PwBPD specific attraction to narcissists

[Ad Meliora]

I also say that cause of the mixed signals I would get, which I still honestly hope one day to understand. She wrote me 'I never want to talk to you again' and then unblocked me the next day. She would refuse to talk to me but then make playlists about how sorry she was and how she would always love *someone* etc. Just like two opposite parts of the same coin that never see each other. Drove me crazy, and I still get triggered about it.

Yeah Poppy, what you say makes a lot of sense.  Thanks for taking the time to write it down.  What I read from the lonely child is we also have this need to understand.  This need we had triggered the behaviors in our BPDexes so then we get into all those word soup terms like dysfunctional dance etc... which apparently Cromwell doesn't like (it's his thread so ok).  Let's just say we start going round and round with each other, but maybe it's just like two dogs chasing their own tails only to stop and growl at each other because it's seeing another dog in the mirror, their self, but it is another person.  For us, we assume they have a "self", we're learning they don't.  Now how in the f can that be?  You, me, ILM, Grumpy, and everyone else have no way of understanding that type of existence.

We go on, we try to "fix".  They don't want to be fixed.  We try to "love" they don't want to be loved, at least not in the way we are familiar with.  We give up and retreat, and that's the last f ing thing they want.  We do see them as childish and entitled.  They may be even proud of it.  We don't understand this is their 'language of love'.  We say, "What, a 50 year old woman gets to act like a 5 yr old and I'm supposed to love that? Gimme a break!"

It's all so more complicated than just the Lonely Child (LC) schema or whatever you want to call it.  That's why I pushed back on Once's points, but he has a point.  Cromwell likes to get at narcissism, I didn't see that at play.  After reading the lonely child story, that makes it look like falling in love with yourself is what's going on.  Again, it's all more complicated for each of us, but perhaps he has a point there too.

The first thing I felt after reading the LC story is sorry for my BPDex.  Seeing that maybe in battling me she was just trying to battle her own demons from childhood, which must be immense. (semi-haha)  It makes me want to contact her, even though I know that's just no good.  I was trying to think of what I'd say.  I like to write words and sometimes 'overshare' as my BPDex pointed out and disliked.  I really want to say "You're not a failure".  Our r/s = Massive Failure.

I can't even think of an analogy.  Ammonia and Chlorine, maybe.  Both are great cleaning agents.  Neither are "bad" per se.  You can put both on just about every surface and they do a good job.  Both readily mix with water and can be used in the same way.  Everyone knows (I hope) not to mix the two and it's easy to do sometimes because bathroom agents aren't always properly labeled with the active ingredient.  You see they don't have a WARNING LABEL on them, so to speak.  They meet, the vessels look good to each other.  They mix, and there's tremendous heat and next thing you know a toxic gas is released and everyone is gagging.  Our BPDexs just run away, blame us, and that's the end of it.  We are left injured, shell-shocked, wondering just what the heck happened there?

[Ad Meliora]

I have an extremely strong intuition, but I do not place my trust in it when I fall in love -

My mistakes came from assuming she was as independent as me, and could be so within the dynamics of relationship. For decades, I had forged my independence, rarely asking for help of any kind, not even as a single father with primary custody. I thought that type of independence, of flexibility, was the hallmark of adult behavior, as well as being able to accept when things didn't work our exactly how they were expected to work out.

This thread, more than others, has REALLY helped me see what happened and why.

I agree with you here.  I think you joined the list at a good time.  I feel like saying where was this "Lonely Child" topic 3 months ago!   It was right there all along.

You can see from that dynamic that a lot of the problem is we want to understand and we can't understand a person not having a "self" it looks ridiculous even when I write it.  We can dig into it more as we talked about our tolerance for pain.  It may have kept us in the r/s a bit longer too.  We ground through it, so to speak, hoping we'd get to the summit.  We suffered and at the end it's just a "Whaaaaaa the f- is going on here?"

[poppy2]

I can't even think of an analogy.  Ammonia and Chlorine, maybe.  Both are great cleaning agents.  Neither are "bad" per se.  You can put both on just about every surface and they do a good job.  Both readily mix with water and can be used in the same way.  Everyone knows (I hope) not to mix the two and it's easy to do sometimes because bathroom agents aren't always properly labeled with the active ingredient.  You see they don't have a WARNING LABEL on them, so to speak.  They meet, the vessels look good to each other.  They mix, and there's tremendous heat and next thing you know a toxic gas is released and everyone is gagging.  Our BPDexs just run away, blame us, and that's the end of it.  We are left injured, shell-shocked, wondering just what the heck happened there?

