Finding support while divorcing wife with BPD

[shopgirl26]

Hi ForeverDad,

Thanks for this!

My lawyer said a lot hinges on the judge we get. Some judges, she said, may extend the deadlines once or twice for my BPD ex. Others will be sticklers. (I'm hoping I get a stickler.) She did say that self-reps are held to the same standard as people with legal representation, so my ex won't get any special treatment for her ignorance of the law.

My ex works but I have the majority of the savings, so I'm fine to give up spousal support in exchange for keeping my savings. That's fine with me.

This hearing on August 26th is solely about the dog. From there, we would have to mediate over the remaining assets, says my lawyer. Both parties have to agree to go into mediation, though, so I bet you any money my ex will refuse. My lawyer said if this happens, if she refuses to negotiate, we would have to go in front of a judge again. If neither of us can afford that, I'd have to withdraw my petition for divorce. In Canada, you don't have to get divorced, you can stay legally separated forever. I'm fine with that too. Most likely it will be my ex who wants to remarry (I'm done with marriage forever) so she would have to come to me for a divorce in a few years' time.

[Goosey]

She will be found to be in “default”.
   Most states are “no fault” , “equitable distribution” so your lawyer will guide you through.
  And it is correct that the Judge has to be fair but in my case (which was a default with last moment signed MSA) I could sense he wasn’t please about her default. Not that it mattered much. Actually was a pleasant shock she wasn’t on the 15 minute zoom call that ends it.
Better for you ultimately if only less drama. More paperwork-less drama haha. 

[Goosey]

Interesting about mediation.  Like I said my ex never never responded to any documented outreach. So it went to default. Like she wasn’t there.
I assume you can compel someone in a civil matter.
  It was nothing but crickets from her on the legal side of the matter.

[shopgirl26]

Hi Goosey,

Wow, that's so interesting to know that your ex just went silent! I guess with a BPD it's all about power and control. In their mind, stonewalling and silence is a form of power and control. It's amazing to me how much bad behaviour they can justify, and how they consider themselves the sole exception to every rule and, in this case, law.

It does say in the paperwork she received that if she doesn't show or submit her stuff on time, a judgment will be made against her. And she's a fighter, so you'd think she'd want to prevent that at all costs. But who knows! Maybe she didn't even read that far. I did submit over 90 pages of evidence to the courts...

[Goosey]

Oh my ex is a smart cookie. And a fighter.
So in these initial days of retrospect the actual legal proceedings and settlement where anti climatic, even when compared to most divorces I assume. 
  But she never responded to any court required notifications at all. Default. Mind you that saved her any expense and maybe she knew the law required a equitable division so why bother, let me pay for it all. (See, she is smart haha)
    I had a brief email exchange when she finally found out we were divorced. Her words still cut me. She has a wonderful way of making me feel like it is all my doing.
   Ugh. But today is better.
   Empathy sucks haha.

 

[Goosey]

For it to go into “default” required several certified notifications with weeks of time for a response. We didn’t have anything to divide except the home value which again (amazingly) she and I made a fair agreement with a one line email exchange. . (Any agreement is shocking! That hadn’t happened in years!).
   She’s moved on obviously. And I’m jealous of that. Not of the relationship, just the ability to move on.
 Nights and morning, if we could just skip them for a while haha.

[Goosey]

It’s interesting you surmise it may be about power and control. 
   
  I filed for divorce initially over two years ago after she left for over several months. It was the really chaotic insane times. Honestly I don’t even remember why I filed…. Maybe the financial repercussions and exposure, I don’t know.
   She went ballistic so intensely and demanded  the complaint be taken back. And I did! I just let it expire for lack of procedure (prosecution).
   She asked me for a divorce several months later so I paid for it all.  Then she just ignored it all till like d-day. Then got a fair settlement.
   Played again I was.  That’s ok it’s the last time.

[shopgirl26]

It’s interesting you surmise it may be about power and control. 
   
