20+ Years Marriage BPD Wife Finally Wants a DIVORCE, What to do?

[MontanaDude]

Where to start. My wife is my best friend. I only found out about 7 months ago about BPD and my wife seems to have it.

She is the most incredible woman, wife and mother, so loving, kind, compassionate and I've watched her for 20+ years struggle with self esteem, insecurities, trauma from childhood and me, feelings of hopelessness and self worth. She's going through early menopause at 38. She's been on antidepressants for 10+ years now and recently started on Testosterone pellets to help her and she also thinks she has Pmdd. Which once she told me I read through and it does seem like she is struggling with it.

She is incredibly creative and artistic. She is very overwhelmed with a lot on her plate now just taking over a new bakery business adding to her other business her and my sister in law started. My wife is the creative one, sis in law is the biz oriented one.

My wife asked for a divorce on Wed last week. She doesn't feel like she's enough and said she can't give me what I need and wants me to be happy and she wants to be happy and isn't right now and needs to focus on her which I support. This has been an up and down battle the last 3 years when it all came to a head.

She seems to be in a lot of pain right now and my heart is breaking for her.

We're on good speaking terms, still friends, she's still saying she loves me, and we both want to do the divorce right for us and our kids. 3 girls Ages 17, 15 and 10. Our oldest is our son who's 18 and out of the house.

20 years of marriage. We got married 15 days before her 18th birthday and I was 19 so we've been through a lot.

I'm still committed to her and let her know I respect her decision and will help with the transition in the best way I can. And if this is what she desires and needs to heal I will help however she would like me to.

This last cycle has been happening frequently the last 6 months with constant commitment and recommitment and this time it seemed it was just to much for her. As little as 3 weeks ago we separated for a week then she wanted me back. Vowing to work on herself and not do this again.

We had a major event that sparked therapy almost 3 years ago this month. She was having an emotional affair with her "boss" at work which was the first job she had since married, thank heavens it was all in her head and the other guy had No idea. But we worked through it and have had the best 2 1/2 years since we worked through things and made a new commitment in Aug 2019.

Things started changing for the worst 6 months ago. My brother and sister in law moved in with us while we worked on getting some family property ready for us all and it became very stressful for my wife. We are fairly religous and during their stay with us my sister in law left our church and my wife also left with her after already struggling with religion for the last few years and seemed she felt empowered by my sis in law leaving. There is of course more to that story.

While of course the decision was hard for me to cope with I told her I was still committed to her 100% since we are both following God, our Savior, and committed to one another and our family. And if we strive to follow Jesus I know we'll be ok. That's all I can hope for and be an example to her and show her unconditional love.

Throughout all our therapy sessions I unfortunately have been the one to schedule everything and while she was committed to going it just seemed to overwhelm her to try and take initiative to schedule her own therapy. Though this time she did ask me to find a female therapist and make the appt since she was overwhelmed with taking over the bakery.

7 months ago our last therapist talked to us about our 15 year old daughter exhibiting BPD traits because she was struggling with that and we knew something was going on, which then led me down the research path of understanding my wife was struggling with what seems to be the same. I asked him if he thought my wife had BPD and he told me she did after several more months of him speaking with us both. Light bulbs went off for me as I started reading about and understanding BPD in relationships. Literally the last 20 years came into clarity for me! This roller coaster started to make some sense.

He didn't tell her yet because she wasnt in a good headspace and was very inconsistent with committing to therapy and he wanted to make sure she was committed first. I eventually talked to my wife about it after she was triggered by our therapist one day and didn't want to go back. So I didn't think I had much to lose by talking to her about it, she was extremely angry at me and him for "diagnosing" her behind her back.

She didn't want to see him after our last session when he was being a bit more intense with our therapy after he asked us if it was ok to finally start moving more intensely forward to work through things. She was triggered by something he asked her and she was done. I don't think she has wanted to listen or try to understand more about BPD either and if she may be dealing with those traits.

She has never approached me on wanting to discuss why he came to the conclusion he or I did. I bought the "Stop Walking on Eggshells" workbook which really helped me understand things better. She feels attacked and now labeled and broken which I can appreciate why she would feel this way.