You're right. And I can relate to so much of the emotional territory you outline in your post. What you describe is my experience too. But I also don't want to make a retrospective understanding that can 'draw all the threads together'. I say that cause I am 95% sure my ex was diagnosed with BPD from a former breakdown. Therefore, the writing was in the sand for her..as the Ammonia, let's say. But I didn't know anything about it. My 'Chlorine' was to presume she had that sense of self... and it's true we can't understand that worldview, but it's also a pretty damaging thing to bring into a relationship.. always checking the others mental health history or whatever. Untreated BPD just shouldn't date :/ that's partly my conclusion. Or: it takes two ppl to do the work, and I didn't fully. understand that before, to be very cautious about that. I don't know, I feel like being totally defined by 'ex of BPD trauma factory' is a designation that, while it applies to me, I also want to reject That's where's I'm coming from. But I can't deny my entry in that club either

[Ad Meliora]

Ad meliora. I was diagnosed with personality disorder non specified. Two decades ago,

Not ignoring the test or your queustion, my answer to it, it doesn't matter its going off on tangents. Im healed this is to help others in their recovery. Im just a facilitator.

Cromwell, thanks for answering.  And thanks for starting this thread, yes it is going off on tangents, but most do.  Besides, these tangents are helpful to others in their recovery.  The tangents are helpful to me.  Isn't that your goal as well?

That's good you see yourself as a facilitator of the well-being of others.  Admirable, commendable, but how about you and your healing journey?  Can anyone truly have too much healing?  I'm basically saying, can anyone have too much love? 

I will answer your question to ILM here the best I can.  The "textbook" is metaphorical, but there is an actual textbook: The DSM V.  Some behaviors will be ones easily traceable to BPD and NPD and stated in there or on this website. Others will be unique to our exes, others, and ourselves.  We spend a lot of time on all of these on the threads.  So "Splitting" is in the textbook, opening up 300 cans of Soup in a row, maybe not.  So "Mirroring" is in the textbook, a grown man taking a dirt bike off of Sweet Jumps is not.  Maybe the latter are crazy behaviors, maybe not.

For me, I would likely not be as magnanimous as you when I felt fully healed.  I'm spending time here rather than taking a nap, or listening to Daft Punk at volume 11, because I am seeking healing.

I feel like maybe if you felt like being even more generous with your time and experience you likely have even more stories to share that could help facilitate healing faster for some, like me, who are lesser informed on the self-work.

[Turkish]

 Violating posts have been removed so that the discussion can continue ~ November 19, 2021, 03:26:39 PM CST by Skip

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[once removed]

I am rejecting all of Once's four points and replacing them with a set of my own.  These are open for discussion and I would encourage you to submit your own as well.

Ad, to be very clear, these are not my points, my thoughts, or my theories. the views expressed are not those of once removed  

1. we mate with our emotional equals.

this is the basis of bowens family systems theory.

bowen was a physician during world war 2. the very short version is that he wondered why some soldiers came back from war worse off than others. his research revealed that it boiled down to an individuals level of self differentiation - self differentiation is synonymous with emotional maturity.

similarly, take a loving family that, for example has three daughters. two navigate life okay, or great, one develops bpd. why?

similarly, take four people that date someone with bpd. one gets out quickly. one struggles, but after processing their grief, bounces back. one struggles, for years, during the relationship, and afterwards. one never gets over it and a deep wound develops. why?

this is one, when ive seen it shared, or shared it myself, that gets a lot of pushback. i dont know if thats denial, or misunderstanding, but i honestly think a lot of it is the latter.

it was a hard concept for me to grasp. my ex and i did not manifest at all in the same way. she was prone to emotional outbursts, lashing out at people, higher than average jealousy, things im not. so how were we the same emotionally?

navigating life on a similar emotional plane is not the same thing as acting alike. you can have two very needy people, for example, with very different kinds of needs.

additionally, our level of emotional maturity is not something that is fixed or static or permanent. we can grow.

more here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=275714.msg12612781#msg12612781

