Update on divorce, etc.

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Not only are you being "overly, overly generous and creating weird incentives," you are actively enabling and infantilizing her, and you are working against your own best interests.

Can we talk about values and goals? I hear that you think your current level and method of support will get you "someplace better" in a year, that by doing what you are doing in the way you are doing it is going to achieve your goal. Can you articulate that goal, and can you articulate the values you hold related to how you get there? Are these goals for you or for STBX? Is it your responsibility to set goals for STBX?

Because if part of your goal is to help your STBX achieve a stable and healthy life and financials, I will challenge that your current level of support is not the best way to help get her get there.

She has no need, no incentive to get a job if she expects you to support her forever in the way you have supported her in the past marriage and since the separation. If she doesn't get a job with medical benefits, you will be on the hook for her healthcare for...how long? If she doesn't get a job, what will she do when court-ordered alimony stops?

Other than the fact you don't talk to her and she no longer rages at you, there's really little in the dynamics and structure of your marriage that has changed, is there? So why should she expect anything different until she HAS to respond to changed circumstances.

When/if her funded life-style abruptly ends in an October trial, she will be significantly more at risk of panic and fear than if her lawyer has to prepare her for interim steps in response to your taking action on things like the joint account.


(Another question...do you know how much she is spending on alcohol each month? Is that an expenditure you want to enable?)

[GaGrl]

Not only are you being "overly, overly generous and creating weird incentives," you are actively enabling and infantilizing her, and you are working against your own best interests.

Can we talk about values and goals? I hear that you think your current level and method of support will get you "someplace better" in a year, that by doing what you are doing in the way you are doing it is going to achieve your goal. Can you articulate that goal, and can you articulate the values you hold related to how you get there? Are these goals for you or for STBX? Is it your responsibility to set goals for STBX?

Because if part of your goal is to help your STBX achieve a stable and healthy life and financials, I will challenge that your current level of support is not the best way to help get her get there.

She has no need, no incentive to get a job if she expects you to support her forever in the way you have supported her in the past marriage and since the separation. If she doesn't get a job with medical benefits, you will be on the hook for her healthcare for...how long? If she doesn't get a job, what will she do when court-ordered alimony stops?

Other than the fact you don't talk to her and she no longer rages at you, there's really little in the dynamics and structure of your marriage that has changed, is there? So why should she expect anything different until she HAS to respond to changed circumstances.

When/if her funded life-style abruptly ends in an October trial, she will be significantly more at risk of panic and fear than if her lawyer has to prepare her for interim steps in response to your taking action on things like the joint account.


(Another question...do you know how much she is spending on alcohol each month? Is that an expenditure you want to enable?)

[mart555]

My trajectory has been the opposite. She hasn't even pretended to play nice for a long time, and has never put anything remotely reasonable forward.

She's likely playing nice now.. 

[babyducks]

a couple of random thoughts stolencrumbs

The symptoms she had were real. This cancer is associated with something called "carcinoid syndrome." The cancer doesn't always cause "syndrome," but it can. She had pretty much all the symptoms of carcinoid syndrome. The effects were provable.

I am familiar with carcinoid syndrome and what you are describing matches my understanding of the illness with the possible exception of the tumor(s) not progressing over such a long period of time.

I don't know what to do about the joint account. I had essentially budgeted for me to be able to live without any of it until mediation. Well, that's passed and I'm pretty much out of money that's not in the joint account.  

Let's keep it simple and not do a lot of theoretical reasoning.    What's keeping you from opening an account only in your name and depositing your largest paycheck in it?    Was it that you were holding out hope for mediation?   Or something else?

Her very deepest-seated fear is to feel "poor," to lose her house, and to lose her car. .../../.. She has some money stashed away. What I know about her is that "losing" her house and money she currently has access to without some plan for the future will be very, very bad. That may be what happens, and ultimately it's not my responsibility to fix this.

