Boundaries at work with my MIL

[pursuingJoy]

I just wanted to offer a timeline that shows how boundaries have improved my relationships.

2019 - things came to a head when BPD MIL said she'd made plans with my H to move onto our property. I said no. H was very angry with me for saying no, even though he and I agreed, for years prior, that she would never move onto our property. MIL said she would never visit us until I invited her. She then gave me a week to invite her, or she'd never come again. I ignored her demands. I accompanied my H and visited her three times between Thanksgiving and Christmas, with planned activities in place.

2020 - conversation about MIL visiting came up again. H said he wanted his mom to come see the bathroom we just remodeled. I wanted to say no, but I compromised and said I would feel comfortable with it, provided she came for the day (she only lives 2 hrs away and has visited for the day before). H was upset and angry and acted insulted, like this was an offensive suggestion. I was upset at his response but I held the line and said I'd be happy for her to come, but it was important to me that she not spend the night.

Yesterday - H said he wanted to take his mom some ribs he just learned how to smoke, but gave me a sideways glance and said they'd be cold and no good by the time he drove them to her. I nodded and knew it wasn't the end of it. About ten minutes later, he blurted out, 'so where did we leave it with mom coming down? I mean, if she apologizes, will you let her visit?' I wanted to ask, 'apologize for which part?' but I held it together and stuck to the same message.

Me: 'I'm happy for your mom to come visit for the day, just not overnight.'
Him: 'That's ridiculous. I'm not doing that.'
Me: 'What about it is ridiculous?'
Him: 'I'd have to drive 8 hours in one day just to get her and take her home. I'm not doing that.'
Me: 'You offered to pick up my mom and take her home, and she lives 8 hours away.'
Him: 'No I'm not doing that.' -silence for the rest of the ride-

He acts like it's such an offensive suggestion. Last time he told me you don't tell family they can't stay overnight. He doesn't care about driving at all. My best guess is that he tells his mom about the bathroom we remodeled, or the ribs, and his mom wistfully says, 'I wish I could visit you, come down for a weekend.' He turns and asks me, and I become the persecutor for saying no. Anyone else have any theories?

She has visited for the day before, at times she drove, and other times someone else drove her. H's daughter lives 10 minutes away from MIL, so if it comes up again, I'll suggest that we invite them both for the day so they can drive down together. My goal here is to show that I'm willing to make concessions, that I'm making an effort.

Progress, though, am I right? I was calmer, and so was he. I maintained the same messaging. Boundaries work.

[Kwamina]

Hi pursuingJoy

I remember what happened in 2019 when your BPD MIL wanted to move onto your property.

Thanks for this update. Certainly quite interesting to read how things have developed since then. It is good that you worked on setting and defending your boundaries, protecting and preserving your own well-being is crucial

It is unfortunate though that you are also dealing with how your husband deals with his mother. Do you feel like he really acknowledges that your mother exhibits BPD traits?

By changing your end of the relationships, by focusing on changing your own behaviors and responses, you are definitely changing the relationship dynamics with both your BPD MIL and husband.

The Board Parrot

[pursuingJoy]

Thanks Kwamina. I'm not sure what I would have done had I not found you all and this board. 

It is unfortunate though that you are also dealing with how your husband deals with his mother. Do you feel like he really acknowledges that your mother exhibits BPD traits?

No. He will say that he didn't have the best boundaries with her, and insists that's changed. His truck broke down once and his first instinct was to call her, two hours away. For some reason that impacted him - he was confused and weirded out about why he'd called her.

Our previous marriage counselor advised against telling him about BPD because he was so protective of her. More recently we saw a family counselor (issues with kids) and the new counselor actually felt that it was important to mention it to H. I thought about it and finally worked up the nerve to say, "I think your mom may have Borderline Personality Disorder. It's not her fault, it likely resulted from the trauma she experienced in childhood." I touched on some of the symptoms and how it impacts relationships. He looked at me for a second, then said, "It wouldn't matter if she did. It's my mom." He changed the subject and I didn't pursue it. I haven't brought it up since.

I talk to him about what I learn here and how I use it in all of my relationships. He was interested to learn about the Karpman triangle and appreciates the wisdom in not triangulating. He appreciates boundaries and has been successful in setting them with his ex. I've even overheard him sharing some of what we talk about with his kids, which is cool.