  I filed for divorce initially over two years ago after she left for over several months. It was the really chaotic insane times. Honestly I don’t even remember why I filed…. Maybe the financial repercussions and exposure, I don’t know.
   She went ballistic so intensely and demanded  the complaint be taken back. And I did! I just let it expire for lack of procedure (prosecution).
   She asked me for a divorce several months later so I paid for it all.  Then she just ignored it all till like d-day. Then got a fair settlement.
   Played again I was.  That’s ok it’s the last time.

Thanks so much for sharing your experience with me. I'm sorry to hear you were put through the wringer, but I am glad that you are out now. I know, mornings and evenings are difficult. I'm going through the grieving process right now because I liked being married. I liked making future plans with someone. I just chose the wrong person.

My ex sees me as an abuser and blames me, not just for the problems in our marriage, but for all of her problems personally. I have to distance myself from that and remember that she was diagnosed with BPD, sought zero treatment, and exacerbated the issue with substance abuse. Her word is not the absolute truth. Neither is your ex's.

What I'm realizing in speaking with people such as yourself, is that this is a community of sensitive and empathetic people. The one thing we share is that our BPD exes exploited that empathy. Even after the relationship has ended, we are looking back over our history and looking for ways to grow as people so these same patterns don't manifest again. The BPD exes are still sitting firm in their anger and blame. It's a bit like drinking poison hoping for the other person to die, but that is their journey. There's a reason none of us could live in that space of total negativity with them anymore.

Good for you for being strong and getting through it. Thanks again for explaining the process to me.

In speaking to people like yourself, I feel like I'm meeting people who escaped a cult. Six months ago, I felt totally alone in my experience and cut off from the world. No one knows of her diagnosis but me. I thought I had to accept the abuse because of what a bad person I was. That's what my ex would do –– lash out, call me an abuser, and say I deserved the abuse because I was an abuser and abused her ten times worse.

I guess I'm worried my ex will turn on the bubbly charm with a judge, and the judge will be swayed by this performance. But based on her history of ignoring and dismissing court notifications, maybe she won't even show.

[Goosey]

Thank you for sharing your “above post”.
  Your observations are spot on and your words show that you are aware of the situation and can process it logically.
  It’s helpful to me, and others I am sure.  (I’m still jumbled most times). 
   As I halting navigated through divorce it became clear that there wouldn’t be a “perry mason” scene involved. I wrote long descriptions of the insanity, I wrote my faults and weaknesses.
   At two interviews for hiring an attorney prior to proceeding they just told me to put those notes away. That unless I wanted to spend tens of thousands of dollars to air them out it didn’t matter. They said it’s only about a fair settlement. It took some time to realize that’s how courts handled what must be the most volatile type of rulings processed.
   Your ex may not respond till the last moment also. Maybe have a settlement proposal drafted for that possibility. You’ll need it either way. 
   In my case I never was approached about mediation. And I assume that it takes two parties to negotiate so that Avenue is void when the other party is not gonna show.
    In the long run it certainly doesn’t hurt your case when the other party ignores official court requests.

   
   
   

[Sluggo]

What I'm realizing in speaking with people such as yourself, is that this is a community of sensitive and empathetic people. The one thing we share is that our BPD exes exploited that empathy. Even after the relationship has ended, we are looking back over our history and looking for ways to grow as people so these same patterns don't manifest again

Shopgirl,

I whole heartily agree... Great group of people on this site. Glad you're one of the great people also sharing and supporting. 

Sluggo

[shopgirl26]

Thank you for sharing your “above post”.
  Your observations are spot on and your words show that you are aware of the situation and can process it logically.
  It’s helpful to me, and others I am sure.  (I’m still jumbled most times). 
   As I halting navigated through divorce it became clear that there wouldn’t be a “perry mason” scene involved. I wrote long descriptions of the insanity, I wrote my faults and weaknesses.
   At two interviews for hiring an attorney prior to proceeding they just told me to put those notes away. That unless I wanted to spend tens of thousands of dollars to air them out it didn’t matter. They said it’s only about a fair settlement. It took some time to realize that’s how courts handled what must be the most volatile type of rulings processed.
   Your ex may not respond till the last moment also. Maybe have a settlement proposal drafted for that possibility. You’ll need it either way. 
   In my case I never was approached about mediation. And I assume that it takes two parties to negotiate so that Avenue is void when the other party is not gonna show.
    In the long run it certainly doesn’t hurt your case when the other party ignores official court requests.