No its not.    its not you responsibility to fix this.  its not on you to avoid triggering her fears.     Or to make this easier for her at your expense.     GaGrl raises a point I can't disagree with enabling and infantilizing her is working against your own best interests.    and I am hoping to turn the focus from what's best for her to what is best for you.   I am not suggesting you be cruel or harsh.     I am suggesting you take control of your own life and finances.     if I may suggest, the pattern of 'not upsetting her' by doing what she wants,  and  avoiding triggering her fears is dysfunction.   your role in ending the dysfunction is to find reasonable steps to take to break the pattern.

'ducks

[stolencrumbs]

a couple of random thoughts stolencrumbs

I am familiar with carcinoid syndrome and what you are describing matches my understanding of the illness with the possible exception of the tumor(s) not progressing over such a long period of time.

Let's keep it simple and not do a lot of theoretical reasoning.    What's keeping you from opening an account only in your name and depositing your largest paycheck in it?    Was it that you were holding out hope for mediation?   Or something else?

No its not.    its not you responsibility to fix this.  its not on you to avoid triggering her fears.     Or to make this easier for her at your expense.     GaGrl raises a point I can't disagree with enabling and infantilizing her is working against your own best interests.    and I am hoping to turn the focus from what's best for her to what is best for you.   I am not suggesting you be cruel or harsh.     I am suggesting you take control of your own life and finances.     if I may suggest, the pattern of 'not upsetting her' by doing what she wants,  and  avoiding triggering her fears is dysfunction.   your role in ending the dysfunction is to find reasonable steps to take to break the pattern.

'ducks

It was partly holding out hope for mediation, and partly not wanting to deal with the fallout. I suspect that no matter how much I gave her, it wouldn't be enough and she'd rack up lawyer fees to try to get more. And just generally not wanting to deal with it if I didn't have to.

I do get that this is dysfunctional. I guess that's something that occurred to me at mediation. Any settlement is going to involve playing into the dysfunction. And I'm the one that knows really well how to do that. I do recognize that that's what it is. For me, the question is whether it's better for me to do that one last time in order to get this done. I don't know what all of her legal options are at this point, but I'm pretty sure she's going to use them to drag this out as long as possible. My L doesn't think the trial date will change, bit he also didn't think it would take this long to get there. I think he still underestimates her ability to f things up. I know she will spend an inordinate amount of money trying to get "experts" to back her claims about her health. I can imagine her firing her lawyer if he doesn't want to play along. She will throw every bit of real or imagined mud at me. I can imagine her getting really nitpicky about interrogatories and documents I've provided. Her L has already threatened a motion to compel because I didn't provide a full five years worth of itemized account information about my ID card that I use to buy lunch. Who knows what else they will decide is "deficient," and that they need in order to go to trial. Just generally, I think she will pull out all the stops to make this as long and as expensive as possible if we don't come to an agreement. I think I would probably still be better off financially at the end of it, but it will be hard to get there and I am so tired of all of this and really want some kind of resolution without months and months of more lawyers, time, and money.

[babyducks]

I do get that this is dysfunctional. I guess that's something that occurred to me at mediation. Any settlement is going to involve playing into the dysfunction. And I'm the one that knows really well how to do that. I do recognize that that's what it is.

Hmmmm.    I am not sure I see your point here.   And I am not sure I agree that playing into the dysfunction is best for you.

Can you reframe that for us?

[formflier]

  I want to figure out some offer that I'm okay with that is likely better than what she will get from the judge, and give her the chance to take it.

I'm curious to understand this...more.  Why cut her a better deal that what the law provides?

What part of her response to your previous generosity..leads you to believe their will be a positive outcome for this.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Wasn't mediation and all the provisions you continued to make for her "one more time"?

And she rejected that..right?

Switching gears.

So..just to be clear, you own the car and you are on the car note..right?

Best,

FF

[stolencrumbs]

Hmmmm.    I am not sure I see your point here.   And I am not sure I agree that playing into the dysfunction is best for you.

Can you reframe that for us?

I guess that if we are going to avoid trial, I am going to have to play along with how she wants to do things. She's not going to agree to anything sitting in a lawyer's office. And I'm going to have to be creative with an agreement that caters to at least some of what she wants. And these things are mostly based on feelings, not facts. She needs to feel a certain way about how all of this goes. And if there's going to be a settlement, I'm going to have to play that game.

