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Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits. Practicing lawyer, Senior Family Mediator, and former Licensed Clinical Social Worker with twelve years’ experience and an expert on navigating the Family Court process.
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Author Topic: How to get distance from their problems  (Read 1029 times)
Ozzie101
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« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2021, 06:06:48 PM »

Agreed. That’s why I want to talk to them — they may not be getting a full picture. My fear is, if I go to them behind his back, would they reveal that to him? I’m going to discuss with my T tomorrow.

He is extremely sensitive to those things. He’ll say it himself: he thinks people do things on purpose just to upset him. And that the only correct response is to lash out in extreme ways (and to demand others do the same. Any time anything upsets him, he’ll also turn to others he think should jump in to help him. That’s one of his big struggles with me: I don’t react the same way and I don’t launch into rescue mode.

When he calms down he’s a bit more rational and admits his reaction may not be the best way to handle things.

I have to admit — I’m glad he’s gone for a couple of days. Besides, the traffic noise and cramped quarters at our temp apartment don’t help his mood or stress levels. Quiet alone time may help — for now. Not that that addresses the main problem.
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« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2021, 06:24:00 PM »

Agreed. That’s why I want to talk to them — they may not be getting a full picture. My fear is, if I go to them behind his back, would they reveal that to him? I’m going to discuss with my T tomorrow.

For a profession where confidentiality is a necessity, I'd believe they'd be very mindful of that, especially since he also has paranoid traits. Think of it this way, any information you reveal as his wife will help them do their jobs better. They certainly wouldn't want to cause further disruption in either his life nor your own by revealing that you'd spoken with them.

He is extremely sensitive to those things. He’ll say it himself: he thinks people do things on purpose just to upset him. And that the only correct response is to lash out in extreme ways (and to demand others do the same. Any time anything upsets him, he’ll also turn to others he think should jump in to help him. That’s one of his big struggles with me: I don’t react the same way and I don’t launch into rescue mode.

My guess is that there's a few personality disorders here, not just BPD. And that he goes into fugue states where he cannot remember what he's said and done, apart from alcohol-induced blackouts. That he is able to have a professional career, for a while before he self-sabotages, leads me to believe that he has the ability to present well. Also that he has a streak of vanity (the obsession about weight) makes me think that he's definitely not telling them the full picture.
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« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2021, 08:22:41 PM »

Why not just ask him if he wants you to go directly to them or with him on a call or in person?

Note:  I wouldn't even raise the possibility of skipping it.  

"Hey babe...would you rather me contact P and T directly or on a call with you?"

Kinda a separate issue,  him deciding to go out of town and do stuff to soothe is a good move.  At some point when he comes back..encourage and praise that kind of behavior.


Best,

FF
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Ozzie101
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« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2021, 08:52:25 PM »

That’s pretty much how I addressed it this time. But his reaction to the idea of my doing it without him was that, in that case, I must be ok with him talking to my T solo.

He can definitely present well. Most people dealing with him would never know. People who have to work with him on stressful matters probably get an inkling (he says it himself that people think he’s an ass). A couple of friends might know a bit. But otherwise, no.

He is a bit better at reigning himself back in than he used to be. But he’s moving back into his “I’m quitting all therapy” stance. I can understand his frustration. I really can.

I just feel so hopeless lately. Sometimes he sounds so reasonable I almost start believing what he says or almost cave and agree to something I don’t think is right. I’m better now at holding the line. But it’s so exhausting feeling like I’m dealing with my own struggles, worries, problems, emotions, and worrying what the next thing will be to set him off. And what the damage could end up being.

He sounds reasonable but then he’ll say something very narcissistic (“no one appreciates how great I am at this” “I want people to look at me and admire how I look”) or he’ll be so vindictive (“I want to make sure these people suffer. How do we do that?”)

I’m glad I have a T appointment tomorrow. And him being out of town makes that a lot easier, logistically. He’s already not thrilled about it. He doesn’t trust my T and thinks all we do is bash him.
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« Reply #34 on: April 13, 2021, 06:33:35 AM »


Of course you said yes..here is my Ts number..right?

In fact..why not insist that he sets up an appointment with her?

So the resolution to how you talk to his med professionals is?

