Blame for lack of emotional intimacy

[Depression = 72% of members]

Just keep your boundary that you are not going to communicate your issues face to face. Surely there will be a time when the two of you are both there with the boys. A boundary that you aren't going to speak at all face to face may not be feasable. She's putting you in this bind. If you want to see the boys, she has to be there too. Then you have to be face to face.

So perhaps a better reply now that I have thought about it would be " I don't wish to discuss our issues face to face and especially in front of the boys. However, we are both their parents and if you insist on being with the boys as well, I'm sure they would love your company too. I don't wish to have discussions about our issues or argue in their presence"

Perhaps that's a boundary you can keep.

I set this boundary today and wrote it down on our agreements list. I let her know i don't want to talk about marriage topics in front of the boys, she agreed to that. We agreed no anger blame and abuse, 4 to 5 nights a week of connection, finish the evenings on a light note, reminding gently in case an agreement is forgotten, no walking away however timeouts are permitted with the promise of coming back, in front of the kids only connection on light topics that connect us, no unslicited advice giving, no psychoanalysis of one another or our FOOs, etc.

Are these types of agreements healthy?

I also prefer not to talk about the history of the situation with my FOO as this can end up in a lot of dissatisfaction for her, I think because the pain runs so deep for her that no amount of validation helps. However she didn't agree to that yet. I prefer she talk to someone else about it as it is the primary topic that creates turmoil between us and for the boys.

[truthdevotee]

Just keep your boundary that you are not going to communicate your issues face to face. Surely there will be a time when the two of you are both there with the boys. A boundary that you aren't going to speak at all face to face may not be feasable. She's putting you in this bind. If you want to see the boys, she has to be there too. Then you have to be face to face.

So perhaps a better reply now that I have thought about it would be " I don't wish to discuss our issues face to face and especially in front of the boys. However, we are both their parents and if you insist on being with the boys as well, I'm sure they would love your company too. I don't wish to have discussions about our issues or argue in their presence"

Perhaps that's a boundary you can keep.

I set this boundary today and wrote it down on our agreements list. I let her know i don't want to talk about marriage topics in front of the boys, she agreed to that. We agreed no anger blame and abuse, 4 to 5 nights a week of connection, finish the evenings on a light note, reminding gently in case an agreement is forgotten, no walking away however timeouts are permitted with the promise of coming back, in front of the kids only connection on light topics that connect us, no unslicited advice giving, no psychoanalysis of one another or our FOOs, etc.

Are these types of agreements healthy?

I also prefer not to talk about the history of the situation with my FOO as this can end up in a lot of dissatisfaction for her, I think because the pain runs so deep for her that no amount of validation helps. However she didn't agree to that yet. I prefer she talk to someone else about it as it is the primary topic that creates turmoil between us and for the boys.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[truthdevotee]

Signs that the agreements we wrote down won't be taken seriously this morning. She now says she doesn't agree with them all. So I need to continue to keep the boundary of no talking about our stuff in front of the children.

Since I wasnt really setting a boundary with the lawyer thing but using it like a threat and a warning, I sense I've probably made things worse? Short term she's much calmer she to fear of loss, long term it probably caused more anguish for her.

[truthdevotee]

You are in a long standing pattern with her and there's a push pull to this. I think even someone with BPD can sense when they have pushed too far. This will cause fear and the response is to pull back, even start to "push" for the relationship again. In the push pull pattern, once the pull has been successful, the pattern is likely to resume. It's odd that BPD affects the most intimate relationships- and so she feels safe enough in a way to rage at you. When she's sensed she's gone too far, she may not.

You are part of this as you do the other stepsr in the pattern. But if you don't want to be in the pattern, you need to change the steps. This isn't easy as you don't know the steps yet, but a goal is to not push, not pull but hold a calm middle ground and your boudaries.

You pushed back- with the lawyer statement. She then quieted down and you put the lawyer on hold. Do you see how you are still following the steps? You pushed, she pulled, you stopped.

It isn't wrong that you "fought back" but you didn't "fight back" with a boundary you could hold. The lawyer statement will be an empty threat now since you didn't follow through. This doesn't mean you should go through with the lawyer, especially if you don't want to. If you were determined to go through with that, it would be based on you, not her reaction. Her reaction would not change your decision.

