Does a healthy relationship with BPD exist?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

After reading so many other posts of people whose stories are so similar to my own, I keep asking myself the question, "Does a healthy relationship even exist with someone who has BPD?"

Can they get support or change? Can it ever work?

[KittyB]

After reading so many other posts of people whose stories are so similar to my own, I keep asking myself the question, "Does a healthy relationship even exist with someone who has BPD?"

Can they get support or change? Can it ever work?

[Changeland]

Gosh I hope so. Although now 7 years in I question my own sense of sanilty and self-worth every day that I stay.

[KittyB]

Gosh I hope so. Although now 7 years in I question my own sense of sanilty and self-worth every day that I stay.

Thank you for this, and I totally understand... do all the behaviours still happen and maybe you just put up with it?

Not judging btw, just trying to understand what I'd be in for if I ever decided to get back into it with my ex... because I know that deep down, I keep hoping he will change and come back to me and we can have the "good" side rather than both sides.

[grumpydonut]

The subjective answer is found on the bettering board.

The - partly - objective answer is no.

If it were healthy, they wouldn't by definition have BPD. The core of BPD diagnosis is "unstable interpersonal relationships".

[KittyB]

The subjective answer is found on the bettering board.

The - partly - objective answer is no.

If it were healthy, they wouldn't by definition have BPD. The core of BPD diagnosis is "unstable interpersonal relationships".

This is helpful, thank you.

I'm very, very new to BPD and this is a big learning curve.

[once removed]

i understand that this is partly a question predicated on your partial (if complicated) hopes of reuniting.

its a complicated question in general. its a complicated question as it applies to your circumstances.

speaking generally, i suppose it depends on how one defines a "healthy relationship". we have a pretty good list of characteristics here: https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/characteristics-healthy-relationships

for some perspective on this, there are, in the US alone, millions of people with BPD, millions more with BPD traits, that wouldnt necessarily reach the threshold for a diagnosis, but may be a very difficult person to love.

of those, scores of them have have been in romantic relationships/marriages for decades. we have folks here that have been married for 3, 4 decades, or longer. "can it ever work" is ultimately what is subjective. the most dysfunctional relationships in the world can "work". ive also seen the worst case scenarios, with hard work, turn around. some are happy. some are "good enough". some are miserable.

but if i told you that 99% of relationships with people with bpd are healthy and work (i pulled that out of my butt) or the opposite of that, it would have no bearing on your own.

i read the story that brought you here, and ill say this: my own relationship could have been much healthier. i could have done a lot on my end to make it so. i dont think that her and i ever could have "worked". as much as we loved each other, we were just too different. the truth is, and this was hard for me to grasp, in terms of whether a relationship can work or not, bpd is only a part of the equation.

the truth in your case is very complicated. it will make greater sense as you heal.

[KittyB]

speaking generally, i suppose it depends on how one defines a "healthy relationship". we have a pretty good list of characteristics here: https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/characteristics-healthy-relationships

Thank you so much for this whole response. It really makes a lot of sense. My mum was a marriage counsellor many years ago, and I can remember when I was unhappy in my marriage, she said that "If you're happy 80% of the time, you're lucky." But then I started seeing a psychologist, and when I mentioned this, the psych said, "Firstly, ARE you happy 80% of the time, and if you are, is it enough for you?"

It's all very subjective.

I'm a trained coach and do a lot of personal development work. I'm always making the effort to be self-aware, and to work on areas I think need attention.

Getting involved with this guy was really far outside what I know was the right thing for me, right from day one. There were red flags I ignored because of the incredible chemistry. I found myself coaching and examining myself when I would put up with his outbursts etc, and say things to myself like, "Hmmm... the way he raised his voice and called you a name today, and then apologised later, is like the cycle of abuse... why are you putting up with that?" So I could see it happening but felt myself powerless to the "good" side of our connection.

I've worked with a coach on my list of desired qualities in a partner, and ones which are important to me to make a relationship work - #1 emotional intelligence, #2 ability to communicate and resolve conflict kindly, #3 physical intimacy/connection/chemistry. He/we had #3 but not #1/#2. During this relationship I learned that #1 and #2 were equally or more important than #3 (which had been lacking with my ex-husband and therefore super important)...

So I guess I do know the answer to the question... that from what I have seen, he and I could never have a 'healthy' relationship, because the top traits just aren't there.

