Such a bad day yesterday…

[Depression = 72% of members]

I just wanted to reflect on what went down yesterday, my wife treated me terribly and I let her and I’m so exhausted and upset. Just wanted to get people’s thoughts…
My wife and I received an unexpected good offer on our house. With Christmas coming, lockdown looming, two sick kids and 3 dogs, the pressure is on to find a house to buy. And we have to move far away so we can pay off our mortgage and not need a mortgage as we’re in too much debt to get one.
So we found a nice house and it was decided I would visit alone yesterday. I drove for ten hours on my own yesterday. I didn’t mind because it’s a one off and when I agreed I thought the house may not be available. The plan was that I would ring my wife on video call when looking round the house.
I had already stopped off at my parents on the way and I think it annoyed my wife as I didn’t tell hey put ask of it was ok. I was running 15 mins late by the time I arrived at the house at 5.15pm. My wife was annoyed as she had wanted to put in an offer before the estate agents closed at 5.30pm, if we liked the house. Then I couldn’t find the house as the sat nav took me to the right road but even numbers instead of odd. She had wanted to be on the phone as I approached the house but then I had to end call to ring estate agents for help.
When I got to the house I parked on the drive and rang her… She screamed, “GO AWAYYYYYYY” and hung up on me. I messaged saying I’m at the house. Then the owner opened the door.. I messaged saying, he’s opened the door please ring me. She didn’t answer. So I got out of the car and chatted to him on the driveway saying I’m trying to get hold of wife for video call. Meanwhile was texting saying, I’m with owner, we’re outside, please call me, she’s like, “what’s the point?” So then the owner said shall we go in and I said ok. And I felt so rude cos the whole time he was showing me round talking to me, I was trying to call and text me wife. She was texting me, “we were supposed to see it TOGETHER!” And how I’m so selfish etc and how I’m ignoring her but I was constantly texting saying please call it’s not too late and trying to call her. So I’m the end I left the house. Started driving away and she rings me really angry. Apparently I should have said to him, “I’ll just sit in my car until my wife’s ready and then I’ll come and knock on the door” but she didn’t tell me this. Apparentlyi should have known she was dealing with the baby and would be ready soon. Anyway I stopped the car and I said, look it’s not too late, I could go back and do the call now. And she’s saying no what’s the point? But I had the feeling she would agree if I have her enough time. But it was gone 6pm and going to take 4 hours to get back to my parents where I was going to be staying. So I said I’ll give you ten minutes to change your mind… as I’m tired and I want to get going… but she would not be controlled like a child. At one point I went back to the house and again said ten minutes knowing I shouldn’t back down but then she wouldn’t agree. But I really wanted us to both see the house as planned when I’d gone all that way. And then I drive away from the house and then I went back. So tired and just wanting to get too mum and dads. I texted mum and said, I’ve been held up at the house and wont be there till gone 12.30 is it still ok to stay. I had visions of collapsing into my mothers arms in a ball of tears, telling her what a mess my marriage was, how badly I get treated, how worried I am about our children…
Eventually my wife agreed to come do the video call at the house. It was over two hours later but the sellers were fine with it.
I got to mum and dads about 12.45am. Exhausted. Mum and dad asleep. No one to cry to. This morning I was up early and had to drive back for work. I saw mum and told her nothing. I used to wonder if I’d ever become strong as I was always in tears. Now I only cry in private. We’ve put in an offer on the house and it’s been accepted. End of the day I got what I wanted, for her to see the house, and she got what she wanted, to see the house. But why be so cruel? Bpd don’t realise that driving ten hours on your own is worthy of being grateful and letting you get going at a reasonable time do they? I wonder if it was all to stop me spending time with my parents. But I’ll never know.

[thankful person]

