Finding support while divorcing wife with BPD

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Hi everyone,

I'm new here. I came across the site when reading "Stop Walking on Eggshells."

I'm a 30-year-old woman, and I am divorcing my BPD wife of 2 years. We were together for a total of 8 years. She was diagnosed with BPD in 2015. The night she was diagnosed with BPD at a mental health facility, we had broken up amicably (or so I thought) and an hour later, she was in the bathroom pulling her hair out, harming herself, and threatening to kill herself if I left. I took her to get help, but she rejected the BPD diagnosis, and got very angry at the doctors she said "didn't know what they were talking about."

Cut to 6 years later. Things got better, lots of love bombing, etc. Things evened out for a few years. We got married. We left our home city and moved to the coast.

This April, I realized our relationship was over when I woke up on a Saturday morning and found my wife smoking weed, ten minutes before our landlord was scheduled to arrive. I asked her to stop as weed wasn't allowed in our apartment, and she started yelling at me. She swore at me, called me names and yelled, "Why the F__ am I with you?" I took space and went for a walk. Later, I came back calmly and explained how her behaviour hurt me. She did not take me seriously. She mocked me for crying. She said I was like " a dog with a bone." She said I was "enjoying being the victim." Over the next few days, she bought me gifts and tossed them to me while making jokes about this being a part of the apology tour. By Monday, I was emotionally exhausted and deeply sad. I texted her asking her to spend the next two nights with friends. I was angry, and I said I wanted a trial separation.

That was back at the beginning of April.

Initially, my wife was angry. Then, we got to a place where we both agreed we wanted an amicable, peaceful divorce. We both agreed we wanted to be friends in the future. At first, she respected my boundaries. We agreed I would stay in the apartment while she stayed with friends. Then, she began texting me every day. Sometimes I would get home and realize she had been in the apartment without my consent. When I would gently but firmly hold tight to my boundaries, reminding her this was my apartment as per our agreement, she would react with anger.

Less than two weeks after we agreed on an amicable divorce, she came by for some clothes. She was angry. She called me an abuser. She said she was keeping all 3 of our pets because I "couldn't be trusted to take care of animals and everyone agrees." She threw my abusive childhood in my face. I should note that I am in weekly therapy to address my abusive childhood. My therapist is happy with the work I've done. I was never abusive to my spouse. Suddenly, the end of our marriage was my entirely fault and "everyone agreed." She started showing up at the apartment with two other people to catch me off guard. Her behaviour became unpredictable and intimidating.

One of our 2 dogs was my emotional support dog. My spouse agreed that he should live with me and I should have him registered as an ESA. This was back when we were still amicable in the first weeks of the separation.

At the end of April 2021, I was in the shower, getting ready to take my ESA for a walk, when my spouse banged on the bathroom door. She'd come into the apartment without my knowledge or consent. She brought two people with her. She reached into the bathroom, took the dog, and locked me in, all the while screaming at me about how this was her dog. The two people she brought were larger and stronger than I was. They held the dog on the balcony out of reach and refused to return him. I was in a towel and distraught. I phoned the police but they said it was a civil matter.

 I was so traumatized by my former wife's violent behaviour that I stopped sleeping. I had suicidal thoughts. I lost 30 pounds. I miss my emotional support animal. I have flashbacks to the day she broke in. I can't shower without having anxiety and feeling unsafe.

We had just moved to a new city a year prior to our separation. I knew no one out there and was completely isolated. I worry that I started to accept BPD behaviour that wasn't normal. (For instance, last summer, my wife pretended to have psychically  'channeled' my late grandmother.  I was hurt by this. It felt so disrespectful. When I said I was hurt, my wife turned the blame on me and told me I was cruel for not believing her.)

After my wife broke into the apartment and stole my dog in April, I packed up just what would fit in my car, left town, and drove across the country during a pandemic. I was concerned for my safety.

I hired a family lawyer who filed a petition for divorce and a motion to have my ESA returned to me. My lawyer believes we have a strong case based on the fact that this is my emotional support animal, and we can prove to the court that the dog belongs to me. Also, my former wife already has our other 2 animals.

We have no assets to speak of. The only issue to litigate over is my dog.

Does anyone have any advice for divorcing someone with BPD? Has anyone experienced anything similar? The sudden shift in my former wife from wanting an amicable divorce to breaking into my apartment and stealing my dog is jarring and hard to wrap my head around.

I struggle with deep feelings of shame and guilt. I lived with her BPD for so long, and was so isolated in the new city for the last year, that I began to believe what she was saying––– that all the issues in our relationship were my fault, that I was lucky she stayed with me, that I had so much work I had to do to fix the problems of our relationship, how I was an abuser, too controlling, too critical, etc.

I've been out of this relationship for 3 months and I already feel so much better. My insomnia is gone, I have self-esteem again, I'm productive again. I have an apartment and a job and a wide network of friends. I can't believe I used to live like that.

I'm looking for some community to feel less alone.

Thank you, everyone, for listening. Any advice would be appreciated in terms of how to divorce someone with BPD or heal in the wake of a BPD relationship.

Wishing you all healing.

[shopgirl26]

Hi everyone,

I'm new here. I came across the site when reading "Stop Walking on Eggshells."

I'm a 30-year-old woman, and I am divorcing my BPD wife of 2 years. We were together for a total of 8 years. She was diagnosed with BPD in 2015. The night she was diagnosed with BPD at a mental health facility, we had broken up amicably (or so I thought) and an hour later, she was in the bathroom pulling her hair out, harming herself, and threatening to kill herself if I left. I took her to get help, but she rejected the BPD diagnosis, and got very angry at the doctors she said "didn't know what they were talking about."

Cut to 6 years later. Things got better, lots of love bombing, etc. Things evened out for a few years. We got married. We left our home city and moved to the coast.

This April, I realized our relationship was over when I woke up on a Saturday morning and found my wife smoking weed, ten minutes before our landlord was scheduled to arrive. I asked her to stop as weed wasn't allowed in our apartment, and she started yelling at me. She swore at me, called me names and yelled, "Why the F__ am I with you?" I took space and went for a walk. Later, I came back calmly and explained how her behaviour hurt me. She did not take me seriously. She mocked me for crying. She said I was like " a dog with a bone." She said I was "enjoying being the victim." Over the next few days, she bought me gifts and tossed them to me while making jokes about this being a part of the apology tour. By Monday, I was emotionally exhausted and deeply sad. I texted her asking her to spend the next two nights with friends. I was angry, and I said I wanted a trial separation.

That was back at the beginning of April.

Initially, my wife was angry. Then, we got to a place where we both agreed we wanted an amicable, peaceful divorce. We both agreed we wanted to be friends in the future. At first, she respected my boundaries. We agreed I would stay in the apartment while she stayed with friends. Then, she began texting me every day. Sometimes I would get home and realize she had been in the apartment without my consent. When I would gently but firmly hold tight to my boundaries, reminding her this was my apartment as per our agreement, she would react with anger.

Less than two weeks after we agreed on an amicable divorce, she came by for some clothes. She was angry. She called me an abuser. She said she was keeping all 3 of our pets because I "couldn't be trusted to take care of animals and everyone agrees." She threw my abusive childhood in my face. I should note that I am in weekly therapy to address my abusive childhood. My therapist is happy with the work I've done. I was never abusive to my spouse. Suddenly, the end of our marriage was my entirely fault and "everyone agreed." She started showing up at the apartment with two other people to catch me off guard. Her behaviour became unpredictable and intimidating.

One of our 2 dogs was my emotional support dog. My spouse agreed that he should live with me and I should have him registered as an ESA. This was back when we were still amicable in the first weeks of the separation.

At the end of April 2021, I was in the shower, getting ready to take my ESA for a walk, when my spouse banged on the bathroom door. She'd come into the apartment without my knowledge or consent. She brought two people with her. She reached into the bathroom, took the dog, and locked me in, all the while screaming at me about how this was her dog. The two people she brought were larger and stronger than I was. They held the dog on the balcony out of reach and refused to return him. I was in a towel and distraught. I phoned the police but they said it was a civil matter.

 I was so traumatized by my former wife's violent behaviour that I stopped sleeping. I had suicidal thoughts. I lost 30 pounds. I miss my emotional support animal. I have flashbacks to the day she broke in. I can't shower without having anxiety and feeling unsafe.

We had just moved to a new city a year prior to our separation. I knew no one out there and was completely isolated. I worry that I started to accept BPD behaviour that wasn't normal. (For instance, last summer, my wife pretended to have psychically  'channeled' my late grandmother.  I was hurt by this. It felt so disrespectful. When I said I was hurt, my wife turned the blame on me and told me I was cruel for not believing her.)

After my wife broke into the apartment and stole my dog in April, I packed up just what would fit in my car, left town, and drove across the country during a pandemic. I was concerned for my safety.

I hired a family lawyer who filed a petition for divorce and a motion to have my ESA returned to me. My lawyer believes we have a strong case based on the fact that this is my emotional support animal, and we can prove to the court that the dog belongs to me. Also, my former wife already has our other 2 animals.

We have no assets to speak of. The only issue to litigate over is my dog.

Does anyone have any advice for divorcing someone with BPD? Has anyone experienced anything similar? The sudden shift in my former wife from wanting an amicable divorce to breaking into my apartment and stealing my dog is jarring and hard to wrap my head around.

I struggle with deep feelings of shame and guilt. I lived with her BPD for so long, and was so isolated in the new city for the last year, that I began to believe what she was saying––– that all the issues in our relationship were my fault, that I was lucky she stayed with me, that I had so much work I had to do to fix the problems of our relationship, how I was an abuser, too controlling, too critical, etc.

I've been out of this relationship for 3 months and I already feel so much better. My insomnia is gone, I have self-esteem again, I'm productive again. I have an apartment and a job and a wide network of friends. I can't believe I used to live like that.

I'm looking for some community to feel less alone.

Thank you, everyone, for listening. Any advice would be appreciated in terms of how to divorce someone with BPD or heal in the wake of a BPD relationship.

Wishing you all healing.

[ForeverDad]

Welcome.
You will find a community, though we are anonymous and somewhat remote, that has helped many to regain their composure as they struggle to come to grips with all the complexities of life with a person with BPD (pwBPD).  We've been there, done that.

There is a wealth of experience available here, by reading past threads, by gaining education and skills, and by picking our collective brains for what strategy usually works and what usually doesn't work.

The good aspects to reduce the complications in the divorce are that there are no shared children, a relatively short marriage, minimal assets and hopefully minimal family debts.

It may take longer due to the distance apart.  Your lawyer can advise about that.

Yes, you want your ESA dog back.  Since she knows that she may try to use that against you in any settlement conferences.  Time will tell how that goes.

Very important, don't tell her you may have felt suicidal during your time with her.  That is categorized as TMI — too much information — in divorce you must be careful about what you share since you never can be sure what could be claimed against you.

Even if she knows, don't worry overmuch, just be careful that you explain it (following lawyer's advice on when and how) as situational feelings.