Best,

FF
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« Reply #35 on: April 13, 2021, 06:34:53 AM »

He doesn’t trust my T and thinks all we do is bash him.

How do you know this? 

Do you see his "invitation" to participate in drama triangle here?  Who are playing what roles?

Best,

FF
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Ozzie101
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« Reply #36 on: April 13, 2021, 07:39:15 AM »

That’s a good point. I shouldn’t care if he talks to my T. I don’t have anything to hide.

I just need to go back to him and tell him I want to talk to his people either with him or without him. But I may wait a few days until he’s more stable.

How do I know he thinks we bash him? He’s told me so. Many times.

His invitations to the drama triangle are frequent. Usually, he’s casting himself as victim, someone else as persecutor and me as rescuer. In this case, he seems to be trying to put me and my T both in persecutor mode.
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« Reply #37 on: April 13, 2021, 07:57:27 AM »

 In this case, he seems to be trying to put me and my T both in persecutor mode.

make the big buzzer sound...ehhhhhhhhhhzzbbbbzzzzzz

let's make it a rule that each person only gets 1 role.  So...who does he see (or want to see) in each position (you are so close).

Best,

FF
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« Reply #38 on: April 13, 2021, 08:05:10 AM »

I’m not sure. It’s either:

1) I’m the persecutor and he wants my T to defend him from my allegations.

2) My T is and he wants me to defend him from her and stop seeing her so she won’t poison me any further.

I could see his mind going either way.
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« Reply #39 on: April 13, 2021, 09:00:37 AM »

I’m not sure. It’s either:

1) I’m the persecutor and he wants my T to defend him from my allegations.

2) My T is and he wants me to defend him from her and stop seeing her so she won’t poison me any further.

I could see his mind going either way.

Both of these are probably true at different times based on what he is feeling.

If I had to guess, I would say that in this scenario he sees himself as victim (it's not fair that I am expected to be the one who always has to work on myself), you are the persecutor (ozzie wants to talk to my T because she thinks our issues are all my fault) and your T as rescuer (I want to do to ozzie what she's doing to me to make us "even").

Not sure if that's what FF was getting at, but that's my best guess.
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« Reply #40 on: April 13, 2021, 09:04:57 AM »



Not sure if that's what FF was getting at, but that's my best guess.

Yep...we all agree on who is the victim.

My best guess...and for clarity it's all reading tea leaves...is that he is trying to cast the T as the persecutor and "offering" Ozzie the chance to "rescue" him. 

"Oh Ozzie...if you would only realize how evil that T is..why don't we just leave all this psychology nonsense behind and just go back to the good old days when you let me emotionally vomit all over you...when it suits me..."

But it could be that you Ozzie are the persecutor and if the T only knew the truth...she would rescue me/fix the evil Ozzie.

I still vote for T as persecutor...but it's a toss up.

Best,

FF

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Ozzie101
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« Reply #41 on: April 13, 2021, 09:12:40 AM »

From things he says, I really think he rocks back and forth. My going to therapy = bad/dangerous. He just can’t decide what that means or who fills what role.

Of course, if I want to get picky, I could say he or others could argue I’m also trying to triangulate with his T and P — hoping they’ll rescue me from H the persecutor. Except I don’t think that’s what I’m doing. I don’t want to be rescued. I just want to explore every avenue to help him get better.

He’s very big on things not being his fault. He will claim things and apologize much of the time. But he really pushes for there being other explanations. Even something like his weight gain. He wants there to be something seriously wrong with him so it won’t be his fault (“I have a tumor! It’s not because I stayed up late eating bags of chips for a month.”) And so his doctors would have to eat their words.

Blame is huge. And so is punishment.
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« Reply #42 on: April 13, 2021, 09:53:31 AM »

I’ll relay a brief overview of the conversation I had with my husband’s psychologist.

I called him, saying that I didn’t want to violate therapist/client privacy, but I wanted to add some information that may give a fuller picture of what is going on.

He was very gracious and open.

I said that my husband is very good at presenting well and often minimizes issues. I told him that I had been learning a lot about BPD and listed my husband’s behaviors that fit the different diagnostic categories.

He thanked me and said he really appreciated the information.