I suppose that I'm still hoping he will "change", because we did discuss communication/conflict, and at the time he said he was willing to learn... but then again, he hasn't done much to actually change it. He did go to therapy and a men's group for a while, but that hasn't happened for a few weeks.

He's literally just called me to say that he misses me and wants us to run away together... and I said that's a nice idea, but it's not realistic. He is willing to talk about how he can address each area of his life, one by one. So even though I can't ever see a relationship, I'd love to see him doing better than he's doing.

[KittyB]

A couple of hours after my last post, he called me.

From the police station.

He'd been arrested for being in his car (stationary), asleep, with a beer can in between his legs, keys in ignition, and .224 alcohol reading.

I had to sign to say that I'd take him home and stay with him until he sobered up.

His car is unregistered and uninsured too.

We had the best talk we've ever had, about what he fears, what he's struggling with, etc. He's never realised that he has a fear of abandonment, but last night it hit him for the first time. He talked about all the mistakes he's made and what a terrible partner he's been to me and his two past long-term relationships (he has children with both). His whole life is a mess and he has a long way to go to clean it up - and that's assuming he wants to.

He said that he wants to be together and I'm his perfect woman... and in that moment it dawned on me that I don't feel the same anymore. I was holding onto the idea of us, and how we are physically... he is not someone I could have a life with.

It was a very free-ing moment!

[once removed]

Getting involved with this guy was really far outside what I know was the right thing for me, right from day one.

i think thats the case for a lot of us. not for everyone, at least not initially; after all, theres an awful lot about the relationship that sure feels right.

but if pursuing something you felt was not the right thing for you is something you identify with, following that thread will ultimately help you detach. a lot of us found our relationships at a certain vulnerable time in our lives, and it was rejuvenating.

if the question is really "can my relationship with someone with bpd ever be healthy", it helps to look at the foundation the relationship was built on. if it wasnt a healthy one, you cant keep building on something that isnt healthy and expect it to become healthy. you would have to grieve it as if it were dead, and treat any new iteration as a very different relationship, with a very different game plan. even then, there would be no guarantees.

and in that moment it dawned on me that I don't feel the same anymore. I was holding onto the idea of us, and how we are physically... he is not someone I could have a life with.

It was a very free-ing moment!

it happens. sometimes, something passionate, wild, and exciting comes into our lives, and its very alluring. sometimes, it loses its luster, and all you see is drama.

[KittyB]

but if pursuing something you felt was not the right thing for you is something you identify with, following that thread will ultimately help you detach. a lot of us found our relationships at a certain vulnerable time in our lives, and it was rejuvenating.

I got very swept up in the start, but there were those little red flags that I noticed and kept in the back of my mind, but the good was good enough to ignore them.

And you're so right... suddenly now, all I can see is drama and sadness. It's a relief to not feel so engaged. The last month had been so hard for me and I felt like I was getting depressed. It feels good to be detaching myself!

[Cromwell]

He'd been arrested for being in his car (stationary), asleep, with a beer can in between his legs, keys in ignition, and .224 alcohol reading.

I had to sign to say that I'd take him home and stay with him until he sobered up.

The alternative would have been to have left him in cell to sober up.

You 'had' to take him home.

[KittyB]

The alternative would have been to have left him in cell to sober up.

You 'had' to take him home.

Fair point. It never would have occurred to me to leave him there, to be honest.

[Sappho11]

A couple of hours after my last post, he called me.

From the police station.

He'd been arrested for being in his car (stationary), asleep, with a beer can in between his legs, keys in ignition, and .224 alcohol reading.

Central European here, and not trying to be contrarian, but what exactly is unlawful here? Genuinely curious.

(Not that I condone this behaviour)

He said that he wants to be together and I'm his perfect woman... and in that moment it dawned on me that I don't feel the same anymore. I was holding onto the idea of us, and how we are physically... he is not someone I could have a life with.

It was a very free-ing moment!

Good for you! Now the difficult part: To stick with it.

Notice how everything he said was about himself and himself only? Did he in fact say anything to you that was about you as a person?

I made the mistake of falling for statements like:
"You're my dream woman."
"I can't believe I landed you."
"You understand me."
"You give me feelings I didn't know I had."

