Brief weird update, just venting

[khibomsis]

  stolencrumbs Lacan! Yes, for BS dressed up in fine language he has few equals.

kells I wish I had had a stepmom like you when I was growing up with a uNBPD mom. Being heard is one of the deepest losses I mourn these days. You hearing them and encouraging them to express their feelings without judgement will set them up for expecting to be heard in their relationships. It will make a world of difference.

One thing I often ponder with my pwBPD is how vulnerable, even exploitable, they can be when they meet someone crazier then them. It is something we easily forget on these boards as we are targets of abuse. But they have no standard for normality and that renders them vulnerable. The best you can do is exactly what you are doing: teaching your stepdaughters by example to expect respect and compassion in relationships.

[formflier]

The best you can do is exactly what you are doing: teaching your stepdaughters by example to expect respect and compassion in relationships.

And that can be a difficult balancing act.  Especially when the "stuff" they spew hurts us (others we love)

It can be really hard to realize that there are usually many "hurts" that are at the core of what spews out of them...and to have compassion for those hurts...and at the same time respecting their decisions to hurt others and and at the same time having boundaries to protect yourself from the hurt.

That's a tall order...

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

Khibosis so true: how vulnerable, even exploitable, they can be when they meet someone crazier then them.

I have thought it interesting that my mother will trust a total stranger and not her own children. She also behaves better with acquaintances than her own family. Another poster has said "BPD is a disorder of intimacy" and impacts the most intimate of relationships first.

Maybe it's because my BPD mother projects on to the people closest to her. But she doesn't trust us and yet, will then take the opionion of someone remote to her. We have countless examples of this.

For many of us growing up in a family with a dysfunctional member, we don't know what an emotionally healthier relationship is. But you are demonstrating how one works. Granted- no relationship is without it's issues but when you have them, you are also role modeling how people work them out in a constructive and caring way.

[CoherentMoose]

HA! 

Just...I don't know...lololololololololol. Seriously, among philosophers I know, those two are somewhere below Dr. Seuss on the pecking order of important and insightful thinkers.

Indeed, quote of the month!

I love Dr. Seuss...

On a much more serious note, sounds like the xBPDw's husband (former friend) is one hell of a peach.  I really hate to say this, but...be mindful of grooming the children.  Someone with such a twisted sense of morals should be monitored carefully and nothing assumed as for lines he won't cross.  I had a classmate in high school who fell prey to someone with such twisted moral character.  CoMo

[kells76]

This is pure venting; again, not sure that there's anything to solve. But again, it's just so... weird... that I can't just talk about it with anyone. Had to be here.

So DH has a friend who is friends with a family that used to be friends with Mom and Stepdad. Small community. This friend went to catch up with the family the other day. The family has been trying to adopt a child from an African country for a couple of years now. So friend and family are chit chatting and family tells friend, "You know what, we got the most hurtful email from Stepdad the other day". Apparently Stepdad, who as far as I know hasn't been in real touch with this family in years, emailed them to say that it was racist to adopt from another country, blah blah blah. Lots of hurtful stuff.

I guess what blows my mind (but shouldn't) is the absolute gall of stepping into someone else's life and dictating to them how to do their family, and that the way they're doing their family is not just hurtful but evil.

I get that international adoption isn't a miracle panacea, that keeping kids in their families and communities is important. But I'm floored that someone would think "because of the color of your skin and the child's skin, it's better for the kid to live in oppression, poverty, sickness, and neglect, than with you and your love".

This coming from someone who goes to all the women's marches for reproductive freedom. "Stay out of my family decisions!" Unless it's someone else's family and decisions, then it's fair game for you to dictate their choices and condemn them as evil?

It's also jaw dropping coming from someone who as far as I know doesn't spend a whole lot of time donating money to family strengthening programs overseas, family shelters in town, or child sponsorship. I mean, if you disagree with adoption, that's a fair point to debate, but how about putting your money where your mouth is?

I shouldn't even be surprised by the level of legitimate narcissism any more. But here I am, floored again. I think he seriously thinks he's in a superior position all the time, and can act as a god to others -- telling them what's right and wrong based on what he's doing or not doing in his life.

I know I've overused this emoji in this thread, but this merits 5: 

...

In terms of the impact on the kids... the kids know we sponsor a child overseas and they help write to her. SD13 has heard me mention considering adoption (though not in a "we're seriously going down this road" way, more in an "I'm open to it" way). All I can hope is that one day they'll see how hurtful and hateful it is to judge families and family choices by skin colors.