At my next therapy appointment, I was second guessing myself and I asked my therapist if I’d been inappropriate calling my husband’s psychologist. She assured me I had not and told me that she would be grateful to hear this type of information from a family member.
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« Reply #43 on: April 13, 2021, 10:03:34 AM »



He’s very big on things not being his fault. 

Blame is huge. And so is punishment.

So...we've all read the diagnostic criteria and of course we all also kinda get "our own list" of what it means that a person has a "pd".

When I hear people talking about "fault" instead of "responsibility"...that's a big marker for me.

Then if they are willing to place "fault" or "blame" to others, yet dance around when it is pointed at them...that's another.

I missed this for a long time because naval aviation debriefs are brutally honest...many times things are all recorded (radar tracks, your voice, what your sensors "see") so you can figure out what you saw and how you made the decisions you did.

Lots of us guys are kinda azzes anyway so we would liberally say "fault" or "blame"...instead of responsibility...and it was usually in a "colorful way".

So to me I didn't pick up on it right away...yet I realize now that most people don't have that military "brutally honest" type of experience...and most people don't "appreciate" that.

So I didn't get it that my wife wouldn't want to know it was her "fault"...because then she could change it (in my mind).

Anyway...those words are now  Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post) Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post) Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post) to me that a PD may be present.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #44 on: April 13, 2021, 11:58:00 AM »

Yeah, the fault/blame thing is a  Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post) Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post) for me. He focuses on that a lot — who’s to blame and how can they be appropriately punished. I just don’t think that way and that leads to a lot of frustrations — particularly him towards me because I won’t play along.
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« Reply #45 on: April 13, 2021, 02:35:52 PM »

Contacting the T won’t be a problem, even if H says ge doesn’t want me to. My T knows him.

It’s the P.

The clinic is structured so you have to go through their automated system and leave a message. This P has no contact info available. In the past, when I’ve done that about something, the P or the receptionist or billing clerk has called H instead of me. Given that and how many things have slipped through the cracks out there, I’d be afraid to even try if H doesn’t give the ok.
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« Reply #46 on: April 13, 2021, 05:28:52 PM »

Are the T and the P in the same clinic? I would hope that they are communicating with each other if they are both treating the same client.

Perhaps try the T and ask that the P be clued in if possible.

There are often notes in client files that all providers can access, particularly if one provides therapy and another provides medication.
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« Reply #47 on: April 13, 2021, 06:11:24 PM »

They’re not in the same clinic. H used to see a T at that clinic but no longer does. I have no idea if they’re talking.

My T said she’s heard about the communication and scheduling problems at the P’s clinic before so it’s not just H (even though he takes it personally).

H had asked if she knew anything about other Ps and she did have a couple of recommendations. He never can stay with anyone long because no one can really satisfy him (that’s true of everyone — even lawn care people) but in this case, it might be better for him to switch. That said, I hope he does stick it out with his T because from what H tells me, I think he has the potential to help him. They have a lot of background stuff in common that helps.

My T was helpful and I felt better after talking to her. This place is a godsend but there’s something about talking in person.

She was very positive about H’s going out of town the way he did. She said it may be helpful to us to spend more time apart during transition periods (like my upcoming return to the office) just to dial it down and reduce the chances of blow-ups like last week. I think it’s a good point.

I also shared my concern with his idea of having someone else to vent to about some things. In a way it would be good. He could vent about things like my family without my having to hear it and he poisoned against him more. But if he chooses the wrong person, that person could end up re-enforcing some of his more extreme statements. If they’re unaware of what’s happening, they could get triangulated as rescuer (with me as persecutor). Or something along those lines.

But part of me feels like, if that happens, it happens.I can’t stop him. I can only do what I feel is right and do what I can to protect myself.
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« Reply #48 on: April 18, 2021, 10:42:00 AM »

So H spent a few days with his mother. I don’t know that it really helped in the long run.

His big concerns are still the house and his job. He says the job is too much and he can’t handle the stress. This is the same thing he said about his last two jobs and I asked if he wanted to start looking again. Non-committal.

Anyway, according to him, his mother told him he has too much stress and he needs to eliminate some of it. “Does Ozzie realize how stressed you are? Why doesn’t she step up and work more? Why doesn’t her family help?” He said she thought I should work two or three jobs so he can take a break.