   
   
   

Hi Goosey,

You hit the nail on the head when you said not to expect a "Perry Mason scene." I'm trying to manage my own expectations and not expect justice, but rather a fair settlement.

I'm sorry that your notes couldn't be included in your case. It's so tough to realize that the years of abuse can't be counted when navigating divorce. In my mind, they should be. But the law won't intervene and decide who is in the right and who is in the wrong.

Re the settlement proposal, is this different from a settlement letter? I already tried that, and my ex balked at it.

I know if my ex does respond at all, she will wave around the sales receipt for the dog. She still thinks this is the trump card. My lawyers say it's not because whatever is bought for the family is matrimonial property.

What has brought me comfort lately is my friend's advice to me: "Anything your ex does from now on has to be a valid legal argument." Good luck to her with that. She is 100% brute force, threats, insults, and emotions. None of that works in a court room.

[shopgirl26]

Update: Well, she responded. And the response makes little sense, just as I thought it would.

This morning my BPD ex sent my lawyers a one page response. In it, she says she "contests everything"...(okay?) and under relief sought she put "divorce." She told my lawyer that she is currently self represented but will be getting a lawyer. She did say that once already though, and no lawyer every materialized.

This response has sent me into a tailspin. I don't know why. I guess I was expecting her to ignore the summons and let the deadline fly by. Now it looks like she's bracing for a fight.

But I don't know how she can "contest everything." How do you contest screenshots of text messages you were a part of? How do you contest a police report of something that happened? How do you contest my multiple doctor's notes?

I can't decide which is worse, her self representing and dragging us through a wild west approach to the law, or her hiring an attorney who will legitimize her chaos and emotional outbursts.

[Notwendy]

I may be cynical here, but we took plenty of vacations in very nice places to appease BPD mom.

But the drama and the conflicts between my parents didn't change because of them. And it wasn't exactly quality time with Dad either as it revolved around mom.

You can still have a vacation later, with just you and the boys if you wish.

Saying you are moving out and taking a vacation together gives a mixed message. It's not a clear boundary with her.  And it may be more confusing for you if she's on her best behavior during that time.

[Goosey]

Don’t tailspin.
  You got this.
You actually kinda predicted the total rejection of the complaint.
  The procedure will go on anyhow.
   
  I know this is impossible to do, but just try to not take it personally. This is the disorder we have dealt with. 
   Do not tailspin.  You’ll be ok.

 

[Goosey]

My lawyer would listen to me compassionately (while the ticker was ticking of course).  I recall one conversation when I was in a tailspin with terror for her well-being. He stated calmly the options to have legal intervention, then he said he was putting on his “lawyer” hat and told me he was looking out for me. (You cry when you hear that at those moments.) and that as long as I wanted this cycle to end he would guide me through.
  You should feel that your lawyer is your best friend.
(At 400 an hour haha.).
  Let them insulate you from the raw process by having the pre determined plan. This ain’t rocket science to them.
 
  I get the tailspin. We have all experienced it.
  Stay ok, you can do this.
  You can.
  You KNOW you can! 
   
 

[ForeverDad]

Domestic (family) court is there for a reason.  It is there to guide the unwinding of a marriage.  And it will do it despite whatever sabotaging either spouse attempts, even when it may take longer.

On this board over the years there have been many accounts of high conflict.  When there is extended conflict it typically requires ending the relationship, in other words, a divorce.  I don't know of any case where a court told a member they couldn't divorce.  Not one.

So as long as either of you wants a divorce, it will definitely happen.  Well, eventually.

[shopgirl26]

Update: she got a lawyer. And he's one of the top attorneys in the city and a senior partner.

I also have a senior attorney.

