What to do when W threatens divorce

[maxsterling]

This isn't the first time it has happened.  W is upset because after she raged at me in the bedroom for 15 minutes, I said I was going outside to check on the 4 year olds.  Her interpretation:  my actions were passive aggressive imply that she is a negligent mother.  My reality:  4 year olds should not be left outside by themselves for 15 minutes without someone so much as looking outside.  The initial rage regarding the toys in the yard has now re-focused on the action of me wanting to check on the kids.  Looking after the kids was the right thing to do.

W now went to call a divorce lawyer, real estate agent, etc.  This is not the first time she demand I sell the house.  My feeling?  Let her call who she wants and not interfere.  I am not sure what she wants from me - but she implies that she wants me to beg her to stay.  My feeling is to not give into that - don't play the game.  Thoughts here?  Even a conversation about it goes nowhere, but W is unwilling to *not* have the conversation - even at midnight.  Last night was another night of little sleep.  Today plan was to work from the office, but W woke up complaining about her health and said she may need help with the kids.  I feel an obligation to the kids to stay home.

Yesterday afternoon W did invite over a real estate agent that we had spoken with a year ago (without discussing this with me first).  Not sure if it is manipulation, her wanting immediate answers, wanting to feel empowered, or just doesn't trust me.  Again, I am not sure what to do here.  I don't think playing this game is wise, but legally the house is mine so once the agent was here I felt I needed to talk to her.  It was actually useful to me to talk to the agent because I was able to ask my own questions about options and the current market.  Moving has been on the table for a few years, but various reasons have not been able to take any action.  I talked with the agent about loan approval options, budgets, my concerns, etc.  W misinterpreted my questions as hesitancy, and raged at me again later over this.  

I did wind up leaving yesterday afternoon and evening to take care of myself.  Nearly impossible to have an appetite with someone raging at you all day.  In my absence, W *did* actually make dinner for herself and the kids.  It was good for me to be out of the house for about 3 hours.  I managed to eat, drive around, and have a nice little stroll in a neighborhood that I grew up in.  Without going into details, it was a really nice thing for me to do, and in some ways was grateful that wife's rage gave me the opportunity to do that.  I do have a T scheduled for next Tuesday.  

Back to the topic - how do I respond to W's divorce/moving threats?  I feel drained, and would rather just not respond to them until I can take care of myself and recharge.  I feel so drained and hurt from the verbal abuse that I don't even want to approach that can of worms because 100% guarantee the conversation will be exhausting and unproductive, laced with more verbal abuse.  The reality is I need to be away from this right now.  I have resources to stay at a hotel or possibly with friends a few days.  That is what I did in the past before we had kids.  W really has no resources.  

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

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[PearlsBefore]

Sometimes I complain about the BPDs in my life, too often in fact - so I'm going to take this opportunity to lighten your mood with a funny story about a time my nearest pwBPD actually ended up being the world's most begrudging good-sport. Will it resolve your dilemma? No, but it might put a smile on your face

So we were packing our bags for a couple months living out of backpacks; all the checklists prepared and edited, everything squeezed down to its smallest. A discussion about one of her friends who she believed had stolen some of clothing for self-gratifying purposes ended with me repeating my consistent advice the "friend" was a loser and shouldn't really be invited over if he was doing that sort of thing. It got her in a bad mood - he was her "bestie"...he just had some proclivities. Sigh.

Anyways, the mood now sour - she flew into a rage when I pointed out she'd asked me literally that afternoon to go out and buy X to replace Y for her saying Y was not going to be used, but was now packing both X and Y (living out of a backpack for months, every gram counts). I stayed calm but that only angered her more; she was shoving and battering but not overly violent. Anyways, she ended up storming out of the house with a parting shot that if I cared so much about everything fitting in the bag and keeping it under the airport weight limit then I should pack the gorram thing myself and she was never coming home if I didn't do it myself instead of expecting her to do it and then criticizing her, etc, etc, etc. (Men, we all see where this is going, right?)

So she returns home some hours later, I've finished packing for both of us - even being considerate enough to remember the extra toiletries she'd need that she hadn't listed, etc...but of course the first words out of her mouth are "Okay, let's go pack". And of course my response is "No problem, already done, you said I should do it myself and that would teach me a lesson, so I did". She snarled a few times and said I should've known she wasn't serious, but after five minutes she did laugh and self-effacingly admit that she hadn't really left much room for argument and I laughed and admitted it had been music to my ears and if only I knew the secret to getting the response of "DO IT YOUR OWN WAY" with every slammed door then I would rehearse.