[Sluggo]

Shopgirl26...

that all the issues in our relationship were my fault, that I was lucky she stayed with me, that I had so much work I had to do to fix the problems of our relationship, how I was an abuser, too controlling, too critical, etc.

So sorry you have gone through what you have.  Welcome to the board. 

The Last therapist we went to my exbpd wife and I went 2 three hour sessions a week.  The first 4 weeks we spent time going through her past hurts with me and focused on what I did to contribute to our failed marriage.  I was teachable and did each thing that was asked of me.   My exbpd wife was in the best mood I had seen her in in a long time.  She told others that all the problems were mine and I almost believed it to . 

Then the therapist said after about a month...  ok we have spent time with Sluggo and his contribution and he has done extremely hard work, now it is time to start work on what you have contributed.  Exwife immediately got defensive and told her all problems were mine and within about 2 min she went into a full throttle rage.  The therapist kicked her out of the session.  It was the first time she understood what really was happening.  Therapist seemed frightened and gave me an  escape plan if that happened at home (it did quite often).  We went back next session and wife got kicked out 3 more times until wife accused her of stealing and filed a complaint to our insurance saying she was over billing them. She stopped going to sessions. 

I left about 3 months later. 

Hang in there.  Our kids were used as pawns in divorce. . It was awful .  I did not get 50/50 custody.  Once divorce was over 3 months later, she gave all parental rights and custody over to me.  Kids were just a tool as she knew they are so important to me. 

Sluggo

[shopgirl26]

Hi

Thanks so much for your kind words. It's so nice to know I'm not alone in this.

I sat up last night reading threads and sobbing. I'm so sorry for everything everyone here has gone through at the hands of their BPD exes, but I'm so glad we can talk to each other because feeling isolated in this experience is what hurts the most.

SLUGGO: I completely relate to your experience in therapy. My wife would agree to go, and would find and book the therapist, but the minute we got in the office, she would get angry and raise her voice at me and sling accusation after accusation at me until the therapist cut her off and said, "this isn't productive." Often the sessions were overtaken by her anger and there wasn't space for me to speak to my needs or feelings. Obviously, marriage counselling didn't work. We tried 3 different therapists. Sometimes my wife would be angry like this, and sometimes she would be sweet as pie, speaking in a gentle voice, and almost performing a perfect marriage for the therapist. This was just as discouraging for me, because a therapist can't help if you're not honest.

A few hours after she broke in and stole my ESA, she sent me a hateful email that pains me to even remember. It was a wall of words rehashing an argument we had 3 years ago (that we'd addressed in therapy countless times before.) She called me an abuser, said she never wanted to be friends, blamed me for her substance abuse issues ("you want me to stop smoking and be present, but I can't be present because then I'll have to face how angry I am at you") and she blamed me for her lack of progress with her own therapist, saying that she lied and hid things from her therapist because she knew if she told the therapist the truth, the therapist would tell her to leave me. Obviously, these were all my wife's choices. They weren't my fault, but I still carry guilt because I was told for so long that all the problems in the marriage were because of me.

Tell me if you relate to these lines. "I wouldn't get so angry if you didn't ____."
"If you didn't make me this mad, I wouldn't ____." "I only swore at you and called you ____ because of what you said to me." "What about that fight we had 2 years ago where you said ----?"

It was an endless circle.

UPDATE ON THE COURT CASE

While my lawyers filed with the court on an urgent basis, seeking a speedy hearing, (due to the medical piece and the harm caused to my mental health in losing my ESA) unfortunately, due to the backlog of cases due to covid, the court will not address my case on an urgent basis. The soonest they can address it is end of August. I'm trying to hang in there in the meantime, be patient, get regular therapy (2 sessions this week) and let things run their course.

My wife will be served at her work early next week. I am worried about her retaliating. She will receive the documents and be enraged, at work, in front of clients and her boss. I would have preferred to have her served at home but I don't have her current address.

I have blocked her on all social media, blocked her number, and rerouted her email to a specific folder. I'm still scared she will send me hate mail. The police told me that if she continues to  contact me after being told not to by police, that I have grounds for a harassment case. She has already emailed me once in May after being told not to by police. I don't want to go the route of the harassment case, especially because I left the city and she doesn't know where I am, but we all know BPD rage and how far they'll go when they feel they are losing.

FOREVER DAD: Thanks for your message. No, to your question, she does not know I was suicidal in the days after she broke in. In my court filings, I have doctor's notes saying that I am being treated for anxiety and depression, for which an ESA has been helpful and is recommended to continue.

Apparently, under Canadian family law, a judge will not look kindly on the fact that my wife broke in AFTER the date of separation. There is an expectation of privacy and respect following a separation, so I can only hope that she has dug herself into a hole with her actions and lost credibility in the eyes of the judge.

I also do not expect her to cooperate and respond within the deadline after being served. Does anyone have any tips on what to do if a BPD ex drags their feet in court proceedings? How wild should I be prepared for things to get?

I'll let you know how it goes.

[Ventak]

Shopgirl, so sorry you are going through this very painful time.  I guarantee it will get better over time as you recover.  So glad you are seeing your therapist twice a week!

There is a book called "Splitting" which is full of amazing advice on separation/divorce from a pwBPD.  It is written by one of the co-authors of the "Walking on Eggshells" series.  I highly recommend you read through at least the first 3-4 chapters.

I have seen situations like this on courtroom television here in the states, that do not work out well for the person who lost their dog in those situations.  Is your BPDex the type that would sell the dog just to hurt you?  Unfortunately the "law" and "justice" aren't always compatible...  I hope and pray this works in your favor.  My BPDw has an ESA, and I've seen up close just what a godsend they can be.

[shopgirl26]

Ventak: Thanks for your kind words. I just picked up a copy of Splitting today. I'm looking forward to reading it. I've been listening to a lot of Bill Eddy's interviews on how to divorce high conflict personalities.

My lawyers believe because there are 2 dogs, and 1 belonged to each of us, and because 1 is my ESA, I have a strong case. She already has the other dog and the cat. Also because of the way he was taken from me through intimidation after the date of separation. They believe this won't be looked on kindly by a family law judge.

My BPD ex has been making this a nightmare and has already established a pattern of disrespect for the legal system–– leaving angry voicemails on my lawyer's answering machine, sending them emails in which she threatened to toss sensitive financial documents onto the street "for all the world to see" my "social insurance number" and threatening to throw out a photo of my late grandfather. She let the date to respond to the settlement letter fly by, sending pissy emails to my lawyer saying she and her lawyer would respond soon. Then, she ended up representing herself.

It's going to be a long haul but I submitted a sworn affidavit with 12 pieces of supporting evidence -- notes from my doctor, therapist, text messages from after the split where my BPD ex said the dog could live with me, texts where I told her I was registering him as an ESA and she enthusiastically supported it.

I'm staying hopeful. I have to hope that all this bad behaviour will bite her on the ass. Once she disrespects a court order to disclose information, or loses credibility lying during cross examination by my lawyer, I think I might have a shot.

My BPD ex has always had a complex where she believes she can take better care of an animal than anyone on earth so that is what her snatching the dog back was about.

[Ventak]

Wishing you the best!  Please keep us updated, and lean on us when you need friends

Unfortunately my son (2.5) was throwing a tantrum when we said our nightly prayer, so you only got my daughter (also 2.5) and I.. hope it's enough.

[ForeverDad]

There's a saying I found here and I've repeated many times...

The person behaving poorly seldom faces consequences and the person behaving well seldom gets credit.

Many here were surprised that courts can ignore much of what we feel is compelling, even urgent, documentation.  Partly it's because courts assume divorcing couple are prone to bickering and expect the conflict will fade later on.  The problem may be that the court doesn't know which cases are intractable and stuck in dysfunctional conflict until much, much later.  Hopefully your ESA dog's plight will get the court's attention sooner.

[shopgirl26]

Thank you, Ventak and ForeverDad.

Update! I have a preliminary court hearing at the end of August. This isn't the full hearing over the dog, but an appointment with a judge to see what else we need before the actual hearing. I imagine my BPD ex will make it difficult and we'll have to get court orders to force her to comply.

Today has been really really hard. I feel so alone so I appreciate all of your kindness.

I feel like I'm falling apart. The further out I get from this relationship, the more f---d I realize it was, and the more PTSD I feel. I am going to need so much therapy.

I'm curious–– has anyone's ex with BPD lashed out after being served with papers? We haven't had contact since April. But because she's getting served at work, ideally Monday, I'm afraid that rage will kick in.

Any advice for what to do if it does?

If she refuses to disclose her income, my lawyer said we can go after the payroll from her work to prove how much she earns. She would hate that because work is so important to her. My lawyer said this *might* back her into a settlement if she wants to keep her work out of the messiness. But who knows?

It's just such a mindf---k when the aggressor is accusing you of being abusive. It's pur projection. She will see my serving her at work as some act of hostility and manipulation rather than a practical thing that needs doing for us to get divorced.

There is a paper trail of her abusing me since the separation. She even sent me a hateful email admitting to breaking in and stealing the dog, but it still feels like an uphill battle to prove it to a judge.

[Goosey]

So sorry you went through the wringer.
  I can relate to the fear for your safety. It’s so scary. I recall asking my business partner if I should just get the pets and my 20 year old daughter in the truck and flee to the west coast and he said absolutely rational just go. I recall going into the house to tell my daughter we were leaving the area and she just looked at me like I was nuts (which I was at the time). She said there was no where to hide from her we just have to stand our ground.
   My best advise is to realize your dealing with someone who is just raw emotion and in real pain. They seem to be unable to have any realization the pain and turmoil they are causing. It’s all about Their feelings. We are always to blame. No contact is the only way I got a grasp on reality and I stick with it to this day. I will respond measurably to emails but i gave up on verbal communication pretty much totally.
   I miss my wife (ex in a couple weeks) terribly sometimes. I can’t hate her. I feel awful for her. But I can’t fix her. I wish there was a magic pill. Just an awful mental condition.
    Take care. Be safe. It does get better.
  

[Goosey]

The first time I had papers served my wife went ballistic. She called my lawyer and demanded I withdraw them. She went to the county court house and demanded they cancel them. She blew me up so badly I panicked and had them withdrawn. My lawyer even understood my fear at that point.
   In the long run my wife demanded I restart the divorce six months later. But to this day I get told I am such a horrible person for leaving her in her condition. That guilts me so badly.
   But how can you support someone who is attacking you in all possible ways? 
    Don’t worry about your sanity. It’s natural to be rattled.

[shopgirl26]

Thanks Goosey.

I'm sorry to hear about your situation and what you went through with your ex wife.

I've gone no contact. It's the only thing to do. As far as I'm concerned, I will never speak to her again. She can go through my lawyers only.

I said to my therapist today that after 8 years of being told I was the problem, an abuser, being painted as this monster, I was brainwashed into believing it. What if I am and I don't know it? She used my abusive childhood against me all the time because she knew how I was so afraid and determined not to continue the cycle.