I'm doing the workbook for people who have loved ones with BPD which is proving helpful but I know all I can do is focus on me, being the best I can for me and her, and learning how to best work with her, and I hope she finds the healing she needs with all this.

I definitely have my own issues and challenges! I'm an entrepreneur and always been very high functioning ADD, and recently started Adderall for it which is proving a bit helpful but I'm still figuring out dosing levels. I am a very decisive individual, very secure in myself, never afraid to do my own thing and follow my instincts, and can come across to her as bulldozing and domineering which I've recognized more through therapy and self reflection too. I caused serious trauma to her  about 10 years into our marriage dealing with pornography off and on that 10+ years later she still holds deep hurt from. I quit 10+ years ago but didn't give her the healing she needed then and has resented me since. I definitely botched that bad. Along with her holding deep resentment and hurt for so many things that built up in our marriage for her.

I have been working diligently the last 3 years with her and in therapy. She recently told me after wanting a divorce a week ago I emotionally manipulate her which from what I've read about it doesn't seem to be the case. But I definitely want to understand if I truly do that at all! I love self improvement and constructive criticism so much my best guy friend says he's never known anyone to eat it up like I do. I always thought it was normal

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[mitten]

Sorry you're going through this.  I've only been in my relationship with my uBPD spouse half as long as your relationship but I can relate to many of the things you're going through.  What do you want to happen in this situation?  Obviously divorce would be hard but you didn't specifically mention trying to stop it at this point in the relationship.  What do you think is best for you?

[MontanaDude]

Sorry you're going through this.  I've only been in my relationship with my uBPD spouse half as long as your relationship but I can relate to many of the things you're going through.  What do you want to happen in this situation?  Obviously divorce would be hard but you didn't specifically mention trying to stop it at this point in the relationship.  What do you think is best for you?

Yes I forgot to mention that mitten thank you.

I truly love and care for her so much but I do need to protect my heart, my emotions, my children, and take her at her actions. For now if she wants to stay together I would continue learning how to best manage in this relationship but truly deep down I find it difficult to continue if she doesn't want to pursue her own help and healing. I've failed all attempts at helping there.

Overall it's such a conflict of emotions it's so hard.

[Secret Lily]

So sorry to read what you are going through MontanaDude. I understand how things must have been more unstable since your wife's early menopause. My mother was like that too, Her whole life she exhibited BPD traits, we as family just didn't know what it was and how to deal with it. Just had a very tumultuous childhood. Until she hit her menopause and the hormonal instability made her even worse. That's also when she left and divorced my father. The difference is my mother never had any kind of awareness that I know of. And never considered therapy, since there is "nothing wrong" with her.

I understand how you don't wish to divorce your best friend and your loving wife. Was your wife in a dysregulated state each time she said she wants divorce? What do you think of the option <therapeutic separation>? Like to separate and not to date other people, the goal is to improve the marriage in the end by working on self separately?

[Cat Familiar]

So many huge pressures on your wife in recent times:
*early menopause
*sharing the house with extended family
*daughter’s BPD dx
*new business
*her own BPD dx
* separating from the church

That she mentioned divorce could very well be her way of trying to alleviate some of this stress, not by looking within (which is very difficult for people with BPD), but by blaming you (also a very typical pattern for PwBPD).

Keep reading here and you’ll find countless stories where a partner wants a divorce, then forgets about ever saying that some time later. Or frequently asks for a divorce, but never follows through.

If you don’t want a divorce, then let her take the steps to make it happen, don’t you enable it by helping her move forward.

[MontanaDude]

Yeah... She's more or less been dealing with things forever and the early menopause definitely seemed to push her over the edge. The real sad thing is she's never taken initiative to schedule her own therapy appt, only if I scheduled it would she go. And recently forgot about the Other one I scheduled for her trying to help because she was overwhelmed before she said she wants the divorce.

Also she never got a true "BPD" diagnosis other than our therapist telling me she has it. Which I suspected once I started reading about it.

In a way I've enabled things too because I would try to hold her accountable but she would spiral and I wouldn't be able to move forward in a constructive conversation.