If we could actually reach an agreement and have this done and in writing, I think that might be worth it. To avoid trial and all that's going to come along with getting to that.

[stolencrumbs]

I'm curious to understand this...more.  Why cut her a better deal that what the law provides?

What part of her response to your previous generosity..leads you to believe their will be a positive outcome for this.

Best,

FF

I guess to avoid all that I think will come with getting to trial. That's the reason for offering a better deal.

And I think the prospect of court might change what she does. I don't think she wants that for a variety of reasons. But if she feels "bullied", she will continue on to court and raise as much hell as she can along the way.

And yes, the car is in my name only, though it is marital property.

[Cat Familiar]

So you’re going to negotiate against your best interests, offer her an over generous settlement, then be prepared to give even more?

Isn’t this what you’ve done the last several years?

We tell people here to look at their own part of the dysfunction. I agree with GaGrl that you are infantalizing her. In addition, you are setting up circumstances where you will be involved in her life on an ongoing basis.

How is that any different than what you’ve been doing for years?

Do you want a clean break where you can meet someone who is emotionally healthy? Or if not, just to be able to live your life without interference from her?

I’d ponder what are the strings that keep you tied to her.

[GaGrl]

So you will continue to pour your funds into a joint checking account, knowing she is paying her lawyer from that very account, as she attempts to delay and stymie efforts toward a settlement and run up more fees?

Ummm...no.

You are paying for your own demise.

If you want to see a true change in her attitude toward settlement, move your paychecks to a new account, take control of accounts and property in your name, let her have a massive extinction burst that you don't have to listen to, then WAIT while she sits with the offer you put on the table in mediation.

[Couper]

This may seem trivial given all the other things currently on your plate, but you need to decide where that car is going to go and get the right name on the paperwork.  Money issues aside, if you give her the car but your name remains on the title and she crashes into something or, God forbid, someone -- the lawyers come after a: who has the money, and can come after b: whose name is on the title.  You don't have to have your hands on the wheel to open yourself to liability.  Having your name attached to assets that you do not control opens you to risk.  Just food for thought going forward so that you don't get blindsided by any ugly surprises later. 

I'm sorry to read of all your troubles and hope you start getting them reigned in soon.

[ForeverDad]

You need a sit-down with your lawyer and figure out where you can 'downsize' her style of living with the court viewing it as reasonable and not retaliatory.  You literally cannot continue supporting (pampering) her like a princess.

For example, probably the house was roomy for the both of you, with just her there it's probably more than she "needs".  The divorce will be a good reason to sell it and let her have that portion of equity the court decides is appropriate and then she can buy her own *practical* downsized home, condo or apartment.  The maintenance and real estate taxes would be lower too.

Her having her own residence, whether rented or owned, may also provide a greater separation for you from your past history together and reduce your inclination to feel obligated in the future.

Ponder too, she says she still has savings but you're scrimping everywhere possible to survive living on crumbs so she can live her lifestyle.  You can't keep Gifting.  She has to learn frugality too and you haven't helped her learn that.

In my circumstances I need another car.  I was looking at the different models pondering my needs versus wants.  The difference between hybrids seemed minor but while the next step up is still a hybrid, it drives on battery for 50 miles rather than a few miles coasting.  However, it's about 50% more expensive and I can't see me willing to pay the premium.  That's the perspective you need for her to accept.

[babyducks]

divorce by its nature is a very adversarial process.   I do not believe there is any way through it which doesn't entail loss, upset and anger.    trying to protect her from the natural consequences of her behavior is not appropriate.

I've read this thread a couple of times, and while there are a bunch of moving parts I think I would summarize like this.

• 100% of the income from both your jobs go to supporting her
• you've been surviving on money from a previous settlement

• the money from the previous settlement has run out
• her best offer in mediation was a 90/10 split of income and benefits for life

• your first solution was to take a loan on the house to harvest equity
• the situation is definitely not sustainable as there is a hard stop at the trail date which is likely October

I am going to have to play along with how she wants to do things.

