Escalation?

[Depression = 72% of members]

  I know it's been a while since I logged on to this forum... but things had been 'status quo' for the last few months. Until last week...

My uBPD husband and I were in the car last week (he always drives), going somewhere unfamiliar. It's always my job to navigate. I got us there without any trouble, but didn't know where to park when we got there and had to call and ask. We understood the directions somewhat differently, and I made the BIG mistake of questioning the direction we were then headed. He got extremely mad and slammed on the brakes really hard (with no one else around). I wound up with whiplash and a mild concussion.

Now up to this point, he has never been physically abusive (other than shoving me to get me out of his way once or twice). It's all been emotional/verbal. So even though this was kind of 'physical abuse once-removed,' I'm concerned. I promised myself long ago that I was not going to be that woman in Oliver who sings "As Long as He Needs Me" and then gets killed by her husband. Nor would I cover it up. So I went to the doctor and told her exactly what happened. Also told my family. And now of course he's mad about that. I can't lie... not only do I believe it's wrong, I'm a really terrible liar! So when he asked me if I told them what happened, I told him the truth.

I'm not really asking you all what I should do, merely asking if you think this is likely to be a trend, or if it's an isolated incident he can learn from. My shoulders are now killing me and I need to stop typing...

[merelytrying]

  I know it's been a while since I logged on to this forum... but things had been 'status quo' for the last few months. Until last week...

My uBPD husband and I were in the car last week (he always drives), going somewhere unfamiliar. It's always my job to navigate. I got us there without any trouble, but didn't know where to park when we got there and had to call and ask. We understood the directions somewhat differently, and I made the BIG mistake of questioning the direction we were then headed. He got extremely mad and slammed on the brakes really hard (with no one else around). I wound up with whiplash and a mild concussion.

Now up to this point, he has never been physically abusive (other than shoving me to get me out of his way once or twice). It's all been emotional/verbal. So even though this was kind of 'physical abuse once-removed,' I'm concerned. I promised myself long ago that I was not going to be that woman in Oliver who sings "As Long as He Needs Me" and then gets killed by her husband. Nor would I cover it up. So I went to the doctor and told her exactly what happened. Also told my family. And now of course he's mad about that. I can't lie... not only do I believe it's wrong, I'm a really terrible liar! So when he asked me if I told them what happened, I told him the truth.

I'm not really asking you all what I should do, merely asking if you think this is likely to be a trend, or if it's an isolated incident he can learn from. My shoulders are now killing me and I need to stop typing...

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

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[Jabiru]

Hi and sorry to hear about that. Definitely take care of yourself and get any needed treatment. For me, I'd let my uBPDw drive and navigate herself if she's unwilling to listen to my navigation. Or drive and navigate myself. If it got to the point where I didn't feel comfortable riding when she's driving, I'd ask to drive or I'm getting a taxi.

Overall, think about what you're comfortable with, what you'll allow, and where your limits are for physical, emotional, and verbal. You have the power to allow this to continue and develop into a pattern or to stop and enforce limits to protect yourself. It may be hard, but it's probably worth it to talk with him about it and your limits.

Now up to this point, he has never been physically abusive (other than shoving me to get me out of his way once or twice). It's all been emotional/verbal.

Are you working towards improving things on the emotional/verbal side?

[formflier]

I'm sorry this happened to you.  What has the Dr said about your symptoms?

What has your hubby said about this incident?

Best,

FF

[merelytrying]

Thanks for replying, folks... I can't seem to remember how to quote things, but:

Jabiru, I don't think I've been good at setting limits for anything. This may be the first time I felt I really made a fuss or put my foot down (for very long, anyway). It doesn't go well when I try. That may be an exaggeration, but I can't think of any examples right now that have gone well. As for the driving... we'll see. I'll try just setting the gps next time and keeping my mouth shut (since he won't let me drive). If that doesn't work, I'll have to take an Uber or something.

And FormFlier, thanks. The doctor offered help if and when I need it, and in the meantime, I have a handout on whiplash and a prescription for something to take for the pain. She just told me to avoid too much mental activity and screens for a couple of days, as far as the concussion went.

The best my husband will say about it is that he's sorry he made a mistake by slamming on the brakes, but it was my fault for antagonizing him. And that we weren't going very fast (frankly, I don't remember how fast we were going, but it was up hill). I quietly sat through a LOT of yelling and accusation before he could calm down enough to admit any fault in the matter. Sometimes he'll admit I'm injured, sometimes not...

Thanks again,

M

[formflier]

How often do things get weird in the car?

It's important to make sure there is not a next time.

Best,

FF

[merelytrying]

How often do things get weird in the car?