And I think part of the challenge has been the way I communicate as well. ADD / Over explain. Use my phone for notes. She hates it. Yet when I say, "just like you need time to process and sort through things I need to process important things beforehand and write them down." then she feels it disengenious when I share from what I write. And we go around in circles.

Balls in her court right now and I have to be patient and show unconditional love and hope she seeks healing. And whether we stay together or not right now is up to her. I really don't know how long I will go on in limbo but right now I'm sitting tight. She'll be moving out soon to stay in my brother and sis in laws camper. By herself without the support of our entire family there. I have a feeling she's gonna spiral quickly once that happens because she will be very lonely. Hopefully it will help her realize what she has here, and how we all love her. She said she needs to focus on her and I said I can support you in that right now. But honestly I don't know. Maybe she'll also just prefer being alone in her own thoughts and world. All I know is I'm the problem to her, she wants to be happy and she's not here and it breaks my heart to watch her struggle.

So sorry to read what you are going through MontanaDude. I understand how things must have been more unstable since your wife's early menopause. My mother was like that too, Her whole life she exhibited BPD traits, we as family just didn't know what it was and how to deal with it. Just had a very tumultuous childhood. Until she hit her menopause and the hormonal instability made her even worse. That's also when she left and divorced my father. The difference is my mother never had any kind of awareness that I know of. And never considered therapy, since there is "nothing wrong" with her.

I understand how you don't wish to divorce your best friend and your loving wife. Was your wife in a dysregulated state each time she said she wants divorce? What do you think of the option <therapeutic separation>? Like to separate and not to date other people, the goal is to improve the marriage in the end by working on self separately?

[Cat Familiar]

Living alone in a camper won’t be the picnic she believes it to be.

Hold tight and see how this unfolds.

Perhaps she needs some time alone to see how supportive you’ve been for her.

[mitten]

Living alone in a camper won’t be the picnic she believes it to be.

So true.  She is probably testing you to see if you'll beg her not to move out.  I think you're doing the right thing by letting her sit with her emotions. 

[MontanaDude]

Yes you both are right. Not being in our house with our three children and my support will probably hit her hard. But... I dont want her in this marriage because it's easier than being alone, only because she wants it. I love her so incredibly much and she definitely knows it.

I've done zero begging in all this or asked her to stay, and in fact validated her need for a divorce and told her I can respect her decision if that's what she feels she needs to do. And I will help her however she needs it, including moving out once she made the decision. I've given her the bed while I stay in our camper at home even though she said she would stay in it. While letting go has been hard it has been a relief at the same time. Constant tiptoing is exhausting.

It already seems her heart is softening. I haven't given her anything to push against so it seems she's not pushing. I've been helping relieve her around the house and taking some burdens off her because I know she's been so stressed.

She says she misses me and loves me. Love was never the issue. She seemed to just be spiraling. As she said her heart gave up.

I'm doing the Stop Walking on Eggshells workbook and also listening to Loving Someone with Borderline Personality.

For anyone who's dealt with this what is the best thing to do when your BPD partner is spiraling like this and has threatened divorce? And if she does decide to stay and not go to treatment I guess the best thing I can do is learn how to manage and navigate her emotions. I need to learn how to not trigger her or at least know when not to engage. I'm learning more and I truly want her to get the help she so needs so she can feel better.

One of the hardest things is you feel you are being so rational and talking then they just flip a switch. And truly she has been dealing with so much on her plate I know shes overwhelmed which compounds everything.

[formflier]

Definitely recommend that you let her work through this and don't agree or take action on things you don't want to do.

Here is the thing...if she wants a divorce, she doesn't need to involve you to get one, and if she talks you into divorce..then she can more easily blame you..and let herself off the hook for her feelings...especially feelings from her actions.

There is a lot on her plate...I mean it left me wondering what major life area for her is NOT under massive stress.
 
Big picture:  How would your conversations change if you looked at her as a person to be loved and listened to...instead of a problem or set of problems to be solved.  (Note...not saying you are this way...but cautioning you that it's easy to focus on solving a MASSIVE list like that...)

I'm glad you are here...we can walk alongside you in this.

Best,

FF

[khibomsis]

Daer Montanadude, it is such  hard position to be in! With the menopause definitely some red clover tea and chasteberry at night. Sorted my menopausal rages right out.
 