Anyways, long story short - she was a good sport about it.

Long story longer? On the next overseas trip, she managed to make it to the other side of the planet before uttering the classic phrase "Ummm, you know all the traveller's cheques you gave me to hold onto right before the flight? Yeah, I, ummm, I think they might be in the cupholder between the seats back in America".  Good times, good times.

[khibomsis]

Max, she is upping the ante because you have started setting boundaries. If she threatens divorce because you went out for dinner by yourself, then what does she have left to threaten? Nothing. Expect the emotional weather to get worse and focus on what you are doing for yourself.
Pearls Before, I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Life in the Twilight Zone...

[once removed]

I am not sure what she wants from me - but she implies that she wants me to beg her to stay.

what are her words? what would her version be?

do you want a divorce?

[maxsterling]

Long story longer? On the next overseas trip, she managed to make it to the other side of the planet before uttering the classic phrase "Ummm, you know all the traveller's cheques you gave me to hold onto right before the flight? Yeah, I, ummm, I think they might be in the cupholder between the seats back in America".  Good times, good times.

LOL.  Once you can step outside them, these stories can be pretty comical.   was dating a woman for awhile who was probably classic NPD.  When she got intoxicated, her behavior would suddenly switch to being quite bizarre.  One time she called me up freaking out saying someone was trying to kidnap her son, and asked if I would go to this woman's house to help get him back.  I picked her up (she was intoxicated) and drove to the woman's house.  Turns out the son had spent the night at his friend's house and friend's mom told my GF that she would watch her son until she sobered up enough to drive over.  On the way back she started accusing her 11 year old son of giving too much information to his friend's mom, and conspiring in his own kidnapping.  Yeah, it was pretty scary at the time, but here 10 years later I can laugh at how strange that was.  

[maxsterling]

what are her words? what would her version be?

do you want a divorce?

To paraphrase:
W: (long winded lecture about how she has called an attorney, how she has no resources, money, etc, accusations that I lied to her, gaslighted her, name calling...)
Me: Shock, silence, "I am not sure what I want to say here."
W: "I TELL YOU ALL THAT AND THAT IS ALL YOU HAVE TO SAY?  OBVIOUSLY YOU DON'T CARE THAT I WANT TO LEAVE!"

Do I want a divorce?  Not my preferred option and probably not within my control.  But right now I am not really in the proper head space to know what I want here.  But it is an option I have explored off and on the past 4 years.

[Notwendy]

This is a very interesting situation and I will share my own insights.

Being completely dependent on someone also comes with resentment of the dependence.

Co dependent behavior actually results in resentment, both for the person who is doing the "helping too much" and the person who is on the receiving end. It's actually controlling behavior in the form of "helping too much".

My BPD mother is about as dependent as your wife is, and yet, she also resents the dependence in a way. It makes sense because being dependent takes a toll on self esteem. One doesn't ever have the opportunity to feel accomplishment if someone is doing so much for them.

So while it may appear my mother has it easy- there's really nothing anyone needs her to do. She gets to do what she wants. But if someone isn't contributing they don't feel good about themselves. So helping "less" without causing harm to the kids of course, can help with this.

The divorce threats may be upping the ante, or they may be expressing frustration at being dependent.

Your wife might threaten divorce but I don't think she could really manage on her own as things are now.  Yet, she's free to call whoever she likes. However, lawyer bills are expensive. You can tell her call who she wants but how can you not be liable for the cost of that?

Also, if you aren't selling the house then don't engage in any discussions with real estate agents. It's validating the invalid. It sounds like you covered up for your wife with them. If the real estate agent sees that the owner didn't call them and is miffed- that's on her. Let her deal with the agent she called.

You saw that when you were not there, your wife could fix dinner for her and the kids. Good. Reinforce that "Honey that is great. I need to catch up on work at the office, so I will be out at dinner again" and out you go...

[maxsterling]

Wendy - There is a fine line to all this - some things that I need to do to take care of myself or the kids are also taking care of her. 

