Undiagnosed BPD in ineffective therapy

[bugwaterguy]

Hi folks,

I don't think there is anything to be done, but I thought I would throw this out there.

My undiagnosed BPD wife is in therapy.  She is in therapy for simple depression.  Frow what I have observed, neither her depression, nor BPD symptoms are improving.

I have never mentioned BPD to her.  I have questioned the effectiveness of her therapy in the past (huge mistake on my part - lots of anger and sadness after that).

Is there anything I can do?  Or is this something I just have to let go?

For clarification, the thoughts I have about variations of BPD that seem to apply to her are High Functioning, Petulant, Waif/Hermit.

I am thinking there is nothing I can do - it is frustrating when things seem obvious.  It makes me think of this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Cat Familiar]

If you don’t mind potentially violating norms, you can call her therapist and mention specific behaviors you’ve observed that have led you to believe she might have BPD.

I did that with my husband’s psychologist and he thanked me. I made it clear that I was only giving information and I didn’t want to overstep any confidentiality issues.

He was so gracious about it, but even so, I second guessed myself and asked my therapist what she’d think if a spouse called her offering such information. She too said she’d be grateful.

BPD is a disorder that is observed primarily in more intimate relationships. Certainly some traits can be noted in public behavior if someone is keenly aware, or if the pwBPD is low functioning.

My husband has a very polished and sophisticated social manner and I thought that he would be adept at covering up this side of himself in therapy as it pertains to his self image. Getting past his defenses is very challenging, in my experience.

That may be also true of your wife if the therapist is merely treating her for depression. It’s difficult enough for an emotionally healthy person to self disclose their deepest distressing feelings; that must be magnified tenfold for someone with BPD.

[bugwaterguy]

Well...   Get ready for a long story.

My wife was seeing a therapist for a while.  I suggested the idea of seeing her for couples therapy, since we were having issues.

We saw the same therapist for couples counseling that my wife was seeing individually.  Later I found out that this is poor practice, because the counselor develops a rapport with one side of the couple rather than the other.

We both saw this therapist both individually and together.

While doing some homework for therapy,  I had an epiphany that I was being emotionally abused - and I had been for a long time.  

During our next joint session, I was withdrawn, because I was afraid of saying the wrong thing and worsening the abuse.

I wrote the therapist a letter, apologize for my shut down, and saying I had concerns about emotional abuse.

During my next (individual) session with the therapist, I expected her to say something about the letter, or at least acknowledging it.  The therapist did not mention it.

When I brought it up, the therapist said "It isn't emotional abuse, it doesn't go far enough with the manipulation"  She didn't ask any follow up questions or delve into it deeper.  At first, I felt relief that I wasn't being abused.  Later I realized that she should've followed up, and I felt dismissed.

After about 4 months of couples therapy, with no improvement, I asked my wife what she thought about the situation.   My wife said, this isn't about us as a couple, it is about us individually.  That isn't what I thought the intention was.  My wife then stopped the couples counseling, but is still seeing the same therapist individually.

In hindsight, I think my wife told the therapist that I was emotionally abusing her.  I believe my wife may have been projecting other things she is doing onto me.  I believe the therapist was "armored up" and saw my letter as an attempt at triangulation.  My shutting down in a session could've been interpreted as me unable to confront my own behaviour.

Since then, my wife has said that the therapist told me to do things that I refused to do.   I did all the homework, and then some.  When I ask for clarification or specifics, she says, "Why should I tell you now, you didn't do it before" or "You are incapable of showing empathy, so why should I even try".

I don't think reaching out to this therapist will be helpful.  But I have considered it.  I am curious for opinions, given the further details.

[Cat Familiar]

Passivity was what got me into my first marriage to a pwBPD. I’ve learned that it has not been a helpful life strategy for me, so perhaps that’s why I go the opposite way and advocate for myself. I figure if I don’t do it, who will?

With that in mind, if I were in your shoes, I’d make an individual appointment and say, “Wife says I refused to do what you asked me to do. I don’t know what it is. I'd like to understand and do whatever you suggested because I want this marriage to work.”

I would also come armed with a list of her specific behaviors, the ones that lead you to believe that she has BPD. I would say, “I know that some of these behaviors are things that occur in the marital relationship and are unlikely to be observed elsewhere and I thought it would be helpful to inform you about them. I don’t need to discuss them, they are repetitive patterns I’ve noticed, and I have no desire to violate privacy issues.”