[MontanaDude]

Definitely recommend that you let her work through this and don't agree or take action on things you don't want to do.

Here is the thing...if she wants a divorce, she doesn't need to involve you to get one, and if she talks you into divorce..then she can more easily blame you..and let herself off the hook for her feelings...especially feelings from her actions.

There is a lot on her plate...I mean it left me wondering what major life area for her is NOT under massive stress.
 
Big picture:  How would your conversations change if you looked at her as a person to be loved and listened to...instead of a problem or set of problems to be solved.  (Note...not saying you are this way...but cautioning you that it's easy to focus on solving a MASSIVE list like that...)

I'm glad you are here...we can walk alongside you in this.

Best,

FF

Thanks for the info and support! She's trying not to involve me but she's asking my thoughts on what's next? I asked her what do you want to do? And she says "Well it's not all about me." But I said, this choice is yours so let me know what you would like to do. And I can tell she doesn't really know. I've always made so many decisions because she is indecisive so I'm just allowing her to own this. I can see she's unsure but that is good.

Aside from the kids I'm pushing her choice to her. I'm not gonna give her ideas as I have in the past.

We're gonna have a chat tonight and I'm gonna ask her if she is still feeling the same way.

I really will take a step back and listen to her as a person to be loved. I'm such a problem solver so yes inherently I've always tried to "help". But yes I need to listen more without offering solutions. Especially now.

Thanks so much!

[formflier]

  But I said, this choice is yours so let me know what you would like to do. 

Probably better to announce in a matter of fact way that you don't want to divorce and then acknowledge that if she decides to get one, you understand the divorce will happen.

It could be misinterpreted that by allowing her to make "this" choice...she might assume you are giving YOUR choice to her...

She decides her vote on marriage.

You decide yours.

Takes two yes votes to continue.

Best,

FF

[MontanaDude]

Oh I have told her I do not want a divorce. She absolutely knows that.

What do you mean by acknowledge that if she decides to get one I understand the divorce will happen? I thought I did or was it not direct?

I said "I am sorry you want a divorce, I do not but I respect you and will respect your decision. I want to remain friends and will help however I can." Maybe she thinks I'll file. And really I don't want her to have to figure it out all on her own but maybe I should? Keep living my life and working on me while she moves onto our property to live in my bro and Sis in Laws camper for an undetermined amount of time, and it's about to be snowy winter.

I've made it crystal clear I don't want a divorce.

I haven't asked her if she's willing to try this differently now. We've been to therapy and it helped but she got mad our last therapist pushed her and she didn't want to go back to him. She wants a female which she was supposed to schedule, got overwhelmed and I offered to schedule one. Which I did, and she forgot and didn't go. I ended up going to see the lady on my own.

To me its irrational because if she really cared about our marriage in would think she would put in the effort to go to therapy. She's never really went on her own.

I'm going to talk with her tomorrow and am thinking about asking this,

"I was just wondering about the last couple of weeks. Are you still feeling the same about the two of us and your decision?"

I want to also ask her if she really feels like we've done everything we could to save our marriage. Not a week before she was promising how she would never separate again and would do whatever it takes together because she wanted to be together.

She says she loves me and has always wanted to make this work so can we do something drastically different and a different approach? I want to frame it in a way that makes sense for her.

Mainly as I'm reading through the Stop Walking on eggshells workbook and the Audio book Living with someone who has BPD I'm learning the techniques I need to implement moving forward. So it's not about putting it all on her, it's about us both trying a drastically different approach. And right now I'm the one who can regulate emotions and respond to her appropriately. I'm just not ready to throw in the towel unless she really is. I can't control her of course so I can only work on myself.

Thanks for your help everyone. It's incredibly mentally exhausting and we've been at this more or less for 20 years. I know we're both exhausted and she just isn't happy because she never feels she will be enough for me. "She gives and inch and I want a mile she says" It breaks my heart cause I don't see that at all. Legitimately I even ask her and her reasons make no sense. Asking to review some ways to connect more and better together is me asking to much for her

[MontanaDude]

When I talk to her I wanted to possibly figure out a way to say the below in quotes. And it's so damn hard because whenever I talk about things she says "for the last 20 years I've given you everything even at my own expense and I need to focus on my happiness"

And I tell her I to want her to focus on Herself and her happiness, she cannot make me happy I can only choose to be happy. And the same goes for her. But of course I'm trying to use logic which doesn't work when she is emotionally charged. She can't seem to understand that her happiness isn't predicated on me. Now. If she's not happy in the relationship for whatever reason, I can appreciate that. But she seems to focus on giving everything to me and our family at her expense. Which is terrible and I definitely do not want nor expect her to to do this.