I get the impression that her aging weighs heavily and he feels alone. Who wouldn't? Some days he seems to accept that she and I can't coexist and he enjoys his life. Other days he is really unhappy at everything and falls in with her attitude of "what more does MIL need to do? PJ is never happy." The worst was when part of me believed this. I have a clearer head now. It's a relief to see clearly what's happening and know how to respond. I feel for him - FOG is so unsettling.

[beatricex]

great job PJ

Thanks for the examples, and showing me that this can actually work! 

[GaGrl]

I also would be curious as to what he thought she would be apologizing for. Hmmmmm...

Do you think he would actually approach her to "apologize" to you?

On another note, he could always have her visit and stay at a nearby hotel, right?

[beatricex]

PJ,
I wonder if your MIL was more extreme, like she flat out told her son to divorce you, if it would sink in?

I am in this weird situation, my step daughter is suspected BPD.  She gave her Dad (my husband) the ultimatum that he must divorce me, or "he will never see her or her kids again."

I am kind of glad she's 26 and not too sophisticated (yet).  My Mom is BPD, and you don't "win" by giving this sort of ultimatum, cause it's not fun because it's so over the top and clearly dysfunctional.  You "win" by being somewhat normal, asking for somewhat OK things, like ribs and to spend the night at your dear son's house, even though she knows it irks you his wife, she still pleads.  You win by pitting people against each other, creating drama, and getting everyone emotionally uncomfortable.  You have to create some diversion in order to get your drama fix, you have to be more stealthy about it.  You can't "blow the load" as they say.

The steady drip drip drip is what will drive us crazy, like chinese water torture.  Too bad you can't call your MIL out on it, you can't because her demands seem reasonable.  But as reasonable as they may seem to an outsider WE GET IT.  They are not, because it's a steady drip and we can see it for what it is just like you can.  Hence, boundaries are necessary.

My husband's other daughter, the non, asked "why do you need boundaries with me Dad?"  I am super proud of him, because he takes what I say, applies it and doesn't look back, .  I guess I'm feeling kind of lucky.  Don't know how long it will last, if it doesn't I guess I'll say "it was a good run..."

My fear is he will one day side with his daughter, like your husband sides with his mother, because afterall, that is a very strong and cemented bond, however dysfunctional, that is the "Family script."  Going against a family script is like swimming upstream, it's like trying to run a marathon we haven't trained for.  The odds are stacked against us.

b

[Notwendy]

Going against a family script is like swimming upstream, it's like trying to run a marathon we haven't trained for.  The odds are stacked against us.


This is so true. Sometimes we aren't even aware of the family script, it's automatic. I think it goes both ways too, the pwBPD is used to their commands working for them and probably upset when they don't.

8 hours is a long drive and can get tiring. When faced with a long drive, one solution- something that may not go along with the "family script" but it's stay at a hotel or Airbnb. This was not in the family script with my H's family. His parents stayed with us when visiting- they would have been insulted if there was any other suggestion. ( but that was fine, they aren't abusive)  My H would not consider it. Same for when we visited them but as the kids got bigger, sleeping bags on the floor was not comfortable ( they didn't have enough bed space) and so I suggested a hotel. My H was against it and thought we had insulted them. But we did and it was more comfortable. It was the family script that gave more meaning to the decision not the actual reason which was we needed more/bigger beds.

I used to stay with my parents when visiting but the bed they have for guests isn't comfortable but I would tolerate it for a short time. When my dad went into the hospital for a procedure, I was staying alone in the house with BPD mom for the first time in decades- I was probably never alone with her much before as other family members were there too. The next days of raging, screaming, verbal abuse- it was something I had not seen in years and after that, I decided I would not stay at the house again. I still visit sometimes but stay in a hotel or airbnb so that if she gets dysregulated, I can go to a quiet place.

Your H and his MIL might just consider not staying with you a terrible insult, but then it might also be a boundary to consider if the drive becomes difficult to do in one day.

[pursuingJoy]

I also would be curious as to what he thought she would be apologizing for. Hmmmmm...

