the addict is entirely up to the what that person is capable of.  It does help you, though, take care of yourself.   Stopping caretaking could also mean the addict leaves, gets worse, dies, etc, but strips you of the obligation.  Most of the "addicts" discussed in Alanon do not have the debilitating mental illnesses that W has. 

I don't know what my W is capable of here.  On one hand, she has hit "rock bottom" many times before in her life, and finds a way to take care of herself.  I don't know how many times that has required the assistance or caretaking of another.  The reality is she is 45, and if she hasn't learned yet how to take care of herself (especially within a relationship), then I don't think it will happen. She is not a toddler having a tantrum, she is an adult having a tantrum. When she is not dysregulated, she knows what needs to happen.  Yet it doesn't happen, and she often has zero control over emotions and actions. 

But, r/s issues and me calling the police one time did send her out to look for a job, which she got and kept for over a year.  But, I doubt she would have been able to keep that job for as long as she did without my support (that was the longest she has held a job her whole life).   It was much easier to stop caretaking W when kids weren't involved.  Wendy, that's probably the way your dad felt.  Two choices - separate, or do what he can with your mom.  That's the way I feel - separate, or accept that I will always have to caretake W at least somewhat.

This morning again was bad, after a weekend that was better than most recent ones.  W was mad again that the yard was a mess from the kids yesterday.  Of course, I was to blame.  Reality?  The yard was already a mess when I took the kids outside yesterday (W stayed inside for 2 hours tending to her needs).  I am not sure when W expects me (or the kids) to have time to clean up the yard.  Another reality, W's mood soured quickly last night this morning after she broke down and used Marijuana again.  Her attempt to quit or cut back lasted about 2 days. 

She came inside and screamed/raged at me for 15 minutes while the kids were outside alone.  At that point, I went outside to make sure kids were okay.  This definitely made W more upset.  At this point, making sure kids are okay is more important than validating W.  After awhile, I simply made the decision to not participate, which also made W worse, and went about trying to work from home.  She has managed to calm on her own some, but she is still stomping around a little and closing doors loudly.

[maxsterling]

W is on the phone searching for legal advice.  I have no issues with this.  I am hoping she will actually listen to the advice and then quit coming at me with threats.

[Notwendy]

Yes, of course it's easier to caretake one person than to caretake one person and kids at the same time. I think this is a situation that stresses the relationship. Suddenly there's competition between the needs of the kids and even the expectation that the pwBPD step up a bit, which could be false expectations.

Yes, hindsight is 2020 and I can look back at my parents' marriage over all the years they were married, at least as long as I was old enough to notice.

I don't think it's as easy to see the potential future as none of us can do that.

The parallel between dysfunctional relationships where BPD is concerned ( or other mental illness) and the 12 steps is there, but again, everyone is different and one does take in to account the individual situations. It's considered in ACA groups which expands to children of dysfunction.

This was the key ( in the old AA book which was  males as alcoholics and their "loving supportive wives"). It was written in the 1950's and so had traditional gender roles but these could apply to males or females). The key observation was that the alcoholics might be taking steps to get better but then, were not getting better. Wondering why they were not, even though their wives were so "loving and supportive" they took a closer look and discovered the wives were enabling their husbands to stay addicted by not allowing them to experience the consequences of being alcoholic. Things like calling their boss at work to say their husbands were sick, rather than let them face the consequence of not showing up due to drinking, making excuses for them, lying and covering up for them, essentially stopping them from enduring any cost to drinking too much.

All behaviors are driven by a cost /benefit ratio when it comes right down to it. Even high cost ones like alcoholism. So long as the benefit to the alcoholic exceeds the cost, they will keep on drinking. Lowering the cost of drinking keeps the benefits greater.

The work with the wives did not start out as being for their own enlightenment and self care actualization. It was to make them aware that what they thought  was being loving and supportive was actually making it harder for their husbands to quit drinking.

I have seen a large difference in 12 step groups. Groups that let the enablers complain and support their victim hood may not be very productive. I am grateful mine did not do that. They were pretty tough on us and it wasn't comfortable, but being shown how one is perpetuating the very pattern we are trying to improve on made an impact.

I know that my mother would not be able to hold on to a job. Despite her being intelligent, she's extremely affected by BPD. Ironically she has "grown" into her situation- she has assistance because she is elderly and it is "normal" for elderly people to need this help. When she needs to do something, she needs a lot of reassurance and emotional support for even regular tasks. Yet she can pull it together and be quite charming and lucid when she needs to be. It was hard to get psychiatric intervention due to her being able to be lucid and considered "legally competent". Also the lack of mental health resources makes it hard to consider leaving someone this affected without support. What would they do?

The "what if" for me isn't knowing how they worked out. It's the "what if"- what if my father didn't enabler her so much? What if he did allow her to take on just a little bit more of the things she could do? Could she have managed it? Would the dynamics between them be just a bit better for them both? I don't know and neither do you. What you do know is what happens if you continue doing more of the same. The same thing.