I mean we both have busted our asses and given to our family in different ways but she can't seem to logically understand this? She never says I have busted my ass so hard for 20 years and always provided for her and our 4 kids. Always making sure we have evrything we need. Should I ever say this? I never have because I'm afraid she'll be so hurt by it and feel like a bad wife.like she's said before. I don't think the logic of that will resonate with her. And I don't hold it against her in any way shape or form shes never told me this.

I want to say something to this effect.

"Look I know my behavior has come across as trying to fix you, I can appreciate your viewpoint on that and I take full responsibility for it. I want you to know my intentions and I know many of my failures in this.

I haven't understood how to best react or handle a lot of situations due to my own lack of skills and awareness with effectively communicating. I fully know I can only control myself and I really have no intention of fixing you. If we see someone in pain we want to help right? This is how I have approached Much in our marriage as you explained to me your pains and hurts you've dealt with since we have been married. Can you appreciate that viewpoint babe? I mean we all want to help someone when we see them in pain.

And not only this but I have caused yiu hurts and pains you are trying to sort through on how to forgive and yes I get frustrated when you bring up the same things to me over and over and I don't really know how to handle that but I really want to learn and help in any way I can so you can heal. But I'm not a professional and I don't really know.

I have needs I've tried to express in the best way I know how. And I've never meant to overwhelm you by telling you them. I can appreciate the feeling of being overwhelmed and it is difficult to make good decisions when I'm Overwhelmed.

And I truly want help from someone who can help us both better navigate the struggles we are having with communicating hurts, pains and needs within our relationship, and to build upon all the good which I believe far outweigh any negative. And I'm willing to put in that work with a new therapist as you have asked for a new one, as well continue to work on my own in therapy and through discussions with you. You truly do help me want to be a better man, husband, and father and I appreciate you for this. There is nothing for me that has happened which I'm unwilling to work on together."

Also I struggle keeping my thoughts short and sweet when we talk. I like to write things down so I can stay focused and on track. She can't seem to appreciate this and thinks it disengenious. Yet it's how I process my thoughts. I'm Add and am fully aware I can ramble and go in circles, hence my post here haha.

We've had to resort to writing letters and I'm wondering if I just need to write this all down and give it to her to read while we are sitting together so she can talk to me then. I realize I've had to write letters because our conversations always seem to go in circles until we were both exhausted and fed up. Neither of us feeling heard or validated. I know I can and will do better because I do not struggle BP traits. So I have to be the bigger person here and do what I can.

Thank you all so much for your insights. You truly begin to wonder and think you are crazy sometimes living with someone who has BPD. And I only found out what it was 6 months ago.

I'm so hypersensitive to this right now if this divorce goes through I dont know if I could ever marry someone again without going to therapy in the beginning and making sure they don't have BPD or if they do they are aware and we can work together on it. I wish I could get to that point with my wife. I care so much for her and want to see our relationship now flourish with this.

She's never been officially diagnosed but as I've read through the workbook and listening to the books it all seems spot on.

[formflier]

Hey...some stuff to reflect on. 

Never...always...those words in relationship chat are markers I use to alert me to "drama" and/or the presence of dichotomous thinking (also called black and white thinking).

A place to reflect for you is to reread your last couple posts...and EVERY time you see always or never...or another absolute word...ask yourself..is it really true...is there ONE example that contradicts?

 
Also...consider this regarding your response to her divorce request.

It sounds to me like you told her you didn't want a divorce but also told her you wanted to be friends and minimize the impact of her divorce decision..should she do so.

Is that really the "message" you want to send?

If a random person came along and destroyed your marriage (which it's obvious you value)...would you seek the deepest relationship possible with that person...going forward?