It's so good to know I'm not alone. It know it's all because of BPD. But after my wife was diagnosed, she said the doctors were full of it, and we never addressed the diagnosis again. For six years. In the meantime, she started blaming me for everything, and I started believing it all.

I think what screws me up is the number of people she's got believing this stuff. She talked 2 people into breaking in with her. They were my friends too. Her family believes this story she's telling them. That hurts too. I was so close with them.

It makes me so sad. She was my first relationship, my wife. I wanted to be friends with her so badly. Initially she wanted that too. The issues in our marriage wouldn't have affected me if we were just friends, but I agree, friendship with a BPD ex just isn't possible.

How long did it take you to stop believing the story you were told about being the sole problem in the relationship? I know it's a process. I guess before today, I didn't realize how deep my belief ran. When someone says they know you better than anyone, it makes it easy to believe the lovebombing, but just as easy to believe the devaluing too.

[Goosey]

   I occasionally wonder what I could have done to better help her. I didn’t understand what I (she) was dealing with and in hindsight my reactions to her rages and bizarre actions were not helpful. I feel guilt for that.
   As for regaining some self worth it’s been a long slow process.
 I manage to go through life without any big drama so that assured me I can’t possibly be the monster she made me out as. All the things that where always such a problem are gone. I paid of all the crazy debt I got left with. I pay the bills on time.  My daughter is back in college. 
   I think it’s gonna take a long time to feel free. But I did hear that song “free to do what I want any old time” and I kinda chuckled. I am free, free of the insanity of it.
    My hurdle now is to get my married friends to stop trying to get me A partner haha. I humorously decline but they have no idea how scarring  these relationships are. 
   I just went no contact and basically did nothing to react and out of the blue she proposed a fair distribution and voila the divorce should be final in a couple weeks.
  Think she just got bored with poking me because I just would react to it anymore.

[Goosey]

It gets easier!
It really does! 
Just know that!
Many of us have been there were the pain is torturous. I spent years in constant depression and practical incapacitated with sorrow and guilt. No idea how I got better but I guess it’s just the passing of time.
Hang in there. Give yourself a break. We are only human.

[shopgirl26]

Goosey, I'm happy to hear that you're in a place where you're feeling free. I hope to get there one day.

I have days when I'm in the park with friends or sitting at home writing and listening to music where I am just so happy to be by myself. Oh my God, the relief! There's no one here to fight with! I still can't get over the fact that when I come home, there's no one miserable and stoned and critical of me, telling me I'm the problem. I can't believe I get to enjoy time with my friends and stay as long as I want without someone texting me a million times insisting I come home, or being rude to my friends and pushing me out the door. Oh my God, I'm free!

I hope for the outcome you had in your divorce! Maybe the more months that pass, she will get bored and decide a $5,000 pay-to-play in legal bills, a mountain of paperwork, and having to finally file her taxes is too much trouble and she will settle out of court.

[Ventak]

I have found reading through other posts in these forums really helps me understand that it wasn't me.  Once you see that 20th post that you could have written verbatim.. once you see your pwBPD's patterns for the 100th time.. you realize that you are not the only person in the universe that suffered through this.. the self-doubt.. the angst at not being able to help a person you love so much..

I read something recently that may help.  They said essentially that sometime in the future you will have half a day where you don't think of your BPDw.  Then there will be some days you always do, but eventually there will be another half day.  Following that you will have two days in a row where there was that half day of complete peace...  Until eventually it turns into a full day.. then two full days in a row.. then a full week... etc...  Thinking of that progression in small steps instead of trying to envision complete peace all the time really struck home to me.

[shopgirl26]

UPDATE:

My BPD ex is being served today! (I posted that in another thread too but I wanted to update this board too.)

I got the email from my L this morning, requesting photos for the baliff to serve her.


She is being served at work. She will not like this. Work is very important to her. But I didn't have her home address.


I am relieved things are finally moving but I am stressed. I have no idea what she will do. Depends what mood she's in today. She might dodge being served, freak out and send me hateful emails, hire an attorney, or do nothing at all and not take it seriously. Or she might be calm and respond in a professional way (least likely but who knows?)

I have called around to a few more attorneys and they all seem confident I have a strong enough case to get the dog back. So we will see.

Keep me in your thoughts today.

[Ventak]

Praying for you and your furbaby...  Let us know how it goes, we are here for you.

[shopgirl26]

Thank you, Ventak. I am so glad I found this group. I so appreciate the support.

The serving has been bumped to Monday. It better happen then. It's been a month already. I'm losing my mind.

[Ventak]

The serving has been bumped to Monday. It better happen then. It's been a month already. I'm losing my mind.

That has to be beyond frustrating!  Try to take care of yourself this weekend...

[shopgirl26]

Hi Ventak,

Thanks. I took good care of myself this weekend. I slept and ate well and focussed on letting go of the urge to manage my ex's emotions. I am responsible for my feelings and reactions. She is responsible for hers.

I'm still struggling with feeling guilty for having her served at work, but I remind myself to work on letting go of FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) and that I didn't have a choice. We are here because of my BPD ex's unilateral choices and behaviour.

No news from L yet today.

[Ventak]

Hi Ventak,

Thanks. I took good care of myself this weekend. I slept and ate well and focussed on letting go of the urge to manage my ex's emotions. I am responsible for my feelings and reactions. She is responsible for hers.

I'm still struggling with feeling guilty for having her served at work, but I remind myself to work on letting go of FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) and that I didn't have a choice. We are here because of my BPD ex's unilateral choices and behaviour.

No news from L yet today.

Keeping fingers crossed!  Thanks for the update.

Sounds like you are getting into a much better place, I admire the work you have done so far.

[shopgirl26]

SHE HAS BEEN SERVED!

I'm not sure if it happened today or yesterday, but just got the email from my lawyer. Things are rolling. Fingers crossed!

[Ventak]

Congratulations!  Praying for you and your pup.

[shopgirl26]

She was served at her home on Monday, July 12th. Not sure how the court got her address, but I'll take it.

I've been struggling to free myself from this narrative of hers that I'm the abuser. I know she sees being served and going for the return of the dog as abusive. I know it's not. I know I have a right to advocate for my own needs, but I subscribed to this narrative, this false reality, for so many years, it's going to take me a while to shake off.

Bracing myself for all kinds of wild behaviour and character assasination as this gets going.

[Goosey]

Prepare for the worst. Hope for the best.
I know this is hard. We all do.

[jaded7]

You are so lucky to have found this community. I found it over a year ago now, after a horrific breakup, massive confusion, gaslighting and yelling...you know the routine by now after reading all of those threads.

You seem like a very thoughtful and considerate person, as a stranger reading from the outside. In fact, you remind me of myself as I first came to these boards wondering what the heck was going on. I too was blamed for all the 'things', I too was accused of things I didn't do, etc.

Just want to to say welcome, and I hope you find some healing. I still come here when I'm feeling bad- which unfortunately still continues due to the confusion resulting from the accusations and bizarre lying. My therapist calls in introjection- I started to believe the things she told me about myself, very bad things.

Tell me if you relate to these lines. "I wouldn't get so angry if you didn't ____."
"If you didn't make me this mad, I wouldn't ____." "I only swore at you and called you ____ because of what you said to me." "What about that fight we had 2 years ago where you said ----?"

I SO relate to these lines. How about I add one: "I only get so angry at you because I love you so much!"

And the bringing up things from the past, that we had already discussed and I had corrected the attempted gaslighting 4 times already? I actually said- No, that is NOT what happened. I've explained this to you, I called you at 11:30am that day, not the 5:00pm you keep saying on the day before. Why do you keep bringing this up over and over? And why do you keep changing the facts? I know FOR CERTAIN what time I called you and on what day.

Her: "How do you KNOW?" Angry, accusatory.

Me: I have a phone? And it has records of calls? So I looked?

She doesn't acknowledge what I said, doesn't apologize or acknowledge that she has been wrong for months on this and keeps repeating the gaslighting even after I corrected her...simply moves on to the next attack.

[jaded7]

I said to my therapist today that after 8 years of being told I was the problem, an abuser, being painted as this monster, I was brainwashed into believing it. What if I am and I don't know it? She used my abusive childhood against me all the time because she knew how I was so afraid and determined not to continue the cycle.

In the meantime, she started blaming me for everything, and I started believing it all.

How long did it take you to stop believing the story you were told about being the sole problem in the relationship? I know it's a process. I guess before today, I didn't realize how deep my belief ran. When someone says they know you better than anyone, it makes it easy to believe the lovebombing, but just as easy to believe the devaluing too.

Just to add...I too was abused as a child, and she used that against me too. During one extended period she was withholding sex- I mean, it stopped suddenly, she ignored texts to come over, she pretended I didn't ask her for us to be together physically- until one night I asked her kindly and lovingly after she said she was going home after we watched a movie (ignoring a commitment to spend the weekend at my place- she had harassed me for months calling me a child for not keeping a Google calendar, told me I had "ruined" the entire previous summer before by forgetting/missing events we had planned (simply not true), so to make her happy I made, with her, a calendar for the summer; this was a weekend at my place we'd both agreed upon as we sat together in a coffee shop a couple months before- she was a STICKLER for the calendar and lived by it)...

She exploded at me and told me that my feelings of hurt and confusion were due to my sexual abuse.

Two months later, still no physical relationship and I asked her again what's going on and EXPLOSION, in bed. She then admits that she was intentionally withholding sex for months because she "was reevaluating the relationship", while of course during that time asking me to do all kinds of things for her, listen to her complain about her ex-husband daily, keep her dog for 3 weeks while she travelled and buy it expensive food, pay for all lunches/dinners/coffees. And during her trip she forgot my birthday.

Later I pointed out to her that she yelled at me for 'forgetting' things the previous summer that we had 'planned' (not true), then she herself doesn't keep the commitments she made when I put the calendar together with her! She literally cancelled the first two things at the last second, then 'forgot'/'thought it was only for the day'/'didn't see it' for the weekend we'd planned at my place. This, from the person who yelled at me for forgetting and called me a child for not having a Google calendar. The person who lived by her Google calendar, hour to hour, day to day.

Several other times, when I asked her about her confusing behavior in other matters, she told me I was mentally ill and needed help.

Regarding the believing what she told you. I get it. See my previous comment about introjection. I am having a most difficult time getting those words out of my head, and not believing what she told me I was. Literally no one else in my life, ever, told me those things. In fact, just the opposite. But I choose to believe her for some reason.

[shopgirl26]

Update:

Well, the first deadline has flown by. My BPD ex had until July 19th to provide her financial information to the court (income, savings/debts, last 3 years of taxes.)
And...nothing.

Apparently she thinks she is above the law and these deadlines mean nothing. At least she's consistent? haha

The next deadline for her to submit any documentation/evidence to support her case is August 3rd. Expecting this deadline to fly by also.

To think I wasted months expecting a volatile to her being served. When it actually happened, I wouldn't be surprised if she stuffed the Notice to Appear in the back of a drawer.

What happens now? If August 3rd flies by unacknowledged, I guess my lawyers file a motion to compel?

