Do families ever heal?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I’ve been married 47 years and have decided to stay in my marriage with BP husband. But 2 grown sons won’t have a relation with me anymore. That includes the grandkids that are my whole life. I’ve been on antidepressants for a couple of years, 2 kinds in fact. I still so down.  I’m thinking of going off them because I figure just is just the way I should be. I’ve been doing the things to help with depression like socializing with friends, exercising, keeping a good sleep schedule and things like that.  I really don’t see a future, when your my age it’s all downhill from here anyway. Now I don’t have my family that I love so much

[gypsyJedi]

I’ve been married 47 years and have decided to stay in my marriage with BP husband. But 2 grown sons won’t have a relation with me anymore. That includes the grandkids that are my whole life. I’ve been on antidepressants for a couple of years, 2 kinds in fact. I still so down.  I’m thinking of going off them because I figure just is just the way I should be. I’ve been doing the things to help with depression like socializing with friends, exercising, keeping a good sleep schedule and things like that.  I really don’t see a future, when your my age it’s all downhill from here anyway. Now I don’t have my family that I love so much

[Notwendy]

Hi Jedi, that's an interesting question and it probably plays out in different ways.

Do families ever heal? Was yours ever not broken?

My father chose to stay with my mother. Eventually he got ill and after a long illness, he passed away. I loved my father, but the cost of that relationship was to tolerate my BPD mother's verbal and emotional abuse. While that was difficult, what was also even more difficult was to see her verbally and emotionally abuse my father.

Before I understood the dynamics in a BPD relationship, I perceived him as a victim of her unreasonable behavior. It was later that I understood his part in the dynamics as her enabler and co-dependent. The relationship was a combination of both of them.

His role was to be her emotional caretaker and to be of support for her and do things for her. As his illness progressed and he was unable to fill that role as well, her BPD behavior escalated. Being concerned about him, I tried to intervene. That was naive. I did not understand the Karpman triangle dynamics. His role was rescuer. When I intervened he jumped in to "rescue" my mother and became angry at me. I began to have boundaries with my mother and she didn't like that.

Then, he sent me an email, very similar to your question.

"I just want us to be a happy family again".

Were we a happy family? The cost of our being an intact family was for us to tolerate my mother's abuse, and be her enablers. Was I happy about how she treated me? How would my parents even know that? They didn't ask. Their concern was if my mother was happy.

I also had boundaries with them and my children. There was no way I would allow her to treat them like she treated her children. Maybe she would not have done that, but I was going to protect them. They did see my parents, they actually had a good relationship with my father, but I did not leave my mother unsupervised with them.

I don't think your children have removed themselves because they don't love you. I think it's because they have to protect themselves from the dynamics because it is hurtful to see this between you and their father and they don't want to be a part of the triangle dynamics. Maybe it's also because this involved emotional pain for them.

What heals a family? My own personal opinion is that truth heals. An honest explanation and an amends for starts. If your kids are grown, they don't need "parenting" but they do need to be treated like individuals with their own minds and hearts and not as extensions of their parents which is common in families with a PD person. I think they'd wish to see you healed emotionally and their father too, but probably know that for him, it's not likely.

This doesn't mean you were a bad parent. I know you did a lot of good for your children and you love them. In fact you are probably a good mother to them. My father was a good parent too. My father did double duty as a parent, he did a world of good for us and I credit him for that. I loved him dearly. His bond with my mother was stronger than I understood and apparently he was willing to take on the cost of that relationship as you appear to do as well. However, this does not mean your children wish to make the same choice.

Do families ever heal? I think emotional healing is individual and that the individual has to work on this. You can do this too. If you are struggling with depression, please get counseling. If you are co-dependent, you can get help for this. Your emotional healing might open the door for repair of the relationship with your children, or it may not, but you would be better off with it. Take care of you. It's clear you are hurting. Your children don't want to be hurtful. I think they are hurting too.