It may be that this therapist is not particularly good or that she is just there being supportive without pushing your wife to look further within herself. Some people are content with just collecting a paycheck.

Or it could be that she has been systematically building rapport so that your wife trusts her and is unlikely to bolt, as so many pwBPD do when the therapist begins to push them to expand their concepts.

If I were you, I’d imagine the upside and the downside to this conversation and use that to guide me.

[bugwaterguy]

Hello Cat Familiar,

I appreciate your insight and responsiveness.  I agree with your thoughts in advocating for myself.

My wife and I have Divorce Counseling scheduled for next week.  She believes divorce is inevitable - since I have been setting clear boundaries around clutter.  Divorce is not something I desire - and I am seeing a Divorce Busting coach.

She has said she wants protect our children through any potential divorce process.  (I have not seen much in the way of her BPD affecting the children, but I am very concerned that they will become her target without me as a mitigating factor) My hope is that this can be used as a tool to help her self-examine, although this might be wishful thinking on my part.

I sent a letter to the counselor stating my concerns. 

[babyducks]

not every therapist or counselor is "good".   

like any profession there are some who inept.  some who miss the boat in particular situations.   some who are biased.    implicitly or not.   every barrel has a rotten apple or two in it.

what are their credentials?    what school did they graduate from?   are they licensed?   are there previous complaints against them?   what school of therapy do they practice?   is that a good fit for you?

My hope is that this can be used as a tool to help her self-examine, although this might be wishful thinking on my part.

as I read this, I am thinking this is different that advocating for your own well being and health.


I've been here for a while and have seen many many members arrive desperately thinking if only I can convince my partner of the irrational way, he/she behaves they will seek help and things can get better.   they compile long affidavits of actions and behaviors that prove beyond a shadow of doubt the partner is disordered.     I can't recall seeing a lot of members report that has worked well for them.

I have seen quite a few members report that this blew up on them.  there is a real art, or skill to calling out unhealthy behavior in a way that isn't shaming.    there is real hard work in identifying where the boundaries are between trying to 'fix' someone else, trying to encourage someone else, and trying grow our own best responses.

'ducks

[stolencrumbs]

I don't really disagree with Cat here, but my experience with doing this was not nearly as positive. I communicated things to my wife's T, through my T, and her T immediately told my wife that I had done so and that I had said x, y, and z. As you can imagine, this helped things not at all. As ducks says, not all T are good. I might be less kind and widen the net from "not all." This is not to say you shouldn't, but just be prepared for all possibilities of how it might go.

[bugwaterguy]

Since this Divorce Counseling is happening - any ideas on what to do?

I plan on starting with extreme validation of things my wife has said in the past:

I understand my wife sees divorce is inevitable.  She believes we have tried everything to save this marriage and nothing works.  I think she believe that I am incapable of meeting her needs, and that if after 25 years of marriage we haven’t figured it out, we never will. (NOTE: I don't believe any of these things - but from what I have learned about BPD, validation is critical to get them to listen)  I have done things that have been invalidating, and I am sorry for that.  I am working to change that behavior.

Then reply with my hope:
I have learned new things in the past few months, and even in the past few days that give me hope.  Even if the marriage doesn’t last, it will be better for our relationship as co-parents.

My wife has stated throughout this process she wants to protect our children.  I am going to suggest we both get a complete mental health evaluation.   This is to allow us to co-parent better, if we get divorced.  It will also protect our children and each other from any mental health issues we might have.

This is not to “fix” anyone.  No one needs fixing.  This is about each of us understanding ourselves and each other, to protect our children and ourselves.  Knowledge allows us to move forward given the situation.  It is like how understanding our son’s color blindness allows us to better support him, and him to better support himself.

I have shared tons of documentation with the counselor that I have about our relationship and mental health issues.  Because of my concerns about emotional abuse and gaslighting, I have been writing a lot.

I will insist these documents be shared as part of any divorce proceedings - if we do not come to consensus.  I think they will do much more good for everyone in this stage of the process. I also believe a counselor looking at them will be cheaper than a lawyer or judge.  




Here are my thoughts on outcomes:

Best case scenario:  She learns more about her own mental health, owns her part of the problems in our relationship and realizes she can do things to make it better, and does them.  And our marriage is healed.