I am going to disagree with this line of thinking.   Not only do I believe you don't have to play along,  I think its a dangerous idea to play along.

Isn’t this what you’ve done the last several years?

We tell people here to look at their own part of the dysfunction.

I find myself wondering the same thing Cat is.    For a long time your operated under the assumption that if you didn't answer your wife's demanding texts and messages she would burn the house down.    and for a long time you operated under the assumption that if you filed for divorce your wife would suicide.    and for a long time you operated under the assumption that your wife is too fragile to  function in life without your caregiving.   and now the assumption seems to be that if this reaches trial she will melt down in spectacular fashion and catastrophe will result.      What if your assumptions are wrong?   what if your assumptions are partially correctly but leading you to make poor choices?

I'm pretty sure you have run into Beck's cognitive distortions,  specifically how they are unhelpful thinking patterns.    Magnification & minimization and catastrophizing come to mind right now.   The key to overcoming catastrophizing is making a distinction between something being significantly unpleasant and it being a catastrophe.    Divorce is significantly unpleasant.   Divorce from a high conflict personality is significantly unpleasant.    that does not mean it has to be avoided at all costs.    trying to keep it from being unpleasant isn't a good investment of your time or energy.    Magnification and minimization are described as the ‘binocular trick’ because of the way that errors, fears, or imperfections are exaggerated while strengths and achievements are made to seem small and unimportant.  this unhelpful thinking style is an involuntary habit.     which has gone on for quite some time and will be hard to break.

You need a sit-down with your lawyer and figure out where you can 'downsize' her style of living with the court viewing it as reasonable and not retaliatory.  

I think FD is right,  is that something you are actively considering?

my two cents
'ducks

[formflier]

So was the car purchased new?  How many more years is there on the note?

Are we talking the car is worth $5k, $15k or $50k?  (as it sits right now)

Same question with rough purchase price of the car.

There may or may not be an illustration/idea coming out of this.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

I guess to avoid all that I think will come with getting to trial. That's the reason for offering a better deal.

What do you think will come?

This is the part that puzzles me..has me convinced I'm missing something.

It seems like all the lawyers involved (including hers if I remember right) seem to acknowledge that there is a "formula" she will get a trial.

Yet...almost all of your efforts and ideas seem to be around "giving" her something considerably bigger than that..in the hopes of not getting a smaller (less costly) decision from the judge.

Is that about right?

Help me out here...

Best,

FF

[worriedStepmom]

Please take this advice.  GaGrl is right.

So you will continue to pour your funds into a joint checking account, knowing she is paying her lawyer from that very account, as she attempts to delay and stymie efforts toward a settlement and run up more fees?

Ummm...no.

You are paying for your own demise.

If you want to see a true change in her attitude toward settlement, move your paychecks to a new account, take control of accounts and property in your name, let her have a massive extinction burst that you don't have to listen to, then WAIT while she sits with the offer you put on the table in mediation.

NOTHING is going to change if you continue to do what you are doing.  Nothing.  And she will delay as long as possible, using your money.

There is nothing wrong or mean with taking control of your money.  Now is the time to start separating everything - the cell phone bills, car insurance, bank accounts, etc.  You won't leave her broke, but neither should YOU be broke.  She has to learn how to take care of herself and that is not your responsibility to fix.  That is a consequence of divorce, and divorce is a consequence of her being unwilling to manage her emotions and reactions.

[GaGrl]

What is it about your STBX dealing with the consequences of her years of behaviors that is so painful to you or difficult for you?

Right now, you are putting yourself in negative financial straits, twisting yourself into awkward legal positions, doing anything you can do to keep her from experiencing natural consequences.

You cannot feel her emotions for her. She is responsible for her actions and decisions, and she must feel her own emotions.

[stolencrumbs]

I appreciate the responses here. I'm not sure this will respond to everything but some thoughts that maybe y'all can help parse.