Any chance her contempt for the court works in my favour? Hoping these kinds of reindeer games make the judge angry, since he/she will not want to waste any additional time on this as there are more important child custody cases to get to.

Anyone have experience with a BPD ex who ignored their Notice to Appear and all legal deadlines? Any advice?

[ForeverDad]

So what happens if she doesn't defend her case?
(1) Court declares you two divorced.  Relatively brief marriage officially 2 years, does palimony apply?  Are you okay with no support or financial split?
(2) Court orders you to take possession of your dog.  With that order in hand the local constabulary, which knows her latest residence, will cooperate with its return.

[shopgirl26]

Hi ForeverDad,

Thanks for this!

My lawyer said a lot hinges on the judge we get. Some judges, she said, may extend the deadlines once or twice for my BPD ex. Others will be sticklers. (I'm hoping I get a stickler.) She did say that self-reps are held to the same standard as people with legal representation, so my ex won't get any special treatment for her ignorance of the law.

My ex works but I have the majority of the savings, so I'm fine to give up spousal support in exchange for keeping my savings. That's fine with me.

This hearing on August 26th is solely about the dog. From there, we would have to mediate over the remaining assets, says my lawyer. Both parties have to agree to go into mediation, though, so I bet you any money my ex will refuse. My lawyer said if this happens, if she refuses to negotiate, we would have to go in front of a judge again. If neither of us can afford that, I'd have to withdraw my petition for divorce. In Canada, you don't have to get divorced, you can stay legally separated forever. I'm fine with that too. Most likely it will be my ex who wants to remarry (I'm done with marriage forever) so she would have to come to me for a divorce in a few years' time.

[Goosey]

She will be found to be in “default”.
   Most states are “no fault” , “equitable distribution” so your lawyer will guide you through.
  And it is correct that the Judge has to be fair but in my case (which was a default with last moment signed MSA) I could sense he wasn’t please about her default. Not that it mattered much. Actually was a pleasant shock she wasn’t on the 15 minute zoom call that ends it.
Better for you ultimately if only less drama. More paperwork-less drama haha. 

[Goosey]

Interesting about mediation.  Like I said my ex never never responded to any documented outreach. So it went to default. Like she wasn’t there.
I assume you can compel someone in a civil matter.
  It was nothing but crickets from her on the legal side of the matter.

[shopgirl26]

Hi Goosey,

Wow, that's so interesting to know that your ex just went silent! I guess with a BPD it's all about power and control. In their mind, stonewalling and silence is a form of power and control. It's amazing to me how much bad behaviour they can justify, and how they consider themselves the sole exception to every rule and, in this case, law.

It does say in the paperwork she received that if she doesn't show or submit her stuff on time, a judgment will be made against her. And she's a fighter, so you'd think she'd want to prevent that at all costs. But who knows! Maybe she didn't even read that far. I did submit over 90 pages of evidence to the courts...

[Goosey]

Oh my ex is a smart cookie. And a fighter.
So in these initial days of retrospect the actual legal proceedings and settlement where anti climatic, even when compared to most divorces I assume. 
  But she never responded to any court required notifications at all. Default. Mind you that saved her any expense and maybe she knew the law required a equitable division so why bother, let me pay for it all. (See, she is smart haha)
    I had a brief email exchange when she finally found out we were divorced. Her words still cut me. She has a wonderful way of making me feel like it is all my doing.
   Ugh. But today is better.
   Empathy sucks haha.

 

[Goosey]

For it to go into “default” required several certified notifications with weeks of time for a response. We didn’t have anything to divide except the home value which again (amazingly) she and I made a fair agreement with a one line email exchange. . (Any agreement is shocking! That hadn’t happened in years!).
   She’s moved on obviously. And I’m jealous of that. Not of the relationship, just the ability to move on.
 Nights and morning, if we could just skip them for a while haha.

[Goosey]

It’s interesting you surmise it may be about power and control. 
   
  I filed for divorce initially over two years ago after she left for over several months. It was the really chaotic insane times. Honestly I don’t even remember why I filed…. Maybe the financial repercussions and exposure, I don’t know.
   She went ballistic so intensely and demanded  the complaint be taken back. And I did! I just let it expire for lack of procedure (prosecution).
   She asked me for a divorce several months later so I paid for it all.  Then she just ignored it all till like d-day. Then got a fair settlement.
   Played again I was.  That’s ok it’s the last time.

[shopgirl26]

It’s interesting you surmise it may be about power and control. 
   
  I filed for divorce initially over two years ago after she left for over several months. It was the really chaotic insane times. Honestly I don’t even remember why I filed…. Maybe the financial repercussions and exposure, I don’t know.
   She went ballistic so intensely and demanded  the complaint be taken back. And I did! I just let it expire for lack of procedure (prosecution).
   She asked me for a divorce several months later so I paid for it all.  Then she just ignored it all till like d-day. Then got a fair settlement.
   Played again I was.  That’s ok it’s the last time.

Thanks so much for sharing your experience with me. I'm sorry to hear you were put through the wringer, but I am glad that you are out now. I know, mornings and evenings are difficult. I'm going through the grieving process right now because I liked being married. I liked making future plans with someone. I just chose the wrong person.

My ex sees me as an abuser and blames me, not just for the problems in our marriage, but for all of her problems personally. I have to distance myself from that and remember that she was diagnosed with BPD, sought zero treatment, and exacerbated the issue with substance abuse. Her word is not the absolute truth. Neither is your ex's.

What I'm realizing in speaking with people such as yourself, is that this is a community of sensitive and empathetic people. The one thing we share is that our BPD exes exploited that empathy. Even after the relationship has ended, we are looking back over our history and looking for ways to grow as people so these same patterns don't manifest again. The BPD exes are still sitting firm in their anger and blame. It's a bit like drinking poison hoping for the other person to die, but that is their journey. There's a reason none of us could live in that space of total negativity with them anymore.

Good for you for being strong and getting through it. Thanks again for explaining the process to me.

In speaking to people like yourself, I feel like I'm meeting people who escaped a cult. Six months ago, I felt totally alone in my experience and cut off from the world. No one knows of her diagnosis but me. I thought I had to accept the abuse because of what a bad person I was. That's what my ex would do –– lash out, call me an abuser, and say I deserved the abuse because I was an abuser and abused her ten times worse.

I guess I'm worried my ex will turn on the bubbly charm with a judge, and the judge will be swayed by this performance. But based on her history of ignoring and dismissing court notifications, maybe she won't even show.

[Goosey]

Thank you for sharing your “above post”.
  Your observations are spot on and your words show that you are aware of the situation and can process it logically.
  It’s helpful to me, and others I am sure.  (I’m still jumbled most times). 
   As I halting navigated through divorce it became clear that there wouldn’t be a “perry mason” scene involved. I wrote long descriptions of the insanity, I wrote my faults and weaknesses.
   At two interviews for hiring an attorney prior to proceeding they just told me to put those notes away. That unless I wanted to spend tens of thousands of dollars to air them out it didn’t matter. They said it’s only about a fair settlement. It took some time to realize that’s how courts handled what must be the most volatile type of rulings processed.
   Your ex may not respond till the last moment also. Maybe have a settlement proposal drafted for that possibility. You’ll need it either way. 
   In my case I never was approached about mediation. And I assume that it takes two parties to negotiate so that Avenue is void when the other party is not gonna show.
    In the long run it certainly doesn’t hurt your case when the other party ignores official court requests.

   
   
   

[Sluggo]

What I'm realizing in speaking with people such as yourself, is that this is a community of sensitive and empathetic people. The one thing we share is that our BPD exes exploited that empathy. Even after the relationship has ended, we are looking back over our history and looking for ways to grow as people so these same patterns don't manifest again

Shopgirl,

I whole heartily agree... Great group of people on this site. Glad you're one of the great people also sharing and supporting. 

Sluggo

[shopgirl26]

Thank you for sharing your “above post”.
  Your observations are spot on and your words show that you are aware of the situation and can process it logically.
  It’s helpful to me, and others I am sure.  (I’m still jumbled most times). 
   As I halting navigated through divorce it became clear that there wouldn’t be a “perry mason” scene involved. I wrote long descriptions of the insanity, I wrote my faults and weaknesses.
   At two interviews for hiring an attorney prior to proceeding they just told me to put those notes away. That unless I wanted to spend tens of thousands of dollars to air them out it didn’t matter. They said it’s only about a fair settlement. It took some time to realize that’s how courts handled what must be the most volatile type of rulings processed.
   Your ex may not respond till the last moment also. Maybe have a settlement proposal drafted for that possibility. You’ll need it either way. 
   In my case I never was approached about mediation. And I assume that it takes two parties to negotiate so that Avenue is void when the other party is not gonna show.
    In the long run it certainly doesn’t hurt your case when the other party ignores official court requests.

   
   
   

Hi Goosey,

You hit the nail on the head when you said not to expect a "Perry Mason scene." I'm trying to manage my own expectations and not expect justice, but rather a fair settlement.

I'm sorry that your notes couldn't be included in your case. It's so tough to realize that the years of abuse can't be counted when navigating divorce. In my mind, they should be. But the law won't intervene and decide who is in the right and who is in the wrong.

Re the settlement proposal, is this different from a settlement letter? I already tried that, and my ex balked at it.

I know if my ex does respond at all, she will wave around the sales receipt for the dog. She still thinks this is the trump card. My lawyers say it's not because whatever is bought for the family is matrimonial property.

What has brought me comfort lately is my friend's advice to me: "Anything your ex does from now on has to be a valid legal argument." Good luck to her with that. She is 100% brute force, threats, insults, and emotions. None of that works in a court room.

[shopgirl26]

Update: Well, she responded. And the response makes little sense, just as I thought it would.

This morning my BPD ex sent my lawyers a one page response. In it, she says she "contests everything"...(okay?) and under relief sought she put "divorce." She told my lawyer that she is currently self represented but will be getting a lawyer. She did say that once already though, and no lawyer every materialized.

This response has sent me into a tailspin. I don't know why. I guess I was expecting her to ignore the summons and let the deadline fly by. Now it looks like she's bracing for a fight.

But I don't know how she can "contest everything." How do you contest screenshots of text messages you were a part of? How do you contest a police report of something that happened? How do you contest my multiple doctor's notes?

I can't decide which is worse, her self representing and dragging us through a wild west approach to the law, or her hiring an attorney who will legitimize her chaos and emotional outbursts.

[Notwendy]

I may be cynical here, but we took plenty of vacations in very nice places to appease BPD mom.

But the drama and the conflicts between my parents didn't change because of them. And it wasn't exactly quality time with Dad either as it revolved around mom.

You can still have a vacation later, with just you and the boys if you wish.

Saying you are moving out and taking a vacation together gives a mixed message. It's not a clear boundary with her.  And it may be more confusing for you if she's on her best behavior during that time.

[Goosey]

Don’t tailspin.
  You got this.
You actually kinda predicted the total rejection of the complaint.
  The procedure will go on anyhow.
   