Right...you wouldn't seek a relationship with that person.

So...why seek a relationship with someone that destroys things that are precious to you?

Why do all kinds of efforts and gymnastics to minimize the effects of your wife's choice to behave badly?

How can she NOT hear a  message that says...in effect..."I'm the cleanup crew for the destruction you impose on our relationship"   (I mean..look at all the efforts and double efforts to get her to go to therapy)

Finally:  Are you pleased with the results of all these efforts?

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

MontanaDude, I read your posts and I see a lot of *WORDS*

Now I’m not BPD and the effect this has on me is like a blizzard of *words*

I can imagine your wife feeling overwhelmed with all the stressors I previously mentioned and hearing all these *words*

I know you are trying to be compassionate, understanding, wanting to encourage a dialog with her, hoping to come to a place of forgiveness and having an overview of your good intentions and how hard you’ve worked to provide for her and the children.

However, as you realize, she is coming from a place of overwhelming emotion and your *words* are likely to feel like a verbal assault, an attempt to control her, to dominate her.

I know this is not your intention.

Let’s step back from this and try and find a way to communicate to her so she can hear it, feel what you’re wanting her to understand, and know that you love her and want the marriage to continue.

You’ve heard the axiom “Less is more.”  Think about this every time you have an opportunity to speak with her.

Listen. Ask questions.   https://bpdfamily.com/content/listen-with-empathy

“What do you need right now?”

“What can I do to help?”

“How can I be of assistance?”

This is not a time to go deeply into old history, dissect what has gone wrong with the relationship, apologize for past hurts.

Keep it simple. No long word chains.

“I love you.”

“I want our marriage to continue.”

“I adore you.”

[MontanaDude]

Yes you are correct. I need to be very careful about using these words both in writing and conversation. Thanks for the reminder. They are true in a few instances but I need to really dig into my usage of them.

I'm very aware of the gray in a relationship

[MontanaDude]

Yes you are correct. I need to be very careful about using these words both in writing and conversation. Thanks for the reminder. They are true in a few instances but I need to really dig into my usage of them.

I'm very aware of the gray in a relationship

[MontanaDude]

Yes you are correct. I need to be very careful about using these words both in writing and conversation. Thanks for the reminder. They are true in a few instances but I need to really dig into my usage of them.

I'm very aware of the gray in a relationship

[MontanaDude]

Sorry I don't know why my post was getting cut off.

Yes you are correct. I need to be very careful about using these words both in writing and conversation. Thanks for the reminder. They are true in a few instances but I need to really dig into my usage of them.

I'm very aware of the gray in a relationship. It is not black and white.

Yes minimize from the standpoint of any negative effects on our family as much as possible. But yes I can see the dilemma in letting her know I'll still be here to help and "cleanup".

What do you suggest to let her know while I don't agree I can respect her decision and will support her in it? I want to make sure if it does happen it can go as smooth as possible for us all. Because it will be hard enough as is.

Doesn't mean I'm gonna do the work for her but at some point if she decides to file and do the work I'm gonna have to come to the table with my thoughts so I don't get screwed. And honestly right now she's not even at a place where I think she's capable of filing. She has done zero work so far.

Thanks so much for your insights and reflections.

And no I'm not pleased with the results of my efforts and realize and know things need to be done drastically different moving forward.

[MontanaDude]

Yes I can fully appreciate this. I've had to resort to writing things to her because our conversations don't seem to be effective. And I take ownership in that. Listening intently does go a long ways.

I've asked her the exact questions below and I do know how I can help her and am doing those things. She even said thank you and how much she appreciates it.

Thanks for the reminder.

I was not planning to send her all those things BTW but I do have a letter. And it is a lot. It's a hard balancing act because I have been holding back not sharing my heart with many things because I was afraid of her reaction. And now I'm no longer afraid. I'm trying my best to follow the spirit and convey to her my desires.

At the end of the day our actions mean more than our words, I'll continue to focus on those yet still tell her I'm in this with her until she chooses otherwise.

I have no desire to bring up old hurts and wounds.

I am very grateful for your words.