2. 50% of romantic partners of a person with bpd have a personality disorder themselves

its challenging to find a good source on this because most of my searches yield results that are about people with BPD.

i dug this up, but you have to pay to read the full article:

Romantic Relationships of People with Borderline Personalityhttps://www.karger.com › Article › Fulltext
by S Navarro-Gómez · 2017 · Cited by 9 — An 18-month longitudinal study found that more than 50% of the partners of people with BPD had a personality disorder at the end of the follow- ...

if youd like more, i can find it. its buried here on bpdfamily somewhere.

importantly, though, this isnt to suggest that 50% of members here have a personality disorder, any more than it is to suggest all of our exes have one.

most of our partners had traits of BPD, or another mental illness. most of us have traits of a PD, or another mental illness. 30% of the population, at any given time, struggles with mental illness (which may include short term mental illness). that number is much higher here. around 80% of the members here arrive clinically depressed, and experiencing cognitive distortions.

but yes, there are members here, on this very board, with personality disordered traits, or a full blown personality disorder. i think its something worth exploring about ourselves (i may not be "a narcissist", but i have learned a lot about my blind spots by discovering my own narcissism), and something to consider when we help others reach for detachment.

3. most of us were not with someone that would qualify for a diagnosis of BPD

this one also gets a lot of pushback, understandably. we are all here because we were, or are, heartbroken over a very difficult person that we loved, and suffered over, and an explanation for that suffering means a great deal.

if your ex were diagnosable, they would most likely already be diagnosed.

there are lots of people with borderline personality. and then there is somewhere between 1-5% of the population that has borderline personality disorder.

borderline is a personality style. a set of traits, characteristics, and common behaviors.

those things become a personality disorder when those traits are causing severe distress and impairment on ones life. an eating disorder, a suicide attempt, seriously reckless behavior that lands you in psychiatric help that, along the way, diagnoses you and attempts to treat you.

it has nothing to do with the difficulty you cause in the lives of others, and everything to do with the difficulty you are personally experiencing in your life as a result of your personality traits. there are millions of difficult people that screw over everyone they ever associate with, but dont have a personality disorder.

its a little bit of a semantic difference. you can have subclinical bpd traits and be a more difficult, more destructive person in the lives of others, than someone that would, for a variety of reasons.

have you ever taken some time to read the son/daughter board? these are loving parents posting about a son or daughter with a far higher degree of dysfunction than most of us experienced.

ILMBPDC and I have had a discussion of just what it is that our BPDex's did to us with their mirroring, etc...It triggers a "self-love" that is inside of us where we are essentially trying to love ourselves via our BPDex.  It's so complicated I can't really  put words to it, but it relates to the emptiness of our ex's and pulling us in and mirroring our own wants and drives back at us.   What I'm talking about here doesn't relate to any dictionary definition of narcissism or any other term that I've yet seen developed.  Yet, it was something I experienced.

mirroring is a normal human behavior that facilitates bonding. if i laugh at your joke, if i nod as you explain something, im mirroring you. if i validate your point of view, if we laugh at the same family guy joke, we are mirroring each other. in fact, according to freudian theory, personality disorders develop/we fail to develop a sense of self when our mothers fail to mirror us in infancy.

this is one of the most commonly misunderstood bits of terminology here.

it is common - extremely common - to hit it off with someone, to bond with someone, for whom you seem to have everything in common at first. you love everything they love, and they love everything you love. to be attracted to their quirks, to idealize what you will eventually find incredibly annoying. this is the honeymoon phase of a relationship when we all have rose colored glasses.

people with bpd traits just mirror other people at an above average level because theyre insecure, lack a sense of independence, and are desperate for approval.

people that date people with bpd traits (in general) have an above average level of need to be mirrored. the description of the lonely child is just that. they struggle when that mirror is not consistently held up, and struggle to get it back. we arent victims of a well thought out tactic. we overinvested in a fantasy.

having said that, i have read this notion that "we fell in love with ourselves" many times. for starters, i would ask if thats realistic. was there really nothing you loved about your partner? if so, what were you doing?

and if what you were doing was falling in love with yourself, what healthy person gets into a relationship to fall in love with themselves? doesnt that scream "narcissism"?

so, there may be a kernel of truth to the notion for some of us. there was a heavy investment and fantasy in how someone made us feel, and part of our struggle has less to do with the loss of them, and more to do with the loss of that, and what it subsequently exposes. but im always confused when i see it expressed as something to pat ourselves on the back for.