[Notwendy]

We don't get into politics on this board, ( thankfully) so I'll try to discuss this topic - which is also divided politically- in a neutral stance with consideration of how both sides might perceive it.

On one hand, adopting a baby from Africa can be seen as bringing a child into a loving home that can provide well for the child's needs. On the other hand it might be viewed as a form of cultural appropriation, diminishing the child's culture, and making their culture superior. It seems your view is the former and SD's is the latter.

Where SD has crossed the boundary is assuming his point of view is the only correct view and imposing his opinion on the family who wants to adopt. It's really none of his business how or why a family brings a baby into their home, or deciding on their capacity to love and raise a baby. Adding narcisism to our current political climate seems to be an obnoxious combination.

[formflier]

I spent a lot of time in central and south america while in the Navy.  One of my goals is to take some of my kids back down there sometime for a service/mission trip.

There is nothing like seeing things in person to help "reset" your view of what poverty and need really is.

Good on this family for going down the road of adoption.  I'm acquainted with a few families that have done this...and it's not an easy road.

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

I think it's unfortunate how politics has been infused into how we perceive each other. Looking at people through the political lens seems to cloud our vision of their intentions.

The actual political spectrum is diverse, people with good intentions on both sides, and disordered people on both sides. Disordered people do disordered things and that's going to impact SD's behavior. Seems he didn't respect that family's boundaries.

[kells76]

Notwendy, I think I'm with you that the core issue that unsettles me isn't "adoption" or "not adoption" but "boundaries".

I actually do see adoption as a "necessary evil" (note, not actually evil, just using that idiomatic expression). How sad to live in a world where a child might not grow up with both its parents. And individuals aren't replaceable monads, able to be shuffled about the board of this world with absolutely no repercussions. It's not nothing to have a sense of place and roots; losing that is big. So I'm glad that many international adoption programs also have sponsorship and family strengthening programs -- not in the sense of "those people had better stay where they are and not come over here", but because community and home turf and belonging and continuity are gifts of stability.

But then, there's the other side: for children with special needs / disabilities, sadly their country of origin may never have the therapies and resources they'll need to survive and thrive. Condemning such a child to a life of neglect and marginalization because a family that could love them has a different skin color? That gets my ire up.

That being said, if I thought that Stepdad was concerned about an actual, individual child, and about how potentially difficult that world change could be... then sure, yeah, we'd be in the same boat.

But Stepdad is concerned about himself and doing things that reinforce his "extremely special, superior, uniquely insightful" point of view. Like you said:

Where SD has crossed the boundary is assuming his point of view is the only correct view and imposing his opinion on the family who wants to adopt. It's really none of his business how or why a family brings a baby into their home

As I think about why this bugs me so much, it's because of the impact on the kids. The more of these "Stepdad has no boundaries grounded in reality" things I hear about and literally see, the more I worry for the kids. I know that what I've seen and heard can't be all the ways he's boundary-busted. It's what CoherentMoose brought up:

Someone with such a twisted sense of morals should be monitored carefully and nothing assumed as for lines he won't cross.

I have a nagging worry about -- what if he's crossed lines with the kids he shouldn't have, and DH and I haven't known or couldn't have known or should've seen it or noticed. How do we even make sure they're OK when they both, to different extents, still think of Stepdad as the perfect rescuing white knight hero.

...

One of my goals is to take some of my kids back down there sometime for a service/mission trip.

100%. We hope to do this with the kids someday too. I've done a few of those trips myself in HS/college and they were eye-openers.

I'm acquainted with a few families that have done this...and it's not an easy road.

That's my understanding as well. Part of me thinks: Well, if I've survived our uniquely high intensity stepparenting situation, what could be harder than that? Maybe adoption/fostering would be a piece of cake after everything we've been through. But it's also been exhausting and I'm not sure I'm ready for another go. Who knows, we'll see where we're at in a few years.

...

I think it's unfortunate how politics has been infused into how we perceive each other. Looking at people through the political lens seems to cloud our vision of their intentions.

It feels to me like that infusion has accelerated in the last 10-15 years or so. I distinctly remember dating someone of polar opposite (now that I reflect on it) sociopolitical views, back in college. But neither of us cared! In fact, neither of us even had a sense that "we should care more than we do". It was so tangential and... uninteresting.

I wish the kids could grow up in a world where one's political affiliation was considered marginal at best, and profoundly uninteresting and nonimpactful for 99% of life. Even SD15 has commented on how political all the covid/mask stuff has been. I told her I'm sorry it's like that and I wish it weren't. It's so toxic. But it may be the natural outflow of "the personal is political" mindset.