It's important to make sure there is not a next time.

I figured the quotes out. :-) But yeah, that's the concerning part... he has major road rage issues anyway, so I always figured that would get me hurt (miraculously, that hasn't been the case so far!). And he's got a hair trigger right now when it comes to my saying the wrong thing, because that's "attacking" him. I didn't respond at all yesterday to his insult in the car, and thankfully he moved on to another subject. And he kinda promised not to slam on the brakes like that again. But I don't have a lot of confidence in that.

He won't let me drive the car, because he's not in control that way and can't "save" me from the other drivers. And I couldn't handle him as a passenger very often, because he's the worst backseat driver ever. That would make me a nervous wreck as well...

So I don't know what the answer is, but I'm starting to think I'll have to do something more drastic (like maybe an ultimatum for him to get help) in the not-to-distant future. I worry about where we're headed.

[formflier]

Why not let him know either you drive (to protect you from future whiplash) or you travel separately.

No big deal either way, say it in a neutral manner...

After all...you really shouldn't be in the mode of trying to "control" his transportation choices...and he should "control" yours either (especially if they result in you being injured)

So...?

How does that sit with you?  Is protecting your health really "drastic"?

Best,

FF

[merelytrying]

Why not let him know either you drive (to protect you from future whiplash) or you travel separately.

You make that sound so simple... but I assume you know that'll be a big fight. Every time. And I'm neither emotionally strong enough to do that every time we need to go somewhere, nor physically healthy enough to be able to drive every time. Most of the time, I can't even get him to agree to run errands or exercise without me. Yesterday, my friend described me as 'the delicate type that controlling men seek out.' Much as I dislike that, it's probably true.

After all...you really shouldn't be in the mode of trying to "control" his transportation choices...and he should "control" yours either (especially if they result in you being injured)

I can't control any of his choices... but I'd like to be able to discuss our choices/opinions and have a difference of opinion now and then. He's not ok with that. With the exception of food choices and medical choices (as long as they aren't expensive ones). In fact, he likes to talk about how magnanimous he is in not trying to restrict me on those things.

[formflier]

There are more important things going on here than your transportation choices.

If he really is "allowing" you to make some choices, then you need to be deliberate about upsetting that apple cart.  You need to be even more deliberate about making sure that when YOU decide to take back those choices..you keep them, regardless of what he does.

Here is the thing..it actually is "that simple". 

Notice I didn't give you a choice where you get what you want and he is happy and does NOT dysregulate.   He will absolutely want to fight with you. 

It's up to you whether or not you engage in that.

It is that simple. 

If there is something I'm missing here, please let me know.

Best,

FF

[merelytrying]

Ok, I see your point... I guess I just wish that I had an good option. But I know that such a thing doesn't exist. I frequently say 'you have to pick your battles' about the things that I let slide... I just don't usually say it about the things that I *don't* let slide. :-) For the time being, though, I need to stick with what I already said... which was something like "If anything like this ever happens again, I can't ride with you any more."

[formflier]

I think you need a "tighter" boundary.

"Anything like that"...is open to interpretation.

better:  "I won't discuss emotional topics (good or bad) in the car."  (note..this is not just with him). 

enforcement:  (something for you to be clear in your head...but don't tell him).  I will ask for time out on this conversation.   If that is denied, I will be asked to be let out of the car and find my own way.  If that is denied I will call 911.


How often do things get weird in the car?  Once a month?  Remind me again what pushed this one "over the edge"?

Best,

FF

[merelytrying]

I think you need a "tighter" boundary.

"Anything like that"...is open to interpretation.

better:  "I won't discuss emotional topics (good or bad) in the car."  (note..this is not just with him). 

I guess I meant (and possibly said) that if I get hurt physically again, I won't ride with him. But with his reckless driving, that could be a tough one too. The 'emotional topics' limit sounds good, but it's awfully hard to predict what's going to be an emotional subject. After all, we weren't discussing anything emotional at the time. I just questioned the direction he was going.

Emotional subjects in the car are more likely to be damaging to me than to him... there has been more than one time when I really would have jumped out of a moving car if he hadn't agreed to stop yelling at me about something or another. But that hasn't happened since I figured out the BPD factor, and I try not to argue anymore. I don't always succeed, but I try!

How often do things get weird in the car?

How weird? Things are always scary in the car. He's always going to do something unsafe, and he always gets angry at other drivers. And he gets angry at me for interrupting him while driving or for being too quiet. For asking him questions or (less frequently) for not asking him questions.

enforcement:  (something for you to be clear in your head...but don't tell him).  I will ask for time out on this conversation.   If that is denied, I will be asked to be let out of the car and find my own way.  If that is denied I will call 911.