Do you think he would actually approach her to "apologize" to you?

His question was laced with exasperation. I didn't get the sense that he was being sincere. He wanted me to give him something to take back to her and didn't like what I gave him.

And she has 'apologized' -
"I'm sorry I'm suuuch a horrible person that you can't even invite me to your house."
"I'm sorry I keep you calling you the wrong name, I've been diagnosed with a memory issue so I can't help it." (she only ever forgot my name, and she started calling me by the ex-wife's name after she started getting mad at me and rekindling her relationship with the ex)

Commercial break: my counselor recently defined a 'three-point' apology. 1. Apologize 2. Explain why it was wrong 3. Share your plan to correct the behavior. Am trying to apply this approach myself.

On another note, he could always have her visit and stay at a nearby hotel, right?

I suggested this last time, and H was offended, so I didn't bring it up again.

The more I think about a hotel, the more it makes me uneasy. It would be like cracking the door on the boundary, if that's a thing. Even if she stayed in a hotel, she'd spend all day at our house, sad that she can't spend the night. H would feel guilty and sad, and would likely feel compelled to ask me, in front of her, if she could spend the night. I would say no, making them both mad. He would drive her to the hotel and he would feel horrible dropping her off, then come home and get angry with me. Win for MIL.

The reason I want day visits is because they would be structured around an activity and have a beginning and an end. She and I do well when there is a plan, an activity and other people around. Things get really tricky when there is open down time and it's just the three of us. This is the visit structure we agreed on in counseling. Maybe H thought it would be temporary?

For a half second I thought about suggesting that I could stay in a hotel if she comes, but yeah no.   That sends all kinds of messages I don't want to send.

Y'all gave me an idea though. In addition to suggesting that his daughter and her bf drive MIL down, what might also work is if H goes up on Friday (2 hr drive) and spends the night at her house. If he went earlier he could help her around the house and run errands. The next morning he could drive her back to our house (another 2 hrs), make ribs and hang out with her, then drive her home (2 hrs). He could either drive back that night or spend another night at her house.

I say he gets upset but I'm really reading anxiety. He seems so anxious about having to tell his mom there is a limit. He and I agreed for 3 years that she wouldn't move in, but he never told her that. He led her to believe, for 3 years, that it was still an option. I guess he couldn't bring himself to tell her? I've seen this pattern in other areas with him.

I wonder if your MIL was more extreme, like she flat out told her son to divorce you, if it would sink in?

The steady drip drip drip is what will drive us crazy, like chinese water torture.  Too bad you can't call your MIL out on it, you can't because her demands seem reasonable.

Exactly, b.   She told him once that she wanted to 'poke' me about something and he didn't say a word to her, just let her do it, then defended her. He insists she's just a little old lady who loves everyone and is lonely, and is a little 'quirky,' although my spidey senses sometimes tingle and I wonder if she isn't pretty hateful to him sometimes. I don't think I've seen the worst of her. I think he has, and has been conditioned to roll with it.

Such a good point about fighting the family system. I don't fight him anymore because it was draining us and giving her power. When she is not dysregulating, we have a great relationship. He just can't keep her voice out of his head.

So sorry you're dealing with the stepdaughter's ultimatums, b. My kids told me the same recently so I'm in your H's shoes. It's been a painful experience but it would violate my values to allow them to decide the outcome of my marriage and relationship with H. I know their demands are unreasonable, and that there is likely so much more going on besides their anger at the stepparent. I'm guessing your husband feels the same way. It is meaningful to me when I hear H say that he trusts me, that he cares about my relationship with them, and when he gives me time to connect with my kids where I can. When I grieve it's hard to feel connected to my husband, he feels me pulling away. As I process the grief it helps me feel connected to him again. Sharing in case this helps you understand your H's side. Mostly just know you're not alone!

[Notwendy]

I like the suggestion of him visiting mother and staying there. It  makes sense- less driving for him, she gets him to herself, he can have his mommy time without you having to see it.

I know this is an issue, but the boundary can be on his visits, not her visits. Like a schedule that relieves the anxiety for both of them. If he has a "once a month" or "once every two months" ( or whatever you are comfortable with ) visit with her, then if she asks for additional ones - the boundary is " not now mom but remember, I will visit you on ____date". So she doesn't feel abandoned.