Also don't base your actions on her words in the moment. She said get out, you got out. Now she says come back, you cancel the Airbnb?  It's good you stood up for yourself. The "this is not how marriage works for me" is a great statement as it reflects YOU, it says nothing about her. Stay focused on that.

If you keep the flat or not, make this about you. Keeping the flat allows you to have some quiet space for work. If this is enough of a reason for you then keep it. Keeping the flat to teach her a lesson or to make her change probably isn't.

Be good to yourself. I also jumped in with both feet when setting boundaries with my mother. The result was total chaos and insanity and a hugely mean response from her. But we start somewhere and it's how we learn. It may not be perfect. This is why one boundary, one issue, at a time is easier to manage. You did the one with the parents, you got a quiet place to work. Now suddenly you've added the lawyer, time with the boys all this stuff-- over one thing- calling your mother.

Stay focused on that boundary. "I know we have issues honey, but I want to speak to my parents". I have leased a place to work as I need a quiet space to work". And when she rages at you. "I don't wish to be spoken to like this" and walk away.

I read this again Notwendy. It's very helpful. I see how I stepped away from focusing on myself and started to use the lawyer thing to change my wife's behaviour. Subjectively, with the lawyer thing I was acting out anger even if it was calm anger and via email. When I set true boundaries, its much more like "I feel therefore I need..."

[truthdevotee]

I just read this in the Stop Caretaking book :

Keep in mind that you cannot enforce a boundary or limit that you have no power over. You hold power primarily over what you will do if the boundary is breached. It is also helpful to set limits only about the things that are really important enough to warrant the amount of energy and emotional strength that it will require you to follow through.

Since I never really wanted to follow through with pursuing a joint or full custody, via court, it was empty and a fear based threat rather than a boundary and limit based on self love.

[truthdevotee]

This way, he moved slowly back into a more social life for himself, even though his wife wouldn’t join him and didn’t really like what he was doing. He stayed calm and continued doing what he had decided to do. Your BP/NP partner might complain that you are gone too much, that you don’t love him or her anymore, that you are being mean or selfish, and so on, so it is very important that you have solidly established your confidence and esteem and let go of thinking that the BP/NP’s words and thoughts mean anything about you. The BP/NP’s anger and accusations will be less intimidating when you know that it is only his or her mental illness talking and really isn’t about you.

[khibomsis]

truthdevotee, you are doing OK. At last she is realizing that you won't be intimidated back into the old you. Well done!

Boundaries indeed are things we do for ourselves, to make our relationships livable. I would have hated to see for you to rolemodel for your sons that it is OK not to phone your mother. So I am glad you are showing a more positive example. I know it is hard to feel positive when you are so tired and mentally exhausted, but there is progress.

I hope you are able to take the flat for the rest of the month. Preschool is still closed right? You need to be able to work and rest, it will be easier to think clearer when your needs for rest are met.  There is nothing wrong with asking your boss if the company will pay for it - all she can say is no.

I think seeing a lawyer is a great idea in and of itself, i.e. not as a threat but as a thing worth doing. As you can see you cannot trust her word from day to day. This is a BPD thing - diminished executive function. So it is good even to get your existing situation in writing.

Attack is the best form of defense. Meaning, in the context of the bettering board, I would suggest continue shaping your life into something that is the the way you want it, livable for you and a positive relationship rolemodel for your boys. Don't stop now just when boundaries are working. Your wife is more likely to leave your FOO alone if she has other things to occupy her mind.

[truthdevotee]

The rages are very intense and full of hatred and the desire to hurt. So I have no idea why just 3 hours later I want to hope things might magically change... That's a sort of insanity... Is that common?

I think it is and I don't really know why this is. I do think that the rages serve as a relief/reset function. I have described it like a kid who ate too much candy. They then have a stomach ache and throw up. After that, they feel fine, like it never happened.

I have noticed that after a rage, the person is most lucid, and clear- it's then that we see the "person" as we wish we saw them all the time but it gives us hope. Like the kid with the stomach ache- they feel fine, the bad feelings are out and to them they are gone. They expect us to feel the same way - act as if it never happened.

It's the oddest thing to observe actually. But it seems to me to be a cycle.

Thanks Notwendy.

I just read this in the book -
Wearing you down is one way the BP/NP discourages you from doing what you want.

I wonder if in my partner's case this is what's happening, as well as some desire for revenge in getting me to feel some emotional pain because she is feeling it.

[Notwendy]

Wearing you down is one way the BP/NP discourages you from doing what you want.