First, our 17-year-old dog did pass on Sunday. Stbx emailed on Sunday morning and said he wasn't able to stand up on his own. I went over to the house, she met me outside with the dog, and we went to the vet (an hour away). We were there for a couple of hours, but ultimately she decided it was best to euthanize him then, and we did. We drove back, she asked if I wanted to see our other dog for a minute, she brought her outside, I stayed for about 10 minutes outside, then left. All-in-all, it went well. She did not attempt to talk about anything other than the dog and did not press me to stay or do anything once we got back. And I think the dog was happy to see me, and I was glad to be able to be with him when he passed.

On the rest, I don't *think* I am reluctant to cut strings or that I am trying to protect her from "natural" consequences. I think the natural consequence is divorce. That's happening. The legal apparatus that surrounds that doesn't seem particularly natural to me, and I don't think what either of us may be legally entitled to necessarily captures what is fair or right. Divorce sucks. I don't think there's any way around that. But I would like to carry myself through it in a certain way, and that, for me, involves trying to be generous and fair. There are things that I believe are relevant and important factors when trying to figure out what is fair.
(1) I don't really care about money. I can live really cheaply and be quite happy, and at this point, everything I own can fit in my truck. So in the immediate term, giving more to her than the court would order doesn't really seem like much of a sacrifice. I do care about protecting my medium and long-term interests, mainly because I want to be able to provide for someone in the future, and for a possible future family. But that isn't happening next year, so giving more for a year or so doesn't seem particularly unfair to me right now.
(2) We did decide together to move here six years ago in part so that she did not have to work. Obviously, things change. I don't think that decision means I should support her forever. But we didn't make that decision thinking we would be divorced in six years. She had a good career and could've advanced in it over the last six years. I think that matters and I do think I have an obligation to help her financially for some period of time.
(3) We partly got married when we did because of her health. I had better insurance at the time, and she had just been diagnosed with cancer. We got married a week after the diagnosis and had her on my insurance before her first treatment. So health insurance wasn't just a secondary benefit of getting married. It was one of the primary reasons we got married when we did. Again, I don't think this means I have to pay for her health insurance forever, but I do think it makes the insurance situation particularly important to figure out.

In general, I would like for her to have her car. I would like for her to be able to live in the house for some period of time. And I am willing to provide some support for some period of time. I am okay with all of that, and something along those lines seems fair to me. And there are ways to make it financially feasible. Again, I most want to protect my medium and long-term financial interests. I don't actually think she will go for that, because she also wants to protect her medium and long-term interests, and she thinks the way to do that is to get support from me forever. I'm not agreeing to that and I don't think the court is going to order that. I don't know if she realizes that or not. If she does, I think we can figure something out that we are both okay with.

What I most want is for the details of the divorce to be decided. I want it to be done, in writing, signed off on, done. In addition to what I think is fair, there are all kinds of practical reasons to try to get some kind of settlement. As I've said, I think preparing for trial will be ugly and expensive. I don't really want to rehash the last five years of my life. I don't want to sit in a deposition where I'm painted to be a monster and my experience is completely minimized. I don't want to fight about whether her health concerns are overblown. I just don't want to go through that. And I don't want her to go through that. It just sucks for everyone involved. It's also not great timing. The trial is in October. I am teaching six classes and running a program with 500 students who need various levels of support and advising. And we're all coming back from a year of weirdness. I don't really want to be dealing with the preparation and trial during that. And I do worry about what stbx will do and how she will react before and after the trial. I have been wrong about what she might do, but I haven't been *that* wrong. There is a 4x4 charred section of hardwood floors in the house from a fire she lit. She did end up in the hospital after overdosing on propranolol.

In short, I value going through this in a certain way. Thus far, I'm okay with how I've approached things. I think I have been fair and generous while still protecting myself in a lot of ways. I want to continue to do that until we cross the Rubicon. I will fight for my long-term future, but I am okay with giving more financially in the short term to help her transition. I don't know if that's infantilizing her. It is what she says she wants. I am okay with trying to give her what she says she wants in the short term in order to get something done and avoid a trial. I think there are about two weeks left to figure something out before this thing shifts to trial mode. 

[formflier]

Should you care about money?

Best,

FF

[stolencrumbs]

Should you care about money?