2nd best scenario:  We both learn our part of the problems to stop them from happening in future relationships, and we keep our problems away from our kids. But we separate.

3rd best scenario: This assessment provides me with information to protect our children and myself from my wife in the future.   I know “for sure” whether any of the labels my wife has about me are true.  I gain insight into myself that I can use to help recover.  All these things happen even if my wife gains zero insight.

Worst likely scenario - the counselor is bad and more walls get built up, the counselor believes her and not me - I think a new counselor would be unbiased, and this is unlikely

Worst case scenario - The counseling finds I am an emotional abuser, and I lose my kids and everything in a divorce.  This is extremely unlikely

[I Am Redeemed]

Be aware that there is a difference in a mental health evaluation and a psychological evaluation. Psychological evals are more in-depth and are designed to pick up on conditions such as personality disorders (though they are not always conclusive on a diagnosis for one). Mental health evaluations are more generalized and rely heavily upon self-reporting of symptoms. For instance, in a mental health assessment, someone may be asked to rate the severity of their symptoms of depression from 0 to 5, much like the assessment we have here:

Self Assessment: Depression

You can see from this assessment that the score would rely on how honestly you try to rate the symptoms and would also reflect your perception of your own symptoms.

I recently filled out an assessment that was evaluating my son for ADHD and Oppositional Defiant Disorder. The therapist had my son's teacher fill out the same form to see if he displays similar behaviors in different settings such as home and school. My assessment reflected high levels of hyperactivity and oppositional behavior. The teacher scored him 0 on some things that didn't make sense, such as 0 for being physically cruel to others, yet she sends home notes saying that he got in trouble for hitting and even went to the principal's office for it. The therapist said she could tell the teacher was rating him high on the ADHD behaviors and not paying attention to the oppositional behaviors because she probably expected that he has ADHD. So is the assessment accurate? We aren't sure. The therapist isn't sure, because diagnosing mental health issues is a lot different than diagnosing a physical condition such as diabetes or high blood pressure.

I said all that to say don't place huge expectations on a mental health evaluation to be a saving grace that will reveal all and shine the light on the proper pathway forward.

[bugwaterguy]

I said all that to say don't place huge expectations on a mental health evaluation to be a saving grace that will reveal all and shine the light on the proper pathway forward.

I do have hope, but I understand it is unlikely.

I do think getting an evaluation on me, in context, can help me.  The labels she has been projecting at me (narcissist, autistic, emotional abuser), I can fully dismiss.  I can remove those weapons from her arsenal.  She might still accuse, but I will ignore.

Three individual counselors have said those label don't belong to me.  I still have doubts, because the one counselor who has seen us both hasn't said that.  (the counselor did not say I was any of those things either, to me)  That counselor was my wife's individual counselor first, and I believe my wife biased her against me (see earlier in this thread for details).

How do I know that I am not guilty of projecting with an individual counselor, just like I think she is doing?  I doubt that I am, but I would like reassurance.

[babyducks]

Since this Divorce Counseling is happening - any ideas on what to do?

hello bugwaterguy,

on the top of this board is a thread that is pinned so that it always stays there.

Its called LESSONS.    inside Lessons are links that take you all over this site.  clicking on one link will take you to other related links.

this link is from there:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/how-to-get-borderline-into-therapy

the link talks about Anosognosia and Abnegation:

Anosognosia is the clinical term for having a deficit of self-awareness, a condition in which a person who suffers a certain disability is unaware of its existence.

Abnegation is a defense mechanism postulated by Sigmund Freud. When a person is faced with facts that are too uncomfortable to accept, they are rejected - despite what may be overwhelming evidence.

I would encourage you to take a look at the link.

My wife has stated throughout this process she wants to protect our children.  I am going to suggest we both get a complete mental health evaluation.  

my concern is that by attaching the evaluation to the divorce your wife will have motivation to respond in certain ways.     much like I Am Redeemed discussed above.

Best case scenario:  She learns more about her own mental health, owns her part of the problems in our relationship and realizes she can do things to make it better, and does them.  And our marriage is healed.