Disordered people do disordered things and that's going to impact SD's behavior. Seems he didn't respect that family's boundaries.

Right. The content of the email is not the issue. He could've easily written a boundary-busting, hurtful email from any other political perspective, and the core issue would remain the same -- he sees himself as elevated above the rules for others, and in a place to bestow his moral imperatives on the less worthy.

And that divorce from reality is what concerns me.

[Notwendy]

Well I hope that the family who got the email doesn't look to SD for their decisions and goes ahead and does what they feel in their hearts to do.

My guess is that they are aware that there will likely be people out there who judge them for their decision and people who don't- and they can choose their friends. I think the most likely outcome is that SD's email strained their friendship.

I think what's concerning you is the difference in moral and world view between the two environments the girls are in. Unfortunately, there is no grounds for intervention on your part unless they do something illegal. I still think the best you can do is live according to your own morals. The girls are exposed to both, but ultimately they will form their own world view. Guiding them and listening to them may be the best you can do.

[Cat Familiar]

I know of people who’ve adopted babies whose skin color didn’t match theirs. Yes, there are some issues that arise, and there wouldn’t be these problems in a perfect world. But how on earth does that compare with a child having to grow up impoverished and hungry?

It’s not like these kids who are available for adoption have a lot of other positive choices. It’s one thing to offer a realistic overview of some of the struggles a family might deal with, and a child could have with parents who are dissimilar. But to play the “racism” card!  

I guess it’s better in his mind to “let nature happen” with these underprivileged kids than to try and help just one.  

[ForeverDad]

On a Gutfeld episode 4/26 I saw "Dr Drew" Pinsky describe the past versus today...

"There's a very strange phenomenon happening right now and I've noticed it in the last couple of months which we have, I wrote about this in a book about the Narcissistic Turn, we have a lot of NARCISSISM over the last 10-15 maybe even 20 years, we have now moved into HISTRIONICS where everything is hyper-emotional, everything is a panic-stricken dramatic event, everything, and the way you deal with histrionics is with grounding them in reality and containing them, people have got to get grounded and they have to, you don't gratify it... you can't gratify it, you can't continue to escalate it, you have to push it down, ground it, contain it, we have to get back to reality..."

I have a memory from when I was a preteen on my family's cross country vacation, we had a day trip into Tijuana - then a safe city - and we shopped for hours and I got an engraved leather wallet.  If it wasn't for a large family traveling in cramped circumstances, I would have gotten a big Mexican hat... talk about today's sins of "cultural appropriation", obsession with skin color, etc... sadly the mob mentality is being fomented today and that's right up the acting-out PD's alley.

[livednlearned]

a family that used to be friends with Mom and Stepdad

Probably not surprising given SD's over-reaching:

"...we got the most hurtful email from Stepdad the other day"

I would love to know if/how they responded 

[worriedStepmom]

Lots of issues in this story.

Stepdad likely stomped on a boundary by sending the email to a friend (and possibly they had a relationship that supported that until he said something that hurt them?) This isn't any of your business.  It doesn't affect the kids in any way.

Then there's the adoptive family spreading that news. (Possibly not a boundary issue, as they were discussing something that hurt them with a friend they trusted.)  This isn't any of your business, since you aren't close with that family.

Then there's the other friend telling your DH the story.  This is the one I'm most worried about.  What the heck?  That's just drama-mongering.  The only possible goal of sharing this stuff is to negatively influence your opinion about stepdad.

I don't want people keeping tabs on my ex or SD's mom and relaying that to me.  Their lives are not my business, except what they choose to share with me or what the children share about their lives at their other houses.  Likewise, I don't want people sharing info about me with my ex or SD's mom.  Not their business, except what we or the kids choose to share.  I have a terrific relationship with my former MIL. In ten years, she has never shared info about ex with me or info about me to him.  We have plenty of other stuff to talk about.  I hope your H sets a firm boundary with his friend that this type of gossip is not appropriate.

  This next bit is harsh, and please know that it is coming from a place of caring and respect.

You need to stop worrying about whether your morals and values are superior to those of mom and stepdad, or whether mom and stepdad are hypocrites.   (They have personality disorders - it would be unusual if they weren't hypocritical sometimes.)

If your kids are being taught progressive values in their other house, if they sense this attitude that from you, they will be more likely to turn away from your teachings right now - not because they disagree with your example or your values, but because they are taught that being judgmental (in a conservative way) is bad.

