What to do? Married, discard, divorce?, recycle?

[WhatToDo47]

Hi!

My wife of 5 years (together 6), suddenly abandoned me in September to go back to her abusive parents’ house in another state. She has a history of suddenly discarding friends, family members, suddenly quitting jobs (usually after about 1-3 months), but has never done this to me before.

 She said she was coming back but then said she’s divorcing me. Been 3 months now and haven’t heard anything. Told me not to contact her again and blocked me, then randomly called my phone 4 times until I answered last week just to “check in.”

Should I try and get her back? Can I?

I don’t know if she’s been diagnosed, but her therapist and multiple psychiatrists/therapists have all told me she has BPD, she meets every diagnostic criteria, including a history of hospitalizations for suicide attempts.

We don’t have any kids yet, and everyone is telling me yo move on, but I don’t know want to. Not sure what I’m asking, but can anyone help? Sorry for the long post

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Cat Familiar]

Do you want her back?

[Rev]

Ditto with what Cat said...

Rev

[WhatToDo47]

I think so... I only learned about BPD after she left, and I would like to give the marriage a try with this knowledge, but the more I research the more it seems like no matter what I do this will repeat. So I guess:

1.) If I want her back, what should I do?

2.) From the experience of those here, what should I expect/take into consideration as to decide if I want her back?

She is not in therapy now, she has been in therapy at least twice in the past and seen great results but always splits the therapist and quits (and blames me for it).

[WhatToDo47]

She has a tendency to have a "colorful" memory and make accusations of harassment, stalking, assault, etc against exes and coworkers and also has dissociated and hurt our dog and herself, about which she has amnesia afterwards, but never anyone else (as far as I know). For these reasons my friends and family want me to divorce her and move on before we have any kids or real assets, but I have a lot of cognitive dissonance on this and have seen her improve with therapy and show a lot of remorse once regulated/recovered again

[WhatToDo47]

One more thing, she used to be much better when I met her (her age 20), but it has gotten worse over the years to where she can't hold down a job anymore (due to rages, splitting, etc), I have come to accept this as the plan for her to become a stay at home mom. She is now 26, and she discarded me 1 month after a trip to Hawaii for our 5 year anniversary and approx 1 month before we were supposed to start trying for kids

[Cat Familiar]

I would suggest you do a lot of reading on the Conflicted/Divorcing Board as well as the Parents’ Board and the Son/Daughter Board.

It’s a very heavy life decision to choose to reconcile with a partner with BPD.

Having a BPD parent can be very traumatic for children, in addition it seems there is a genetic component for BPD.

[WhatToDo47]

Thank you and that helps a lot. I’m 99% sure her mom and grandmother also have BPD, so I can see the genetic component first hand.

When she reached out the other day, we spoke for about an hour, she was all over the place but seemed better than she did a few months ago. I tried to validate her emotions/perspective and have been learning some of the tools on this website.

Do you think it’s better to keep actively trying to reconcile or just let her cool off? Also, any stories of BPD filing for divorce, reconciling, and getting back together. I keep looking for success stories but it seems like everyone says it’s just worse if they come back.

Thank you all so much, this website is a lifesaver.

[WhatToDo47]

One more thing (sorry for so many posts!).

In the past, when she had her self harm meltdowns (which is what I believe this is, because she said to me and her then-therapist it was either leave or kill herself, but that it wasn't my fault), the best strategy was to remain calm and tell her I love her and will never abandon her.

Since she is threatening divorce, is this still wise? Better to assure her I'm not leaving or to leave her alone and trigger her fear of abandonment to get her to come back.

Thanks again everyone

[GaGrl]

For your wife to make significant change, she will need to be committed to pursuing mental healthcare that has shown to be of benefit with BPD. The most frequently recommended therapy for BPD is DBT (Dialectical Behavior Therapy), which is intense and, as mentioned, requires commitment.

Do you believe your wife is capable and committed to therapy of this kind?

[WhatToDo47]

I believe she is definitely capable, she is very smart and can be very hard working. In the past, I would have said 100% yes, but now that she is with her enabling BPD mother and spiraling I don't know. It seems like your question is the crux of my decision what to do...

