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How to communicate after a contentious divorce... Following a contentious divorce and custody battle, there are often high emotion and tensions between the parents. Research shows that constant and chronic conflict between the parents negatively impacts the children. The children sense their parents anxiety in their voice, their body language and their parents behavior. Here are some suggestions from Dean Stacer on how to avoid conflict.
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Author Topic: Empathy vs No Empathy ?  (Read 452 times)
B1987
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« on: August 02, 2021, 02:57:27 AM »

Hi all

I've read a lot that people with bpd are incapable of having empathy. Whilst this is something I wouldn't necessarily disagree with (my ex showed a lack of empathy towards me numerous times), there were times where she seemed to display deep levels of empathy.

For example, if she saw a homeless person on the street, she'd get upset for them and go out her way to give them food or money. One time, I had to stop her giving all the money she had on her to a homeless guy (I wasn't trying to be mean, it's just that she'd have had no money for herself).

She'd also see people on tv who were in poverty and get upset and talk about how awful it must be for them to live like that.

One of the things that made her most upset was seeing people get cheated on in tv shows. It would really get to her and she'd go into a deep dive saying 'how could anyone do that to someone?' This was particularly confusing to me considering their tendencies for cheating and lying (I think my ex cheated on me but have no evidence) and how quick they can discard their partners.

Anyone else noticed glimpses of deep empathy from their bpd partners? Or is it just surface level stuff?
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grumpydonut
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« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2021, 03:36:32 AM »

Hey,

Only a year into my psychology degree, but there is apparently a difference between "hot" and "cold" empathy.

"Hot" refers to them feeling the other person's emotions, while "cold" is the ability to understand people's struggles on a logical, cognitive level, but not necessarily feeling how they feel.

Not going to fully apply that to you situation, for if it applies to you then you'll know!
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B1987
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« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2021, 03:41:06 AM »

Thank you grumpydonut. That's very interesting!
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tvda
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« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2021, 03:58:32 AM »

I would also call it 'easy' or 'hard' empathy.

Easy empathy is the one that doesn't really cost you too much, and that gets you praise.

Hard empathy is when taking the other person's feelings into account comes with a cost, or even sacrificing your own needs and desires to some degree, without necessarily receiving praise for it.

I never saw my BPD exes practicing hard empathy. I did see a lot easy empathy, especially in public settings, because it helped 'build their image'.
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B1987
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« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2021, 05:21:27 AM »

I would also call it 'easy' or 'hard' empathy.

Easy empathy is the one that doesn't really cost you too much, and that gets you praise.

Hard empathy is when taking the other person's feelings into account comes with a cost, or even sacrificing your own needs and desires to some degree, without necessarily receiving praise for it.

I never saw my BPD exes practicing hard empathy. I did see a lot easy empathy, especially in public settings, because it helped 'build their image'.

I completely relate to that.
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Red22

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« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2021, 06:11:08 AM »

Mine had empathy in that she could fully understand how a person felt in a situation or experience, but that didn't affect her in a positive way; she would revel in another's bad situation.
There was never a, "Poor dog, imagine how it must feel" and then go help the dog. Instead, there was an involvement with the suffering. I can't call it her enjoyment, more like a fascination that could rivet her attention.

I can remember many instances of noticing that she actually DID have empathy long after I'd thought it was absent, but it was reversed into her getting involved with the person or creature in the bad situation.

Plenty of red flags there, when I think about it.
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IntoTheWind
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« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2021, 08:27:04 AM »

The reason I believe they don't have empathy like you or I is because if they did they'd understand how to keep you around in a non-abusive way. What's a more authentic way of keeping someone around than understanding someone, their needs, and how your actions affect them? My ex only knew how to dial up the games/torture which is what resulted in me noping out. If she understood me, had compassion or could empathize, she could've kept me around for far longer because she'd understand I was getting to my emotional limits. She didn't have a clue. Her only method was to crank up on the behaviors that were ruining our relationship in the first place, she was a one trick pony, once that didn't work and she broke her toy, she just removed me from her life completely (again, a massive sign of lack of compassion here).
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Sappho11
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« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2021, 02:44:47 PM »

Excellent points by grumpydonut and tvda.