  I know this is impossible to do, but just try to not take it personally. This is the disorder we have dealt with. 
   Do not tailspin.  You’ll be ok.

 

[Goosey]

My lawyer would listen to me compassionately (while the ticker was ticking of course).  I recall one conversation when I was in a tailspin with terror for her well-being. He stated calmly the options to have legal intervention, then he said he was putting on his “lawyer” hat and told me he was looking out for me. (You cry when you hear that at those moments.) and that as long as I wanted this cycle to end he would guide me through.
  You should feel that your lawyer is your best friend.
(At 400 an hour haha.).
  Let them insulate you from the raw process by having the pre determined plan. This ain’t rocket science to them.
 
  I get the tailspin. We have all experienced it.
  Stay ok, you can do this.
  You can.
  You KNOW you can! 
   
 

[ForeverDad]

Domestic (family) court is there for a reason.  It is there to guide the unwinding of a marriage.  And it will do it despite whatever sabotaging either spouse attempts, even when it may take longer.

On this board over the years there have been many accounts of high conflict.  When there is extended conflict it typically requires ending the relationship, in other words, a divorce.  I don't know of any case where a court told a member they couldn't divorce.  Not one.

So as long as either of you wants a divorce, it will definitely happen.  Well, eventually.

[shopgirl26]

Update: she got a lawyer. And he's one of the top attorneys in the city and a senior partner.

I also have a senior attorney.

I'm feeling a bit defeated that I've lost the advantage I had of looking like the organized, responsible adult. She will have to stick to deadlines now and show respect for the court. And this attorney will lend her tantrums and bad behaviour legitimacy.

Before I was going to be cross examined by my BPD ex which would have been a cake walk. Now I'm going to be cross examined by a senior attorney. I also stand to lose half my savings because she was none, even though she's working full time and making bank and I'm a student.

[kells76]

Ugh, frustrating. We can work with it, though.

Has your L worked with her L before, or does your L have any feedback about/"inside scoop" on her L? Sometimes getting that info can help you strategize. I.e., if her L puts up with, um, "spicy" client behavior, but only up to a point, that's good to know where that point is.

I wonder if reframing "losing the advantage" would give another perspective on things.

What if instead, it's really you gaining more walls around her? Now, as you said... she "has to" stick to deadlines. She "has to" be respectful in in-person courtroom situations. Aaannnddd... she's gonna hate it. Was she ever able to stick with a change for the positive for very long? She may be able to "hold it together" for a while. Perhaps enjoy that while it lasts. It's a win for you to not have to deal with her acting out. And when she finally loses it, well, in a sense, that's also a win for you.

I do get it, though -- maybe the frustration of "why can't you people see ALL the dysfunction that I swear to you I had to put up with for years? I just want you to see what she's really like"?

Now I'm going to be cross examined by a senior attorney.

Stressful. Will a deposition be first? Consider that every "move" she and her team want to put you through, you're well within your rights to have happen to her. If you get cross-examined, then she will be, too, right? If you get deposed, then she'll get deposed, too, right?

The difference, at least with getting deposed, is you have the ability to not over-answer, to not JADE, to not incriminate yourself.

So, consider the "normal" question of "do you know what time it is?"

A "normal" answer is "Oh, yeah, let me get my watch, ok, let's see, I think it's 9:45, wait, maybe 9:50"

A "deposition answer is: "Yes."

See the difference?

We can help you prep here, and you WILL make it through.

 

kells76

[shopgirl26]

Hi Kells76,

Thanks so much for reframing this for me and offering me a new perspective.

I don't believe there will be a deposition first. I think it's our hearing over the dog with the cross examination of both of us in front of a judge. I know everything I've submitted is truthful and accurate. I guess, even though she has a lawyer, that doesn't mean she won't lie (and she might, because to her, feelings are facts.)

She has this whole story about how I financially, emotionally and physically abused her for years so she'll probably run with that. I told my lawyers that months ago, and they didn't seem concerned. They said abuse is irrelevant to a property case, which this is. A judge isn't going to want to listen to who did what to who.

She has 11 business days until August 19th when her lawyer sends us their response. She has to send her lawyer all he needs in advance of that date so he can put it together. It took my team three months, so it's gonna be a hustle. She doesn't have a ton of time to meet with him before the hearing (he has other clients) and I'm sure he's not going to want to hustle because she's disorganized and just hired him now.

That said, I am so worried that I'm going to be on the stand defending myself against allegations of abuse. Although, if it comes to that, there is a police report following the incident when she broke in, then I hired an attorney, had a police officer tell her not to contact me, and I left town. I never contacted her again so she can't say I harassed or stalked her. On paper, she is the aggressor, not me. She then defied the warning from police and sent me an angry email in May, which we've submitted to the court.

Her mother is bankrolling this attorney. Her mother is a malignant narcissist, so I'm sure they are bonding over their shared hatred of me. That said, I don't have a lot of money for her to come for, so is her mother going to want to spend between 10 and 18k because my BPD ex is angry? I don't know.

If my ex refuses to go into mediation and insists on having her day in court, it will be another retainer of 5,000 plus another 6,000 for each additional day in court. Is it worth it at this point?

[kells76]

OK, so if I'm tracking with you, this is a very "boilerplate" kind of hearing? I.e., there is a specific "format" for your hearing, and it doesn't deviate from that?

While we got close to court (had a court date), we never went, so I don't have the deep experience that many other members do. There was a "discovery" phase though, and my understanding is that answers to the "discovery" phase questions would be part of the deposition content.

Is there a list of cross-examination questions that is set beforehand? Is there a procedure for getting the questions ahead of time? OF course, like you mentioned, you can kiiinnnndddaa assume you know what she wants her L to "ask" you about.

That said, I am so worried that I'm going to be on the stand defending myself against allegations of abuse.

Understandable. I get it -- the thing with pwBPD is the emotional believability. If you haven't had lots of up-close experience with them, they can come across as emotionally convincing.

This is where I'd lean hard on your L about exact steps to take if you find yourself on the stand. How much can you just end questions with "No" or "That did not happen" or "Again I refer to the police report, and that's all there is to say about that". Ask how you can turn the loaded and leading questions around to point to what she actually did. Sounds like you have good L's. They'll know what to do. You're the expert on how your ex behaves. Keep giving them that info, and let them be the experts on how to make it through cross-examination when that's who you're up against. And again, see what they know about your ex's L -- what to keep an eye out for.

More specifically, I've read from some members on this board that we often have such a sense of obligation... we HAVE to answer the question, and we HAVE to answer it now. Consider, if it comes to that, that when you're up there on the stand... you don't have to answer everything right away. Take a second, take a deep breath, and look at your team. They'll certainly object whenever and however they can, if it's an unfair question. Remember that No is an answer.

Fighting a battle of emotional convincing-ness or emotional credibility against a pwBPD is a losing proposition. But like you said, this situation is ONLY about one thing (the "property"), not about how much she truly feels something. And that's her Achilles heel -- when it comes to backing up how much she feels like the dog is hers, and you're abusive, and you're a demon, and she saved the dog from you, and blah blah blah, she won't have anything concrete.

It's just the matter of you making it through her show.

Back to the whole mediation/$$$ question...

Run this past your L's -- so, basically, you have all the documentation that the dog is yours, right? So her trying to keep it, and preventing you from having it, and not giving it back... it's all frivolous? Consider having some clause in closing documents or settlement or hearing wrap-up that if she loses, she pays ALL your fees. I mean... it's kind of a double bind for her, right? If she's "so obviously right", then she has nothing to lose.

Hope these jumbled thoughts help...

kells76

[shopgirl26]

Hi Kells76,

You're right this is a boilerplate hearing with a specific format. From what I understand from my lawyers, we present what we have, they present what they have, my ex gets cross examined by my L, I get cross examined by hers. I don't believe the questions are submitted ahead of time.

The emotional believability is the thing. You hit the nail on the head. I'm sure this lawyer took the case because she's presenting herself as Judy Garland battling the wicked witch to keep her dog (when she has another one and a cat and all the furniture and the joint account.) But in her mind, I got everything because I kept my savings and got the car that my dead grandma left to me in her will. But the 2 dogs were marital property. She still doesn't seem to get that part.

Anyway, back to the dog--- unfortunately, she won't be able to come at this with any crazy accusations because her lawyer will tell her she needs to back them up. She'll allege I'm an unfit parent, that I let him pee on the floor a few times, but that doesn't rise to the level of animal abuse. Again, a dog is property in the eyes of the law. Anyway, I don't know how she would backpeddle on the texts she sent me where she encouraged me to register him as an ESA. They exist and I've submitted them to the court. "I changed my mind because I was mad" isn't a thing, lawyer or not.

In Canada, you can't get the other side to pay your full legal bills. You can get a percentage. Originally we were optimistic because the more disrespect for the court the other side shows, the more they waste the court's time, the higher a percentage you can ask for. But that may not happen now. Now it looks like there will be someone in her corner fighting for half of the savings I need to live on and in the end, I may not end up recouping any of my legal fees.

Yiiiikes.

[kells76]

OK, all good info to have.

Ugh about the legal bills. Am I understanding correctly that now that she has a L, that decreases the % that you'll likely be able to make her pay? Is the connection that because she has a L, she may be less disrespectful in court, ergo, has to pay a smaller %? Or is there another connection I'm missing?

One more thought struck me --

As we're both well aware      pwBPD are often a lot of talk, and little to no follow through. Before I knew much about BPD, I always assumed that the kids' mom meant what she said, and I would base decisions off of that -- after all, who doesn't mean what they say, especially when it's so intense?

But now I know that pwBPD (of a certain variety; i.e. not all pwBPD but sounds like your ex and the kids' mom are similar) are generally a lot of blustery talk and no concrete followthrough.

So -- don't rule out that for all her bravado and "being convinced" of winning at the hearing --

she might settle on the courthouse steps right before the hearing, so have something ready for her to sign.

Prep documents ahead of time (with your L's) so that in the not-impossible scenario that right before entering the courtroom, she's like "OK you can have the dog", you can be like "Great, I agree, sign here".

[Ventak]

In court, especially over property rights, "abuse" only counts if it is physical abuse or specific threats of physical abuse.  One can generally be a mean-spirited a** and the courts really don't care.  They only care about a "fair" distribution of assets.  This is where her taxes and business ownership will hurt her.  Her getting an attorney should be very useful for you here.  No good attorney is going to let her ramble on about what a bad person you are, as it is completely irrelevant to your case.  No good attorney will go after your savings if their client can't prove their income and assets, they would instead do anything to get you to settle without making money an issue.  They will likely show the receipts and any other evidence they may have that leans things in your exes direction and call it a day.

That's my experience, anyway...

[ThanksForPlaying]

It's good that you're getting prepared for all possible scenarios.  My experience in court has generally been that it's much less dramatic than anticipated.  10+ years ago, by uBPDexW didn't even show up for the final divorce hearing, and I was left thinking "that's it?"