This is from the link from above "If we want to help a loved one to get into therapy and, more importantly, to embrace the therapy, we need to "plug in" and understand both the perceptual filters that our loved one has, and their motivations.  This generally requires a great deal of listening."    You have a slight advantage in that your wife is not resistant to treatment.   Taking responsibility for behavior and actions is often very difficult for pwBPD.   BPD being, among other things, a disorder of shame and blame.   

Worst likely scenario - the counselor is bad and more walls get built up, the counselor believes her and not me - I think a new counselor would be unbiased, and this is unlikely.

My experience was that counselors of any type do not rush to make judgements or diagnoses.   all of us have behaved in ways that were narcissistic or depressive from time to time, that doesn't mean that our behavior rises to the level of being diagnosable.

'ducks 

[bugwaterguy]

babyducks - thanks for responding.  I did follow up on the link about Anosognosia and Abnegation.

my concern is that by attaching the evaluation to the divorce your wife will have motivation to respond in certain ways.     much like I Am Redeemed discussed above.

I am concerned by this too - but it seems like my best chance to get a therapist to look at her for BPD.  An evaluation of me is also important, regardless of any benefits for her.  If I can walk away confidently knowing I don't have the behaviors she is accusing me of - I will feel better.

This is from the link from above "If we want to help a loved one to get into therapy and, more importantly, to embrace the therapy, we need to "plug in" and understand both the perceptual filters that our loved one has, and their motivations.  This generally requires a great deal of listening."   

I have done a great deal of listening.  I have tried to dig deeper by asking meaningful questions - but that causes my wife to shut down.  I think when I ask a question, sometimes she gets emotionally overwhelmed.  I think she also "splits" herself, and cannot hold those two different ideas, that she can have both good and bad traits at the same time - which also causes her to shut down.

You have a slight advantage in that your wife is not resistant to treatment. 

I am not so sure - I am wondering if improper treatment is worse than no treatment at all.  If she is projecting with her therapist - making me out to be the bad guy - it might be hindering her from the help she needs.

Taking responsibility for behavior and actions is often very difficult for pwBPD.   BPD being, among other things, a disorder of shame and blame. 

My wife rarely takes responsibility for her behavior.  She often projects her behaviors, emotions, and thoughts onto me.  She tries to tell me what I am thinking and feeling.  It is difficult to validate her when she does that, while still maintaining that those are not my thoughts and feelings.

[babyducks]

I am concerned by this too - but it seems like my best chance to get a therapist to look at her for BPD. 

how are you going to feel if the evaluation comes back without the BPD label?   If I am following along correctly you have seen 3 individual counselors, but haven't managed to continue with any of them.    Your wife has seen at least 2 different counselors.    am I right in thinking this divorce counselor is brand new?   what would have to happen to make you say,... enough... time to let this go for a little while?

An evaluation of me is also important, regardless of any benefits for her.  If I can walk away confidently knowing I don't have the behaviors she is accusing me of - I will feel better.

a couple of therapists have said you don't meet diagnostic criteria, correct?   but because they haven't seen you interact with your wife you doubt their judgement?   you do accurately represent and disclose what happens in your marriage correct?

as I Am Redeemed mentioned,  the field of mental health is very subjective.   Its not like blood pressure where there are more concrete measurements and standards.     most of the partners and spouses of people here would not qualify for a clinical diagnosis.    BPD exists on a spectrum, from the very mild to badly impaired.    but even on that spectrum, symptoms can wax and wane.   as my P used to say 'no one is psychotic all the time'.   

and cannot hold those two different ideas, that she can have both good and bad traits at the same time - which also causes her to shut down.

I'd agree.    pwBPD struggle with black and white thinking.   especially when it comes to their own self image.   as they often perceive of others as either all good or all bad, they frequently see themselves in the same light.    which is why any formal diagnosis can be impossible for them to accept.

I am not so sure - I am wondering if improper treatment is worse than no treatment at all.  If she is projecting with her therapist - making me out to be the bad guy - it might be hindering her from the help she needs.

I know you are invested in searching for a good outcome here.   I know this is important to you.   I would raise a cautionary flag about becoming too invested.   Your wife is an adult.   Responsible for her own mental health choices.   her therapist is a professionally trained adult.    also responsible for their choices.  you can disagree.  you can develop other opinions.   you can decide to go in different directions.    I would be very very careful about trying to manufacture a particular outcome.   as much as it may sound nuts,  people have the right to make bad decisions.