I'm feeling a bit defeated that I've lost the advantage I had of looking like the organized, responsible adult. She will have to stick to deadlines now and show respect for the court. And this attorney will lend her tantrums and bad behaviour legitimacy.

Before I was going to be cross examined by my BPD ex which would have been a cake walk. Now I'm going to be cross examined by a senior attorney. I also stand to lose half my savings because she was none, even though she's working full time and making bank and I'm a student.

[kells76]

Ugh, frustrating. We can work with it, though.

Has your L worked with her L before, or does your L have any feedback about/"inside scoop" on her L? Sometimes getting that info can help you strategize. I.e., if her L puts up with, um, "spicy" client behavior, but only up to a point, that's good to know where that point is.

I wonder if reframing "losing the advantage" would give another perspective on things.

What if instead, it's really you gaining more walls around her? Now, as you said... she "has to" stick to deadlines. She "has to" be respectful in in-person courtroom situations. Aaannnddd... she's gonna hate it. Was she ever able to stick with a change for the positive for very long? She may be able to "hold it together" for a while. Perhaps enjoy that while it lasts. It's a win for you to not have to deal with her acting out. And when she finally loses it, well, in a sense, that's also a win for you.

I do get it, though -- maybe the frustration of "why can't you people see ALL the dysfunction that I swear to you I had to put up with for years? I just want you to see what she's really like"?

Now I'm going to be cross examined by a senior attorney.

Stressful. Will a deposition be first? Consider that every "move" she and her team want to put you through, you're well within your rights to have happen to her. If you get cross-examined, then she will be, too, right? If you get deposed, then she'll get deposed, too, right?

The difference, at least with getting deposed, is you have the ability to not over-answer, to not JADE, to not incriminate yourself.

So, consider the "normal" question of "do you know what time it is?"

A "normal" answer is "Oh, yeah, let me get my watch, ok, let's see, I think it's 9:45, wait, maybe 9:50"

A "deposition answer is: "Yes."

See the difference?

We can help you prep here, and you WILL make it through.

 

kells76

[shopgirl26]

Hi Kells76,

Thanks so much for reframing this for me and offering me a new perspective.

I don't believe there will be a deposition first. I think it's our hearing over the dog with the cross examination of both of us in front of a judge. I know everything I've submitted is truthful and accurate. I guess, even though she has a lawyer, that doesn't mean she won't lie (and she might, because to her, feelings are facts.)

She has this whole story about how I financially, emotionally and physically abused her for years so she'll probably run with that. I told my lawyers that months ago, and they didn't seem concerned. They said abuse is irrelevant to a property case, which this is. A judge isn't going to want to listen to who did what to who.

She has 11 business days until August 19th when her lawyer sends us their response. She has to send her lawyer all he needs in advance of that date so he can put it together. It took my team three months, so it's gonna be a hustle. She doesn't have a ton of time to meet with him before the hearing (he has other clients) and I'm sure he's not going to want to hustle because she's disorganized and just hired him now.

That said, I am so worried that I'm going to be on the stand defending myself against allegations of abuse. Although, if it comes to that, there is a police report following the incident when she broke in, then I hired an attorney, had a police officer tell her not to contact me, and I left town. I never contacted her again so she can't say I harassed or stalked her. On paper, she is the aggressor, not me. She then defied the warning from police and sent me an angry email in May, which we've submitted to the court.

Her mother is bankrolling this attorney. Her mother is a malignant narcissist, so I'm sure they are bonding over their shared hatred of me. That said, I don't have a lot of money for her to come for, so is her mother going to want to spend between 10 and 18k because my BPD ex is angry? I don't know.

If my ex refuses to go into mediation and insists on having her day in court, it will be another retainer of 5,000 plus another 6,000 for each additional day in court. Is it worth it at this point?

[kells76]

OK, so if I'm tracking with you, this is a very "boilerplate" kind of hearing? I.e., there is a specific "format" for your hearing, and it doesn't deviate from that?

While we got close to court (had a court date), we never went, so I don't have the deep experience that many other members do. There was a "discovery" phase though, and my understanding is that answers to the "discovery" phase questions would be part of the deposition content.