...thinking these were statements of love. They're not. They're selfish words of manipulation in order to secure narcissistic supply. None had anything to do with me as a person.

You're doing well extricating yourself. 

[ILMBPDC]

Central European here, and not trying to be contrarian, but what exactly is unlawful here? Genuinely curious.

It depends on the state law on what he was brought in for, but most likely something to do with the assumption that he was drinking and driving or was about to do so (since the keys were in the ignition, he was drunk and had an open beer on him) OR it could be an open container law (no open containers of alcohol in a car, though usually I think they have to be actually driving for that? Again, each state makes their own laws so who knows)

[Sappho11]

It depends on the state law on what he was brought in for, but most likely something to do with the assumption that he was drinking and driving or was about to do so (since the keys were in the ignition, he was drunk and had an open beer on him)

Wait, what? How can one get arrested for an offence one hasn't yet committed? I mean, I get this for a crime like planning to murder someone, but sleeping in your car with a beer can in your lap is hardly conclusive.

OR it could be an open container law (no open containers of alcohol in a car, though usually I think they have to be actually driving for that? Again, each state makes their own laws so who knows)

Fascinating. Thank you for clarifying.

[KittyB]

Central European here, and not trying to be contrarian, but what exactly is unlawful here? Genuinely curious.

It's the potential intent for him to drive - that the key was in the ignition and turned "on". He was over the limit too (.224, and the limit is 0.05). I asked the policeman to clarify, and he said that if he was asleep in the BACK seat, and the keys were not in the ignition or not in his hand, then it might be different, and they could use their discretion... but in this case, it appears as though he was going to drive, but had fallen asleep.

He has to appear in court and they will decide, but based on his history, Jason is concerned he'll go to jail.

[KittyB]

Notice how everything he said was about himself and himself only? Did he in fact say anything to you that was about you as a person?

He did actually give me a long list of things about myself, multiple times (I just didn't supply the whole list! ).

He said that I am kind, thoughtful, giving, smart, ambitious, funny, beautiful, sexy, fun, a great mother, a good friend, easy to talk to, make other people feel comfortable, etc etc. He has actually validated me more than any person I've ever known, including my ex husband. That's how I fell for him in the first place.

But yes, his degree of drama and issues has become a major turn off for me all of a sudden. It was like it's all fallen into place.

[grumpydonut]

He said that I am kind, thoughtful, giving, smart, ambitious, funny, beautiful, sexy, fun, a great mother, a good friend, easy to talk to, make other people feel comfortable, etc etc. He has actually validated me more than any person I've ever known, including my ex husband

In the moment, he 100% believes this. BPD individuals, as you may know, are dichotomous thinkers (black and white). So in that moment you were idealised, while in an instant he could tell you the complete opposite of this.

Personal anecdote: Mine said "you are the best person I have ever met" while she was sleeping with someone behind my back. In that moment, I have no idea she meant it, but two minutes later her emotions could have easily caused her to believe the exact opposite.

Overall point: It's safer to get validation from ourselves, than from people with BPD.

[KittyB]

Overall point: It's safer to get validation from ourselves, than from people with BPD.

Agreed... I'm working on it! Undoing 40+ years of getting it from outside!

[ILMBPDC]

He has actually validated me more than any person I've ever known, including my ex husband. That's how I fell for him in the first place.

I had the same experience. No other man has ever once said he appreciated me. Even when he sent me the text telling me he was no longer talking to me he said I was an amazing woman (and other nice things, I don't have the text anymore to quote it). I know its a big part of why I can't let go, and this is MY issue in having had unhealthy relationships my whole life - one guy is nice to me and I'm stuck. I just keep trying to point out to my brain all of the other things about the relationship that were not healthy and once good aspect shouldn't override that.

[KittyB]

I had the same experience. No other man has ever once said he appreciated me. Even when he sent me the text telling me he was no longer talking to me he said I was an amazing woman (and other nice things, I don't have the text anymore to quote it). I know its a big part of why I can't let go, and this is MY issue in having had unhealthy relationships my whole life - one guy is nice to me and I'm stuck. I just keep trying to point out to my brain all of the other things about the relationship that were not healthy and once good aspect shouldn't override that.

Yes, I totally get this. I have this deep fear that he might be the only person who ever "sees" me, and if it's over with him, nobody will ever lavish love and praise on me like he does.

