Well FF is likely to have a weird weekend...

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I went out of town for a day to go pickup a van I got on an auction.  I left an apparently happy family.

On the day I was driving back I could tell there was some weird tension with FFw, she didn't want to talk..was just weird.

Then when I when I am back D15 is trying to add in a last minute plan to have a friend over, presenting it as "just for one night" but when I started to dig for details..she was trying to have the kid over for the entire weekend.

It just couldn't be worked out.  So I told her we should plan ahead for next weekend or the weekend after.

Well...D15 starts texting me that she wants a therapist, is going to find her own therapist...she has all the problems that I'm not noticing..so she has to go to a therapist before she can talk to me...because if I don't notice them I'm obviously not safe to talk to about them...

Uggg..it's "BPDish..."  my alarm bells are going off.  I validated and let her know I would like to talk in person...and she refuses to talk in  person because I don't know the problems she has so she has to choose a therapist to talk to first.

I said her mother and i would be happy to help her find a licensed mental health care professional to work with. (I said this for a reason...and I drew out this response)

That she only would talk to a "biblical counselor" and that her parents would not in any way be involved in this decision.

Uggg...

I have no idea what "issues" I have not noticed.

Lots of you can tell me what to do type attitude stuff and the weird "argument" of.. "since you didn't read my mind and understand what I want you to understand..I can't possibly tell you what's bothering me"

For clarity...lots of deep talks where I would ask about different parts of her life..what was bothering her...what she liked...so lots of opportunities to bring something up.

And of course FFw is complaining that we don't talk, asks me questions about the schedule..and then overtalks my answer.  

So..where did that other wife and daughter go?

Best,

FF

[formflier]

I went out of town for a day to go pickup a van I got on an auction.  I left an apparently happy family.

On the day I was driving back I could tell there was some weird tension with FFw, she didn't want to talk..was just weird.

Then when I when I am back D15 is trying to add in a last minute plan to have a friend over, presenting it as "just for one night" but when I started to dig for details..she was trying to have the kid over for the entire weekend.

It just couldn't be worked out.  So I told her we should plan ahead for next weekend or the weekend after.

Well...D15 starts texting me that she wants a therapist, is going to find her own therapist...she has all the problems that I'm not noticing..so she has to go to a therapist before she can talk to me...because if I don't notice them I'm obviously not safe to talk to about them...

Uggg..it's "BPDish..."  my alarm bells are going off.  I validated and let her know I would like to talk in person...and she refuses to talk in  person because I don't know the problems she has so she has to choose a therapist to talk to first.

I said her mother and i would be happy to help her find a licensed mental health care professional to work with. (I said this for a reason...and I drew out this response)

That she only would talk to a "biblical counselor" and that her parents would not in any way be involved in this decision.

Uggg...

I have no idea what "issues" I have not noticed.

Lots of you can tell me what to do type attitude stuff and the weird "argument" of.. "since you didn't read my mind and understand what I want you to understand..I can't possibly tell you what's bothering me"

For clarity...lots of deep talks where I would ask about different parts of her life..what was bothering her...what she liked...so lots of opportunities to bring something up.

And of course FFw is complaining that we don't talk, asks me questions about the schedule..and then overtalks my answer.  

So..where did that other wife and daughter go?

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

One thing to keep in mind is that teens with emotions and hormones can act as if they have BPD but it is also a normal stage for them so it doesn't mean she has BPD.

That said,  being raised in a home with a BPD parent and the dynamics involved do affect everyone in the home and I would take a request to see a counselor seriously ( and you do).

I think it's important for her to know her discussions with a T are confidential ( and that can be done I think unless something is life threatening and then the T needs to tell you). However, you, the parent, will be paying for this so it's not entirely her choice.

You mentioned you have a good T who also has a religious foundation. Maybe one compromise is for your D to talk to yours first- not as her own T but to ask your T to help recommend someone for her. Yes, you can do this but that will mess up the request for your D that she finds her own. If your D makes the request then perhaps she will feel more comfortable.

Your T will know how to discuss confidentiality with your D. I expect there are laws and guidelines with this for adolescents.

Your D may be wary of this. You can present it as "you have nothing to lose with this- you don't have to tell my T anything you don't want to. I just want to be sure your T is professionally competent and has the biblical view you are looking for, and think my T will help you find the best person".

[formflier]

It will be interesting/informative how she behaves in person towards/with me today.

I reviewed the texts and don't believe I "took any bait"...near as I can tell that frustrated her so it appears she stepped up her game.

If I had it to do over again...I would have stopped communicating earlier.

Weird evening.  Just got off an hour phone call with my therapist.  Will update you guys later.

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

Hello FF,

I reviewed the texts and don't believe I "took any bait"...near as I can tell that frustrated her so it appears she stepped up her game.

If I had it to do over again...I would have stopped communicating earlier.

I am wondering if you felt up to expanding on the above not taking "any bait", especially in this set of circumstances?     I am a little curious about what bait you felt was there and why it needed to be avoided?