That is a really scary scenario for me... because I know he won't let me out of the car, based on those previous times I asked. And calling 911 seems like a dangerous step to take in the car (since the police have never been involved). I think the most I would do would be to refuse to get back in the car once we get wherever we're going... safer to take a stand outside of the car.

[formflier]

I think the most I would do would be to refuse to get back in the car once we get wherever we're going... safer to take a stand outside of the car.

So...we agree there are things he could do where you would NEVER get back in a car driven by him?  Do I understand this correctly?

Best,

FF

[Skip]

I think I would wait until this cools and nicely tell you are fearful for both of your safety in the car. I would just start driving in two cars more often. Keep reminding him that it is not personal or a fight.

If he is not a sound driver, you really have to do this.

[merelytrying]

So...we agree there are things he could do where you would NEVER get back in a car driven by him?  Do I understand this correctly?

Yes.

I think I would wait until this cools and nicely tell you are fearful for both of your safety in the car. I would just start driving in two cars more often. Keep reminding him that it is not personal or a fight.

If he is not a sound driver, you really have to do this.

Thanks, Skip. While it would be easier if we had two vehicles, I can still make other arrangements. But he will never admit he's not an excellent driver.

And thanks to you too, FF. I wish I were better at all this. He's plowed over me and my boundaries for so long that it's really hard to be firm at this point.

[formflier]

It's not about convincing him of anything.  It is about informing him of the choices you are making.  Gentle reminders that it is not personal.

He wont like it, but you will be drastically safer.

How long does it take to calm from a conflict to have a productive conversation.

Best

FF

[merelytrying]

It's not about convincing him of anything.  It is about informing him of the choices you are making.  Gentle reminders that it is not personal.

I'll try to think of it that way. Whether he understands it or not...

How long does it take to calm from a conflict to have a productive conversation.

Sometimes an hour, sometimes 6 hours, sometimes days. And very often at that point I'm afraid to try to have a productive conversation for fear that it'll set him off again.

If things still seem calm this evening, perhaps I can bring up the 'emotional subjects in the car' issue again.

[formflier]

How long has it been since you have driven a car?  What were the circumstances for that to happen?

Best,

FF

[merelytrying]

How long has it been since you have driven a car?  What were the circumstances for that to happen?

Sorry, I guess I was unclear! I drive the car during the day while he's working. It's only when we're together that I'm not allowed to drive. He used to tolerate my driving for 5 minutes when I was taking him to the train station (short distance). But he's been working from home for over a year now, so that hasn't been necessary. And I drove home once because he really wasn't feeling good. And maybe twice on a trip he let me drive for 30 minutes or so. That's it.

[Woolspinner2000]

Merelytrying,

I've not yet had a chance to say hi to you, so greetings and welcome! 

I can SO relate to what you're going through and feeling. My exH made the driver's seat in the car essentially a seat of power. He would tell me that if I talked to him, it distracted him, and therefore he said he couldn't concentrate on his driving. That kept me quiet and feeling extremely unsafe every time I rode with him. If he missed a turn, and I asked about it, he'd tell me I wasn't to tell him how to drive. I did learn that I needn't give him any driving instructions (which I shouldn't have done in the first place I now know), so I would silently sit and let him go wherever he wanted to go. He figured out he was going the wrong way eventually.

That didn't fix the problem of my being terrified everytime we rode in the car together though. He regularly rode along the center line and sometimes crossed over it, or he'd drive off the edge on the other side. Since I wasn't allowed to talk with him in the car, and I most certainly was not allowed to drive him (Heaven forbid! I would pay for that when I did), it was a pretty uncomfortable place to be. I imagine you feel super on edge when you're in the car with your H too.

There was a point of change that came for me, when my fear for my own life suddenly took precedence over the anger he would (and did) show if I started driving separately. I guess that's what changed things for me. I could've been hurt quite badly because of a choice he made while driving one night when we had 6" of snow on the roads. That was the end of my riding with him.

Did it make it easier for me? No, but for the first time I made a choice for me. I wanted to live, to grow old and play with my grandkids. That's what helped me over the fear of his reaction, the sudden realization that I had value. I couldn't change him or how he drove. I could chose to stay alive and safe because I finally saw myself as having value.

It took me quite some time to get to this place of decision. How long have you been struggling with what to do?

  an extra hug for you today
Wools

[merelytrying]

Wools, that totally sounds familiar! And nice to meet you. :-)

My husband frequently drives over the center line, too... especially on windy roads where we can't see around the corner. He says it's bad for the car to stay in our lane!  And yes, he definitely makes me suffer when I drive him, too. I know I'm not the world's best driver, but I also know I'm a better driver than he is. I've only had a couple of other people as passengers up here, but they both told me what a good driver I was. Made me wonder what they'd been told about my driving...