Did his mom really say that? I don’t know. We’ve always got on well. I got the impression H wanted me to feel ashamed or something. I don’t. I don’t make as much as H. He has a more marketable degree and training. But I do plenty for us and handle quite a bit. I’m frequently stressed too, I just handle it better. And we’re not my family’s responsibility. But I didn’t argue back at him. It’s kind of pointless.

It’s frustrating though. And it stinks to want to be excited about moving into a new home and instead feel like I’m constantly being hit by a wet blanket.

I’m realistic. I know not to expect anything else. And I know he’s dealing with a lot of stress right now with a new job and the difficult move. But sometimes it’s really hard. Especially since I don’t have anyone I feel I can really vent to.
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« Reply #49 on: April 18, 2021, 02:35:06 PM »


First reaction on two issues.

I would not suggest any action whatsover to eliminate stress (looking for a job)...I do think validating questions are good...just let him fill in the blanks.

I would resist listening to 2nd hand conversations...especially about his Mom.  Because..you will never know.

Thoughts?

Best,

FF
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« Reply #50 on: April 18, 2021, 05:24:22 PM »

Agreed. I don’t need to suggest things to him. That’s not my job.

And, yeah, I take his statements and recounting with a grain of salt.

So we move into the new house tomorrow. I went over today to take a few things, look things over. Things looked fine. He seemed fine.

Then I got home and he’s back in a mood. Talking about going over there to examine everything in case I missed major damage. Wanting to send strong emails to our agent. Getting angry about garage door openers (the sellers didn’t leave them — probably forgot but our agent is checking).

It’s like he’s going out of his way to find things to get upset about. He was fine earlier. Sometime between our hanging up the phone and my getting home, he got agitated and confrontational.

I’m just feeling exhausted dealing with this.
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« Reply #51 on: April 18, 2021, 07:59:04 PM »


I think there is a place...even when he is agitated (but not full blown dysregulated) for..

"Hey babe...is something on your mind (don't suggest "wrong") or did something change since our phone call?" 


On the "recounting" thing of your hubby.  I'm not suggesting you shouldn't put much stock in it (although that is true)...I AM suggesting you not participate in it.

"Hey babe...it's best your private conversations with your Mom stay private."

I mean..if someone wants you to know their opinion..they can communicate it directly to you.

Plus...it's well known BPD tactic to make decisions by listing all the people that said this and that and somehow that means their spouse must change their mind...or doesn't matter.

Just don't go there...

Best,

FF

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« Reply #52 on: April 18, 2021, 09:25:06 PM »

That’s a good suggestion on asking. Sometimes that doesn’t work but I’ll continue to keep it in mind in case I can find a way that does.

I didn’t participate in the mom conversation. I just gave a noncommittal “oh?” And moved on. But a statement like that might be even better (more clear).

Yeah, he likes to list people who agree with him, etc. I don’t put stock in it. No telling if they actually said it. Or, even if they did, if they had the full story. He’ll often tell me other people’s thoughts as if that will sway me.
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« Reply #53 on: April 18, 2021, 09:32:04 PM »



Yeah, he likes to list people who agree with him, etc. I don’t put stock in it. No telling if they actually said it. Or, even if they did, if they had the full story. He’ll often tell me other people’s thoughts as if that will sway me.

Yes..and you should stop listening, participating or in anyway validating this as an acceptable practice.

It can be turned positive.  "Hey babe...I'm concerned about your thoughts...not Stanleys.."

Best,

FF
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« Reply #54 on: April 18, 2021, 10:04:34 PM »

I usually ignore him and move on, or say something like “I don’t care what Bob thinks.” Along those lines. But the more positive spin is something I can try. What I’ve been doing usually doesn’t rile him up and moves on but he does keep doing it.

Things just seem to be cycling a lot lately. We can’t go a week without a real outburst. Can’t go more than a couple of days without extreme moodiness.

Tomorrow he’s planning to work and just let me deal with the movers. He keeps saying he’s sure there will be a problem and he and SS will need to stay at our apartment. Honestly, that’s fine with me. I don’t particularly want him there. Though when we’re apart all day, it tends to increase the likelihood of a dysregulation..

I’m sorry. I’ve been around long enough to know what to expect or not expect. What’s realistic or not. But I’ve been looking forward to moving into a new home and getting settled. It just stinks to be hit with an H who is relentlessly negative.
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