I am feeling concerned that this conversation my be unfolding with a defensive posture that isn't necessarily warranted.    How would stopping the conversation earlier helped to prepare more fertile ground for on going discussion?

And of course FFw is complaining that we don't talk, asks me questions about the schedule..and then overtalks my answer.  

I can see FFw's point here.    You don't communicate with her in the way she finds most comfortable.   I can see why she would overtalk your answer as she hurries to get her "stuff" in before the conversation is redirected or shut down.   There is no doubt your wife feels unheard and that's very real for her.

[Fian]

I don't have kids, but if my 15 year old daughter tried to dictate the terms, it would go badly.  Personally, I would shut the door (no counselor) if she didn't agree to your terms.

[Notwendy]

I agree that a 15 year old doesn't get to call the shots here, completely. However, an ultimatum- agree with my plan or no counselor may leave her with two choices. A counselor she doesn't want to talk to, or none at all, and I think if a teen asks for one, this is a call of desperation.

I say this because, I too felt the need for someone to talk to when I was a teen, and I could not talk to my BPD mother. To try to discuss my mother with my father would not work- it would violate the marriage to side with the teen "against" the spouse and not be good for the teen. In addition, there are possible teen girl concerns that she does not want to discuss with her parents. It is very tough to grow up in a home with a BPD parent. I would support finding someone she can talk to.

To close the door if she doesn't agree would be not providing help she needs. To insist on it being a parent's choice might infringe on her relationship with the T. She may not be able to trust the T, or even like the T. If this is forced on her, she might just sit there and not say much. It won't be helpful to her. So this option is also not providing help she needs.

My choice would be to find someone who both parent and child can agree on. If she wants a biblical counselor, find one you also think is reasonable. Somehow this can be worked out. I think it's important to hear her, discuss your feelings and arrive at a decision that works for both of you.

Soon she's going to be an adult. I agree that it's not good to be too permissive. But she is also learning how to negotiate and to have her own opinions and being authoritarian in this case may cause harm to the relationship and to her. She's not asking for something unreasonable. She's asking for help.

[Fian]

FF was trying to be flexible in his approach to her, which I agree was good.  However, she insisted on it being only on her terms.  That is when I said I would push back.  If she wants a T, she also needs to show some flexibility and respect to her father.

[Notwendy]

Yes, she does.

But she pushed back with an agressive stand " I want it my way".

Of course, that isn't an appropriate demand to a parent, and it is in a way disrespectful. But pushing back with an ultimatum right away will shut her down.

FF was out of town for a day. The kids were with BPD mom.

We still don't know exactly what happened during this time. When he left, things were one way, and then he came back and something happened.

The teen is acting out of line. But rather than pushing back with another ultimatum showing one's authority and control, I would suggest taking a pause, hearing her out. Something is going on with her emotionally.

I am not suggesting FF give in to a demanding teen. I just don't think pushing back with an ultimatum is the best response. Hear the girl out. Maybe something happened she's upset about. Maybe she's being an impetuous teen. Find out first, then make the appropriate response.

I think we are actually in agreement that FF should not give in to a demanding teen. I just think a pause in the push back on his part would leave the door open for communication.

[livednlearned]

Uggg..it's "BPDish..."  my alarm bells are going off.

Had you thought this about D15 earlier or is this a new thing?

[formflier]

   How would stopping the conversation earlier helped to prepare more fertile ground for on going discussion?
 

I still don't know the "ahhhaaaa" here but things seems to be softening.

There are lots of good points to expand on here when I have time.  There is the pickle that I felt myself in...I needed to continue the conversation in order to get "data" (my way of thinking)...but we know more words equals more chances for a landmine.

There is also history with this child of "well you weren't clear that I couldn't (fill in the blank)..therefor it is ok"

So...I clarified what exactly her parents had said yes to for her to do this weekend and what would take two yes answers (from her parents) to add in.

I'll share some of the exact texts later but the gist of it is "bad father" (implicit a good father gives me what I "need" argument...needs and wants conflated)

Thanks so much for these responses.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Had you thought this about D15 earlier or is this a new thing?

This is my 4th child and has the most FFw in her.  She was also at a tender age when "the bad stuff" was really going on in our house.

So..yes...I've seen the most out of her and have worked with my T on several responses to bigger issues...so as to not "push her in the wrong direction".

Best,

FF

[formflier]

I agree that a 15 year old doesn't get to call the shots here, completely. However, an ultimatum- agree with my plan or no counselor may leave her with two choices. A counselor she doesn't want to talk to, or none at all, and I think if a teen asks for one, this is a call of desperation.
 

Sadly we also know that there are counselors, especially "biblical ones" (intentional use of small b) that she would be better off having no T at all.

In other words..they will validate the invalid and make things worse.

She believes and explicitly states that she and only she can know who is biblical or not and a Christian...and that her parents don't have a say in this.

uggg

Of course..said with high emotions..but still, those things are in there and very dangerous territory.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

I don't have kids, but if my 15 year old daughter tried to dictate the terms, it would go badly.  Personally, I would shut the door (no counselor) if she didn't agree to your terms.