Face it, she wants to see her son, not you and so why not let the visits be at her place?

Yes, it may feel a bit strange that your H has his mommy time but if it solves the issue of her visitations, it may be the best solution and avoids the triangle dynamics.

[pursuingJoy]

Face it, she wants to see her son, not you and so why not let the visits be at her place?

Yes, it may feel a bit strange that your H has his mommy time but if it solves the issue of her visitations, it may be the best solution and avoids the triangle dynamics.

100%. I call it mommy time in my head when I'm feeling snarky, so I think it's great that you called it that too .

I forget who it was (maybe GaGrl?) who told me to release him to take care of her, he would likely get tired of it anyway. I did and it alleviated pressure and took me out of the equation.

Where I used to resist, he now goes to see his mom as often as he wants to. He took her on a 4 day beach trip. He calls her every day and goes to see her several times a month. I show interest and ask how she's doing, and if they had fun.

Sometimes I get frustrated because he doesn't appreciate all the work I've done. Most of the time I don't expect it, because they're so wrapped up in each other, but once in a blue moon I use SET and in the Truth part I remind him of some of the things I've done and given up to support him and their relationship, and that has been effective.

[Notwendy]

I say he gets upset but I'm really reading anxiety. He seems so anxious about having to tell his mom there is a limit.

I do too. When I do say "no" to her, it's awful. She would explode when she was younger but now as an elderly woman, she gets all waify and hurt and pitiful. It's usually an act, but it's just a horrible feeling to see this elderly person ( feign) suffering. Even if they were not our parent, and we would not be conditioned, it just goes against our own ethical senses.

And the constant pushing- the "drip drip" - I recently visited my BPD mother with the intention of having a nice visit. I did all kinds of nice things for her. I hoped that since we haven't visited for a while due to Covid, she would enjoy the visit too. But each time, she pushes and pushes until I say no to something. On our last day she told me how much the visit upset her. That was it. Not a "thank you for coming, thank you for providing meals" No, just that I upset her.

Had she been a younger person, my reaction would have been to just be angry and leave. But here, in front of me is a frail elderly woman acting hurt in front of me and it's awful to see that. Probably even worse for a male to be considered as hurting an elderly woman. Our culture sees that as horrible. And if she were younger, my instincts would be to say "well if the visits are that upsetting for you, it's best we don't have them" but this would be "abandoning my elderly mother" and that's a horrible thing to do too.

I am not sure this dynamic is something you can successfully fight. It's really hard to say no to my mother. Maybe just designating visitations between your H and his mom- at her place - will make this more manageable. And if ultimately he chooses mom over you, that's tough to deal with, but again, it's his choice to  make.

[Notwendy]

I just read your post about the beach trip with mom.

So here's the reality- he makes his own choices. The boundary is with you. What is your response to his choices?

It's not up to you to facilitate their relationship. You see he doesn't appreciate that.

Personally, I would not intervene at all, let him have his mommy time. Intervention makes you the persecutor in the triangle. If it's excessive- then this is your boundary- do you want to be in a marriage to him and his mom or to him. If he can't let go of his mommy attachment, then unfortunately your decision is to tolerate this or not.

IMHO, a man going on a 4 day beach trip with his mom, calling her every day and visiting several times a month would really bother me. I think it's important to continue a relationship with parents after marriage to some extent but I would not be happy with this much time with mom.

[pursuingJoy]

I do too. When I do say "no" to her, it's awful. She would explode when she was younger but now as an elderly woman, she gets all waify and hurt and pitiful. It's usually an act, but it's just a horrible feeling to see this elderly person ( feign) suffering.

Y'all have helped me understand the intensity of what he feels, and for that, I thank you. Her default is waify/pitiful/sad and it just kills him. I'm less vulnerable because she's not my mom, I haven't been conditioned to care for my own mom that way, and because I understand what's driving her.

She's often conflicted within herself. She desperately wanted to move in with us and have us take care of her, but when we started planning, she found something wrong with every decision.

I'm sad that your mom can't appreciate all of your thoughtful efforts to love her and cheer her up. I understand why and even have compassion for her, but it still makes me sad for you, and for her - imagine how it might feel if she could accept and absorb your love for her. You're a great daughter.