My wife rarely takes responsibility for her behavior.  She often projects her behaviors, emotions, and thoughts onto me. 

if this is her default behavior, is it wise to participate in it? or with it?     members here often report participating in the psychological game of Court Room.     My wife accuses me of cheating on her,  and I have proven to her any number of times that I don't.   I've shown her my text messages.  I deleted my Facebook.   She knows where I am all the time.   I'm never alone with other women but she still accuses me of cheating.   How do I convince her I am faithful?       That's Court Room.   The only way to win is to not play the game.    somebodies' behavior is ~on trial~ but there is never a satisfactory judgement reached.   make sense?

the more she accuses you of being abusive or a narcissist or autistic and the more evidence you collect to convince yourself that you are not, the more you are participating in her distorted reality.   the more fuel you are putting on the fire.     if you want to focus on your own issues for a while I would encourage you to separate them from you wife.     look at you through the lens of you.   

my two cents
'ducks

[bugwaterguy]

babyducks - thanks for your thoughtful response and questions

how are you going to feel if the evaluation comes back without the BPD label?   

I will be shocked.  And I will take that knowledge to move forward in a different way

If I am following along correctly you have seen 3 individual counselors, but haven't managed to continue with any of them.    Your wife has seen at least 2 different counselors.    am I right in thinking this divorce counselor is brand new?   what would have to happen to make you say,... enough... time to let this go for a little while?

Let me clarify - the first counselor was with the employee assistance program at my work - it is limited to six sessions - it is meant to be short term.  The second counselor was long-term and excellent.  The third one is a Divorce Busting coach - this is coaching rather than counseling, and has been extremely helpful.

The divorce counselor I had originally set up for Discernment Counseling, but that was a mistake, because my wife was not interested in discernment.  We are see the same person for Divorce Counseling.  If my wife moves through on divorce, we both want to do what is best for the children.  I would argue that a mental health assessment is a part of that.

a couple of therapists have said you don't meet diagnostic criteria, correct?   but because they haven't seen you interact with your wife you doubt their judgement?   you do accurately represent and disclose what happens in your marriage correct?

Yes to all your questions.
My doubt exists because I am skeptical by nature.  I am a firm believer in the Dunning-Kruger effect.  I believe that a counselor seeing both of us will remove my doubt.

I would be very very careful about trying to manufacture a particular outcome.   as much as it may sound nuts,  people have the right to make bad decisions.

I know this is true - thanks for the reminder.

    members here often report participating in the psychological game of Court Room.   

I am playing Court Room.  Thanks for pointing that out.

 
the more she accuses you of being abusive or a narcissist or autistic and the more evidence you collect to convince yourself that you are not, the more you are participating in her distorted reality.   the more fuel you are putting on the fire.     if you want to focus on your own issues for a while I would encourage you to separate them from you wife.     look at you through the lens of you.   

I understand the problems with JADE.  I believe a mental health evaluation will help me.  My hope is that it will remove the weapons of those labels from her arsenal.  If she also get the helps she needs, that is great - but I want the satisfaction for me.

Thanks again for all your thoughtful words and insight.  It is very helpful and gets me thinking.

[babyducks]

My doubt exists because I am skeptical by nature.  I am a firm believer in the Dunning-Kruger effect.  I believe that a counselor seeing both of us will remove my doubt.  ../../.. I understand the problems with JADE.  I believe a mental health evaluation will help me.  My hope is that it will remove the weapons of those labels from her arsenal.  If she also get the helps she needs, that is great - but I want the satisfaction for me.

you're very welcome bug.

I could perhaps see the first counselor, with the employee assistance program, not prioritizing you or your input if your wife's condition or actions were particular egregious.   typically, the actions, patterns, behaviors of a pwBPD are at the fore front of a triage.

I would be a little more surprised if the second counselor, who you mention was excellent and long term, didn't pick up on a least some of the dynamics between you both.

what my experience was, after a long time of hearing what a jerk I was, and how horrible I treated my Ex, I was pretty confused about if I was this rotten person she was describing.    I distinctly remember feeling relief during some of our final arguments because it was clearly not me.