1)  The pwBPD is an Emotional Child who can't handle their own emotions let alone understand yours.  This makes them a volatile and unstable person, incapable of higher emotional states such as empathy or true love.

2) They seek out people that have something they lack.  In my case it was my Self-Concept and self-confidence.  She thought (as many others do) she could get it by cutting me down and taking it from me.  That's not how it works.

3) The Monster (Mr Hyde, etc...) wants to destroy you.  Once that emerges it cannot be negotiated with or otherwise cajoled. It wants to annihilate whoever is in it's path.  You being their romantic partner are likely the prime target.

4)  They have some control, enough to change their behaviors or seek help.  Most chose not to.

Ad, respectfully, these are feelings about your experience (there is not a great deal that is factual to them), and i would challenge you (all of us), at this stage, to broaden them if you want to heal and learn the lessons you want to take into future relationships.

if people with bpd seek something in us that they lack (seriously, who doesnt?), what is it that we are seeking? what exactly do we get from trying to make another person complete?

I've often told my therapist in therapy that I attracted my BPD through wearing a mask because I don't think my true self is worthy of love.

youre onto something, grumpydonut. keep digging.

the most ironic thing about my recovery was that when i realized how similar my ex and i really were (not necessarily specifically, but operating on the same plane), when i learned more about who i was and what i was blind to, how i saw myself vs how others saw me, put together all of my other previous failed relationships, it disabused me of the notion that i was a victim of anyone or anything, and that, in turn, helped me to heal, and to free myself from continuing to make the same mistakes. mind you, that took a few years, and some more continuing to make those same mistakes, but once i saw it, i couldnt unsee it.

[Ad Meliora]

Ok the thread is open and you took the time to go through my points, thank you.  I appreciate you also sharing the link on the "Lonely Child" as I think that's been helpful to many others.

I should've more clearly stated that my points were from my own experience, I intended to say that and see I didn't.  This isn't a "scientific" discussion on NPD so no sources are given.  I'll list my specific difficulty with the points you listed.

1, we mate with emotional equals.  In general this makes sense and I think any long term r/s this would have to hold true. Most people posting have had relatively short-term relationships with their BPDex's.  Here's where I take issue.  Do you know how to do Calculus?  I'm a bit rusty, but I'm asking because even if I know how to do calculus I still retain my ability to do basic addition and subtraction.  It is possible that two people at two different levels will indeed come together and stay together for reasons other than the mathematical abilities.  Catch my drift?
Especially if the one partner is really good at pretending to be good at math.  This will only buy so much time though.  I'm also thinking a bit about tromp l'oeil here.  Someone could have 20/20 vision but the artist is just that good, they can fool most (into walking into a brick wall, for example).

Point 2,  You still need a source on that, otherwise it is just like my points.  In general terms I think there will be people who fit together mostly because we're assuming Point 1 holds 100%.   I'm sure there are many who have a PD and even more who fall into that 20-30% who suffer from depression and more temporary forms of illness. As for my partner specifically (Point 3) she likely was diagnosed.  She was taking several anti anxiety/depression meds, but she would never tell me why.  She didn't want anyone to know.  Many partners would fall into this category.  As I said we have to do the best we can and say "Oh, I witnessed 8 of the 9 primary BPD traits, it might be slightly likely she has some form of a diagnosable PD"

I feel without acknowledging that there might be a high chance our ex's had a PD it diminishes the pain and suffering others have on this list.  You explained it, that yes some may not fit the clinical diagnosis, but many will.  We can't know.  While the people participating here have come for healing and learning about our selves and how we got caught up in this mess, our exes have not.  People are then told "Nah, they prolly got nuttin wrong wit 'em, just a jerk", is one possible take away without further explanation of the points.

I get it, without reading the other boards, someone with 3 or 4 traits can wreak havoc.  Fair point, of course that's true.

Point 4.  No source given.  It's just assumed and I'm sure there is some scientific backing and it makes sense.  Anecdotally, Grumpy and I took a test and shared results.  He said close to zero I said 3/40 (lower 6 percentile).  I can take it again and get a 6 or a 9/40 but still I'm in the normal range.  I don't have NPD yet I got taken by my BPDex via the lonely child scenario.  I don't score that high on the "vulnerable child" schema either, but yet apparently it was enough.  As posted it looks like you're saying, there's data supporting this and I feel this is true.

