Let the explosion happen, or appease?

[maxsterling]

What is your preferred method of dealing with pwBPD's inevitable issues?  Let the nuclear explosion happen, or constantly try and diffuse the bomb?

Scenario:  W and I have talked about moving into a bigger home for the past few years.  As much as I dread the stress of moving, in the long run it would be a good thing.  Problem?  Our credit is bad and getting approved is unlikely.  I'm also not very well versed on financial things.  I know enough to not get screwed over, but I am not very saavy with this stuff.  W is even worse - she simply spends what she has.

A few years ago the idea was to sell and use the equity for a down payment on something bigger.  W ran away with this idea, and immediately contacted an agent not knowing what she was getting into.  The agent saw the $$$ in letting her sell our house, and was completely clueless that we would not get approved.  So that stalled.  A year later, the idea was to sell and rent for awhile.  The idea here was a bigger house in a better neighborhood until our credit improved enough to buy again.  The problem? Rent was more than our mortgage payment, and there is a shortage of rentals and they will not rent to those with bad credit.  So we chose to stay where we are.  Last year, we went through the mortgage application process again, and was denied, because of one late payment on our credit report.  Again, W had contacted an Agent, who was all gung-ho about selling our house, and still bugs us from time to time.  Again this agent didn't understand that it getting approved was no guarantee, and was ready to push us to sell, and got W all excited about moving.

Recently, we tried again, and yesterday was denied again based upon credit.  I am not surprised, but I figured the more likely outcome is that we would have been approved at a higher interest rate and would not be able to find a house for what we were approved for.  W blew up at me over this, claiming I had not been truthful to her.  Reality is she is mad at herself, and I became the scapegoat.  My reality is that I knew it was unlikely we would be able to move, but did not explicitly tell her out of fear she would say that I am unwilling to take a risk.   There is some truth to me not wanting to take a risk, and her telling me that I am too cautious is a very sore area for me.

This feels no-win.  My strategy all along was to let W be involved in the process and let the "experts" tell us the answers rather than me tell her the answers, especially since she claims I am "controlling".  She's mad because I did not tell her that her spending could hurt our chances.  Of course the Agents and lenders she spoke to did not tell her that either.  The truth is, I didn't know that it would.  When she asks if it is OK to spend money on this or that, my response is always for her to think about it first, whether we really need it, if we can wait, etc.  We are both adults, and I think it is not a good place r/s wise to not trust the other regarding money.  Let her learn on her own.

So now she feels guilty like we were denied because of her spending.  That's only a small part of it.  W likes to buy things, but I don't see her spending money on things that she/we don't need.  Medical stuff possibly - the Ketamine and TMS were expensive, but from my end unless she gets some of these mental health issues treated, moving into a new house just won't happen. 

Thoughts here?  Would I have been better off being upfront months/years ago and saying "I doubt we will be approved, please don't contact an Agent."?  Or better to let her walk down that path herself only to run up against the hard reality?  She seems to be mad that I let her walk down the path.  My feeling is she did that on her own.

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[Notwendy]

Max, when did it become the expectation that a spouse is Santa Claus, who has his magical elves make every material dream come true, no matter what the cost? New house? Santa will make it happen.

At some point, children learn to navigate the adult world and the reality of this world is that, if you can't afford it, you can't have it.

Everyone who wants to buy a house has to be qualified to pay the mortgage. The bank isn't going to take a risk with their money. If someone has poor credit, or can't afford it- the consequences are no house.

If someone wants good credit, they have to make affordable choices with their money. Over spend=poor credit=no house.

Natural consequences are the best teachers. Yes, it makes sense to protect people from harmful ones. Don't let your friend drive drunk. But the lesson of over spending is poor credit. Your wife might not like it and throw a fit but that's her lesson. Why would you take this learning away from her?

My BPD mother was able to spend money when she wanted to. When my father got ill, we were very concerned that BPD mom would not manage their money wisely.  I tried to step in to help manage it and this did not go very well. So at first she kept on spending. Then one day I heard her say " once I spend it, it's gone". She didn't have to think about it like this before. Then one day I heard her say " I wanted this but it's too expensive". I still don't think she's good with money but she's a lot more conscious of it now.