Best,

FF

I don't think anymore than I do now. I care about it insofar as it enables me to help other people I care about or may care about in the future. That does matter to me. I just don't care much about it for my own personal lifestyle.

[worriedStepmom]

I'm very sorry about your dog.  I'm glad you were able to grieve together. 

I think you are likely being too optimistic in thinking that your actions now will avoid a trial, but if you want the stress and fees of another round of mediation in the meantime, that is your call.

[GaGrl]

I think your method of dividing settlement issues into short-term vs. medium/long-term can help you move forward. Maybe you can chart it out...

Short-Term =
-- Car
-- Housing for up to ? months while house is prepped for sale; house goes on market no later than X date.
-- Support for housing expenses pending sale
-- Continued health insurance coverage at 100%

Medium-Term =
-- Division of equity upon sale of house (terms of division?)
-- Rehabilitative alimony for ? years/months with focus on obtaining employment that provides medical benefits
-- Contribution toward health insurance coverage (not 100%) until employed or X date

Long-Term =
-- No long-term arrangements.

Infantilizing her would continue if you agreed to alimony in futuro, taking responsibility for her health insurance coverage, or otherwise tied yourself to financing her current lifestyle with no defined mid-term end in sight.

[formflier]

I don't think anymore than I do now. I care about it insofar as it enables me to help other people I care about or may care about in the future. That does matter to me. I just don't care much about it for my own personal lifestyle.

In what ways has your money and your decision to let her have unrestricted access to your money helped your wife?  How sure are you about that?

In what ways has your money and your decision to let her have unrestricted access to your money not helped your wife?  How sure are you about that?


Best,

FF

[formflier]

Hey..worthy of a separate post. 

So sorry about your dog.  It's incredible how much a part of our lives they become. 

I hope you can spend time with good memories of those 17 years.

Best,

FF

[Goosey]

Stolen crumbs, your doing good! Keep on keeping on and you’ll come out the other side. I’m divorced as of today. Bit stunned. And I feel like I should feel all the feelings I have had for years. (We know em, no need to list em), just feel relieved. Your next up on the next step!  

[stolencrumbs]

I think your method of dividing settlement issues into short-term vs. medium/long-term can help you move forward. Maybe you can chart it out...

Short-Term =
-- Car
-- Housing for up to ? months while house is prepped for sale; house goes on market no later than X date.
-- Support for housing expenses pending sale
-- Continued health insurance coverage at 100%

Medium-Term =
-- Division of equity upon sale of house (terms of division?)
-- Rehabilitative alimony for ? years/months with focus on obtaining employment that provides medical benefits
-- Contribution toward health insurance coverage (not 100%) until employed or X date

Long-Term =
-- No long-term arrangements.

Infantilizing her would continue if you agreed to alimony in futuro, taking responsibility for her health insurance coverage, or otherwise tied yourself to financing her current lifestyle with no defined mid-term end in sight.

Yes, this is pretty much how I'm thinking about things. I haven't laid it out like that, and that's helpful. I think we could agree on the short and medium-term. The issue will be over the long term.

[stolencrumbs]

Stolen crumbs, your doing good! Keep on keeping on and you’ll come out the other side. I’m divorced as of today. Bit stunned. And I feel like I should feel all the feelings I have had for years. (We know em, no need to list em), just feel relieved. Your next up on the next step!  

Thanks, Goosey. I'm definitely looking forward to that next step.

[ForeverDad]

(1) I don't really care about money. I can live really cheaply and be quite happy... So in the immediate term, giving more to her than the court would order doesn't really seem like much of a sacrifice. I do care about protecting my medium and long-term interests, mainly because I want to be able to provide for someone in the future, and for a possible future family...

What if you lose your income a few months from now in a recession or more lockdowns?  Despite you being in such a Gifting mood, wouldn't it be wise to predicate excess generosity upon whether you have sufficient future income?

It has been commented here that it is much better to be obligated to pay less and give yourself room to gift additional as your circumstances allow, rather than be obligated to pay much but circumstances are bad.

[Cat Familiar]

At the risk of saying something that might offend, I want to ask if your excessive generosity might be a shelter against feelings of guilt over initiating the divorce?