As others have noted here, you may be surprised at how little you actually get to say in front of the court.  You may even feel like you didn't get a chance to tell your side of the story.  In your case, the court is looking at very specific property issues, and might even have a full decision written up before the hearing based on what has been submitted.  Like, you might both get cross-examined, and the judge will pull out an already prepared ruling, seemingly not even taking into account what you said. This is sometimes because they already know the ruling, they are just looking for anything that dramatically changes it.  Just stay calm, be respectful, and let BPD do the work. Courts have a lot of experience with this stuff and often have seen it all before, depending on the judge.  Good luck.

[ForeverDad]

The prior posts are spot-on.

You may get a settlement offer just before the hearing.  Be prepared also with terms that encourage compliance.  Maybe you'll get a bonus and be able to wrap in terms for the divorce too.  Wouldn't that be a happy surprise?  It would be interesting to be a fly on the wall as the lawyers exchange offers, perhaps even beforehand.

Courts may listen to the complaints but they've heard it all before.  They'd rather the most minimal intervention.  For you it's your life and oh so personal but for them, the judge, the lawyers and staff, it's another day at work.

Yes, it's even probable that the court will have reviewed your motions and issue a decision then.  Though you never know for sure how much was prepared in advance.  In my case, in my early days of separation my then-spouse was charged with Threat of DV.  After a few continuances we had a trial at the end of the day after all the other cases were handled.  I had a recording of the incident and she admitted she said what they heard.  Then... judge promptly recited a spiel where he ruled she was Not Guilty.  He even cited case law from a nearby jurisdiction that he claimed justified that ruling.  (The ADA afterward told me he disagreed, the ruling was a stretch.)  I have since concluded the judge may have (1) given her a break since it was her first time in a court's scrutiny or (2) women and mothers get a break.

[shopgirl26]

In court, especially over property rights, "abuse" only counts if it is physical abuse or specific threats of physical abuse.  One can generally be a mean-spirited a** and the courts really don't care.  They only care about a "fair" distribution of assets.  This is where her taxes and business ownership will hurt her.  Her getting an attorney should be very useful for you here.  No good attorney is going to let her ramble on about what a bad person you are, as it is completely irrelevant to your case.  No good attorney will go after your savings if their client can't prove their income and assets, they would instead do anything to get you to settle without making money an issue.  They will likely show the receipts and any other evidence they may have that leans things in your exes direction and call it a day.

That's my experience, anyway...

Hey Ventak,

Thanks for your comment and support. I know I've been a mess all over these boards in the last few months.

If my BPD ex retained her lawyer day before yesterday, it's likely that's all they've done-- the initial consult, signed the contract and paid the retainer. So she hasn't even been given her to-do list yet. When she finds out she has to file 3 years of taxes, document all her assets and debts, dig up documentation to support her affadavit, file an affadavit and have her lawyer swear it, file a statement of property and a statement of income...she will become overwhelmed. This is a person who, when I would do our taxes each year, would throw her hands up and say "it's too hard, I'll do it later!"

The to-do list was overwhelming for me and I had months to complete it. She has roughly 10 business days. I'm assuming her lawyer would need about a week to take everything she submits and put together a package for the court by August 19th.

I'm hoping she decides to settle. I'm prepared to even offer her money again. While she doesn't deserve it because she's working full time, I have an interview Monday for my dream job. I'm starting to see paying her off as "exit fees"- money I would gladly pay for my freedom and peace of mind.

[kells76]

. I'm prepared to even offer her money again. While she doesn't deserve it because she's working full time, I have an interview Monday for my dream job. I'm starting to see paying her off as "exit fees"- money I would gladly pay for my freedom and peace of mind.

That can be a helpful mindset. No, it's not fair, and it's not because she deserves the money. It's you "taking the steering wheel" and deciding on what your values are, what you want in your life going forward, and what you're willing to do to make that happen.

Negotiating tip -- when you do make a $$$ offer, lowball it. Make it LESS than you're actually willing to give. Let's say she rejects that... then you can "grudgingly" offer a little more (perhaps, again, not even your max).

What this does is makes her feel like she's "winning". Because pwBPD often see EVERY interaction as a competition of "who's on top and who's below, who's the winner and who's the loser" (I'm sure you've been through that before  ), finding ways for us to get what we need while the pwBPD "feels like the winner" is how we get stuff done.

So, lowball her, with "hints" that you're "giving in" to her and "inching up". I suspect that if she feels like she "wrung it out of you" or "made you give more" that she might be more inclined to take it.

That being said, every pwBPD is unique, so if this doesn't fit her mentality, don't feel obligated to try it.

Food for thought... and hang in there... it WILL finish, it won't go on forever.

kells76

[shopgirl26]

Hi Kells76,

Good advice! Thank you. I've already offered her 3,000 for the dog and she refused but I'm prepared to go up to 6 just to get away from her. So I'll offer 4 and go up from there so she can feel she's winning.

The malignant narcissist mother in law is now steering my ex's ship. The mother has her own unresolved divorce issues (because she "didn't need" therapy) so now it's the wrath of the family I'm facing. I think you're right. Allowing my ex to feel she's fleecing me and punishing me may work. Having said that though, she knows the way to punish me is to refuse to return the dog, so even if I had a million, dimes to doughnuts she wouldn't take it, even though that would benefit her.

She will always cut off her nose to spite my face.

[shopgirl26]

Okay so I'm considering having my lawyer approach her lawyer and offer her $4,000 for the return of the dog and signing of papers to be done with all of this and not go to trial.

What do we think?

She may be so stressed out with the amount of work she has to do before August 19th that the offer may turn her head. On the other hand, if she refuses it, we can say to the judge that we've tried twice now and she refuses for the sake of refusing. It makes her look unreasonable.

I know that if I go that route, she wouldn't be on the hook for costs, so I wouldn't be able to recoup my legal fees, but at least I'd be free of her and this would be over.

[kells76]

Would you still be required to participate in mediation if you went that route?

Not sure if it's this way for your hearing, but for some family law processes, parents are required to do mediation before moving forward. So you couldn't just be like "we discussed some stuff over email but she didn't agree, so that counts as mediation so we don't have to do it now before trial".

I.e., if you did this $4K offer "offline", and she refused, would that undermine your strategy if you then had to do mediation before the hearing?

Probably questions for your L...

[shopgirl26]

Hi Kells76,

I reached out to my lawyer to ask him what he thinks.

What I envision is another version of a settlement letter. "This is our offer, sign here and this all goes away. You'll be off the hook for spousal support, there will be no risk of you having to cover my legal fees, and we can get divorced."

If she signs it, great.

If she doesn't sign it, I think this will bolster our case to the judge that we are reasonable and more than fair, and we are only wasting the judge's time with a hearing because she continues to refuse our generous offers out of spite.

The key I think is to strike when she's at peak level stressed. When she's buried in taxes and documents and to do lists from her lawyer in advance of the hearing.

It will suck to be 10k in the hole for this divorce but if it ends this and gets my dog back and her out of my life forever, then I'm willing to do that.

[Goosey]

Think I read there where two dogs. If that’s correct why should you pay for one of them if they are common property of the marriage? And if she has a job and a business and you are a student with limited income it seems she is more exposed then you are in a equal distribution by far. 
    Why bend over backwards? The “discovery” has to be truthful.
      Then let them counteroffer your offer.
And “no” is not an acceptable counteroffer.
    It will pan out and get done. It has to be reasonable in the eyes of the judge. It’s just math at some point.
Hang in there I know it’s consuming at times.

[shopgirl26]

Thanks, Goosey.

You're right. There are 2 dogs and she has both (and a cat but she brought that to the marriage.)

While she's working full time and making bank, on paper she has no money because she spends it like water and doesn't save. While I'm a student, I'm also a saver, so I have money in savings. That's why I feel I stand to lose. I'd like spousal support, but I feel like it would be a nightmare to get it.

So far there's been no counter offers, just straight up "no".

[Goosey]

All income statements will have to be listed in discovery.
 Even if she owes back taxes it will show the income she didn’t properly pay taxes on yet. So it’s in play.
   Sounds like her affairs are a mess. I can see the eye roll of her attorney as they review it. I would be assume your lawyer may ramp you down on sweetening the pot to much.
  Even the fact a third party member paying her attorney is in play I would assume.
  Your lawyer should be putting you at ease somewhat. These things moved a bit slow in my situation. Divorce is the new normal unfortunately so there is a backlog. Or maybe it’s like when your partner is pregnant and all you notice are other pregnant people.
   Don’t give away the store. It has to be fair.

[Goosey]

Sounds like your lawyer gave you solid advice on your settlement proposal (second). Let it ride.
   Enjoy the day.  I am trying to practice something someone posted about constant “what if’s”.
   Allow a strict amount of time at some point of the day to “what if”. Then shut it down.
   That’s all the time “what if’s” get to mess with us.
     It works!  I may seem a bit mad when I blurt out “it’s not you time!” In others company but so be it.
   
   

[shopgirl26]

I have a call scheduled for next Thursday morning to go over strategy with my lawyers and prepare for the hearing. I get the sense they are going to advise me not to offer her more money.

Unfortunately today I see her law firm has a 4.7 rating and mine has a 3.0. I don't know how I missed this. I know Google reviews are not always accurate, but it rattled my confidence.

I just want to say I so appreciate the support from this board. I know I have been a real anxious worrying mess. I'm going to start PTSD treatment this week. I'm still experiencing panic attacks. It's hard to accept that I'm afraid of my ex but I am. I live 2000 miles away from her and I'm safe, but last week I came home and couldn't shake the fear she was in my apartment. I caught myself opening closet doors to check. I know that sounds crazy but the last time I thought I was alone, I was attacked.

Anyway, thanks again for your support. I fully intend to pay it forward and offer new members the same grace and kindness you've shown me.

[ForeverDad]

Don't fret over the ratings, they can be subjective and not objective.

Remember, this hearing is addressing the ESA dog.  If the divorce can be wrapped in, great, if not, that's par for the course.

BTW, her lawyer is likely to ask for a continuance in order to have time to prepare the case.  However, your lawyer should oppose this since the possession of the dog is essentially a simple case which does not depend on years of financial records, etc.  Maybe the overall divorce case will be continued to a later date but the possession aspect has no need to be delayed.

Another thought, in addition to the possibility of a last minute "settlement on the court house steps" you could perhaps negotiate an even better deal for yourself by dropping the the financial records requirement if she would agree to an immediate uncontested divorce.  Likely your lawyer will keep his eyes and ears open for such an opportunity.

Another perspective about settlement offers.  You and your lawyer can put an expiration time on them.  Just because you offered generous terms in past offers doesn't mean your stbEx can later claim a prior expired offer.

[Goosey]

I understand your fear. Many here do.
  That will subside over time.
 It’s not irrational, though at this point of the relationship is becomes more of a battle of principle then a battle of…. Whatever the battle was about. (Not being condescending, sure you know what I mean).
    Be aware of your surroundings etc. and don’t be shy to report any suspicious activities or concerns to the police and or your lawyer and friends.
    Ice cream and funny animal YouTube videos are a good distraction. 
   Honestly, I’ve found the police are very appreciative of a heads up and they are professionally neutral but will keep things on their radar.