I noticed that you posted a you tube video in your first message in this thread.    would you mind if we backed up a minute and talked about that video?

what do you see as the message in the video about the nail?    it seems to me that it's made fairly obvious that the man in the video wants to talk about the nail,    he wants to remove the nail,   and he feels uncomfortable not talking about the nail.    what might be less obvious is what is going on with the woman as her face is often hidden from the camera.   which in itself is an interesting metaphor don't you think?    the woman doesn't seem to want to talk about the nail.    she's reluctant to address it bluntly, and instead is talking around it.   much like we talked about upstream, maybe this is some Anosognosia and Abnegation.

when the man just validates that yes its horrible that there is a nail in your forehead the woman visibly relaxes, her demeanor changes, she is more receptive.    they go to kiss and the nail gets in the way.   another interesting metaphor.    the man gets frustrated, and the woman gets upset.     

this is what I see happening with the two characters.    the man has clearly identified what he sees as 'the problem',  he strongly believes he has a viable solution,   and is impatient to do something about it.   the woman's motives are less clear.   she is not happy with conditions as they are, but isn't yet willing to do something about it.    why she isn't ready to do something about the nail isn't made obvious.    it could be that she is frightened of the nail.   scared of the process of having it removed.  it could be she believes she deserves to have a nail in her forehead, after all we don't know how the nail ended up there.   or it could be that she sees the nail as part of her, like a hand or a foot or a personality  and the idea of giving it up feels maiming to her.   she's skirting around the issue of the nail, looking for some support.

now in that 2 minute video why would the woman see the man as controlling, or narcissistic, or emotionally abusive?     He never asks her what she wants to do.   He assumes that anyone would want that nail removed and moves forward abruptly from there.   He doesn't really ask her any validating questions at all does he?   the micro messages he is sending are what?  (Micromessages are small, subtle messages, sometimes subconscious, that are communicated between people often without saying a word.)

upstream we talked about the perceptual filters that our loved one has.    we have them too of course.   and they are usually quite different than our pwBPD.    the woman wants to talk about all of her sweaters being snagged.   that is her filter for this conversation.   she might be grieving the loss of a particularly special sweater.    she might want help thinking about changing from pull overs to button down.    she might want to just vent and not trouble shoot at all.   the guy doesn't appear to spend a great deal of time trying to understand what it is she does want from this conversation.   his attention is mostly on The Nail and What To Do About It.    she feels hurt that he isn't listening to her and of course he isn't because he is staring at this great honking nail in her forehead.

can you see how at the end of this video the woman could look at the man and say - well pick one ... you are a control freak.   it's always all about what you want.

[bugwaterguy]

babyducks - thanks for everything.  You are so insightful.

I see much of the same about the nail video that you mentioned.  Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.

I do just listen, without trying to fix things (most of the time, I still occasionally slip up).  I validate, I empathize, I accommodate.  And the narrative doesn't change.  My wife still says I don't appreciate her, that I lack empathy, on and on.  Typical BPD stuff.

My hope in this counseling session is to get validation for me.  I made a commitment to our marriage - in front of friends, family, and God.  I promised to do everything I could.  This session is to help validate that for me.

I know I shouldn't need that validation after multiple counselors.  The nagging doubt is because everything I am saying in my individual session - she could also be saying in hers.  I don't have the conceit to say I am definitely right and she is wrong.  I could be projecting, just like I think she is.

Ironically, my wife is who introduced me to this video.  I feel the video should be somewhere in the learning tools of this website - but I am not sure where to post to move that idea forward.  There is so much to the layered metaphor of that short video.

[bugwaterguy]

I could perhaps see the first counselor, with the employee assistance program, not prioritizing you or your input if your wife's condition or actions were particular egregious.   typically, the actions, patterns, behaviors of a pwBPD are at the fore front of a triage.

I would be a little more surprised if the second counselor, who you mention was excellent and long term, didn't pick up on a least some of the dynamics between you both.

Just for clarity - both of these counselors were individual - just me in the room - not her.  I am looking for input from someone who sees us both.

[babyducks]

Just for clarity - both of these counselors were individual - just me in the room - not her.  I am looking for input from someone who sees us both.

I have never met you,   never seen you or heard you interact with your wife.    which doesn't mean I don't have a pretty decent grasp on the dynamic between you.    once you know where to look, and how to identify what you are seeing the patterns of a dysfunctional relationship are pretty plan to see.     which is why our stories are so very similar.    broadly speaking of course.