IMHO, a man going on a 4 day beach trip with his mom, calling her every day and visiting several times a month would really bother me. I think it's important to continue a relationship with parents after marriage to some extent but I would not be happy with this much time with mom.

It weirds me out and annoys me. Does it violate my values? I guess, but if they do it outside of my view, I'm able to let them access each other with minimal annoyance. So, basically I have limits to what I can handle. I've also seen the benefits of it - they've both calmed down, and he sometimes expresses frustrations with her. I had to quit resisting for him to accept that his mom is a lot to deal with.

My feeling of safety in my home and my time with my H are where I can and do draw the line. She's not going to spend the night here, and he doesn't visit her on our weekends alone. Those are my boundaries.

And if ultimately he chooses mom over you, that's tough to deal with, but again, it's his choice to  make.

It is, and I understand that as his mom's health gets worse, this may become my reality. In a panic, if she experiences a health crisis, he may move her in without my consent. She may move down here and the drip-drip will intensify and I'll have to experience more of their dysfunction. Both will lead to disaster.

[Notwendy]

I am so sorry. I too face the pressure/threat from my mother to move closer to me. It's really the happiness fantasy but her unhappiness is hers no matter where she is. I have had to have a tough boundary with this which results in her presenting herself to others as the victim. "My horrible daughter won't let me move near her".

There's no way I want to deal with her constant demands. She'd like nothing better than for me to be reduced to her doormat/slave while tolerating her abuse. Fortunately my H agrees- he doesn't want her here either as he's seen how she treats me.

From your H's point of view, giving in is easier. Likely he wants to have both: Placate her and still have you.

I am not trying to stress your marriage but I know this must feel bad, and something to bring up in counseling for your own sake.

[pursuingJoy]

It's really the happiness fantasy but her unhappiness is hers no matter where she is.

Well put. This. It's a relief to talk to others who can explain what I see. I'm glad you're holding your boundary firmly.

There's no way I want to deal with her constant demands. She'd like nothing better than for me to be reduced to her doormat/slave while tolerating her abuse.

And yet, you have a soft heart, and a conscience, and you love her. Does anyone else help your mom? I think I remember you talking about finding support services for her.

My MIL moved to a city where all of her family lives - 3 siblings and their families and several cousins. We all talked about how it would give her more social time, more logistical support. At first it did but as I suspected, I now only hear about how lonely and sad (and lonely, and sad) she is.  I've suggested alternative services - uber for a ride to the pharmacy or a grocery delivery service. She turns them all down for one reason or another.

From your H's point of view, giving in is easier. Likely he wants to have both: Placate her and still have you.

For sure. Right now we've found a doable middle ground - I leave him to do what he feels he needs to, and I protect my red-zone boundaries without apology.

This will become VERY complicated if she moves here. Together they will challenge every boundary. It's SUCH a bad idea for her to move here. This only works now because of the distance. 

[Notwendy]

My mother has home helpers who she complains about.  Staff changes frequently as she carries on drama with them. Still, it's better that they help her- tstahey are the professionals and I am not and they are less easily manipulated. She also has many friends with whom she gets along with better than me. It's really better that she stays with her support system there. She also has extended FOO but she hides any issues from them. They think she's the greatest but she doesn't ever admit to needing help to them and they assume she's doing well and she keeps this image up with them.

When I point out that her entire support system is where she lives, she immediately gets angry and dismisses them. Her fantasy about moving closer to me is to "see her grandchildren" but the reality is-they are grown and live on their own, and live a distance from me. The fantasy of my kids visiting her all the time is an illusion. Her happiness fantasy would not be fulfilled by moving.

Does your MIL's constant need to see his mother ever bother him? I have done work on codependency and I like the description of it as an addiction. All addictions serve to relieve the person of uncomfortable feelings. Drugs, alcohol, shopping, gambling- they all do that. Codependency is an addiction to people. Your H is not actually addicted to his mother, but his behaviors with her. He uses meeting her needs to get relief of his fears of saying no to her. His giving in to her is the "substance" that he is addicted to for managing this fear.

