Photos

[johnsang]

My BPD husband goes to great lengths to take photos of himself with the kids without me. This past weekend, we went camping with another family, and he was taking a selfie on the hiking trail we were on with all the other members of the group, except for me. I was slightly behind the group, by about 10 seconds. 

He has literally done this for 15 years, since our oldest child was born.  He made a first year calendar of our son's first year as gifts to the family, and different photos on every month, and I was in one photo in the whole calendar.

Is this a BPD thing?

It makes me feel crazy.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[pursuingJoy]

johnsang this does seem curious. You mentioned in another post that he felt like no one was hearing him. Could it be that he's compensating for feelings of insecurity, or feeling invisible?

BPD's do seem to get louder when they feel they're being forgotten or abandoned. I wonder if this is his way of communicating that?

[formflier]

What happens when you pull out your phone and try to include him?

What happens when you ask to be included?

Best,

FF

[NonnyMouse]

My uBPDw has been doing this for the last 15 months, ever since the demand for a divorce became serious. Also whenever she is facetiming friends and family she makes sure I can't be seen. Since I (re)discovered BPD I've been working on validation, MCing, not JADEing, etc. and in the last couple of months I've been in two or three photos and she briefly showed me to her family on FaveTime. Progress!

I haven't asked to be included, as I think this would be a trigger for  divorce threats.

[johnsang]

FF - I actually do ask him to take photos of me with the children and animals - that's how I make sure I'm documented as being at that event too. He obliges. The photos get taken, but always, always with me prompting.   Of course, I can take selfies too, and I do. It is just something that I've noted and really gets under my skin.

And pursuing-joy: emphatically, yes, on deeper reflection, I feel like it is a way for him to capture that he is a good dad, he has been doing meaningful things, and somehow he needs to make sure he has more photos of himself with the kids than me with the kids or us all together.  Somehow, that validates his insecurities that he isn't a good dad? He has proof! It's in the photos.

Our camping this weekend started out with a very dis-regulated car ride for 2 hours up to the remote camp site with him raging - so these pictures the next day maybe erase that episode for him?  Look at what a good time we all had, when really, I still was certainly reeling from the horrible car ride, and I don't even know what my kids were doing with that experience emotionally.

In some other way, the photos without me also feels very manipulative in regards to the children, as it could skew their perceptions of reflections down the road.  I use to work on Saturdays when the kids were little, and he would make videos of him with the kids playing on the bed or in the kitchen or whatever. Now those videos get taken out occasionally and they are very cute - but feels very deliberate that I'm not in them.  I don't believe this is me being insecure.  There feels something very menacing in this habit.  It feels like he then has control or mind play over the children in our current time - does that make sense?

And nonnymouse - good job with all the hard work you are doing.  you seem to be miles ahead of me in even being able to articulate all those letters "JADEing, MCing" etc.  And your work is paying off.

I just feel tired and deflated currently.  This day, like on many days, I don't want to be the emotionally stable linchpin in the relationship.  I'm really down tonight.

Other days, it is much easier. 

[formflier]

Generally speaking, I would resist finding things to "compete" or "correct" (like the picture thing) in a r/s with a pwBPD.

It sounds to me like you get the pictures you want when you ask.  Probably a good place to put the period on the sentence and move on.

My guess is that if you don't bring it up much for a few months, then ask him to include you more..he will.  If he won't...great time to have a deeper conversation.

Said another way..spend time understanding your own point of view...resist trying to "correct" your husbands (or anyone's).  A lot of energy will be wasted doing this and it's unlikely the r/s will change for the better.

Best,

FF

[pursuingJoy]

I don't believe this is me being insecure.  There feels something very menacing in this habit.  It feels like he then has control or mind play over the children in our current time - does that make sense?

It does make sense - looking back, my ex was really great at having fun with our kids and documenting it. When they were older the kids would pull out the old videos and recall the fun memories. I have very few photos of me with my babies, I was always behind the camera. Later, I was the parent that raised them, made Dr's appointments and school arrangements. Little time for just fun.

You know more that we do, but I'm not sure it's menacing (ie, actively trying to hurt you) as much as it's linked to his insecurity and need to document positive engagements for his own peace of mind and to reflect to the world what a great dad he is. Appreciate the parts that are good (he's spending time with them, and a positive relationship with their dad means a more positive outcome for kids) and also keep your wits about you. Take your own photos and continue to ask to be included in his. I agree with FF that calling your husband on the behavior likely won't be effective.

Keep doing what you're doing and stay aware.

[johnsang]

FF -

I've been mulling over your advice for about a week now. 

Said another way..spend time understanding your own point of view...resist trying to "correct" your husbands (or anyone's).  A lot of energy will be wasted doing this and it's unlikely the r/s will change for the better.

I have to be honest, I was hoping for more empathy and "that sucks" than a mirror onto myself, but the mirror is probably the much more helpful tool, so thank you.