The real estate stuff is the same way.  Moving is something we talked about ever since the kids were born.  It is something I want to do.  Bad credit has thus far prevented it.  I'm trying to be the stable voice here, W resents that (it comes across that I know more than her - and that is true b/c W has never been involved in buying a house).  The stable voice:  buying a new house is not like other purchases, and there are many things to consider.  Buying a house is also not something you do based upon emotion.  W wants to make a decision based upon emotion.  I feel she is not willing to listen to my concerns, and takes my concerns as patronizing.  My concerns are mainly money, not just in the present tense, but in the future tense as well.  To her: "I need to move NOW and what can we do to make that happen?"  Me saying we have to get approved, learn what we can afford, and picking something out is way more complicated than buying a new sofa.  This invalidates W emotionally - so I have no issues with her talking to an agent so that she can get the answers from someone else.  My participation with the agent was to ensure the appropriate questions were asked.  My gut feeling here is that more than likely this will not be financially possible for us until the end of 2021, at least, unless we settle for something that is not much better than the situation we are in. 

I gave her clear steps to moving, discussing them in front of the Agent:

1) March first is the earliest we can apply for a loan.  This was told to us by a broker last year.  I told her I would apply then, but not before.  Over the past year I have reminded W of this several times.
2) Only after we get approved, we then work on getting a firm estimate on what we can sell the current house for.  Now we know how much we are approved for and how much we can put down, and then have a budget that is more than just a guess. 
3) ONLY after all that, we can then begin looking for another house.  I have stated previously to W that I don't want to "future trip" about this other than think about wants/needs.  No walk thrus, no Zillow lists, etc.
4) We make offers and see how it goes. 

I expressed to W that there are no guarantees to any of this, and it is very possible that we are here another year, and we should also consider upgrades to our current house.  She interprets this as negativity rather than reality.

W thinks if we aren't approved, we should just sell and rent (emotion talking).  It's very difficult to communicate how that would not solve any problems and would be a bad financial decision, considering the rent would likely be just as high as our current mortgage payment.  We would then rent, blow some of the equity we need for a down payment while home values appreciate, and then probably be stuck renting for a long time.  Again - there is no hope for ME to communicate this to W without her interpreting this as negativity from my end.  Let her do her own research.

Of course this all depends on whether she wants to separate.  If that is the case, I need to let her make those decisions on her own about where she wants to live.  I need to not give into her demands that I be involved in that process.  I also need to explore what I would want/need in that situation.  My feeling is stay in this house for now, let her find her own place, then discuss logistics. 

[formflier]

Divorce threats used to be huge in my relationship.  Then when I stopped listening my wife would "forget" papers she printed off...in the printer, about divorce and all that.

Once...I got a call from a "divorce attorney" that was returning a phone call to a home telephone number.

Here is the thing...this is not about divorce, it seems to be about her controlling you.

The night before didn't work, so the next morning "I'm concerned about my health and need help with kids"...she controlled you.

Then in a future time you left and she was actually able to handle it (making dinner I believe).

There is also an excellent point made by Notwendy about people that are depending resenting it.

Max..I'm glad you have started posting again.


I'm glad you have agreed to couples and individual T.


I think you need to keep the goals simple for this.

1.  No more rage for me.  (me as in you Max.  My wife can rage but I won't be part of it.)  Dude...I cringed at the 15 minute thing...then to think you didn't have much sleep. 

I think everything else should be taken off the table (even if you don't explicitly say so)

Don't say no or yes to selling the house or any other plans.  "That's important, I'm not ready to say yes to that."  (then drop it)

Oh..realtor stuff...let your wife call her realtors and sell her houses.

Same for you.  Don't mix those streams.

Best,

FF

[once removed]

Me: Shock, silence, "I am not sure what I want to say here."
W: "I TELL YOU ALL THAT AND THAT IS ALL YOU HAVE TO SAY?  OBVIOUSLY YOU DON'T CARE THAT I WANT TO LEAVE!"

i dont mean to be cute here.

i had a close female friend when i was in high school and she did this to all her boyfriends. she didnt have bpd, but she was, lets call it high maintenance. ironically, perhaps, i learned a lot from her.

even in context, its hard to read what exactly your wife is saying.

is she making dramatic moves in order to try to get you to "see the light"? she might be.

is she making dramatic moves because shes increasingly done with the relationship just hasnt quite pulled the handle? she might be.

is she triggered over your reaction and just going off? she might be.

based on what youve told us, im inclined to believe its probably some mix of all three.

if you want to save the relationship, its wise not to overreact in terms of taking it seriously, but its not the best place to be, either. frankly speaking, a lot of the advice in this thread is based around tough love concepts and teaching your wife to respect you, and that can get rather complicated when you are approaching, or for practical purposes, in a reversing a breakup situation.