Is there a list of cross-examination questions that is set beforehand? Is there a procedure for getting the questions ahead of time? OF course, like you mentioned, you can kiiinnnndddaa assume you know what she wants her L to "ask" you about.

That said, I am so worried that I'm going to be on the stand defending myself against allegations of abuse.

Understandable. I get it -- the thing with pwBPD is the emotional believability. If you haven't had lots of up-close experience with them, they can come across as emotionally convincing.

This is where I'd lean hard on your L about exact steps to take if you find yourself on the stand. How much can you just end questions with "No" or "That did not happen" or "Again I refer to the police report, and that's all there is to say about that". Ask how you can turn the loaded and leading questions around to point to what she actually did. Sounds like you have good L's. They'll know what to do. You're the expert on how your ex behaves. Keep giving them that info, and let them be the experts on how to make it through cross-examination when that's who you're up against. And again, see what they know about your ex's L -- what to keep an eye out for.

More specifically, I've read from some members on this board that we often have such a sense of obligation... we HAVE to answer the question, and we HAVE to answer it now. Consider, if it comes to that, that when you're up there on the stand... you don't have to answer everything right away. Take a second, take a deep breath, and look at your team. They'll certainly object whenever and however they can, if it's an unfair question. Remember that No is an answer.

Fighting a battle of emotional convincing-ness or emotional credibility against a pwBPD is a losing proposition. But like you said, this situation is ONLY about one thing (the "property"), not about how much she truly feels something. And that's her Achilles heel -- when it comes to backing up how much she feels like the dog is hers, and you're abusive, and you're a demon, and she saved the dog from you, and blah blah blah, she won't have anything concrete.

It's just the matter of you making it through her show.

Back to the whole mediation/$$$ question...

Run this past your L's -- so, basically, you have all the documentation that the dog is yours, right? So her trying to keep it, and preventing you from having it, and not giving it back... it's all frivolous? Consider having some clause in closing documents or settlement or hearing wrap-up that if she loses, she pays ALL your fees. I mean... it's kind of a double bind for her, right? If she's "so obviously right", then she has nothing to lose.

Hope these jumbled thoughts help...

kells76

[shopgirl26]

Hi Kells76,

You're right this is a boilerplate hearing with a specific format. From what I understand from my lawyers, we present what we have, they present what they have, my ex gets cross examined by my L, I get cross examined by hers. I don't believe the questions are submitted ahead of time.

The emotional believability is the thing. You hit the nail on the head. I'm sure this lawyer took the case because she's presenting herself as Judy Garland battling the wicked witch to keep her dog (when she has another one and a cat and all the furniture and the joint account.) But in her mind, I got everything because I kept my savings and got the car that my dead grandma left to me in her will. But the 2 dogs were marital property. She still doesn't seem to get that part.

Anyway, back to the dog--- unfortunately, she won't be able to come at this with any crazy accusations because her lawyer will tell her she needs to back them up. She'll allege I'm an unfit parent, that I let him pee on the floor a few times, but that doesn't rise to the level of animal abuse. Again, a dog is property in the eyes of the law. Anyway, I don't know how she would backpeddle on the texts she sent me where she encouraged me to register him as an ESA. They exist and I've submitted them to the court. "I changed my mind because I was mad" isn't a thing, lawyer or not.

In Canada, you can't get the other side to pay your full legal bills. You can get a percentage. Originally we were optimistic because the more disrespect for the court the other side shows, the more they waste the court's time, the higher a percentage you can ask for. But that may not happen now. Now it looks like there will be someone in her corner fighting for half of the savings I need to live on and in the end, I may not end up recouping any of my legal fees.

Yiiiikes.

[kells76]

OK, all good info to have.

Ugh about the legal bills. Am I understanding correctly that now that she has a L, that decreases the % that you'll likely be able to make her pay? Is the connection that because she has a L, she may be less disrespectful in court, ergo, has to pay a smaller %? Or is there another connection I'm missing?