So nice to know there are others who experience the same things! This time is just leaving me wondering how much longer I can take all of this. My mental health is really suffering, to say nothing of the potential physical dangers.

-Mt

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi again, merelytrying, 

I bet we could write a book together about the things we've endured in a car with our H driving. Scary, and perhaps we'd finally be able to  about how similar they are and roll our eyes.

Just like I wanted to be safe, I can tell from all you've shared that you also desperately want to be safe. You haven't exactly said it in words, but you have said it. Can you guess how I know? By your fear.

If you stand back as an observer and pretend it is someone you care about sitting in the place where you usually do, and you watch the car driving down the road, what would you say to the passenger? You can hear that there is fighting and yelling going on too. What do you feel for the passenger, and how would you advise her? Don't worry that you have to say that to yourself yet, but I want to encourage you to look outside of yourself, if you're willing to stretch a bit, and tell me what you'd advise your closest friend if she were sitting there?

It took me a long time, over 30 years in fact, to make the change I did. I well understand the struggle within you.

Stay safe; be safe.

 
Wools

[formflier]

There was a point of change that came for me, when my fear for my own life suddenly took precedence over the anger he would (and did) show if I started driving separately. I guess that's what changed things for me. I could've been hurt quite badly because of a choice he made while driving one night when we had 6" of snow on the roads. That was the end of my riding with him.

Did it make it easier for me? No

Hey Wools,

When you get a moment, I'd be interested in "hearing" how some of this went down.

I said x, he did Y...that kind of thing.

Sounds like you had two cars, which unfortunately isn't available in this situation.

How long has it been since you have ridden with hubby?

Best,

FF

[merelytrying]

Thanks again, Wools 

Your last message almost made me cry... It's so nice to know that so many others here understand. I would indeed desperately love to feel safe. Or rather, I would desperately love to not be fearful all the time! I'm trying to do a little better at standing up for myself in general (like leaving the room if there's too much irrational yelling), but it's so hard to think like that all of the time. I'm so tired...

Anyway, as to not having a second vehicle... I can find other ways of getting places if I need them. I have access to certain disability ride services. It's not what I would prefer, of course, but I think it'd make him less angry if he got to drive the car. A lot of that would be easier if we had set plans for which I could schedule rides. But he never decides until the last minute that we're going somewhere. And there would be a lot fewer places we needed to go if he'd just be willing to run errands without me.  If I won't agree to go somewhere with him, he usually just doesn't go at all. And then blames me, of course.

[formflier]

And there would be a lot fewer places we needed to go if he'd just be willing to run errands without me.  If I won't agree to go somewhere with him, he usually just doesn't go at all. And then blames me, of course.

This is incredibly important nuance (or maybe it's not nuance).

So...he says (without any warning) "Hey...I want to go to (store) and shop for new bath rugs"

You say:  "I'm sure you will pick out good ones...thanks for noticing we needed new bath rugs."

He says:  (please give some examples of what this looks like)

And perhaps more nuance.

What happens if  you way "babe...right now doesn't work for me, but I'd love to plan something for after dinner..maybe 7pm."?

I'm asking all these questions because I don't think "this" is about the car...the car happens to be something he has grabbed onto.  (FF tentative theory)

Best,

FF

[Woolspinner2000]

FF, we were invited to our neighbor's house for a Super Bowl party quite a number of years ago. There was so much snow on the ground and more coming down so fast that they had a snow emergency for no one to be on the road except emergency vehicles. DH said we'd drive although it was literally down our street and around the corner. If we walked on a normal day, it would only take 2 or 3 minutes.

I remember wondering if we should be driving at all, but they lived so close by. We drove down the street and stopped at the main road. There was a car coming on my right, but DH decided to pull out anyway. The problem was that he couldn't get any traction with the roads being unplowed, and the harder he tried to move, the more the tires spun. By now he was in the middle of the road. I could see the headlights getting closer all the time and knew the vehicle coming towards me wouldn't be able to stop. It would be my side of the car that would be hit. Somehow we made it across in time.

I don't remember what I said if anything in those moments when time seemed to stand still. I do remember some of what I said when I got out of the car. I was so angry, but I know that anger is just a surface feeling for what the real feelings are. I was scared to death. I had trusted he would keep me safe, and he chose to pull out in front of that car. I told him he could have waited for that car to pass, and he made a bad choice to try and cross in front of it. I told him that I would've been the one injured, not him, and that was the last time I would ride in the car with him driving. He acted rather sheepish and didn't have much to say. I typically said very little to him that was confrontational, so I'm sure he knew he didn't make a good choice that night.