You are investing A LOT of energy into analyzing stepdad.  There's zero way for you to influence his choices, so this is pointless.

All you can do is live your life true to your values and morals, and explain to the kids why you make the choices that you do.  They will see your consistency and know that you actually believe it.  If mom and stepdad's actions are not consistent with their words, they will also see that.  The children determine from the two examples which values and morals make most sense to them and how they want to live those.

Also, it's probably too late for these worries.  My moral core was pretty set in stone by age 12.  Some of it follows my mom's example/teachings, some from church, some from books I read, some from examples of others in my community. 

[kells76]

Hey WSM, thanks for your thoughts.

Let me know if there is anything else you'd like me to know, to understand where you're coming from.

Best;

kells76

[livednlearned]

It's hard when you've been triangulated relentlessly by someone else (Stepdad) and deeply invalidated by chronic covert aggression dressed up as something else. It's enough to make you   nuts.

It takes so much to make sense of it. Just describing it to other people can make you doubt your reality, not to mention it feels like you're constantly over-reacting.

That's the nuttery of covert aggression. It makes you feel like you can't address it openly with others. We end up sounding like we're fixated on someone who otherwise appears innocent.

Stepdad doing x to other people in a way validates the aggression that is more or less hidden behind his schtick.

It probably helps in a way that doesn't help your overall well-being to know he's out of bounds with others because at the end of the day, even if it's validating to know this, he's renting space in your head.

And yet, sometimes it's therapeutic to open the valve and let off a bit of that pressure.

I worked with a somatic experiencing therapist who noticed that I struggle to deal with anger. She would hear me out on what were relatively subtle SD24 aggressions and instead of brush it off, which I can do externally but not as much internally, she had me focus on physical responses.

My uBPD brother was violent toward me and a childhood of being unable to fight back left lasting damage. I tolerate other people's aggression like a boss but it takes a huge toll. In body-based therapy there's an opportunity to deal with subtle aggression as though it's visceral. I'm so deeply conflict avoidant that I can barely write this ... but in the safe space with a therapist the most therapeutic thing I've ever done is to physically do what I deep down wanted to do. I can't even write it  

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it feels validating to get this stuff out with people who understand, but that it won't fully heal what's hurting. For that, I think you have to find a way to translate this vague type of aggression into something tangible that you can process. Otherwise, it's too easy to sweep this stuff under the rug and act like it isn't bothering us, when of course it's seeping like poison through everything.

These pathologic relationships can feel like death by paper cut. The aggression accumulates until you think you can't breathe.

I guess the question is what to do with the knowledge that someone else is occupying precious space in your head.

When I am thinking about SD24, I try to catch it and ask myself if that's how I want to be spending my time. Is there anything there that I need to pay attention to, or is it more of the same. I'm probably as skilled as I'll get when it comes to her, so unless there is something that needs upskilling, I try to put her in a box in my mind and set it in my blind spot.

This pathological stuff is really confusing and I think it's good to put it out here with people who understand not just the PD traits, but also how it affects us.

[Notwendy]

I understand the struggle and the need to vent to make some sense of twisted morality.

My BPD mother isn't amoral in the serious sense. She wouldn't rob a bank or anything like that. My parents taught me morals. But for BPD mom, the rules don't apply to her. She lies to me, and then tells me she has not ever lied to me. She makes up lies about me to other people. I'd get in trouble for not cleaning up my things. She would rage and trash the house.

You worry about the dual morals in the homes, but I also had an idea of what is right and what is wrong - for me. I won't say I discovered it perfectly. I made some errors, but realized that just because someone else does something, doesn't mean I feel right with it.

With my parents, I think I accepted the basic set of morals they taught me, but I did not take on BPD mother's interpretation of them. I wasn't comfortable with that. So I think the girls will also decide for themselves as well. They won't necessarily take on stepdad's morals.

[worriedStepmom]

It's normal to need to vent and to wonder what on earth they are thinking.  It's just not healthy to live in that space too much.

That's why I was worried about the severe boundary overstep of H's friend sharing gossip about what stepdad did.

It's one thing when it's you randomly being in a place to see something stepdad is doing (with other lady), it's another when people are feeding y'all info designed to make you think badly of stepdad.

It's healthier for me to have uBPDmom blocked on all social media, and any mutual acquaintances know not to discuss her with us.  That means I only have to mentally freak out when uBPDmom is in our actual orbit.