[Bluejay12]

Hi Jedi,
I can’t tell you enough that you are not alone.  We have a BPD daughter married to a narcissist.  About 2 years ago my daughter launched a grenade in our family.  We are seniors who adored our grandchildren.  But they have used them, repeatedly now, as weapons.  (4 yo and 9 mo old).  We, too, have given up trying.  With no legal recourse, we continue to be unable to see our grandchildren.  They have  used other family members as well.   Flying monkeys.  In our minds,  BPD is only half illness but also half evil.  My husband turns 84 this November.  So unfair.  Stay strong.  We do feel your pain

[gypsyJedi]

NotWendy, thank you so much for your reply. I appreciate hearing an adult child’s perspective. Maybe your comment that I was a good mom is applicable. I’ve also tried to be a non interfering mother in law. I spoke to my done for the first time in 3 months. I said I hoped we’d get to the point where we all could have a good time together. He said the old times weren’t always so good. Ever since I’ve been convinced the last 20;years have been a farse. Our visits were dreaded Maybe I’ve been just tolerated all this time because our grandkids are crazy about us and we are crazy about them  Yes I’ve been incredibly depressed. I’ve battled depression on and off my adult life, maybe your dad has too. I didn’t realize there is a diagnosis for my husbands behavior. Maybe I would have insisted on therapy instead if changing his behavior by altering mine. I’ve been on anti depressants for 3 months. I’ve seen a therapist about 5 times so far. But I still cry all the time and can’t seen a happy future or at least one I want to be a part of. I know it would hurt the few people to seem to care about me if I killed myself. So I’m just going to resign from society

[ForeverDad]

So I’m just going to resign from society

Can you instead resign from the problem marriage?  Even if you decide not to go so far as to divorce, a separation would be a measurable improvement.

[Notwendy]

I said I hoped we’d get to the point where we all could have a good time together. He said the old times weren’t always so good. Ever since I’ve been convinced the last 20;years have been a farse.pro


This is similar to the " I want us to be a happy family again" request from my father.

What your son said is a possible door opener, if you are able to listen and not get defensive because that invalidates his experience.

"the old times were not so good".

Saying the past 20 years is a farce is all or none thinking. I understand that depression makes it hard to process this kind of information. I mention that my father in many ways was a good father- to remind you that even that your son's experiences were probably not all bad. But something was. Can you hear that?

None of the bad negates the good I attribute to my father. But what held our family together was the denial of my mother's behaviors and my father enabled them. Our "being an intact happy family" depended on denying them.

I understand you have likely experienced the worse of your husband's abuse, but did he abuse your sons too?

Our visits were dreaded.

Have you asked him why? I will be completely honest in that I also dreaded the visits in ways, but my kids also were crazy about my father and they had a good relationship. Why did I dread the visits? Because they also involved my mother's emotional drama. I am sure you recall raising young children and they want constant attention, especially when grandparents visit. Young parents are tired!  Adding any emotional needs to this could be overwhelming. Note that I did not say I dreaded seeing my parents- I did want to see them-it's the family dynamics that made it difficult.

Your sons have spouses. How do they feel about the visits.  Walking on eggshells was a family activity. It wasn't just for my father to do. They may see how this impacts their husbands and not be comfortable with it.

First of all, the depression is difficult and I think healing starts with you. Please continue to work with this- it's so important.

The step to possibly making the visits better for your children, if it is ever to be possible,  is to listen to why the past 20 years "wasn't so great" for them. This may be hard to hear if they were subjected to abuse, but it needs to be heard.

[yeeter]

Thank you Wendy for your insights from a childs perspective.

Gypsy, not quite the same situation but I am also trying to recover from an estranged relationship with my children. 

I have apologized to them that I was not able to give them a better home life.  I just wasnt.  My son responded that 'Dad, it wasnt all your fault'.  (note he didnt say that NONE of it was my fault, just that it was not all on me).  To a large degree he knows and has seen first hand the dynamics and dysfunction.  But I wanted to apologize to him, genuinely, for never being able to figure out how to make it better for him.

Most of my relationship with my daughters has quickly been rewritten once the marriage ended.  They parrot a list of shortcomings from mom when I still had a relationship with them.  I listen (accurate or not).  I validate that it must have been awful and terrible to feel that way.  I apologize for anything I may have ever done that would make them feel unloved.  This does not mean I agree with everything, just that the feelings are valid.  At this stage we have dramatically different memories even (brainwashing works).