To be fair to him -this is not a rational fear to you as an adult but it is rational to a child growing up in this situation. . His mother can not hurt him now.  But as a little boy his mother represented absolute power and children depend on their parents. When his mother got angry at him when he was small, it was absolutely terrifying and these fears are something we adult children of emotionally unstable parents need to work on ourselves. I understand this fear. It makes no sense to you from the perspective of an adult but to grow up with this feels different.

Your MIL won't change but it may help if your H gets some counseling about how to be able to say no to his mother if he needs to. He may not be willing, but it could help.

[Methuen]

Hi PJ,

I’m in awe of how well you stayed in the moment, and managed that dialogue surrounding the ribs and the overnight visit your H wanted your mom to come  for.

Sometimes in the moment I have done really well too, and other times my reptilian brain takes over and the fear precludes rational thinking.  In those moments  I have managed, but usually think of what I should have  or could have  said, afterwards.  At any rate, you managed a difficult situation really well.  Well done, and thanks for sharing your story about how effective boundaries can work when we use them. 

[Methuen]

It is, and I understand that as his mom's health gets worse, this may become my reality. In a panic, if she experiences a health crisis, he may move her in without my consent.

PJ I am in your H’s shoes.  Some years ago, my mom pressured us intensely to have her move in with us. OMG the stories.  Anyways, we resisted .  She pushed back. Wow.

Thank goodness we resisted.  We would have been her slaves.  It’s her constant attention seeking behavior.  Like I said in a thread on another post, I believe the enmeshment comes from the emptiness inside them.  To fill the emptiness, they constantly seek attention to feel validated.  What your H probably gets from this is feeling needed.  It’s  his role, and he fulfills it.  Fear of the consequences for not fulfilling this role probably also motivates him.  The problem is that her emptiness or need for attention is a black hole that can never be filled, because the root of the problem is never addressed.  Boundaries, as you know, are the only way to navigate this, and not become a slave.  It is troubling that you have to live with the worry that one day he will move her into your house without your consent. If I had moved my mother into our house…well there just are no words for that outcome.  Loss of autonomy as a person, loss of any quality of life.  24/7 chaos.  Loss of a marriage, even if H stayed in the house.  I pray this never happens to you. 

On a more hopeful note, we resisted, even though it was difficult.  That was about 6 years ago.  Mother lives independently in her own house which she loves.  She is frail, and has a litany of really complex health problems.  Her safety is at risk as a result of her own choices.  She refuses to wear a Lifeline, which is on her bedside table.  She refuses assisted living which she qualifies for and was offered. We supprt her, with boundaries for ourselves.  At a recent Dr appt ( I drove her), she was asked to write out any sentence 10 times. She wrote “I am happy”.

Complicated, and debatable.

I am happy we use boundaries with her.

[pursuingJoy]

His giving in to her is the "substance" that he is addicted to for managing this fear.

To be fair to him -this is not a rational fear to you as an adult but it is rational to a child growing up in this situation.

Your MIL won't change but it may help if your H gets some counseling about how to be able to say no to his mother if he needs to.

Really good insight into how he's feeling Notwendy, thanks for sharing. I really like the happiness fantasy idea.

A friend once said I was being used as a meat-shield. He has always chosen to live away from his mom and blames the distance on something other than simple choice. He got a girl pregnant and joined the army and moved away from home at 17. He moved 10 hrs away to support his wife, he felt compelled to support her as she pursued her education. He stays married to people that don't like his mom. We now live 2 hrs away and he tries to make it my fault that he can't see his mom. Ha! I support every effort he makes. Is she moving in? Nah. Doesn't mean he doesn't have my support to go see her, or even bring her to our house, within a very few limits.

My mom visited us last weekend. She is an easy guest and game for whatever we have planned. I was dreading it, though, because I knew it would trigger a series of requests from H. Sure enough, he popped the question about his mom coming down for ribs. Then yesterday, I was talking about Mom selling a house and how happy I was that she was investing the money for her retirement, as she doesn't have a retirement plan through her job. Conversation:

H: "Well, your mom is always welcome to come live here."
Me: "I love my mom but I don't want her living here. I don't think she'd even be happy, all of her friends and family are up north."
H: "Well I just think it's important to care for family when they get older."
Me: "Aging is not for the faint of heart, for sure, but Mom has a lot of family that check up on her and make sure she's ok, plus my two brothers. I will help where I can too."
H: "It's not easy to get old especially when you're alone."
Me: "I agree. Thankfully mom isn't alone."