MontanaDude, I read your posts and I see a lot of *WORDS*

Now I’m not BPD and the effect this has on me is like a blizzard of *words*

I can imagine your wife feeling overwhelmed with all the stressors I previously mentioned and hearing all these *words*

I know you are trying to be compassionate, understanding, wanting to encourage a dialog with her, hoping to come to a place of forgiveness and having an overview of your good intentions and how hard you’ve worked to provide for her and the children.

However, as you realize, she is coming from a place of overwhelming emotion and your *words* are likely to feel like a verbal assault, an attempt to control her, to dominate her.

I know this is not your intention.

Let’s step back from this and try and find a way to communicate to her so she can hear it, feel what you’re wanting her to understand, and know that you love her and want the marriage to continue.

You’ve heard the axiom “Less is more.”  Think about this every time you have an opportunity to speak with her.

Listen. Ask questions.   https://bpdfamily.com/content/listen-with-empathy

“What do you need right now?”

“What can I do to help?”

“How can I be of assistance?”

This is not a time to go deeply into old history, dissect what has gone wrong with the relationship, apologize for past hurts.

Keep it simple. No long word chains.

“I love you.”

“I want our marriage to continue.”

“I adore you.”

[MontanaDude]

Here's an example of an exchange. She isn't sleeping, and has some hard work today. And again each day she says she loves me. Just a roller coaster.

ME
Good luck today. I'm sorry you aren't sleeping, it has been tough indeed. You are in my prayers.

HER
Thank you. I appreciate it. It’s ok. It’s my decision, I have to deal with the consequences.

ME:
Matthew 7

7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened

It's so hard being patient and putting all my faith and trust in God when it seems the walls are crumbling around me. It is hard indeed. But I have felt his embrace and love through it all.

We are both dealing with the consequences of it. I am not fine either. As much as I'm doing my best.

It's ok for it to not be ok. How could it be?

Her:
I know. I’m sorry it is so hard. I hate how much it is hurting you.

I don't even know how to respond.

I want to say "Are you truly sorry? Is this really what you want or do you feel backed into a corner?"

[formflier]

What is the "it" she is talking about?

Are you interested in also discussing some of the religious aspects of this.

Full disclosure.  I'm conservative Baptist and while my beliefs haven't changed..the way I went expressing those beliefs and communicating with my wife have changed DRAMATICALLY...especially around religious issues.

This may lead some of the posts to be titled "christian discussion" or something like that (which is ok by the guidelines)...that way people understand ahead of time the content they are likely to read.

Last for now:  I used to be a guy that used lots of words like that..especially when exasperated and my pwBPD (FF wife) was claiming I didn't love her...was banging some random ho...or plotting to take away her children (sadly I could go on).

Picking 1 message on 1 issues...and delivering it with minimal words creates POWER.   It can work for you.

Best,

FF

[NonnyMouse]

MontanaDude, you are getting some great advice here from formflier and Cat Familiar. My situation is very similar to yours. (I read that phrase a lot here!) What I've learned, and what I think you are struggling with, is to keep words to a minimum. Don't raise any topics (especially not divorce), don't solve any problems, one subject at a time. But you are allowed to ask simple questions, showing empathy.

We have two young children, uBPDw's behavior got worse after the birth of the first. She is perimenopausal. There seems also to be a connection to her period. But things are starting to get better here. There's always the underlying serious threat of divorce. But equally she often talks about a future that seems to have us still together. Arguing is now almost non existent. But still separate beds, and only rarely do we do things as a family.

I can almost see a stable future. That stability comes from not JADEing etc., and the stuff in my first paragraph. What I'm missing though is how to get from stable to as normal as possible. I think that not discussing things allows problems to disappear gradually, with no decision making (and no loss of face). But...normal = same bed, and there's no way of doing that gradually!

[MontanaDude]

The it being this. The entire circumstances and her wanting a divorce.

Long story short I came home and was very blunt and bold. I said "do you really want a divorce?"

She doesn't, she is just scared and worried. About what I don't know but we're gonna sit down and talk about it soon. I'm gonna ask her specifically what she is scared and worried about and listen... Lots of listening.

Yes I'm learning I need to use less words and be more direct.

My wife is never claiming I don't love her. She just feels she will never be good enough and I will always want more than what she can give. Which I am trying to understand from her point. When we discuss it, I listen, validate. Try and give her my feelings but she doesn't seem to understand.