I do just listen, without trying to fix things (most of the time, I still occasionally slip up).  I validate, I empathize, I accommodate.  And the narrative doesn't change.  My wife still says I don't appreciate her, that I lack empathy, on and on.  Typical BPD stuff.

yes.     this is BPD.   it is a serious mental illness.    its named borderline because it's on the border between neurosis and psychosis.   her narrative is not going to change with out a lot of therapy and a lot of hard work on her part.   can you see her being able to put in diligent consistent effort?

your wife might be functioning to the best of her ability in the relationship.  her executive function and ability to emotionally mature may be severely handicapped by her illness.    those who have improved usually discuss it in term of a life long struggle.

My hope in this counseling session is to get validation for me.  I made a commitment to our marriage - in front of friends, family, and God.  I promised to do everything I could.  This session is to help validate that for me.

I know I shouldn't need that validation after multiple counselors.  The nagging doubt is because everything I am saying in my individual session - she could also be saying in hers.  I don't have the conceit to say I am definitely right and she is wrong.  I could be projecting, just like I think she is.

I understand.    let's seriously look at how likely is this.    extremely likely?    somewhat likely?   one chance in one hundred?  one chance in ten?

my P point blank told me I was projecting.   she said "babyducks, you are projecting your good qualities on your partner, and she is projecting her bad qualities onto you and NEITHER IS ACCURATE."

with hindsight I can see she was right.     I projected that my partner was concerned about improving the relationship.   I projected that my partner had empathy.   I projected my partner was thoughtful.

but in all honesty bug,   that wasn't what I should have been concerned about.    my concern, if my brain wasn't so scrambled at the time, should have been why did I tolerate such poor treatment.    why did I equate pity with love.   why was my self esteem so poor that I accepted the amount of verbal abuse I did.     why did all that abuse feel 'normal' to me.

'ducks

[bugwaterguy]

my P point blank told me I was projecting.   she said "babyducks, you are projecting your good qualities on your partner, and she is projecting her bad qualities onto you and NEITHER IS ACCURATE."

with hindsight I can see she was right.     I projected that my partner was concerned about improving the relationship.   I projected that my partner had empathy.   I projected my partner was thoughtful.

but in all honesty bug,   that wasn't what I should have been concerned about.    my concern, if my brain wasn't so scrambled at the time, should have been why did I tolerate such poor treatment.    why did I equate pity with love.   why was my self esteem so poor that I accepted the amount of verbal abuse I did.     why did all that abuse feel 'normal' to me.

Wow!  So much truth.  Thanks for taking the time.

[alterK]

Hello Bug. I am new to this conversation, but a few things strike me, that you are sort of going round and round about. Of course we can't make diagnoses here, but if your W truly has BPD then certain things are likely to be true.

First, with any counselor she is likely to make a very convincing case of how bad a person you are. As others have said in this thread, it's always possible that your W may not have a very good therapist. No matter what, as you have discovered, this can be a very difficult obstacle for you to surmount. For any defense you offer, your W probably has a good counter-argument.

Second, if your position is at all like mine (and most of the others here!), you are really the only one working on solving problems. The tune that is never in a pwBPD's repertoire is "Takes Two to Tango." This is sad, because with her overwhelming need to avoid responsibility, her problem-solving skills are pretty much limited to blaming you. And in fact no matter how many times you say "Yes dear," that blame will never cease. The (possible) upside to this is that you are the one in charge of figuring out solutions.

Third--again IF your W truly has BPD--is that underneath her difficult behavior is fear, helplessness, fragility and a desperate need to protect herself from what she so easily perceives as threats. She believes what she does is vital to her survival. Very sad indeed.

So, if your divorce is inevitable, you should not expect your W to help with solutions. As I said, though, if you can do it right, the power to find solutions is pretty much all yours. It may be hard to do it without anger. This is related to limit-setting that many on this board have talked about. It doesn't always work, and you may never get an actual verbal agreement, but sometimes the process turns out to be easier than you expected.

Hope some of this is helpful.

[bugwaterguy]

How do you let go of the self-doubt when there is projecting?  I have always tried to look at myself first, and I think that is a good thing.

[Cat Familiar]

Why not embrace the self doubt and move on. “I’m not sure what the answer is to this question I keep asking, but the asking is keeping me stuck. I’m going to do my best and be open to what happens, and that is good enough.”