Ultimately, I am taking the approach (for better or worse) that I am here.  Available.  That I 'want' to have a positive relationship with them.  That I will listen.  That I will validate their feelings and emotions.  That I will work in whatever way they feel is necessary to rebuild or restart a relationship.

Maybe what this approach means is simply letting go of the past.  They need to get it all out.  Right or wrong.  This is the only way to 'reset' the relationship.  It gives ALL the 'power' to them.  What they choose to do with it is out of my control.

I try to reach out with love on a regular basis.  Hoping that, over time, there will be no new negative experiences to warrant keeping me shut out.  Hoping that there is some underlying pull to engage with a biological parent.

Losing a child is extremely debilitating.  To some degree you will never 'heal'.  Depression is a difficult dynamic to overcome.  A pandemic makes it harder.  I just posted this on another thread and there may be some pieces in it for you to consider.  It was written from an alienation perspective but much of the advice applies to the loss for any reason:

https://karenwoodall.blog/2016/10/08/helping-the-hopeless-caring-for-the-alienated-parent/amp/ 

Get help.  Engage with your T.  Use friends/family.  Socialize.  Exercise.  Eat healthy.  Find positive things in your life to put your focus on.  Post here.  Journal.  Heal.

 

[Notwendy]

Yeeter, I think what you are doing is great.

I understand that sometimes a family member cuts contact because they, themselves, are disordered but I think that's a different situation than a non -disordered child who grew up with a BPD parent. I know for me, and probably many of us, we are distancing ourselves from an abusive situation of some sorts. It's not something we want to do, it's more about feeling it's the best option we have in the situation. For me as well, it has been about protecting my own children from the dynamics.

It's not that we don't want the relationship with a parent- we do, but the relationship we want doesn't seem feasible. Something real, authentic, where we aren't walking on eggshells, and where boundaries are respected. Yeeter, making yourself available for this is a good start.

Jedi- I know your intentions are to do this. I think this starts with self care and working on the depression. I am willing to bet your children would want you to do this too.

[Cat Familiar]

When I was in my early twenties I had to go no contact with my parents due to the disruptive behavior of my mother. She wrote terribly toxic and hurtful letters to me that I had a friend read for me and tell me any important information, because it was too painful to read them myself. She tried to harm my living situation and even wrote to the university and police department, saying that I was a “bad influence” and shouldn’t be living in the local community after I’d graduated. I was working full time and supporting myself, but it wasn’t what she’d hoped, which was that I’d return and live at home again.

As a consequence, I also cut out my dad. They were a package deal. And my dad blamed me for making my mother cry and feel so much anguish.

I think over time, he just got run over by her mental illness. He could isolate himself from it, to a point. But she was so overwhelmingly expressive, angry, venting, rageful. It took a toll on him.

I became the object of blame, since if I’d just been an obedient daughter and returned home instead of trying to live my own life, none of this sorrow would have happened.

I did try and reconnect with my parents, but my dad had become embittered and my mother just wanted to take up where she’d left off.

Years later after my father had died, my mother began a descent into dementia and I had to move her nearby. She still tried to dominate me at times and threatened to “run away” but I persisted and took care of her while trying to hold onto my sanity. It helped that I bought her a separate house.

There were times when I could feel that she truly loved me. In her own way. And now that she’s gone, I know that I really loved her too, and appreciated her care and concern, much of which was misplaced.

It was sad that my dad became so disconnected, but that was his strategy for dealing with a very complex, emotionally unregulated partner. I would have liked to reconnect emotionally with him in later life, but that was not in the cards.

So, to answer your question, *do families heal?* from my point of view, maybe somewhat. Had I been better equipped emotionally and with tools for BPD, perhaps it could have been better.

[Notwendy]

Cat's story reminds me of a brief ( and failed) attempt to go NC with my mother when I was a student.

It was at the suggestion of a counselor at the college as my interactions with my BPD mother were stressful and it was impacting my studies.