My 1 boundary has always been cheating. Thankfully, she tends to be impulsive in other areas (money, food, self harm, etc) and that I can and am used to coping with and has never cheated.

The biggest difference now is that in the past she knew something was wrong with her, now she thinks she is 100% right and everyone else is wrong.

Any tips how to get her to come back or at least discuss DBT. I would want her back for the long haul if she's willing to try therapy.

[Rev]

Any tips how to get her to come back or at least discuss DBT. I would want her back for the long haul if she's willing to try therapy.

Wow - what a really helpful and fulsome thread.  Lot's of great stuff here.  

So you've come down to this statement and this is where it can be tricky, regardless of the situation you or your partner is in.

Here's the advice I followed when I found myself in that situation.  Try to look at this list as a group of ingredients rather than a check-list. Every situation requires a different mix.

1) Try and get yourself to a neutral, shame free space as you look at all of this. You too may require counseling to see yourself in a forest from the trees kind of way, regardless of others. In other words, what kind of relationship do you have with yourself?

2) Buy yourself a good self help book on reconciling in relationships - there are lots out there. Read it and ask yourself what you agree with and why.  What don't you agree with and why?  What is still gray for you?  In the gray lies your blind spots and exploring that will likely help you re-explore the parts you are sure about.

3) Suggest - and I am heavy on the suggest - the counseling.  If you offer this as an ultimatum (and with any personality challenge like BPD, there is a pretty good chance this will be very touchy) then it will not go well - now and in the future. Counseling can be a very, very scary place for pwBPD, and the only response I have known to work in terms of support is time and space. How long are you willing to wait?

The standard method to go about this - you go for yours, she goes for hers. You then go together as some point. DBT does in fact require ALOT of commitment, both from the client and the therapist. Often, DBT therapists are in counseling themselves as a way of remaining objective and keeping their energy up.

4) Finally - be ready to accept what comes - especially if it's not what you want to hear. BPD relationships thrive on the uncertainty (lack of internal boundaries) of one of the partners. The slippery slope starts - and one partner gradually, step by step, does yet a little more, until you end up where you started. In some cases, the abuse actually escalates.  

Hope this helps.

Hang in there.

You do you. Don't lose you for anyone. It's okay for two people to admit a lack of compatibility before things get to a bad (worse?) place.

Rev

[WhatToDo47]

Thank you, Rev.

Apologies in advance for a long post but I  do hope this thread helps someone else, that would give me great satisfaction to spare someone the pain I’m feeling.

To whoever is reading, the chaos of the last 6 years prevented me from stopping to think “what is going on? Is this what I want my life to be?” I remember early on in the marriage Googling “am I in an abusive relationship?” I don’t even remember why. But before I could read more my wife called with another crisis. Trust your instincts.

BPD can be master professional victims, and I always believed her stories. Don’t just assume everyone else is wronging them. If I would have thought critically, I could have suggested help for her earlier.

Also, I saw her brutally discard and frankly abuse so many friends, family members, coworkers, therapists, etc. I never thought it would be “my turn.” Don’t make my mistake. She was hospitalized after the most recent serious suicide attempt, but we fought to get her released quickly instead of having a thorough work up because this whole time we thought she just had anxiety and got overwhelmed. Don’t make my mistake.

Since she left, I have been speaking to a therapist once a week. He says I’m developing PTSD and strongly urges me to go no contact with her before she returns and we have any kids.

I will get some of the books you describe and really clear up my own thoughts, so I can be ready whatever happens.

I am willing to give her whatever time and space she needs, better to wait and have a better outcome. She does usually have some level of self awareness when things fall apart.

When we spoke on the phone last week, I told her I’ve been researching personality disorders, and her response was, “my goodness, do YOU have a personality disorder?” That’s the current self awareness.

I would commit to counseling for the rest of my life if that’s what it takes. Hopefully she will be open to starting, I will be gentle and take it a day at a time if she is open, expecting many steps backwards for a few forwards.