One more thought struck me --

As we're both well aware      pwBPD are often a lot of talk, and little to no follow through. Before I knew much about BPD, I always assumed that the kids' mom meant what she said, and I would base decisions off of that -- after all, who doesn't mean what they say, especially when it's so intense?

But now I know that pwBPD (of a certain variety; i.e. not all pwBPD but sounds like your ex and the kids' mom are similar) are generally a lot of blustery talk and no concrete followthrough.

So -- don't rule out that for all her bravado and "being convinced" of winning at the hearing --

she might settle on the courthouse steps right before the hearing, so have something ready for her to sign.

Prep documents ahead of time (with your L's) so that in the not-impossible scenario that right before entering the courtroom, she's like "OK you can have the dog", you can be like "Great, I agree, sign here".

[Ventak]

In court, especially over property rights, "abuse" only counts if it is physical abuse or specific threats of physical abuse.  One can generally be a mean-spirited a** and the courts really don't care.  They only care about a "fair" distribution of assets.  This is where her taxes and business ownership will hurt her.  Her getting an attorney should be very useful for you here.  No good attorney is going to let her ramble on about what a bad person you are, as it is completely irrelevant to your case.  No good attorney will go after your savings if their client can't prove their income and assets, they would instead do anything to get you to settle without making money an issue.  They will likely show the receipts and any other evidence they may have that leans things in your exes direction and call it a day.

That's my experience, anyway...

[ThanksForPlaying]

It's good that you're getting prepared for all possible scenarios.  My experience in court has generally been that it's much less dramatic than anticipated.  10+ years ago, by uBPDexW didn't even show up for the final divorce hearing, and I was left thinking "that's it?"

As others have noted here, you may be surprised at how little you actually get to say in front of the court.  You may even feel like you didn't get a chance to tell your side of the story.  In your case, the court is looking at very specific property issues, and might even have a full decision written up before the hearing based on what has been submitted.  Like, you might both get cross-examined, and the judge will pull out an already prepared ruling, seemingly not even taking into account what you said. This is sometimes because they already know the ruling, they are just looking for anything that dramatically changes it.  Just stay calm, be respectful, and let BPD do the work. Courts have a lot of experience with this stuff and often have seen it all before, depending on the judge.  Good luck.

[ForeverDad]

The prior posts are spot-on.

You may get a settlement offer just before the hearing.  Be prepared also with terms that encourage compliance.  Maybe you'll get a bonus and be able to wrap in terms for the divorce too.  Wouldn't that be a happy surprise?  It would be interesting to be a fly on the wall as the lawyers exchange offers, perhaps even beforehand.

Courts may listen to the complaints but they've heard it all before.  They'd rather the most minimal intervention.  For you it's your life and oh so personal but for them, the judge, the lawyers and staff, it's another day at work.

Yes, it's even probable that the court will have reviewed your motions and issue a decision then.  Though you never know for sure how much was prepared in advance.  In my case, in my early days of separation my then-spouse was charged with Threat of DV.  After a few continuances we had a trial at the end of the day after all the other cases were handled.  I had a recording of the incident and she admitted she said what they heard.  Then... judge promptly recited a spiel where he ruled she was Not Guilty.  He even cited case law from a nearby jurisdiction that he claimed justified that ruling.  (The ADA afterward told me he disagreed, the ruling was a stretch.)  I have since concluded the judge may have (1) given her a break since it was her first time in a court's scrutiny or (2) women and mothers get a break.

[shopgirl26]

In court, especially over property rights, "abuse" only counts if it is physical abuse or specific threats of physical abuse.  One can generally be a mean-spirited a** and the courts really don't care.  They only care about a "fair" distribution of assets.  This is where her taxes and business ownership will hurt her.  Her getting an attorney should be very useful for you here.  No good attorney is going to let her ramble on about what a bad person you are, as it is completely irrelevant to your case.  No good attorney will go after your savings if their client can't prove their income and assets, they would instead do anything to get you to settle without making money an issue.  They will likely show the receipts and any other evidence they may have that leans things in your exes direction and call it a day.