For me, it is helpful to look at behaviors through the Karpman triangle. My personal opinion is that someone with BPD sees things through victim mode. This leaves two other roles for other people in their lives- rescuer or persecutor. Also know that people can take on any of these roles, and even with themselves. It doesn't need three people. Two people can take on these roles with each other. You can also get on this "triangle" in any of the roles. The end result though is feeling like a victim.

How does one avoid the triangle? It's not easy as it can be a habit. You've been a rescuer type but also feel like a victim having given up so much.

That "keep your cool" middle ground is a start and also some self awareness about how you may be contributing to the drama.

What I have observed ( and this is just my observation, not any kind of professional opinion) is that drama starts when one takes victim position. If that's the person with BPD's position, there can't be another one. To them, you are the rescuer.

I think the "revenge" you speak of is a part of the triangle. If you were to truly believe that someone was hurting you, you would hurt them back- even as a part of defending yourself. I saw a statement once that said "hurting people hurt others" and I think there's some truth to this. This doesn't mean she isn't accountable for her actions. She is. It's just if you see it as "revenge" this is in a way "victim perspective"- she's doing it to you. But it is easier to not react back to it ( staying on the triangle) if you see it as about her. If you react by feeling hurt yourself- it's more triangle.

I found it helpful to see things from the perspective that- this triangle is a pattern, along with the push-pull pattern and to see where I also have my own roles in this. This doesn't mean you act remotely or coldly to your wife- but that you respond from thinking clearly, not react emotionally to her behavior or what she says and try to stay mindful of when you are taking on a role in the "triangle" in your interactions.

It doesn't mean not being helpful or caring. But catch your motivation. Are you doing something out of fear of her reaction or from a decision that you are willing to do it? The same action can be considered part of the drama ( co-dependent) or not, it's your motivation and emotions behind it.

There isn't anything wrong with consulting a lawyer for information. It's a good idea to know you legal rights in a relationship. What you do with this information is your decision. Like you said- using it in anger as a way to get her to back down is making this about her, not you, and you then take on persecutor role in the triangle. Using it for peace of mind to keep your cool when she makes threats is probably more valuable. She might say " I will take the boys and you won't see them" but if you know legally that you have rights to see them, then this isn't as scary a threat. You won't react to it as much.


The "wearing you down" to keep you from doing what you want maybe more about them managing their own fears and anxiety than the thing you want to do. "Don't talk to your family" may be more about "if you talk to your family you will tell them about me and they will encourage you to leave" or "you will talk to them about me and I will feel shame". Sometimes the thing they are objecting to isn't the actual reason but something they fear might happen if you do it.

[truthdevotee]

truthdevotee, you are doing OK. At last she is realizing that you won't be intimidated back into the old you. Well done!

Boundaries indeed are things we do for ourselves, to make our relationships livable. I would have hated to see for you to rolemodel for your sons that it is OK not to phone your mother. So I am glad you are showing a more positive example. I know it is hard to feel positive when you are so tired and mentally exhausted, but there is progress.

I just saw your message, thanks so so much. I'm extremely depleted today. So tired... Its great to have your support...

I hope you are able to take the flat for the rest of the month. Preschool is still closed right? You need to be able to work and rest, it will be easier to think clearer when your needs for rest are met.  There is nothing wrong with asking your boss if the company will pay for it - all she can say is no.

Yeah they're still closed.. My employer says she can't... Also she is noticing something else is going on, intuiting that it is not a physical sickness problem in my home. I'll write an email to explain, I guess. I haven't kept this flat in the end because it was too far away to walk and my wife blocked the car (she is the official owner) by threatening to call the police if I used it. I will find an Airbnb private room for work, walking distance.

I think seeing a lawyer is a great idea in and of itself, i.e. not as a threat but as a thing worth doing. As you can see you cannot trust her word from day to day. This is a BPD thing - diminished executive function. So it is good even to get your existing situation in writing.

Thanks... Yeah, I just can't trust... Even her memory of events is so so different to mine.

Attack is the best form of defense. Meaning, in the context of the bettering board, I would suggest continue shaping your life into something that is the the way you want it, livable for you and a positive relationship rolemodel for your boys. Don't stop now just when boundaries are working. Your wife is more likely to leave your FOO alone if she has other things to occupy her mind.