One problem with nobody asking my mother to do anything for them ( usual response was a rage) was that she never experienced feeling needed or a sense of accomplishment. I recall one time taking care of my own small childen- my hands were full- and asking her if she minded making them sandwiches for lunch while I took care of whatever they needed at the time. I never left my kids alone with my mother but we did visit my parents and they did have a presence for my kids as grandparents.  This time, she actually did it and seemed quite pleased with herself. It seems like a small thing but we were so used to not asking her for anything and just doing for her. By doing this, thinking we were being caring for her, we also didn't give her the chance to help out in whatever way she could if she wanted to.

I guess I am suggesting small shifts in the enabling, not abandoning a dependent person. What can she do for herself that you are doing for her? Can you ask her to cook a meal and if she doesn't know how, can you teach her to do that? Having a job might be more than she can handle but if you start with small things maybe eventually she can learn more tasks.

What seemed to happen between my parents was that the more my father took on to "make her situation less stressful" the less she did and the less confident she could do something. This resulted in us doing even more to ease her distress and she did less and so on.

This is the parallel to 12 steps. My father was loving and supportive and in his concern for her well being, he also may have taken on what could have been learning experiences for her. Yes, your wife isn't a toddler having a tantrum. She's an adult with the emotional regulation skills of a toddler. Is she capable of learning to regulate her emotions a bit better? We don't know that. I know you fear suicide threats but I am not proposing that you do something so big she defaults to that. Little steps like letting her calm down a bit longer before you intervene.

[khibomsis]

Max, well done for walking away! I did a lot of that in the beginning, after radical acceptance and realizing that I needed to make the relationship livable for myself. With time I learnt not to JADE and to validate instead, it is still an ongoing process but one gets better with practice. The point is that this is not about helping your wife to cope. Deflecting her rage back on her (or at least reducing your contribution to the conflagration) reduces potential PTSD for you. That is the point.

Good luck with your therapist today!

[Notwendy]

Right- it's a double benefit. Leaving a dysregulated person to themselves to calm down helps to not be stressed by it. It also allows the other person to deal with their own feelings.

JADE doesn't help and also trying to soothe them takes away their ability to learn to self soothe. It may feel like you are helping them in the moment but if one can see it as not helping in the long run by taking away their opportunity to learn to manage- it doesn't seem helpful. Validation - saying something like " I understand you are upset- I need to take a time out right now" ( make it your need) and not engage in the argument is a form of self care too.

Self care can be seen in two ways- it helps you- it also helps the other person learn to manage their own uncomfortable feelings, if that is possible. Sometimes being so "helpful and supportive" isn't really helping either of you.

Self care is important and one aspect of that is not engaging in the rages, not JADE and taking a "time out" for you if possible.

[maxsterling]

Self care is important and one aspect of that is not engaging in the rages, not JADE and taking a "time out" for you if possible.

Key word for me is "if possible".  Last night after I left to take "time out", W tried blowing up my phone with text messages.  Usually I ignore them for awhile until I can collect myself and not respond in anger.  This makes W mad that I do not respond immediately.  Too bad.  I did tell her after an hour that I needed to eat and take care of myself and be done with the conversation for awhile.  She sent one more message mocking my desire for a break, but after that I had two hours to myself.   A very badly needed two hours.

[Notwendy]

I did tell her after an hour that I needed to eat and take care of myself and be done with the conversation for awhile.  She sent one more message mocking my desire for a break, but after that I had two hours to myself.   A very badly needed two hours.


Good, this is a good plan-

First you tell her what you need for you. Don't mention her. That will provoke an argument. " I need to take a break and get something to eat.

You could then tell her the parameters. " I will be back at 3. I need to take a break from this conversation".

Don't expect her to be nice about it. She can blow up the phone, call you names, whatever, don't reply because that was your boundary.

DO NOT REACT emotionally to her texts no matter what she calls you. You reinforce this when you respond or argue back or JADE. just don't do it.

Looks like she got the message when she only sent one text.

Now do this again and again until it becomes a habit for you.

[maxsterling]

Now do this again and again until it becomes a habit for you.

Agreed.  One of the good things I did yesterday that I can build on.  Unfortunately, this doesn't come across in person.  If I ask for a break to get something to eat or take a walk when we are together, I usually get met with violence.  That's why I have simply been leaving and tell her I will be back later. 

So maybe scenario for now is - leave the abuse.  Take time for myself to calm down.  If she blows up phone, respond the way I did last night.  If she doesn't blow up phone, send her a message after 30 minutes saying that I am doing xyz, let her know where I am, and when I will be home.

[Notwendy]

Yes, don't ask. You know the answer. State calmly- I need to take a break to compose myself.

One of the exercises I worked on with a sponsor was to not ever use the "you" word. It's a bit awkward to have to think about this, but it helps you center on your feelings and needs. It also makes the action about you, not her. Think of how this goes:

"I need to take a break from YOU and I will come home when YOU stop yelling. "

That puts the action in her control and also blames her.

"I am feeling too rattled to continue this conversation so I need to take some time to compose my thoughts"

She can say whatever she wants, this is your statement and about you.