Yeah...maybe this is the area I'm most pleased with "not taking the bait".

I simply said "that's not the way the world works"...your Mom and I are involved.  (didn't say we are the only deciders...trying to stay off extremes)

You guys know me...you know what I really wanted to say...

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

I completely agree that there needs to be a firm boundary with the idea of "picking the counselor".

I didn't know the part about her saying only she knows if the counselor is Biblical or not.

Is this the same D who wanted to attend a certain church where there was a certain boy there?

Because the request to me sounds like she already has the counselor in mind that she wants- and is using this as a way to get something she wants.

You respond to "Biblical talk". Wrapping a request as Biblical gets your attention because it's something that is important to you. Saying " can I spend Sunday with this cute boy?" is less likely to get your approval than " want to attend this Bible based church".

Regardless, something else is going on and you need to know what that is. I do have empathy for her as I was once a 15 year old subjected to the control of my BPD mom. My parents expected obedience and they pretty much got it. I wasn't the type to try to bend the rules. I did respect my parents but I also feared them, feared them too much. I think kids need boundaries but they also need to feel safe and secure in their own home. I didn't, so I also get concerned that acting out behavior can be a cry for help.

Ask her if she has anyone in mind as a counselor.  That may be a clue to her motive. It doesn't mean you agree but that you begin to find out what she is thinking and what she wants.

[livednlearned]

It might help to organize content and delivery ...

From what you've shared there seem to be two legitimate issues:

*She wants to see a therapist
*She doesn't feel you see what's going on with her

Then other issues to do with how she goes about getting needs met:

*She didn't get what she wanted (weekend with friend) so she kitchen sinked you
*She wants to pick the therapist (she's the decider)
*She expects you to know what's going on with her

Where is FFw in this as it plays out?

[formflier]

*She didn't get what she wanted (weekend with friend) so she kitchen sinked you
*She wants to pick the therapist (she's the decider)
 
 

Seeing it this way made me go...oh...I see why she was so "I get to decide something".

"I will decide..."

Thanks...very very helpful to see it that way.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

I didn't know the part about her saying only she knows if the counselor is Biblical or not.

Is this the same D who wanted to attend a certain church where there was a certain boy there?

Because the request to me sounds like she already has the counselor in mind that she wants- and is using this as a way to get something she wants.
 

Yes..same girl.  Will be 16 this fall according to her birth certificate...she seems to think she is the same as her older sister who is 23...sigh.

Anyway, I certainly was afraid that she had stuff at "that" church in mind and yes that boy is still around.

However...like most teenage boys...open mouth and torpedo yourself seems to happen.  (maybe happened to FF as a teen...all of a sudden I couldn't get dates anywhere...)

Anyway...this boy kinda "upgraded" his friend group and tried to bring d15 along...that part went ok and then he didn't want her to hang around her old friends any.  Well...D15 didn't take kindly to her friends being criticized or being thought less of.

We are so lucky that we have guided our kids away from the "it" or "in" or "hip" crowd.  When you see our kids friends they don't really "fit a mold". 

Anyway...so I guess this boy moved into the jock crowd his mouth solved D15s crush problem. 

We haven't had a long talk about it yet..waiting till I can chat about it without  a grin or sigh of relief..which probably wouldn't go well for me (apparently already on double super secret probation with D15... )

Best,

FF

[formflier]

OH...and I think we have a solution and pretty sure I have FFw to thank for this.

I'm going to sleep on this before saying yes, but it appears that D15 is ok havin a talk with her youth leader at church, who is the senior pastors wife (lady in her 60s).

I should update everyone...lots of praying and steadiness has resulted in FF family joining a church that everyone seems happy with.

Still fairly conservative..but not whacky.

They are also "pro psychology" and are not onboard with ACBC.

https://biblicalcounseling.com/

That is the governing body that I crossed swords with.  The reason this church wouldn't "sign on" with acbc is that acbc makes counselors "swear off psychology"..bible only.

Anyway...

I really like the pastor his wife and rest of staff. 

Their attitude is if it's something they can handle..they handle it.  If it get more complicate...bring in more resources.

So...very hopeful.

I don't have full story on what FFw said to get D15 to arrange this...  We should be able to chat more about this tomorrow evening.

Luckily...FFw is not ok with kids being in charge either...

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

Nice solution.

I am glad your family found a church that you feel comfortable with. The choice of a married woman in her 60's brings perspective.

[formflier]

Yes..I agree about perspective.

We've had the pastor and his wife over to our house for dinner...been around them at small groups and have listened to them chat through things they have gone through as a couple and as parents (they are grandparents now).


Anyway...I've briefly gone over this with FFw via text/phone...we should have time to chat in person this evening.  I'll be surprised if something comes up that makes me shy away from this.

Best,

FF

[ForeverDad]

Disordered POV:
"I have the Bible and don't need counseling!" — my then-spouse responding to our then-pediatrician's suggestion months before our marriage imploded

Reasonable POV:
"She needs to see a psychologist" — an elder in the congregation with emergency medical background, also months before our marriage imploded