I still think if anyone can be a good partner and help her, it’s me. I am thankfully very stable and forgiving and have the resources, financial and otherwise, for a long campaign of therapy for both of us.

Rev, the advice/thought process you used helps immensely. What was the last straw for you? How did you decide to part ways, and did you ever go through a separation like this followed by reconciliation and therapy?

I still love her deeply and want to give this a real shot now that I know what I’m dealing with.

Thank you all for helping me work through this. It sounds like there’s nothing I can do but wait and work on myself.

Take care of yourself everyone.

[Rev]

Rev, the advice/thought process you used helps immensely. What was the last straw for you? How did you decide to part ways, and did you ever go through a separation like this followed by reconciliation and therapy?

Nice thread - I've learned lot's more about where I have been and more importantly why. I too spent much time suppressing that inner voice that said something is more than just a bit off.

So what was the last straw - our finances. In my family's culture of origin, carrying debt and mismanaging money is very, very shameful. And our finances were out of control. When I discovered that, something in me snapped and the next day something else in me snapped into place - if that makes sense?

In a flash I could no longer abide the verbal and physical abuse I had suffered in the five years prior. I forgave myself for every time I had ever lost my temper in the midst of heated exchanges - she played the victim card too and I every time I would raise my voice in self defense, I would chastise myself. I allowed myself to be human on the day we separated.

I had tried to leave twice in our five year relationship. But you know, being a competent alpha male, it's not so simple to admit you're an abuse victim. Hard for your guy friends too - not that they weren't supportive - it's just that we minimized a lot of her behavior.

Also, we had twice talked about therapy. Twice she agreed and then backed out. So I went alone, which of course normalized that 100% of the problem lay in my hands.

So this time, when I discovered how BAD our finances really were, I confronted her with steely eyes. And yes I offered her and ultimatum and yes I knew that this would provoke the end of the relationship. And yes I did that on purpose because I wanted out. I just needed for it to be her decision.  

So when the enormity of her rash decision hit her (I'm the one with the solid finances) she tried to lure me back in various ways. In my part of the world, the way the laws are structured, since this was second marriage for both of us, she was legally entitled to zero from me. Her debts were hers and mine were mine. So, I just held on to the shame of being in debt as a powerful motivator and have since done therapy to release that shame.

There's the story.

Hang in there.

Be well. You are on a great path.

Rev

[WhatToDo47]

Thanks again for all of the encouragement and taking the time to share your story, Rev. That is all so helpful. It’s just nice to know I’m not alone, and I’m not the crazy one for wanting a calm and stable and happy life. I think calm makes her anxious.

The finances resonate with me. When she was here, we ended up 300k+ in debt. To dig out, we had a budget (that we created together), yet every month she would overspend on impulse purchases, then she would have an emotional meltdown, say she’s a burden and might as well kill herself, which would lead me to reassuring her that she is more important to me than money, her resolving to do better, and repeat every month for 6 years.

“I forgave myself for every time I had ever lost my temper in the midst of heated exchanges - she played the victim card too and I every time I would raise my voice in self defense, I would chastise myself.” Ditto.

I have never tried to leave and promised her I never would, and same here, as an educated, physically strong, alpha male type, it’s hard to grasp that you’re being abused and have people take you seriously. She is the master at doing reprehensible things that end me, my family, etc somehow apologizing.

I think the reality that she now has no one supporting her financially will begin to set it. She has been away only 3 months and already about to lose her part time, minimum wage job. Time for me to do some soul searching.

I am thinking that the only way this can work is if I have some very clear boundaries emotionally and financially (like you did with the debt and therapy) so that if she takes her sweet time deciding what to do and whether to try therapy I am protected. And I have to accept that if I do this, it could spell the end of our marriage. She will never be consistent, logical, and stable, so I have to be. Then, whatever happens I will be okay eventually.

If you don’t mind me asking, how did she try and get you back? It sounds like your ex is very similar to my wife, and I want her back if she can respect the new boundaries that I am going to have to set.