[Goosey]

And if you are comfortable with the the lawyer at the law firm that’s all that matters.
   Besides the possession of the dog it seems legally this is a simple divorce. (Again not trying to be condescending). (Hell, mine was a simple divorce.).
   Strip off all the emotion.
   Strip off all the past statements and actions.
   Just look at the numbers.
  I know it’s hard but that’s all it comes down to.
  Math.
  Don’t offer her s——t let your lawyer advise you.
      I want to say “get angry” but I couldn’t either.
  I had the “that’s fine, I’ll agree to that” moment. I’m sure we all do in divorce.
    Let your lawyer do his job.
   Doing nothing is never the worst idea.

[Goosey]

Ugh.
Let your lawyer do “their” job.
My bad.

[I Am Redeemed]

I think it's a good idea to seek help for PTSD. What you experienced is frightening and traumatic.

Let your lawyer guide you through this process. They are paid to defend your best interests. Seek out counseling for the emotional stuff that demands you get this over with, no matter the cost, to ease your anxiety.

[shopgirl26]

This weekend I met with a team of high conflict divorce coaches to talk strategy etc. Feeling a bit more empowered than I was last week. They said my BPD ex doesn't have much and to expect her attorney to deflect and smear my character. They told me when that happens, to have my lawyer redirect to "this is a property case. it's her dog."

Sidenote: I met a woman who was also married to another woman with BPD and we were talking and laughing and then she said, "Let me ask you a question, did your ex ever disappear for long stretches of time? Because you know, a lot of BPD people cheat."

And I said, "Oh no, I don't think so...oh wait. She went to a few tattoo conferences over the years."

Yeah. Googled them. They didn't exist. I don't know where she was for 3 weekends in a row in October 2019, but there were no conferences in the area...

It seems every day I discover another lie.

Also, I'd repressed this memory because it's too painful, but the whole thing with the dog fits into a pattern of behaviour. I used to have a cat I brought into the marriage. Three years ago, my wife gave her away while I was at work, and then when I was upset about it, she yelled at me that I "didn't even care about her or pay that cat any attention and you agreed" etc etc. I blocked that memory out because it still hurts, but I'll be sure to tell my lawyer on Thursday.

[shopgirl26]

UPDATE:

Well, she responded with a 90 page sworn affidavit, alleging I abused the dog, neglected the dog, and she came in to rescue him from abuse.

She also registered the dog as HER emotional support animal 2 days after being served. She got a letter from her therapist naming the dog as her ESA and speaking to how distraught she is at the idea of him not receiving proper care. That letter was dated August 19th, the day her filings were due to the court.

She refutes everything that happens when she broke in, and she admits to phoning the police after I called 911 and telling them not to come (which they didn't.)

She also includes bank records of vet and food and care expenses she paid for.

Her lawyer said if I continue with these "baseless accusations" that "there will be consequences" and she's pulling in the 2 friends who helped her steal the dog to serve as witnesses and testify that she only gave him to me on a "trial basis" providing I met her conditions.

In her sworn financial statements, she said she made $1000/month. She makes $5,000 and because her business comes from Instagram, there are daily posts of large (and expensive) tattoos and posts saying she is fully booked for the month. If we go buy the $50 deposits ALONE there is $7,000 unaccounted for. She also supported me and paid all the bills, totalling over $1300/month (but only made $1000?) The $1000 income entitled her to Covid relief from the government, but the max you can make to receive the support is $1000/month and I can prove she made 5 x that.

I'm sorry to be so frantic, but I am experiencing crazy PTSD. She is continuing to use the court system to abuse me. Please help.

[ForeverDad]

We predicted she would either (1) cave or (2) fight like her life was on the line and it's all your fault.  Now you know.

Didn't you move away?  So unless I'm mistaken she's not anywhere close to you?  Are she or her witnesses (our term here is "negative advocates") planning to come in person to court or does your court allow remote appearances?

Probably your lawyer will say something similar to mine, "Signed or even notarized statements are just pieces of paper in the eyes of the court.  The persons either have to be deposed or testify before the court."  What her friends claim, them being non-professionals, would likely be considered as "hearsay" without documentation, possibly heard but then dismissed.

You have some points on your side, the dog was your ESA first, you never gave up your dog, likely she can't document whether the dog was abused, such as with a prompt veterinarian visit, etc.

I doubt she will ever willingly divulge her financial records.  It used to be huge leverage but these days, who knows?  These days few people, even in government, care about fraud, well, unless they're the small percentage who get roasted.

Lastly, is she contesting the divorce itself?  That piece can be delayed longer, though I don't know for what purpose other than for spite, seeing that you're not claiming marital assets.  On your side you have the demand for financial documentation, on her side she can delay, delay and then settle at the last minute with little or no accountability other than a large lawyer bill.

[Goosey]

Pick you battles.
   Take care of you.
Move forward.
   Love your free life.
Your worth it.
 
   

[kells76]

It is traumatizing reading the allegations from a pwBPD. I'm so sorry she is trying to go "scorched earth". 

She has absolutely no evidence that you abused the dog. She has absolutely no evidence that you said she could have the dog.

Now that your L's have seen the affidavit, I wonder if any kind of deposition can happen around that. She's playing with fire if she thinks she can lie her pants off in a courtroom.

Lean hard on your legal team to get a step by step plan. I'm hoping getting "ok, she sent this, so what that means for you now is we go to X, and after that plan on Y happening" could help you regulate -- at least for me, the more I have concrete steps, the better I do emotionally. Find out from them exactly what each of you (that is, you and your Ls) needs to do next.

I remember the nausea and insomnia and just trauma from back then. I'm so sorry it's happening to you. Post whenever you need support. And it's ok to drink about it if that's what you're into. Or give yourself a break and watch dumb stuff on YouTube, or have comfort food for dinner. Be really kind and gentle to yourself in this stage.

It is so hard and I hope you can take one day at a time until you make it to the other side.

[shopgirl26]

We predicted she would either (1) cave or (2) fight like her life was on the line and it's all your fault.  Now you know.

Didn't you move away?  So unless I'm mistaken she's not anywhere close to you?  Are she or her witnesses (our term here is "negative advocates") planning to come in person to court or does your court allow remote appearances?

Probably your lawyer will say something similar to mine, "Signed or even notarized statements are just pieces of paper in the eyes of the court.  The persons either have to be deposed or testify before the court."  What her friends claim, them being non-professionals, would likely be considered as "hearsay" without documentation, possibly heard but then dismissed.

You have some points on your side, the dog was your ESA first, you never gave up your dog, likely she can't document whether the dog was abused, such as with a prompt veterinarian visit, etc.

I doubt she will ever willingly divulge her financial records.  It used to be huge leverage but these days, who knows?  These days few people, even in government, care about fraud, well, unless they're the small percentage who get roasted.

Lastly, is she contesting the divorce itself?  That piece can be delayed longer, though I don't know for what purpose other than for spite, seeing that you're not claiming marital assets.  On your side you have the demand for financial documentation, on her side she can delay, delay and then settle at the last minute with little or no accountability other than a large lawyer bill.

Forever Dad, thanks so much for your reply.

To your questions,

-I did move away so I'm safe, and the process will take place over the phone/Zoom

- She grossly misrepresented her income, and for the purposes of spousal support, my L's would file disclosure requests (her appointment book, her bank records, the business' records etc.) The reason I think this is a good option is this: she not only lied in sworn financial statements, she also lied on her taxes. She also filed a false claim to EI and is falsely collecting EI as we speak and I can prove it. Her business is based on Instagram, and the volume of clients and rate of appointments is publicly available. We can estimate her income based on the volume of appointments multiplied by the base/hourly rate etc. She also supported me while we were together (paying all of our bills) and now she's claiming she makes $300 less than just our bills were every month. So she could be looking at tax evasion, tax fraud, or an investigation for a false EI claim. I'm hoping we can convince her lawyer that we have enough for her to lose credibility in the eyes of the judge should we go to a hearing. Plus she could be on the hook for spousal support and owing the government the money back that she falsely collected.

I hired a high conflict divorce coach who advised me to hammer her with her finances so she folds in mediation and we don't have to go to a hearing. I think I'd like to go this route (if it works.)

[ForeverDad]

Odds on...
... family court chasing after her or reporting her for fraud = very low
... family court forcing her to disclose finances = maybe, eventually
... her inclined to refuse revealing fraudulent past actions = probably
... spousal support = possible but likely brief due to short marriage

[GaGrl]

Your best bet for getting her to reveal financial info is through a deposition. She would be questioned under oath about the very things you mention. She might do very poorly in a deposition.

[Sluggo]

I am concerned as after all this dust settles, you are going to be hit with a huge lawyer bill.  Have you been paying bill in full each month. 

My bill was overwhelming- years to pay-  and court results were poor.  The only people who won were both lawyers.  The lawyers were ruthless in getting paid afterwards.  It was so depressing especially since I did not get what was hoped for.  Every month reminded of the pain of separation when paying bill. 

Divorce is so painful, loss of loved ones is so painful, the system is ripe to take advantage of this pain as lawyers love the battle and lawyers don't help the client to look at the full cost of the battle (your pain, length of time, your money, your how am I going to pay for it) 

Sluggo

[shopgirl26]

Odds on...
... family court chasing after her or reporting her for fraud = very low
... family court forcing her to disclose finances = maybe, eventually
... her inclined to refuse revealing fraudulent past actions = probably
... spousal support = possible but likely brief due to short marriage

I'm not expecting the court to hold her accountable. I realize the justice system rarely holds a BPD accountable. But I'm hoping the threat of her losing her credibility in front of the judge, plus the threat of an investigation into a false EI claim, plus the threat of owing spousal support and costs to me, plus the threat of having her bosses have to turn over their records, might be good pressure we can apply in mediation. That seems to be the route my L's and divorce coach want to go.

[shopgirl26]

I am concerned as after all this dust settles, you are going to be hit with a huge lawyer bill.  Have you been paying bill in full each month. 

My bill was overwhelming- years to pay-  and court results were poor.  The only people who won were both lawyers.  The lawyers were ruthless in getting paid afterwards.  It was so depressing especially since I did not get what was hoped for.  Every month reminded of the pain of separation when paying bill. 

Divorce is so painful, loss of loved ones is so painful, the system is ripe to take advantage of this pain as lawyers love the battle and lawyers don't help the client to look at the full cost of the battle (your pain, length of time, your money, your how am I going to pay for it) 

Sluggo

Sluggo, I'm so sorry to hear about your difficult legal journey and the bills. What a nightmare. That sounds so exhausting and draining. It is so sad to me that divorce is a business. It shouldn't be.

My lawyers took my case at a flat rate because they were confident they could get the dog back. I paid the retainer in full and the understanding is that the retainer covers the cost of the hearing and paperwork and the divorce itself.