My ex prided himself on being an empath. I was foolish enough to believe him.

He once came over to console me on a particularly bad day unrelated to him, but not before he had put me down several times and I had downright begged him to come over. While he held me in his arms, he uttered the cryptic words: "I don't understand this, but I see it".

Lots of cold, easy empathy for show, for other people's opinions, and not least for weaponising ("But five weeks ago I came over to console you! Why are you now asking for affection?" etc)

Empathy of the true kind? None.
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« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2021, 06:39:57 PM »

I've read a lot that people with bpd are incapable of having empathy.

when it comes to personality disorders, and BPD and NPD especially, the amount of misinformation on the internet is staggering.

people with bpd are, very generally speaking, as capable of empathy as you and i or anyone else is (depending on how capable "anyone else" is).

everyones ability to empathize may be compromised, or, for that matter, overrated.

having said that, people with personality disorders, as a general rule, do struggle with empathy skills, or their ability to empathize may be impaired (in general, or situationally).

for example, everyone struggles to empathize when they are distressed. but a personality disorder makes one more likely to experience distress, and also to have a lower tolerance for it.

Excerpt
Why People with Personality Disorders Have Poor Empathy Skills

BPD sufferers, or anyone in emotional turmoil are often flooded with conflicted and painful emotions. During times of dysregulation,  Borderline Personality sufferers can be so overwhelmed with emotion that they become internally focused, self centered and self absorbed.   Often a person with BPD doesn’t have the emotional energy to consider the emotions of others.

Showing empathy isn't so easy when it's an experience we can't relate to.

People suffering from BPD have a  problem with poor emotional vocabularies, meaning they find it hard to label and understand - their own feelings - let alone understand others. This inability to understand or accept their own feelings leads to feelings of confusion, shame and self hatred, one of the defining traits of a BPD sufferer. Additionally, a person suffering from Borderline Personality Disorder is often not very kind to themselves.  They often comfort themselves by dysfunctional means - cutting and self injury are a good examples of dysfunctional soothing.

Even worse, if a pwBPD perceives they are being attacked or criticized by our pain and suffering, or that there is even the possibility of being attacked, their defenses may go into over drive and the attack rather than empathize.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=130485.0

Excerpt
For example, if she saw a homeless person on the street, she'd get upset for them and go out her way to give them food or money. One time, I had to stop her giving all the money she had on her to a homeless guy

this might be better thought of as sympathy or compassion, as opposed to empathy skills - the ability of a person to understand the perspective of another, and why they have it. its what most of us are referring to (a lack thereof it) when we describe the brutal breakups we went through.

regarding empathy and whether its situational, or self referential, or deep, or surface level, there are five levels of empathy impairment. people with bpd generally operate somewhere between 1-2 (3 or 4 when you get higher on the spectrum)

Excerpt
Healthy (0) Capable of accurately understanding others’ experiences and motivations in most situations. Comprehends and appreciates others’ perspectives, even if disagreeing. Is aware of the effect of own actions on others.

Mild impairment (1) Somewhat compromised in ability to appreciate and understand others’ experiences; may tend to see others as having unreasonable expectations or a wish for control. Although capable of considering and understanding different perspectives, resists doing so. Inconsistent awareness of effect of own behavior on others.

Impaired (2) Hyper-attuned to the experience of others, but only with respect to perceived relevance to self. Excessively self-referential; significantly compromised ability to appreciate and understand others’ experiences and to consider alternative perspectives. Generally unaware of or unconcerned about effect of own behavior on others, or unrealistic appraisal of own effect.

Very Impaired (3) Ability to consider and understand the thoughts, feelings and behavior of other people is significantly limited; may discern very specific aspects of others’ experience, particularly vulnerabilities and suffering. Generally unable to consider alternative perspectives; highly threatened by differences of opinion or alternative viewpoints. Confusion or unawareness of impact of own actions on others; often bewildered about peoples’ thoughts and actions, with destructive motivations frequently misattributed to others.

Extreme Impairment (4) Pronounced inability to consider and understand others’ experience and motivation. Attention to others' perspectives virtually absent (attention is hypervigilant, focused on need-fulfillment and harm avoidance). Social interactions can be confusing and disorienting.
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