[Rev]

If you don’t mind me asking, how did she try and get you back? It sounds like your ex is very similar to my wife, and I want her back if she can respect the new boundaries that I am going to have to set.

How did she try and get me back?  She kept asking to meet with me, and alluded to us getting back together - telling me that she left me for my benefit. It was all very sly. She would fly into rages when I would resist meeting with her and she became flummoxed when she asked me if I had rented a new place yet and said yes.

And you'd need to know the context. I strongly suspect that my ex had strong NPD traits which meant that given the position she had put herself in, her pride would not allow her to overtly say she had made a mistake. And also, even though our partners have some things in common, there may be others (obviously) that don't match.  

There was no choice but for me to leave in the end. She was predatory. She could become violent - the worst being her pulling the wheel of the car at about 70 mph the day after a snow storm on the interstate.  That was the day that my father died in hospice, a fight started over my daughter and I was told to choose sides. When I refused, I was told to drop her off at the next town even though we were 90 minutes away from home. And when I refused to do that, she yanked on the wheel. With what I know now, I wish I would have taken her to the police station.

We work for the same organization. Her bad behavior has been swept under the rug for years. And it's not uncommon for people with NPD/BPD to isolate their victims, usually their intimate partners.  Long story short, about 1 month after the separation papers were signed, she showed up at my place of work unannounced as if nothing had happened in the past. I had my lawyer write a cease and desist. Where I live, the law is such that a lawyer would never write such a letter without the sincere belief that he could make it stick. This is the tip of the iceberg in terms of where her mental health could lead.

So - bottom line - each situation is different.

If you are feeling like you are loosing yourself, being coerced into saying things about yourself that you don't believe, fear what others might be thinking about you based on what she might say about you, I'd say that you might want to find a therapist with experience in the arena of what we call "men's issues".  Mine was excellent.  There are many more men out there than we know. I wrote an Master's level research paper on the topic. On one level abuse is a genderless crime. On another level it plays out differently based on gender because of social bias and self perception.

Write back any time.  Let me know how things work out. Regardless of the decision you make, stay or go, know that much of the decision you are making involves personal decision. Your current partner has a handicap that she is not aware of. If you love her, and want to stay, do it with your eyes open.

Most honest thing I can say.

Thanks for this.

Rev

[WhatToDo47]

Hi Rev,

Thank you truly for all of time and effort you are putting in to reply to my posts. It is helping immensely.

It helps so much to know what happened to you so that I can know what to anticipate/expect. I am pretty sure my wife has strong NPD traits as well, as her mother does. My wife, during the discard, said things such “you’ll never find someone as tall, beautiful, etc etc as me,” and I have seen her pride prevent her from ever admitting she made a mistake. In 6 years, I don’t think I’ve ever heard her say sorry, and if anyone insults her she says the “dragon lady” comes out, and you can see it.

Your recounting of your ex’s slide into violent, predatory behavior is terrifying. Awful you had to go through that. I could picture being in that situation one day. Thank you for scaring me straight. It’s honestly like looking into a mirror for me, which is humbling. My wife isn’t as far along the slide as yours got, but she is rapidly getting there, including calling the police and claiming I had locked her out and was abusing her. This happened when she came back to get her car. I wasn’t even home, which is what we agreed on beforehand. 3 police cars came, and nothing happened because I wasn’t even there. The leasing office at our apartments told me about this later.

My wife has definitely tried to isolate me over the years, from my family and friends, one by one she picks fights over trivial or non-existent matters and makes me choose sides. I’ve always chosen her, but now I see that it’s abusive.
I am doing a weekly therapy session with a therapist who is experienced with men who are in relationships with PD spouses. He is actually a religious authority for my religion as well and a marriage counselor, which means that he tries to avoid divorce, but he is telling me to cut off all contact. He is concerned for my safety, and your experiences are getting me to that point as well.

“If you love her, and want to stay, do it with your eyes open.” Best advice yet.

Is there a way for me to access your research paper? I would love to read it. I will keep you posted.
As of now, I’m still in the stay camp, but with strong boundaries and wide open eyes.