Certainly the microscope should be turned inward, but what about the BPD's moving about out there free-range?  Wreaking havoc on the unwary and unwitting.  No warning labels posted for others to be aware of and no intention of getting treatment.  What's the outlook and prognosis for that scenario?

Our exes are just out there roaming around, causing more damage unwilling to even start on this journey.  I know it is what you hear and see the most on this board and I am certain it makes long-term viewers of it bored, but to me it is still the fact and what people are coming here wrestling with as a primary adversary until they can get to the higher levels of thinking about their own pain, or causes of what got them in that predicament in the first place.

It's not the points so much as the approach, dumped on us for the already damaged and confused to further have to sort through to make sense of.  While we're already in a highly confusing situation lacking any kind of experiential reference point.

[IntoTheWind]

When my ex ended it, it was the coldest, most callous thing I have ever experienced. "You are just using me," I told her, and then she yelled that we should break up. That was it. Over. Done.

This makes me shudder. My ex started telling me that she wasn't using me without prompt after using me. I never accused her of it, but I could sense it and she knew I could. I flip flop between feeling of scorn and pity on this.

[Skip]

This is a good discussion, guys. I hope it continues.

Maybe the subject question to explore would be more complete if worded as:

Why are people on the BPD trait spectrum so often attracted to people on the NPD trait spectrum and vice versa.

This book delves deeply into the subject.

The Narcissistic / Borderline Couple Author: Joan Lachkar, PhD Publisher: Brunner/Mazel; 1 edition (February 1, 1992) Paperback: 242 pages ISBN-10: 0876306342 ISBN-13: 978-0876306345

To add more granularity to the comments discussed earlier (thanks Once Removed)...  

1. We mate with our emotional equals.

I think of this in terms of being similar EQ score, but, of course, not identical in every element of emotional intelligence. This can be hard to see as we often over estimate our own EQ and tend to be blind to the areas where we are weak.

2. 50% of romantic partners of a person with bpd have a personality disorder themselves

This statement refers to clinical levels of BPD. So what happens when we are dealing with sub-clinical levels; traits? It's easy to see that 50% of the people here (involved with "BPD trait" partners) have, or are close to having, a diagnosable mental condition or substance issue. When you consider that 29% of the population over all has a diagnosable mental condition or substance issue, its not hard to imagine that in BPD relationships the incidence is almost twice the general population.  NPD Traits? Depression? Dependent personality issues?

3. Most of us were not with someone that would qualify for a diagnosis of BPD

I think everyone sees this... low levels of BPD can be devastating to romantic partner.

4. The prevalence of people with NPD traits romantically pairing with someone with BPD traits is legendary

Don't be afraid of this. People with BPD traits will go to great length to deny them for many reasons and the same is true for people with NPD traits. It's called "Anosognosia". I don't want anyone to think that I'm trying to convince them that they have NPD traits - not everyone here does. But I am saying don't be afraid of this and be quick to dismiss it. Knowing your own weaknesses is the first step to conquering them.  Don't run because of all the stigma and internet noise that casts NPD traits as Megalomania or malignant narcissist. Don't expect that having NPD traits is going to glaringly obvious to you or others. Most of the narcissism I see here is not the spectrum of the grandiose sub-type, but rather the spectrum of the vulnerable sub-type. There is a reason why audiences here often identify with the Lonely Child schema. Finding out what is driving your woundedness and how to work with yourself will be very freeing.

Anyway - some thoughts to ponder.

[Ad Meliora]

"Anosognosia".

Thanks Skip.  That book sounds interesting and worth the read.  I watched the complete talk by Dr. Amador several weeks back and his explanation of Anosognosia, it was fascinating to me.

Well my "Lonely Child" also has the "Angry Child" to back him up.  The latter pushes back against picking on others, especially in a vulnerable position, or who lack a voice.  He cannot stand injustice, perceived or real.  I think those schemas helped me in past roles as community organizer pushing back against large multi-state polluters, for example.  Doesn't mean that I still don't see they are now outdated and outmoded today at age 49.

Believe me, I know you guys are trying to help.  I sincerely appreciate it.