When you say resist trying to "correct" my husband's point of view - how am I trying to correct him?  I'm not sure I understand what you perceive me as trying to correct - him taking more photos of me with the family?  I don't know that I necessarily expect that to change.  It is just such a strange, seemingly subconscious thing that he does that always comes with a sting in my own heart and gets me every time. Like so many of his behaviors, I am so often surprised at "oh, there it is" - even though his behaviors come at me (and the kids) on an almost daily basis. It is one more layer of behavior that I'm processing. 

Understanding BPD (just learned about it as a diagnosis for my husband this March) has given a great deal of context now to these behaviors, and being on this forum has given me a great deal of support, but there is still a lot of insight and learning that I'm doing myself about how to best navigate these tricky situations.  And I also am trying to navigate my own hurt, my own needs, my own hopes and desires while understanding my husband more.

and pursuing joy, I think you absolutely nailed it

You know more that we do, but I'm not sure it's menacing (ie, actively trying to hurt you) as much as it's linked to his insecurity and need to document positive engagements for his own peace of mind and to reflect to the world what a great dad he is.

The difficult thing for me is being empathetic to his insecurity when it comes out in odd behavior.  Rather than being hurt by being excluded in these photos, it would serve me better to see his insecurities and have empathy and understanding of his hurt.  Some days, I don't want to do that.

Often, I just want to be pissed off that he is a jerk. 

[merelytrying]

While my husband's behavior is different, photos are VERY important to him. Since the beginning of our relationship, he's reminded me to take pictures and give them to him. I think for him it's kinda proof (for us or for other people) of things going well. If we had children, he might very well do the same thing your husband does... but since we don't, the pictures have to be of me/us having a good time. It helps reassure him that he's doing a good job as a husband, I guess.

[AugustWest]

This reply is based on my experience but it may help.  The answer seems to be screaming out.  merelytrying it seems like you may have been thinking this, at least a little bit, but I wonder if your hubs behavior is "evidence gathering"?  My exBPD was always gathering evidence so that when she discarded she would have evidence that she was going to bury me with.  She showed everyone she could our texts, photos, blah, blah, blah.  merelytrying, your story hit home with me because of the way my exBPD did that and similar things.  You know, BPD's will never acknowledge your positives and they will broadly announce your negatives.  But it all equals out in the end because it all will be weaponized and used to destroy you.  You won't know it's coming, you won't know it's happening, and you may never ever find out.  Pure evil.

[formflier]

When you say resist trying to "correct" my husband's point of view - how am I trying to correct him?  I'm not sure I understand what you perceive me as trying to correct - him taking more photos of me with the family? 

My take on it is that you appear to believe the picture taking habits of your hubby are not the right ones...they should be different. 

Perhaps another way of looking at it is that you wish he would include you in photos without prompting.

There is always the possibility there are other unresolved conflicts coloring both of your perspectives.

It's interesting you took this as me "holding a mirror" to you.  My primary goal was to show you where your power lies, especially in the arena of conflicts or disagreements.

There is NOTHING...that will frustrate a pwBPD more and cause them to change, than for them to realize their dysfunctional attempts at conflict and no "working"..or "getting to you".

That's really the thrust of my advice to "get the pictures you want" and "put a period there". 

Best,

FF

[pursuingJoy]

The difficult thing for me is being empathetic to his insecurity when it comes out in odd behavior.  Rather than being hurt by being excluded in these photos, it would serve me better to see his insecurities and have empathy and understanding of his hurt.  Some days, I don't want to do that.

Often, I just want to be pissed off that he is a jerk. 

lolll I totally understand. I've felt this way too. The thing is, being pissed off is ineffective. It's a feeling, acknowledge it, but don't sit in it or let it determine your response. The sooner you can get through your emotions about this, the sooner you'll find relief (it won't hurt as much) and discover creative solutions. When opportunities present themselves, you will know how to respond in a way that gets you closer to where you want to be.

I saw way more progress when I quit fighting.

[johnsang]

I really appreciate everyone's input into this small area of my life.  Really, really.

And FF, thank you for your clarification

My primary goal was to show you where your power lies, especially in the arena of conflicts or disagreements.

There is NOTHING...that will frustrate a pwBPD more and cause them to change, than for them to realize their dysfunctional attempts at conflict are not "working"..or "getting to you".

That's really the thrust of my advice to "get the pictures you want" and "put a period there". 

This is pretty profound.  It is very important for me to know where my power lies so I appreciate this insight.

[formflier]

I saw way more progress when I quit fighting.

It takes two to tango.  You have 100% of the power to "stop" the "tango".

This point is related to "the tango".  They want to keep dancing with you really...really badly.

Because of dysfunction, they have a hard time imagining the improvement from a healthier way...so they will "stick to what they know"..which is usually dysfunctional.

So...for the bad dances you can just stop and not fight.  Their "fight" will eventually burn out. 

For the weird stuff...refused to do "that" dance, but instead "pick a dance" and you keep dancing it...even when they refuse.

Hint..they want to dance...so eventually they will likely try.  Next thing you know...you are dancing together in a healthy way.

Wash..rinse...repeat.

Best,

FF

[khibomsis]

FF this was brilliant. Totally brilliant. I have been working the tools for a while now but this is the first time it absolutely clicked for me why they work.Johnsang it takes a lot of effort to turn the tide but small incremental changes add up with time.