I didn't want to cut contact with my father. I would try to meet with him, he'd pick me up and then drive me home to where my mother was waiting.

They were a package deal.

I tried to make peace by being compliant. If only I was "good enough"- to get approval. I set boundaries later and the consequences were that my parents were angry at me. I tried to reconcile with my father, but, he chose to remain angry at me. At this point he was ill. I kept hoping he'd change his mind.

Had I been better equipped emotionally and with tools for BPD, perhaps it could have been better.

I agree and wish I knew how to do better as well.  Eventually as adults we can choose to learn them, but the adult children are puzzled by the dynamics too.

I think it's significant that even the college counselor could recognize the difficulty. It was never my idea to try to cut contact, I would not have thought of that, but she was concerned.

[yeeter]

They were a package deal.

Certainly this is something I would like to change with my children - I would like to dissociate myself from their mother.  At least in some ways.  A separate identity in their minds.

But in reading the original post I am not sure it is the same for gypsy. 

I do like the advice given:  put your own life vest on first.  Depression is a monster and likely needs to be tackled before much progress can be made.  Whether that progress includes reunification or not is just something that will need to play out over time.  BUT - without healing yourself it is unlikely to have much of a chance (and waiting for your kids to return for YOU to heal, as a mechanism for it, provides you no control).  This might also mean, indirectly, redefining a life model that includes satisfaction and happiness without your kids will be an important thing to do.  (a number of implications here, including not defining yourself via a parental identity).

Change is hard.   

[Notwendy]

I agree- getting support for depression is key- whether or not the children decide to have contact. It will help no matter what.

By package deal, surely that's impossible to have a separate relationship with one parent when both are married and living together. It was naive of me to think that, but I also was young too. Same for when visiting the grandchildren- of course they'd visit together.

If someone is separated, they can visit individually.

Jedi, have your children explained what makes the visits difficult for them? Is your husband disruptive? Is it hard for them to see how he treats you? Understanding the reasons might help you know how to resolve them.

[gypsyJedi]

Well, all theses responses are pretty depressing. I’m 67 and husband is 75 and not in the best of health. Family and friends tell me I’ll probably out  live him. I’ve done the math, if I divorce I’ll probably end up with 1/3 of the income for retirement I planned on. I’ve explained this to the kids. I’ve also told them we are NOT a package deal. I would love to visit and attend grandkid games or whatever by myself.  But I haven’t gotten any texts or calls.  When I’ve called it’s been ok but strained.  My husband is opinionated,and stubborn, and self absorbed. But the blow ups happen once every few years.  From what you all have written, it sound like your experiences were on a daily basis. It’s too late for me. Maybe I should be thankful my kids will be happier with out me

[Cat Familiar]

What keeps you from attending grandkid games by yourself?

[Notwendy]

Jedi,
Have you asked your children specifically what the issue is? If you do, and they reply, be prepared to hear it, and listen, and don't react by being defensive.

It's not possible to know what they are thinking if they don't tell you. Maybe it's a miscommunication. Maybe they were subjected to your husband's moods, or whatever, but it's not possible to repair a hurt relationship without knowing what needs to be repaired.

Maybe I should be thankful my kids will be happier with out me

That is an assumption. This isn't the kind of decision children make that they are happy about. It's a decision when they feel there's no other choice. Are they able to tell you why?

[livednlearned]

I’ve been married 47 years and have decided to stay in my marriage with BP husband. But 2 grown sons won’t have a relation with me anymore.

Did something happen that led them to say this? Have they said this before?

That includes the grandkids that are my whole life.

That has to be excruciating. What ages are they? When's the last time you saw them?

I really don’t see a future, when your my age it’s all downhill from here anyway. Now I don’t have my family that I love so much

It's understandable to think this way when you're feeling depressed.

It sounds like one of your sons is still in contact with you. Does he know you suffer from depression? He may not know how to have a relationship with you and protect himself from his dad at the same time.

A lot of us here have to learn how to do this. Maybe you and your son can learn how to do this together.

Friends here can help.