[shopgirl26]

LAST UPDATE:

We had our preliminary hearing in front of a judge yesterday. My BPD ex wasn't even there. Her lawyer refused to even consider mediation, and insisted on a full day hearing in December. I think the strategy is to drain me emotionally and financially. A full day hearing would be astronomically expensive. Nearly six thousand dollars for the day, plus all of the work my lawyer would have to do to prepare witnesses, experts, etc.

The judge called the dog's vet records where I'm listed as the owner into question. She said they were hearsay without the vet in to testify. She also wants my therapist and my doctor to testify.

My BPD ex's lawyer is aggressive (no surprise) and I am worried about being cross examined by him. If my ex wins the case, I will be on the hook, not just for the money I've already spent, but for the cost of the hearing and the cost of her legal fees.

I think it's time to start asking myself some hard questions. Some pain in life is optional. While what she did to me was so wrong, I can choose not to sign up for another 6 months of stress and panic and suffering. I miss my dog every day but I also can't live in a state of PTSD and panic for much longer. I landed my dream job yesterday and I want to get on with my life.

With mediation off the table, I can't apply any pressure. I have no leverage. I can quit now and walk away from the money I've spent, or I can sign up for another 6 months of pain and expense and heartbreak, and quite possibly lose, and lose more money in the end.

I'm kind of in shock. My lawyers were confident the judge would push for mediation but she didn't. My lawyers assured me 99% of cases don't make it to a hearing. But here we go. Also, the longer she has the dog, the stronger a case she has for having him remain with her.

Very low day today as I adjust to this news and try and accept what is.

[Goosey]

Congrats on the dream job!  That’s a great accomplishment alone and more impressive with the stress you under.
   Seems you are working through the option process intelligently. 
    The fact you are functioning at the level you are is a win for you personally. 
    Life goes on. You prove that.
  Picking your battles. That’s part of the process it seems.
 

[Ventak]

There are no words...

 

[shopgirl26]

So my divorce coach told me mine is a terrible lawyer (he told me the wrong time for the hearing and then gave me a minutes notice to log on), he was disorganized and he admitted to the judge that he didn’t read either affidavit.

Divorce coach told me to call some other attorneys and see what strategy they’d use. I spoke to some over the weekend and they said her false allegations of neglect and the “trial basis” argument would be looked at skeptical of by the judge. I still have in writing her saying I could have the dog.

I’m going to call a (competent) attorney tomorrow morning and see what they say. Just so I have all the information before I decide how to proceed.

[Sluggo]

and I want to get on with my life.

For me, when I got to
 that point, I felt so much better.  It allowed me to let go of the anger and look forward. 
 It sounds like you are almost there ... and as you know the divorce coach will not be paying the lawyer bills nor have to go through all the upcoming anxiety that you will

Sluggo

[shopgirl26]

Update:

So last Thursday was our hearing. Ex didn't show but a very expensive, top-rated lawyer came in her place and gunned for a full day hearing in December.

Then on Monday at 9 am, that same lawyer wrote to my lawyer offering me a couple grand in exchange for my signing away my rights to the dog, my rights to property, and my rights to spousal support.

I don't know what to make of this. I tend to think she's lost some ground and is showing her hand by making an offer this soon. They didn't even give me a week to back out.

They got the full day hearing they wanted (rather than a cheaper half day.) The full day in court is going to cost upwards of 10,000 (with another $6,000 in a retainer to be paid to her lawyer in the next few weeks so he can get started.) So they come in hot, gunning for a hearing. Then, three days later, they reach out with "take this money, sign here, and make this go away by September 10th."

Wondering what people who have been through a divorce/settlement/negotiation with a BPD make of this new development. My lawyer thinks she is prepared to spend and go to court (but would rather not if she could avoid it.) But her mother is paying. Her mother has already spent $3,000 on a lawyer to scare me off. But I'm hanging on. And now her mother stands to part with another $6,000 just so this lawyer can get started on her daughter's case. And every expert witness is another $5,000. And every additional affidavit is another $1000. Plus the full day hearing is another $3,000.
I think the mother is generous and wants to be a hero, but only to a point. And spending $10,000+ on your daughter's court case when you're saving for retirement isn't a good move.

(I don't want to go to court either, but can I hang in just long enough that they back out?)

In my mind, I'm no longer divorcing the daughter. I'm negotiating with the mom, who, unlike the BPD, is receptive to logic and reason. It's the mother's money they're offering me to walk away (my ex is broke.)

I think they're banking on me taking the money. They think I'm a broke student and I need it. They think I'm overwhelmed with this lawsuit and want out.

I want to come back to them and say, "No money. Just dog, and I'll sign whatever you need me to sign, drop the suit, release BPD ex from spousal obligations, and this is all over." That might throw them. Thoughts?

[ForeverDad]

Remember, you've already spent money, your own money.  Once they put the fear of skyrocketing costs in place, you quickly got an offer, showing their strategy is "shock and awe" to scare you and then expect you to be inclined to accept a little money instead.  Don't throw that compensation offer out the window.  If you do, you'd in effect be countering with a giveaway.  So...

Keep in mind your ESA dog is many miles away and by the time you get to a full day hearing months from now you will have been away from your dog for what, nearly a year?  What is your pal worth in time, effort and money?  Can you choose another ESA dog in your current area?

Your counteroffer (listen to your lawyer's advice) can be something like...

Any settlement must include the entire divorce, wherein afterward neither party seeks any further legal demand or action against the other, without any delays beyond those minimally required by the divorce process.  I propose two alternative terms to choose from.

• (1) I would accept your offer plus the return of my ESA dog in good health.
• (2) I would accept your offer at double the offered amount, which would offset some of my legal expenses* and costs of finding another ESA animal.

* Do not say "court costs" since the lawyer fees and expert fees dwarf what court itself charges.

We're not lawyers here so this is practical not legal advice.  They may be expecting a counteroffer more expensive than their lowball proposal.  Let them choose their pain... include the dog *or* pay more to offset your expenses more.  Let us know what your lawyer thinks, okay?

[shopgirl26]

Hi ForeverDad,

Thanks for your detailed reply. Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to you. I started my new (dream) job this week so it's been hectic. Nice to have something to enjoy after such misery for so long.

So we countered with this:

I will accept your cash offer plus the immediate return of ESA dog and in exchange, I will sign over all assets and property and release BPD ex from all spousal support obligations.
**If you do not accept our offer, we will file a motion to compel the last 3 years of your bank records, your appointment book, and the shop's records, as it has come to our attention that you have grossly underrepresented your income on your sworn financial statements.

Now we wait.

My lawyer is rather ineffective and unresponsive, so I strategized this offer with 2 other lawyers. They agreed this was the best option-- to release her from spousal (which seems important to her) and light a fire under her by drawing attention to the fact she lied about her income and threatening to go after her records and her boss's records which she may want to avoid (because they most likely don't exist due to her disorganization.) Her income will not match her tax records or EI claim, and that may be a problem. At the very least, she would have to "correct" her financial reports and alert the judge that the first set of records was grossly inaccurate.

Both lawyers said given the timing of her offer (2 days after we set the court date) that she is motivated to avoid court. Her mother has been paying, and would be paying for court, and knowing her mother, I can't see her rationalizing spending 10-15 grand that she won't get back (in addition to the 3k she already spent plus whatever she's paid to support my ex over the last 6 months.) Plus, if my BPD ex lost in court, it would be her mother paying my costs. And spousal, since my ex is always broke.

I think the mother wants this over with as soon as possible for as cheap as possible. Hence the September deadline to sign everything over, accept the cash, and wrap things up. It's her money they offered me. I think she assumed I would take the meager cash offer, thinking I was a broke student desperate for cash. I think I've thrown them off by making a counter offer and a vague legal threat.

[shopgirl26]

Update: Well, I tried, but I lost.

The judge ruled on Monday that my BPD ex was credible on the stand (go figure) and I wasn't. My amazing lawyer argued for our 2 dogs to be equally divided under the marital property act, but the judge ignored that argument and only ruled on my dog-- which she said should stay with my ex.

Apparently there were a host of procedural issues. My lawyer wants to appeal the decision, as the judge neglected to rule on the 2nd dog. My lawyer wants the decision overturned and the 2 dogs split between the two of us.

I told him I would decide in the new year. I'm tired. It's been a long slog. I knew there were no guarantees going in, but 40 lawyers I spoke to told me that my wife's credibility was shot the day she broke in and took my dog. But apparently not to this one judge.

To make matters worse, my mother (god love her) phoned my ex wife's mother (I did not know she'd done that)-- who yelled at her about what a terrible person I am, how I'm a liar, and a blackmailer, and then she hung up. I know my BPD ex's mother has drank the Kool-aid and is protecting her kid, but jesus. I've been in tears all week. I just can't get over this.

I'm exhausted from carrying all this pain and anger around. I'm working now, so I kind of just want to offer my BPD ex a bunch of money to end all of this. If I have to spend more money, I'd rather give it to her than to more lawyers.

 

[ForeverDad]

There are no children, so no parenting or custody issues.  Seems the support animal issue is likely over.  What's left to resolve in order to end the marriage?  Are there any assets or debts in dispute?  What is left to argue over?

I understand that even with only spite left the stbEx can still delay a final decree.  But it will come eventually.  I suspect that if you offer her money to settle and quickly end the marriage, she who is financed by her mother, she may counter with a higher demand.

[sterlingblue]

Shopgirl: Sorry the hearing did not go the way it should have gone.  Unfortunately, often it's the luck of the draw in terms of which judge rules on your case.

Just know that after reading your story, I believe you 100%.  Time will heal these wounds, and you will lead a great life.

[Sluggo]

So sorry shopgirl. 

After getting the final decree and ruling from the judge which I lost also, it gave me permission to look forward to the future and not dwell on the past and pain. 

Sluggo

[shopgirl26]

thank you all for the support and kind words. I can't stop sobbing this week. It's being found not credible that gets me. She admitted on the stand to premeditating the whole break in, but because she answered questions "quickly and confidently" she is the credible witness.

the judge ruled on my dog only--so the other dog unfortunately remains property in dispute. My lawyer is beside himself and wants to appeal--he says the judge made procedural errors that make a good case for appeal, and her neglecting to rule on the other dog, when we'd asked her to divide the two dogs, leaves property in dispute. He also wants to argue that this sets a dangerous precedent in family court wherein angry parties can carry out this kind of wild west justice and have their behaviour condoned by the court.

I don't know. People go through so much worse. I've met so many people in support groups who have lost access to their children. I should let this go. But I can't let it go. I've been diagnosed with PTSD from all of this. And she gets off with both dogs and all of her legal bills bankrolled by her (narcissist) mother.

Appealing will cost money. I'm exhausted. But I've sobbed all day and night this week and walking feels like letting her get away with this.

[sterlingblue]

It certainly seems like you have a case for an appeal, but I don't know what the success rate is in overturning a judge's ruling (I'd guess much less than 50%).

I can certainly see both sides of the decision as you said, but you are the only one who knows whether to appeal, or not appeal, will leave you mentally in a better place in the long run.  Think about it and trust yourself to make the right decision.  Then once you make the decision, don't look back.  My two cents, anyway.  Good luck.