At this point in the game I'll do my best but I'm not sure how much headway we'll make until she starts going to therapy and being happy with herself.

As we discuss what we need in this marriage I am going to suggest that very thing. "I need her to go to therapy and work through what she needs to so she can feel happy." Not entirely sure how to say it but I will figure it out when I go to therapy and talk with the therapist.

Thanks!

What is the "it" she is talking about?

Are you interested in also discussing some of the religious aspects of this.

Full disclosure.  I'm conservative Baptist and while my beliefs haven't changed..the way I went expressing those beliefs and communicating with my wife have changed DRAMATICALLY...especially around religious issues.

This may lead some of the posts to be titled "christian discussion" or something like that (which is ok by the guidelines)...that way people understand ahead of time the content they are likely to read.

Last for now:  I used to be a guy that used lots of words like that..especially when exasperated and my pwBPD (FF wife) was claiming I didn't love her...was banging some random ho...or plotting to take away her children (sadly I could go on).

Picking 1 message on 1 issues...and delivering it with minimal words creates POWER.   It can work for you.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

OK...so...can you take a couple lines and explain "it" from her point of view. 

What does it sound like when she explains "it"?

Best,

FF

[MontanaDude]

Good question. I suppose I need to ask her what "it" is. I assume she means the divorce.

OK...so...can you take a couple lines and explain "it" from her point of view. 

What does it sound like when she explains "it"?

Best,

FF

[MontanaDude]

The emojis were messing up the post. I made another one without the emojis and it worked.

[MontanaDude]

So on Sun night I approached her. I felt very bold and felt as if I needed to ask her so I asked "Do you really want this divorce?"

She said she didn't.

I asked her if she trusted me, she said she did. I said we need to leave the BS behind and do this much differently moving forward. We can't do it the same way. She said she was just scared and worried but didn't explain much beyond that.

We slept in the same bed that night and had a brief short conversation about her just being worried. She hadn't been sleeping hardly at all and I could see she was in pain that day and she was able to sleep better that night.

I then had to leave on a 3 day trip and we have been texting and talking back and forth, keeping things light and telling each other "I love you"

I then sent this and we're here now.

ME:
Babe, I know you're scared and worried, and I really look forward to understanding how this feels to you. I can fully appreciate the feeling of being scared and worried in our relationship. And honestly still feel some of this. I've been able to let a lot go of feeling scared through prayer, self reflection and knowing I can only control what I do.

I know if we both truly want this we can overcome the challenges. And do this differently from here on out.

Honesty, vulnerability, listening, validation, and empathizing with each other will help. I know how sucky I've been at some of it.

We've overcome a lot already, we will overcome this if we want to.

I love having fun together.

I love you goodnight.

HER:
I love that too. I told you I wanted a divorce because my heart gave up. I don’t know that doing things differently at this point will change that. That isn’t something I can just switch back on as much as I wish I could. I hate it.
I always love having fun with you

ME:
I can appreciate that. We'll talk tomorrow evening. Have a great day.

HER:
I don’t mean that I don’t want to. I want that so badly. I’m sorry

ME:
I hear you, and understand what you mean. Your heart gave up.

I want to as well. We'll talk about how we can. I love you.

HER:
I love you too

Ideas on what to discuss with her in our next in person conversation and the best approach?

I do not want to overwhelm her. I want to walk away from our next conversation on a positive note and with some direction. I'm not gonna give her letters or read my thoughts from my phone. She absolutely doesn't like that. I want to be succinct because she gets lost if I use long sentences.

I want to ask her the following and really listen.

Can you explain what you are scared and worried about?

What does it mean for you when you say your heart gave up?

You say you want to move forward so how would you like to do that?

You said you don't really want a divorce on Sun so what do you want to do next?

You said you do trust me, what does this mean for you?

I really love this from the book Loving Someone with BPD on how to best respond to someone.

Seems like this may be a good step to talking with her.

1. Regulate my own emotions
2. Validate at every step
3. Ask or Assess
4. Brainstorm or troubleshoot
5. Get any info I can about my role, if any and what I can plan on the outcome