Thanks... Somehow I've lost focus last two days. I've started getting drawn into long listening sessions. I'm not feeling any desire for intimacy at this point

[truthdevotee]

Wearing you down is one way the BP/NP discourages you from doing what you want.


For me, it is helpful to look at behaviors through the Karpman triangle. My personal opinion is that someone with BPD sees things through victim mode. This leaves two other roles for other people in their lives- rescuer or persecutor. Also know that people can take on any of these roles, and even with themselves. It doesn't need three people. Two people can take on these roles with each other. You can also get on this "triangle" in any of the roles. The end result though is feeling like a victim.

How does one avoid the triangle? It's not easy as it can be a habit. You've been a rescuer type but also feel like a victim having given up so much.

That "keep your cool" middle ground is a start and also some self awareness about how you may be contributing to the drama.

What I have observed ( and this is just my observation, not any kind of professional opinion) is that drama starts when one takes victim position. If that's the person with BPD's position, there can't be another one. To them, you are the rescuer.

I think the "revenge" you speak of is a part of the triangle. If you were to truly believe that someone was hurting you, you would hurt them back- even as a part of defending yourself. I saw a statement once that said "hurting people hurt others" and I think there's some truth to this. This doesn't mean she isn't accountable for her actions. She is. It's just if you see it as "revenge" this is in a way "victim perspective"- she's doing it to you. But it is easier to not react back to it ( staying on the triangle) if you see it as about her. If you react by feeling hurt yourself- it's more triangle.

I found it helpful to see things from the perspective that- this triangle is a pattern, along with the push-pull pattern and to see where I also have my own roles in this. This doesn't mean you act remotely or coldly to your wife- but that you respond from thinking clearly, not react emotionally to her behavior or what she says and try to stay mindful of when you are taking on a role in the "triangle" in your interactions.

It doesn't mean not being helpful or caring. But catch your motivation. Are you doing something out of fear of her reaction or from a decision that you are willing to do it? The same action can be considered part of the drama ( co-dependent) or not, it's your motivation and emotions behind it.

There isn't anything wrong with consulting a lawyer for information. It's a good idea to know you legal rights in a relationship. What you do with this information is your decision. Like you said- using it in anger as a way to get her to back down is making this about her, not you, and you then take on persecutor role in the triangle. Using it for peace of mind to keep your cool when she makes threats is probably more valuable. She might say " I will take the boys and you won't see them" but if you know legally that you have rights to see them, then this isn't as scary a threat. You won't react to it as much.


The "wearing you down" to keep you from doing what you want maybe more about them managing their own fears and anxiety than the thing you want to do. "Don't talk to your family" may be more about "if you talk to your family you will tell them about me and they will encourage you to leave" or "you will talk to them about me and I will feel shame". Sometimes the thing they are objecting to isn't the actual reason but something they fear might happen if you do it.

Thanks so much Notwendy, this is so insightful and encouraging. It gives me more clarity.

[truthdevotee]

So many of us here have had no idea what an emotionally healthy relationship is. Here’s a good overview: https://bpdfamily.com/content/characteristics-healthy-relationships

One thing comes through in all your threads: you never learned to trust yourself at a young age and have sought feedback and opinions from others.

Now you’re learning that some of the advice given, which was undoubtedly well meaning, was not appropriate for you.

And you’ve become aware at how much your wife is seeking to control you, not for your best interests, but for her own.

It’s an important step in individuation and maturation to listen to and trust our own internal feedback. And if you haven’t been doing that, it’s a leap of faith.

What I’ve found is that the more I trust myself, the clearer the internal voice becomes. Yes, mistakes and poor judgment still happen, but once one becomes aware of that, then better decisions can take place.

The important thing is to listen to your own internal wisdom.

I was just browsing the history of your posts to deepen my learning in general.

I came across this one which was posted in reply to one of the threads I started, but which i must have missed!

This is so true - so much of my learning is about trusting this inner voice.

It's so true all the advice I've been given has come from loving people with good intentions. At 34 years of age, I'm learning to consider what my own heart and mind tells me. I believe that this almost complete lack of inner trust and discernment is related to the OCD I experienced and which i take SSRI medication for. OCD was classically referred to as the "doubting disease."

I'm practicing this now... The voice of doubt appears and the "what if I'm wrong" appears in my mind, but now there's a new voice showing up - "what if I'm correct" and "I can choose to trust this feeling/thought, even though I could be mistaken, it's important to me to listen to it and let it be my guide to action"