My father had been choosing appeasement because he didn't want to face the anger explosion, and they are not easy to deal with. So he didn't want her to be upset, but she didn't have any incentive to pay attention to her spending as long as he protected her from the consequences of it. This was his choice and like any choice, there are benefits and drawbacks. If your wife could spend what she wants and you could still qualify for the bigger house, you could choose this too but this isn't an option.

IMHO, I think it was a good thing that you let your wife experience the reality of buying a house. Your other choice was to step in and be the bad guy ( it won't be approved) or be Santa Claus and make it appear somehow. Neither is the reality of how to buy a house. If she wants a bigger house, she needs to budget, save, and repair the credit score. If you allow her to understand this reality, she may then have some incentive to change her spending. If you get in between this, then she won't.

[maxsterling]

IMHO, I think it was a good thing that you let your wife experience the reality of buying a house. Your other choice was to step in and be the bad guy ( it won't be approved) or be Santa Claus and make it appear somehow. Neither is the reality of how to buy a house. If she wants a bigger house, she needs to budget, save, and repair the credit score. If you allow her to understand this reality, she may then have some incentive to change her spending. If you get in between this, then she won't.

Agreed.   And that is why I took this approach.  Of course, W has redirected the frustration towards me, but it has mostly blown over.  She makes statements of, "why did you let me pursue this and waste my time if you knew it wouldn't work out?"  She has a hard time remembering that she chose to pursue something, and it is not my job to "let her" or tell her "don't".  In this case, I knew that if she didn't talk to the agent on her own and didn't go though the approval process on her own, then she would not stop bugging me about it and stop complaining about how small our house is. 

I tried to keep my role limited - that I would talk to the agent and discuss things with her, but not make promises or commitments.  So when she invited the Agent over, I sat and talked with her and asked questions that were different than what W hoped I would ask.  I think she wanted me to be ready to sign papers and looking at houses.  Instead I asked questions about whether we could actually find a house that we could afford, whether we should wait a year, etc.  I would love to be able to move to a larger house.  I just know that it is unlikely right now, but the information is still useful. 

Will she learn?  Yes.  But when feelings override facts, she will forget.  There is more deeper stuff going on here attached to this, and all of that is something I cannot solve.  But right now she is recognizing the need to pay down debt and not spend frivolously. 

[Notwendy]

Max- if your goal is to not have her be upset at you - you aren’t going to “win” this either way. If you had intervened then she’d blame you for not getting the house. If you let her go through this process - she blames you. The only way to avoid her anger is to fulfill all she wishes- but financially that’s hard to do.

Will she learn? I don’t know but if she wants a bigger house and the only way that’s going to happen is if she watches her spending and improves the credit - then she will either get the house or not depending on her behavior. Maybe she will learn eventually. If you make it happen for her then she absolutely will not learn. If her learning is your wish then at least you can make that a possibility and not eliminate it altogether.

[formflier]

The one thing that I'm a bit nervous about in your story is that you "talked" about it..have been "talking about it for years".

I'm worried that there is some validating the invalid or participating in a "false reality".

For instance...how did this last mortgage application go?  Who did it?  What had changed since last one that led you to believe it would be ok?


Sort of a separate issue...bigger houses have bigger expenses..bigger problems...etc etc

We had our biggest house ever when we had 4 kids.  Oddly enough have been downsizing since then.  I'm not sure if it's a BPD thing or just us or what...but...the walls of our house are a natural boundary.  We can only have what fits inside.

Max

I would suggest a couple different threads.

1.  Not being Santa claus/what to do when your wife wants magic.
2.  How to improve credit.
3.  Improving satisfaction with current house.

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I like what FF mentioned: Improving satisfaction with current house.

As an adult, I’ve lived in a variety of homes: a broken down bread truck in a cane field in Hawaii, a garage without a bathroom, a three story house next to a state forest, a camper in the woods, and now my current house on rural acreage, which is extremely large for two people.

One thing that is constant: the more space you have, the more you will fill it with stuff.