Do I want a divorce?  Not my preferred option and probably not within my control.

bottom line? she can feel this attitude and shes reacting to it.

But right now I am not really in the proper head space to know what I want here

how can we help you get there?

[Notwendy]

It seems there are two issues here- W threatening divorce and wanting to move. Are they linked? That is, if you don't buy us a new house- I will divorce you. Or is it- I want a divorce lets buy a new house. Because the second one doesn't make sense. If she wants a divorce the two of you can't be living in a new house.

If it's a "give me what I want or I will divorce you" then that's a tactic to get what she wants. And if it works for the new house, that reinforces the ability to threaten divorce in order to get what she wants and it will happen again- because she knows it works.

Each time you counteract her wishes with logic, then she uses the divorce threat.

Yes, she's placing her "wants" on emotion not actual fact. She can't get the house she wants on her own. She needs you to get it - so she's going to get you to do it.

This is a form of manipulation then. She herself doesn't have the power to get what she wants but she can badger and threat to get you to give her what she wants, and so this works for her.

How do you stop the threats? When they don't work for her anymore. Seriously- I don't think she could manage on her own from how you describe her. I don't think she's likely to divorce.

As to the house, if you already have poor credit, what are you doing trying to buy a larger house anyway? Why take on a new loan if you are already financially stretched? How about some reality as natural consequences? Go ahead and let her apply for the loan, get rejected.  No credit, no house. Stop JADE ing, this is reality. She calls a lawyer about divorce? Let the lawyer tell her the retainer fee and see what that costs.

Her thinking may be emotion based, but how much money is available is not.

When you become the barrier to her wants, you become the target of her frustration and anger at not getting what she wants. But the reality is- a larger house is not affordable right now. Yes, there are things you need to provide for the children and this will include taking care of these things for her too. I know it's hard to say no to her and face the consequences of her being frusrated and upset at you, but to continue to provide what she wants above your means is also not sustainable or realistic.

[maxsterling]

I think my W goes through phases where her motivations are 100% emotion or instinctual reaction.  I think I have been dealing with a lot of that lately.  I think the "divorce" talk is mostly that.  There is no rational thought behind it, no conscious manipulation attempt, it is just an instinctual reaction to feeling "trapped", much like one would run when he/she sees a bear.  The way I handle those situations really seems to have little bearing on whether it happens again.  It's not like W has time to think, "well that didn't work, I will try something else next time".  I think it is so deeply ingrained in her instinct that when she is in such a phase it comes out. 

It literally is like a switch flips.  I am not sure if this is typical with BPD, or only with severe forms, or if it is something else.  But after dealing with several days of rage, it's like that switch flipped again.  She seems to be aware of her behavior the past few days, and is making a conscious effort again to change it.  Probably something internal scared her, or it could have been me reacting differently.  She stops short of actually apologizing for her past behavior, though. 

[Notwendy]

I made up a name for this phenomenon. I call it the "dry erase board" where suddenly "I'm good now and we won't ever bring up the things I just did and said but see I'm good now and you need to be good now too".

Until the next time...

I think from observing this, the rage is like a reset button for all the feelings that can't be dealt with- so they all come out--- at you. After that, she feels better and assumes you need to be feeling better too.

My other description of this is like vomit. A little kid eats too much junk food and gets a stomach ache. Then they throw up. After that, they feel better and run off to play as usual. Except now the parent has to clean up the vomit.

PwBPD have difficulty managing emotions and so they tend to project them. Your wife "feeling vomited" on to you. She feels better now but you are now covered in "emotion vomit".

I don't expect an apology- I don't think pwBPD can do that. I think it involves so much shame and discomfort that they can't. Don't even bring it up. To get along, one is expected to go along with it, and really there isn't much choice as discussing it would not likely resolve things.

I think the switch flip does exist and have seen it many times. As kids we learned well how to navigate BPD mother's moods. When she's dissociated and a rage is on the way- or is happening, her face looks different. Her cheeks get a bit flushed and she has this look in her eyes. It's a vacant look to it. Once it's over for her, it's over. Sometimes I think she remembers and other times I think she is so dissociated when this is happening she may have some idea but isn't fully aware of her behavior.

[PearlsBefore]

She seems to be aware of her behavior the past few days, and is making a conscious effort again to change it.  Probably something internal scared her, or it could have been me reacting differently.  She stops short of actually apologizing for her past behavior, though. 