There we're many times over the next few years when he would make comments to me about not riding with him. Once or twice I asked if he remembered why I made that choice, and he did. He would say things like "ladies ride in the passenger seat and if they sit in the driver's seat, I don't know what they are called." He actually told.our daughter that, and she pretty much had smoke coming out of her ears. If he saw a woman driving and a man sitting in the passenger seat, he'd say, " that man had better watch out because his wife will be controlling him next." On rare occasion he would ride if I drove, very rare. Usually it was of we were going to see the grandkids 2 hours away because he didn't want to waste the gas and drive two cars. Once he told me and some of his guy friends that if he rode with me on the 4 hour trip to Chicago, since I was acting like a man, I would need to open his car door for him, pump and pay for the gas and pay for all the meals. I told him I would go by myself, and I did. I had tried to be polite and invite him but was sorry I did.

Our marriage counselor said it was too bad that DH made the driver's seat of the car a power and control issue. It really was very sad. I stuck with my decision though and felt so much safer driving myself. Our kids also never felt safe riding with him. Once they were adults they also chose to not ride with him.

Sorry this was so long!

Merelytrying, I will come back tomorrow and respond to your post. 

Wools

[merelytrying]

FF, believe it or not, your questions have been haunting me since I read them, and I can't go back to sleep. Either I still have a mild concussion or the stress is causing me to block out a lot of upsetting details. I cannot remember much in the way of example.

So...he says (without any warning) "Hey...I want to go to (store) and shop for new bath rugs"

You say:  "I'm sure you will pick out good ones...thanks for noticing we needed new bath rugs."

He says:  (please give some examples of what this looks like)

It's more like...

He says: "Get your shoes on and get ready to go."

I say: "Where are we going?"

He says: "We need to go to the grocery store and maybe some other places."

I say: "Is this something you could do without me?"

He says: "No."

(Any additional questions will either get him mad or be met with silence.)

What happens if  you way "babe...right now doesn't work for me, but I'd love to plan something for after dinner..maybe 7pm."?

Sometimes he will ask what time I can be ready to go, if it's on a weekend. Otherwise, if I disrupt his plans, he will either say "Well, tell me when you're ready," and go fume in the other room, or he'll say "I don't control time, dear" and repeat the request for me to get ready. If I'm feeling particularly tired or stubborn that day, and say "I really don't feel like I can go just now," he'll either get mad and we won't go anywhere, or he'll get more mad and intimidate me into going. The 'time' statement is a favorite of his. Applies to all kinds of situations.

He's even more unpredictable if we're potentially going somewhere with other people (like church or a social event). I'm asked by others if we're going, and I never know until he says the 'get your shoes on' line... then I rush around trying to get out the door. I inevitably forget something, for which he berates me in the car. He won't let me go somewhere like that without him, because that would make him look bad. And he won't go without me, because he'd have to spend the whole night answering people asking where I am. I'm therefore hardly ever at my best when we get where we're going.

What I'm realizing when it comes to the car situation is that I'm equally frightened of being in the car with him and of the verbal abuse in general. It's very hard to decide which is the lesser evil.

But hopefully now I can go back to sleep. :-)

Thanks to all for being helpful...

-Mt

[formflier]

(Any additional questions will either get him mad or be met with silence.)
 

So...is it ok for him to be mad or silent?  Perhaps let him solve those things.

Think that would work?

Best,

FF

[merelytrying]

So...is it ok for him to be mad or silent?  Perhaps let him solve those things.

As opposed to what? Nothing I can do about those things... but nothing gets solved that way. It just means I have no alternative except to do what I'm doing. Which is to give up and put my shoes on and go.

[formflier]

As opposed to what? Nothing I can do about those things... but nothing gets solved that way. It just means I have no alternative except to do what I'm doing. Which is to give up and put my shoes on and go.

So...this if FF living in my head a bit.  But it appears to me that...  (making sure I have the motivations and roles correct)

1.  Your hubby likes to control you on short notice for trips and driving.  His anger is the implicit and likely sometimes explicit threat for non compliance (if you say no).

2.  Rather than creating a situation where your hubby deals with his own feelings of anger, it appears to me that you accede to his whims in an attempt to keep "the bad hubby" (his anger) away.

So...it seems that you are participating in training your hubby to understand that his anger gets him what he wants (you going on short notice trips).

Given that his anger gets him what he wants, I'm struggling to understand any motivation on his part to do something else..perhaps something that you might enjoy.

Do you see a motivation for him to change as things stand now?

Best,

FF