However, I'm not sure about your ex, but mine has a whole heap of issues, including alcoholism. He drinks every time he's stressed or wants to relax or wants to celebrate or wants to forget about life. He can go months without any at all, and then it's every single day. When I saw him at 11.30am the other day, he was already drunk. It's helping me distance myself because I don't want that in my life (I come from a family with multiple alcoholics).

A turning point for me in meeting him in the first place was deciding that I was enough just as I am. That I was worthy and didn't need to lose weight or change in any way for somebody to love me... that they could take or leave me. That was a massive breakthrough for me because I was sick of looking at myself in the mirror and hating what I saw.

I met him literally the next day, and he told me all the things I'd always wanted to hear.

I figure that letting go  of him and maintaining the love and appreciation for myself will bring others who equally appreciate me, without all the added drama and extras.

It can be the same for you! What kind of things do you tell yourself about yourself?

[ILMBPDC]

I have this deep fear that he might be the only person who ever "sees" me, and if it's over with him, nobody will ever lavish love and praise on me like he does.

This. So much this.

However, I'm not sure about your ex, but mine has a whole heap of issues, including alcoholism. He drinks every time he's stressed or wants to relax or wants to celebrate or wants to forget about life. He can go months without any at all, and then it's every single day.

Yeah mine has his issues too, I don't know that I would call him an alcoholic but he did once admit he uses it to numb his feelings of inadequacy, etc. His impulsivity gives me whiplash and he spends money like water, both which trigger me (my previous relationship was with a con man who was impulsive and spent money like water...yeah I know how to pick them). I don't agree with probably 70% of his political stances.  I *know* that he is not the man for me. I really do!  But the broken inner child can't stop longing for the emotional connection we had (or, more accurately, the connection I had. Have.)

I figure that letting go  of him and maintaining the love and appreciation for myself will bring others who equally appreciate me, without all the added drama and extras.

It can be the same for you! What kind of things do you tell yourself about yourself?

That is actually something I am working on - the negative self talk has been with me forever.  I'm in therapy. I journal. I meditate. I do yoga. I'm working with a friend of mine who is training in trauma therapy (somatic experiencing). I went on a retreat in July and have another in September to help work on these things. Literally everything comes back to me needing to love myself, to look for validation within myself and not externally. 

Its been hard and my depression has gotten worse again over the last week or so.  But I'm trying, and right now that's all I can do. just keep going.

[Sappho11]

I have this deep fear that he might be the only person who ever "sees" me, and if it's over with him, nobody will ever lavish love and praise on me like he does.

This. So much this.

Ladies – it might not help immediately, but these feelings, as overwhelming as they seem now, will pass. It may be hard to imagine at present, but there will be a time when you won't be craving this kind of validation, because you're validating yourselves. It sounds stupid right now, but trust me, it's just a matter of time, and not an eternity, but some weeks, few months at most.

When I split up with my ex I had exactly the same feelings. And for about six or seven weeks afterwards, too. They slowly started to fade once I realised that all his "praise" had been fake, and that he had never truly seen me – but only the service I provided him.

It is said in psychological literature that women of a melancholy nature, no matter how slight, tend to end up with narcissist or BPD partners; our thoughts being more or less "Finally there's someone to whom I can give all this love I have inside of me". This makes us good partners. It also attracts emotionally greedy freeloaders like honey attracts flies.

We all deserve partners who will reciprocate the love we give. Consider your other relationships in life: Surely you have good friendships? Or perhaps work partnerships? Any kind of reciprocal relationship in your life is proof that there are good people out there. There is simply no reason why there shouldn't be someone who will reciprocate in kind romantically.

And regardless of whether or not you meet such a person (statistically, it is very likely almost to the point of inevitability), you'll eventually reach a good mental state where you'll be able to laugh about the loser that is your ex.

Or as this great article (https://www.heysigmund.com/toxic-relationship-how-to-let-go/) states:

Lose the fantasy that things will be different. They won’t be. If you could have lived the fantasy with this relationship, you would have done that by now. Let your fantasy instead be one of all the losers who have ever crossed your path sprawled on the couch, wearing saggy Star Wars underwear as they gaze at your photo, listen to Adele and regret like mad ever losing you, while you eat tacos, listen to Beyonce and not miss them at all.