Your situation reminds me so much of what we grew up with. We had to ask "permission" from BPD mother to do anything. My father did too. Cell phones really changed things. We used to be able to go out with him to run and errand and not get called. With cell phones she literally called every 2 minutes- where are you, what are you doing, come home now. If she found out we did something before asking her "permission" it would be trouble. If I put something in the fridge without her permission she would throw it out.

Here is where my thinking about appeasing my mother changed. To be honest, it was harder to set boundaries when my father was alive, as if she was angry she'd take it out on him and we didn't want that for him. This is why I hope you are able to have some boundaries and time for yourself because you are the only one who can do this for you.

The change was- I thought I was keeping the peace but in actuality, I was enabling my mother to be an abusive tyrant. By allowing her to treat me like this and constantly giving in to her - I was in a way an accomplice to her worst behavior. What I needed to do was appeal to the best of her by not allowing her to be abusive to me.

Am  I acting in my mother's best interest by her by letting her treat me poorly and appeasing her?  Even if it doesn't make her happy- what is the best thing to do for her?

You do want the best for your wife. So don't enable her to be a tyrant. Set boundaries with love. "I am going to take a break and collect my thoughts before we continue this conversation so I can speak more calmly."

[formflier]

It will likely take some trial and error to get the words as best they can be.

I eventually settled on things like this.

"I'm not going to be able to continue this conversation with threats between us."

1.  I...own it.

2.  State what I can't do.

3.  State the reason with no blame or assignment (threats)

4.  And I mention the relationship (us).

Remember, the fewer words the better.

Best,

FF

[maxsterling]

It will likely take some trial and error to get the words as best they can be.

I eventually settled on things like this.

"I'm not going to be able to continue this conversation with threats between us."

1.  I...own it.

2.  State what I can't do.

3.  State the reason with no blame or assignment (threats)

4.  And I mention the relationship (us).

Remember, the fewer words the better.

Best,

FF

Excellent.  And I need to do this at the beginning when the "conversation" starts to go sour.  The problem is, I get exhausted quickly, especially after dealing with daily rages, constant negative attitude, constant complaints, etc.  It's hard to have the energy to say things calmly at that point. 

Saying what you wrote above will not be taken well, and I will be mocked, for enforcing a personal boundary.  Even if I use "I" and never "you", her interpretation is selfishness and dismissiveness of her issues on my part.  The accusation (and subsequent name calling) then becomes that I am weak for needing a break.  I don't think the exact words matter too much here as long as I keep the focus on me and follow through on my needs.  Eventually, she may learn.  I know we discussed this stuff in MC, but W is not one to respect boundaries.  Even last night she wanted the keep me up arguing the same old stuff over and over again when I was half asleep. 

[Cat Familiar]

Being mocked, told that you’re selfish, or weak—that’s all bullying. I’ve found the best response is a one word question, making direct eye contact. “So?” or “And?”

[Notwendy]

It takes practice Max. Sometimes it won't go perfectly- but if you are consistent with boundaries you get better at it.

You might want to look at the book "The Verbally  Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans. She lists all the forms of verbal abuse and has suggestions for how to respond. One of them is to look at the person and just say "what?" as if you were perplexed that they said that. In her books the verbal abuser is male, but it could be either male or female - as in your case. It's not about BPD specficially but it is helpful.

Also in your mind, substitute "Pink Elephant" for when she calls you selfish or weak for taking a break. If someone called you a pink elephant would you worry about it, or dwell on that, or try to JADE that you are not? I hope not because you are certain you aren't one. Can calling you a pink elephant make it true? She can call you anything she wants- but you don't have to buy into it as if it were true.

[khibomsis]

Max, you are getting there. Every day you do something for yourself is a victory 

I wouldn't pay too much attention to what she says. Normally I would say listen to a BPD for the truth that lies behind their words, but in this case the abuse sounds so severe it is probably better to ignore them. It sounds as if you will be abused no matter what you do, so you might as well do the right thing for you. Enjoy the peace

Notwendy, loving the Pink Elephant trick !

[maxsterling]

Max, you are getting there. Every day you do something for yourself is a victory 

I wouldn't pay too much attention to what she says. Normally I would say listen to a BPD for the truth that lies behind their words, but in this case the abuse sounds so severe it is probably better to ignore them. It sounds as if you will be abused no matter what you do, so you might as well do the right thing for you. Enjoy the peace

Notwendy, loving the Pink Elephant trick !

Abused no matter what I do.  For sure.  Today she was mad about something in the other room that I had absolutely nothing to do with.  Yet she was yelling out blame and calling me names from the other side of the house.  That is unapproachable.  I ignored it. 

This may be TMI, but the last time W went on this much of an abuse cycle directed towards me was a few years ago.  I wound up losing a bunch of weight unexpectedly and developing rather strong prostate pain.  After going to the urologist, seeing several doctors, imaging, tests, etc, it was finally determined that this was the effect of stress.  How did they know?  Nothing conclusive from any test, and the urologist on a hunch gave me Valium for a week to see if the pain went away.  Sure enough it did. 

Right now, I can feel that pain coming back.  That's a reminder that I need to avoid exposure to this stress and take care of myself.