We weren't talking about my mom, and in saying she was welcome, he was pointing out that I said his mom WASN'T welcome. It's a conversation we have a few times a month.

[pursuingJoy]

What your H probably gets from this is feeling needed.  It’s  his role, and he fulfills it.  Fear of the consequences for not fulfilling this role probably also motivates him.  The problem is that her emptiness or need for attention is a black hole that can never be filled, because the root of the problem is never addressed. 

Thanks for sharing this M. This lines up with what I see - the black hole omg yes.

 I wonder, too, if he doesn't already know he can't make her happy. I just can't help but wonder why his life choices keep taking him away, why he hasn't dropped everything to go take care of her. On some level he knows he needs distance, he just can't be seen as the one who chooses it. As long as it's blamed on something or someone else, they can sustain their alliance to each other and hate the person who's keeping them apart (in this case, me).

Some days I worry about him moving her in, but if he did, it would be because he's at a very low place and vulnerable emotionally. Other days, I think a big part of him finds the visits and her negativity draining, and dreads her constant excuses for why she can't do this or that. Almost like he feels smothered then resents it, then kicks himself for resenting it because, you know, MOM.

Notwendy you mentioned counseling. Our marriage counselor suggested individual counseling, strongly. He said he didn't want to. Our current family counselor told me it would be a good idea but H is resistant to individual counseling. Mental health in general is a challenge for him. He didn't accept his daughter's ADHD diagnosis for a long time. He says his dad was this way, and that he's far more open than his dad. I believe that.

[Notwendy]

Using you as excuse to blame is classic Karpman triangle. H and his M are in alliance with a common persecutor. H may not want to be the one to say no to his mom. With you as the reason, he doesn't have to, he also doesn't have to be accountable for his own decision. I works for him. Unless you are OK with it, it doesn't work for you, but as long as it works for him, he will continue.

Not that I haven't taken on the "bad guy" role at times, but I also know I am doing it. Sometimes it works for BPD mom to blame me for things. I know she does it. I just think trying to correct it isn't worth the trouble.

I am greatly in favor of individual therapy- if your H won't do it, then do it for you. It can help you even if he doesn't do it. Seems backwards- why don't the ones with the issues get therapy? But if they won't- it can help you to do it.

[pursuingJoy]

Seems backwards- why don't the ones with the issues get therapy?

Right?

I'm a fan of counseling and though I'm not currently seeing anyone individually on a regular basis, I have for many years and will continue. It is so important.

I just think trying to correct it isn't worth the trouble.

Exactly. It's what they need to get by. No skin off my nose because it's not true.

If comments are made directly to me, our friends or any of the kids, I'll find a way to use SET and drop a truth. 

[pursuingJoy]

Soo this conversation came up with H last night. I knew it was coming because he's been dropping comments, not something he does all the time.

Him: I don't understand why you're still holding a grudge. It's been 3 years already (happened in July 2019, so 2 yrs). Why can't you let it go? It's completely unreasonable.
Me: I have limitations, as does your mom. My boundaries are in place for a reason and I'm happy to explain.
Him: I don't want to hear your reasons.
Me: I've been thinking about ways we can make a visit work for your mom. (I made two suggestions.)
Him: I just don't get it, I don't understand. If I understood, I wouldn't resent you.

Later...

Him: You sent her the email and she apologized.
Me: What email?
Him: You sent the email of all the things she'd done wrong.
Me: I only showed that list to you and the counselor. The only email to her was one you sent, asking her not to share our personal information with her friends, and letting her know that we wouldn't be asking her for money anymore. To my knowledge, she didn't respond.
Him: It's been four years, I can't remember everything now.

I'll start a new thread on Bettering as I feel this part really belongs there, just wanted to update here too since you know the history. Sometimes I get so tired of my MIL's influence on my relationship. It's not always like this. I know I have a lot of other things on my mind. I'm setting up an appt with our family counselor. It just sucks right now.