The three pwBPD I’ve lived with (two husbands, my mother) brought in more stuff than they discarded, and thus, living spaces that were previously open and spacious, quickly became cluttered.

A task during the pandemic has been decluttering. I have a box in the basement where I deposit clothes, household stuff, and miscellaneous that are no longer needed, annoy me, or are just in the way. When the box is full, I take it to a thrift store.

It’s been so freeing to clear more space in my house and keep it junk free.

[formflier]

One thing that is constant: the more space you have, the more you will fill it with stuff.

I have fought this for years...I believed I would have the willpower to change it.  That "large" house that we bought...we intended to have empty rooms were we could temporarily do projects...so much easier to have an empty room to set up a project, do it..clean up and put it away..and be back to a blank slate.

We actually did it a couple times like that..life happened...stuff was everywhere.

Thankfully my wife and I are of the same mind here... and she has less tolerance for clutter than I do. 

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

I'm going to suggest that it isn't the house, but the projection on to the house of unhappy feelings. I lost count of how many times I heard my BPD mother say " we need this ____ to save the marriage" or we need X, Y, Z to solve our issues. Somehow my father managed to provide X, Y, Z but since that wasn't the problem in the first place, rather it was the projection of the moment of the problem, it didn't solve the issue for long.

You ask if you should have appeased but appeasement seems to only lead to more situations to appease.

But the stress and agitation was apparent. If she wanted something, his solution was to get it now as it is very hard to face her requests. But his responses also reinforced her behavior, she knew it worked.

She often will ask advice from others as to what is the best, and then decide she has to have that. She wanted a computer for email and shopping. Not sure who she asked because the one she wanted was a gamer's dream. I went to the store with my father for the computer and saw another one, more basic, that would have even been easier for her to use at a much better price. I naively suggested he get that one. He snapped back at me in an angry voice "I will get her the one she wants".

While this made little sense in my logical thinking, I realized later that bringing home the "wrong" computer was not worth the cost savings as it would not be the ONE computer she was fixated on.

It's not the item- but the emotions attached to that item.

[maxsterling]

Wendy -

I think you nailed it.  The house we were in once raised 4 kids.  It is 1100 square feet with one bathroom.  It's small, but it is possible for it to meet our needs.

W's pattern is to look to the external to fix the internal.  Prior to meeting me, she moved every two years as an attempt to fix a broken life.  Her time with me (7 years) is the longest she has lived in one place - by far.  She still rearranges furniture about every other month.  One poor shelf has been moved about 30 times since she moved in.  Buying a new house is part of this:  1) This was my house before she met me.  She wants a house that symbolizes "us".  2)  She is uncomfortable that she is not on the deed/mortgage.   Logically and legally this makes no sense - but for her it does.  3) She thinks moving will solve her perceived problems with a lack of space and inability to organize.  See the above comment about changing the external to fix the internal.

FF - regarding validating the invalid - maybe.  But I do want to move at some point, if we could.  It is worth exploring.  What has changes since the last time?  1 more year post bankruptcy.  Slightly better credit.  Significantly more equity in the house  that we can use for a down payment on another.  I felt it worth trying just to see.  Honestly, I thought we would be approved this time, and the issue would be not in the approval but in finding a new house in our price range.  The issue is that I personally want to move into a better living situation.   With a non-disordered partner it would be a valid discussion.  With a pwBPD, I either keep my feelings to myself, or risk getting her hopes up and run away with something.

W seems to have accepted the result here, but has been in a very negative and angry mood since.  I think this is why - her sails were deflated, and she is blaming herself.  So she has been lashing out at me (and the kids) about nearly everything again.

[Notwendy]

She is disappointed- and that's expected- She's going to feel what she feels.

The point I wanted to make is your actions in this. Imagine if you bought your kids everything they wanted when they wanted it to avoid a tantrum. I think you know you would be reinforcing the tantrum and have demanding kids. It wouldn't help your kids to do this.

What do you want for your kids? I hope you want them to learn how to budget and if they want something - eventually the value of money and how to earn it. They need these skills to function as responsible adults. I think you would wish your wife was better at this too. Appeasement doesn't teach this- for them or for your wife.