That's my experience, anyway...

Hey Ventak,

Thanks for your comment and support. I know I've been a mess all over these boards in the last few months.

If my BPD ex retained her lawyer day before yesterday, it's likely that's all they've done-- the initial consult, signed the contract and paid the retainer. So she hasn't even been given her to-do list yet. When she finds out she has to file 3 years of taxes, document all her assets and debts, dig up documentation to support her affadavit, file an affadavit and have her lawyer swear it, file a statement of property and a statement of income...she will become overwhelmed. This is a person who, when I would do our taxes each year, would throw her hands up and say "it's too hard, I'll do it later!"

The to-do list was overwhelming for me and I had months to complete it. She has roughly 10 business days. I'm assuming her lawyer would need about a week to take everything she submits and put together a package for the court by August 19th.

I'm hoping she decides to settle. I'm prepared to even offer her money again. While she doesn't deserve it because she's working full time, I have an interview Monday for my dream job. I'm starting to see paying her off as "exit fees"- money I would gladly pay for my freedom and peace of mind.

[kells76]

. I'm prepared to even offer her money again. While she doesn't deserve it because she's working full time, I have an interview Monday for my dream job. I'm starting to see paying her off as "exit fees"- money I would gladly pay for my freedom and peace of mind.

That can be a helpful mindset. No, it's not fair, and it's not because she deserves the money. It's you "taking the steering wheel" and deciding on what your values are, what you want in your life going forward, and what you're willing to do to make that happen.

Negotiating tip -- when you do make a $$$ offer, lowball it. Make it LESS than you're actually willing to give. Let's say she rejects that... then you can "grudgingly" offer a little more (perhaps, again, not even your max).

What this does is makes her feel like she's "winning". Because pwBPD often see EVERY interaction as a competition of "who's on top and who's below, who's the winner and who's the loser" (I'm sure you've been through that before  ), finding ways for us to get what we need while the pwBPD "feels like the winner" is how we get stuff done.

So, lowball her, with "hints" that you're "giving in" to her and "inching up". I suspect that if she feels like she "wrung it out of you" or "made you give more" that she might be more inclined to take it.

That being said, every pwBPD is unique, so if this doesn't fit her mentality, don't feel obligated to try it.

Food for thought... and hang in there... it WILL finish, it won't go on forever.

kells76

[shopgirl26]

Hi Kells76,

Good advice! Thank you. I've already offered her 3,000 for the dog and she refused but I'm prepared to go up to 6 just to get away from her. So I'll offer 4 and go up from there so she can feel she's winning.

The malignant narcissist mother in law is now steering my ex's ship. The mother has her own unresolved divorce issues (because she "didn't need" therapy) so now it's the wrath of the family I'm facing. I think you're right. Allowing my ex to feel she's fleecing me and punishing me may work. Having said that though, she knows the way to punish me is to refuse to return the dog, so even if I had a million, dimes to doughnuts she wouldn't take it, even though that would benefit her.

She will always cut off her nose to spite my face.

[shopgirl26]

Okay so I'm considering having my lawyer approach her lawyer and offer her $4,000 for the return of the dog and signing of papers to be done with all of this and not go to trial.

What do we think?

She may be so stressed out with the amount of work she has to do before August 19th that the offer may turn her head. On the other hand, if she refuses it, we can say to the judge that we've tried twice now and she refuses for the sake of refusing. It makes her look unreasonable.

I know that if I go that route, she wouldn't be on the hook for costs, so I wouldn't be able to recoup my legal fees, but at least I'd be free of her and this would be over.

[kells76]

Would you still be required to participate in mediation if you went that route?

Not sure if it's this way for your hearing, but for some family law processes, parents are required to do mediation before moving forward. So you couldn't just be like "we discussed some stuff over email but she didn't agree, so that counts as mediation so we don't have to do it now before trial".

I.e., if you did this $4K offer "offline", and she refused, would that undermine your strategy if you then had to do mediation before the hearing?

Probably questions for your L...