Longest I ever saw of actual "contrite, focused on trying to be better" was ten days - which is not to say there's a violent rage in under ten days every other time, just that she's usually in her sullen "I'm fine, there's nothing wrong with me, doctors don't know anything, meds are stupid, you're stupid, I'm happy and healthy and fine" misery - but this was ten days of her trying to win "World's Most Improved pwBPD" and prove to herself that she was capable of high-functioning and such (following a theatrical instance of strangling herself with a belt in front of the kids). That was back in 2016. We both still reference it occasionally though as simply "those ten days".

[Scared2Lose]

I'm happy that your W is able to see her behavior for what it is. Every time I hinted at the idea that she may be acting borderlin-e, my W accuses me of pathologizing her. However, if I'm holding my ground, I'm not considerate enough of her condition.

[maxsterling]

I'm happy that your W is able to see her behavior for what it is. Every time I hinted at the idea that she may be acting borderlin-e, my W accuses me of pathologizing her. However, if I'm holding my ground, I'm not considerate enough of her condition.

It's rare, and usually happens when something goes WAY over the top.  Not that this changes much.  Example:
I've called 911 on my W probably half a dozen times for suicide threats.  I am told that is what you are supposed to do, and I have no regrets on this.  Of course, I am rarely satisfied with the emergency response - they send police and basically tell me they can do nothing unless W tells them that she wants to commit suicide.  But W brings this up all the time when she is angry at me, about how I over react to her trauma and mental illness, with the exception of the time she actually attempted.  But a few weeks ago, she was in the back yard being very loud and angry and violent, and someone else (a neighbor or passerby) called police.  For now, I think that was a wake up call for my W that it's not just me that thinks this is serious.  However, within a few days, she was raging at me in the yard the same way again.  And I am willing to bet in the future she will bring up how I called 911 on her. 

It's a no-win.  If I suggest she call a crisis line or her T, I am getting involved in her business and blaming her for the problem.  If I don't respond to her sometimes 4-5 per day "I want to kill myself" comments, then I am insensitive.  Sometimes I go several days without hearing a positive comment from my W about anything.  It drags on me, and I can't respond to every negative comment. 

[Notwendy]

Well then don't respond to every negative comment. This isn't a win-win situation. You are not able to soothe her feelings- they are hers to soothe and one comment won't do it.

I think there is the ability to sense when they have "gone too far" with the behavior. I think the difference is that "too far" can vary.  For your wife, it's when someone calls the police. This however, was a natural consequence of her behavior. If you do X, this will happen.

She isn't likely to "like" the consequences, or be happy about them. When your kids want candy for dinner and you say no, they may have a temper tantrum. Are you a bad person because you don't give them candy for dinner? Or did you say no because giving them candy for dinner is not in their best interest- whether they like it or not?

If you are trying to make your wife happy with you by appeasing her- are you acting in her best interest really? For instance- not calling 911 when she makes suicide threats, because she's going to be mad at you- then she doesn't experience the natural consequence of her behavior won't learn from that.


 

[Cat Familiar]

My ex husband used to make suicide threats. When our relationship was nearing its end, he threatened to kill himself when I was hundreds of miles away, dealing with my father’s funeral arrangements.

He said he’d kill himself if I didn’t come home immediately.

I had just spent the day at the funeral home, so all the questions about various options were fresh in my mind. First, I asked how he planned on killing himself. Then, burial or cremation? Next, did he want his mother and sisters to have a viewing? And on and on...

He never again threatened suicide, and had the circumstances been different, I probably wouldn’t have responded the way I did, but I was in that moment, completely overwhelmed and done with his drama.

Some time after our divorce, I heard from his girlfriend that he was “holding her hostage with suicide threats.” Why wouldn’t he? The manipulation worked on me for many years.

[Notwendy]

While I think any threat should be taken seriously, I agree with Cat that there could also be a secondary gain from the threats.

This has been a fear for us now that BPD mom is on her own. There were threats and a couple of attempts. There were also many divorce threats which didn't happen.

However, we decided our only option is to call 911 since none of her children live close enough to get there before 911 could. So far, she has not made threats to us thank goodness but if she did, we'd call 911 and she knows that. There is no other way for us to interevene and so there's no other incentive to make the threats if there were one.

I wonder what secondary gain your wife is getting from the threats. She may not like it if you call 911 but a truly suicidal person needs professional intervention, and you can't provide that.