I just wanted to reflect on what went down yesterday, my wife treated me terribly and I let her and I’m so exhausted and upset. Just wanted to get people’s thoughts…
My wife and I received an unexpected good offer on our house. With Christmas coming, lockdown looming, two sick kids and 3 dogs, the pressure is on to find a house to buy. And we have to move far away so we can pay off our mortgage and not need a mortgage as we’re in too much debt to get one.
So we found a nice house and it was decided I would visit alone yesterday. I drove for ten hours on my own yesterday. I didn’t mind because it’s a one off and when I agreed I thought the house may not be available. The plan was that I would ring my wife on video call when looking round the house.
I had already stopped off at my parents on the way and I think it annoyed my wife as I didn’t tell hey put ask of it was ok. I was running 15 mins late by the time I arrived at the house at 5.15pm. My wife was annoyed as she had wanted to put in an offer before the estate agents closed at 5.30pm, if we liked the house. Then I couldn’t find the house as the sat nav took me to the right road but even numbers instead of odd. She had wanted to be on the phone as I approached the house but then I had to end call to ring estate agents for help.
When I got to the house I parked on the drive and rang her… She screamed, “GO AWAYYYYYYY” and hung up on me. I messaged saying I’m at the house. Then the owner opened the door.. I messaged saying, he’s opened the door please ring me. She didn’t answer. So I got out of the car and chatted to him on the driveway saying I’m trying to get hold of wife for video call. Meanwhile was texting saying, I’m with owner, we’re outside, please call me, she’s like, “what’s the point?” So then the owner said shall we go in and I said ok. And I felt so rude cos the whole time he was showing me round talking to me, I was trying to call and text me wife. She was texting me, “we were supposed to see it TOGETHER!” And how I’m so selfish etc and how I’m ignoring her but I was constantly texting saying please call it’s not too late and trying to call her. So I’m the end I left the house. Started driving away and she rings me really angry. Apparently I should have said to him, “I’ll just sit in my car until my wife’s ready and then I’ll come and knock on the door” but she didn’t tell me this. Apparentlyi should have known she was dealing with the baby and would be ready soon. Anyway I stopped the car and I said, look it’s not too late, I could go back and do the call now. And she’s saying no what’s the point? But I had the feeling she would agree if I have her enough time. But it was gone 6pm and going to take 4 hours to get back to my parents where I was going to be staying. So I said I’ll give you ten minutes to change your mind… as I’m tired and I want to get going… but she would not be controlled like a child. At one point I went back to the house and again said ten minutes knowing I shouldn’t back down but then she wouldn’t agree. But I really wanted us to both see the house as planned when I’d gone all that way. And then I drive away from the house and then I went back. So tired and just wanting to get too mum and dads. I texted mum and said, I’ve been held up at the house and wont be there till gone 12.30 is it still ok to stay. I had visions of collapsing into my mothers arms in a ball of tears, telling her what a mess my marriage was, how badly I get treated, how worried I am about our children…
Eventually my wife agreed to come do the video call at the house. It was over two hours later but the sellers were fine with it.
I got to mum and dads about 12.45am. Exhausted. Mum and dad asleep. No one to cry to. This morning I was up early and had to drive back for work. I saw mum and told her nothing. I used to wonder if I’d ever become strong as I was always in tears. Now I only cry in private. We’ve put in an offer on the house and it’s been accepted. End of the day I got what I wanted, for her to see the house, and she got what she wanted, to see the house. But why be so cruel? Bpd don’t realise that driving ten hours on your own is worthy of being grateful and letting you get going at a reasonable time do they? I wonder if it was all to stop me spending time with my parents. But I’ll never know.

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[formflier]

Have you guys accepted the offer on the house?

I'm sorry it was such a tough day for you.

What do you imagine your life would be like if no "house stuff" was going on?

Best,

FF

[thankful person]

FF, yes we have accepted the offer, it’s more than our original buyer was paying and much much more than the cash investor was offering. Difficult question: my wife always creates stress and drama so it’s hard to say, but I guess the house stuff is certainly adding to the stress right now. Along with Christmas, our two babies, plus we have two extra dogs staying at the moment which is stressful but this is my wife’s work and she has just started earning again which is really going to help financially and for her confidence to know that she is contributing a bit. Funny I always looked forward to us having kids cos my wife was always complaining of being bored and I thought when we have kids you won’t have time to be bored. She says she likes being busy but she does get stressed.

[Notwendy]

It's good that your wife has an interest which also helps with the finances.

I think the situation you described was an unavoidable set up in a way. First, you were tired and stressed- the trip was necessary but tiresome. Your wife was also home all day with both babies, and that is stressful. In general you are the one who meets/mitigates her emotional distress. This isn't necessarily fair, but you are committed in this relationship knowing your role as caretaker. However, when you are feeling stressed, you do wish some of that would be reciprocated. You had hoped she'd be considerate of your feelings at the moment, and considerate of the homeowner. But is this something she's capable of? Maybe, or maybe not but first, you need to take care of your needs.

I think you did some things to take care of you. Stopping at your parents, staying there to get some rest. If you are exhausted, you need to take care of yourself- you don't have the emotional reserve to take care of someone else. However, the pattern in your marriage is that your wife does look to you to meet her emotional needs and so may get angry when you take care of yourself. Self care is essential to you. If you are waiting for her to grant you permission to do this, it's not likely to happen. You need to take charge of this.

Self recognition can help you avoid or dampen down these situations. If you are tired, stressed, hungry, or emotionally needy, stop, take care of yourself. A natural consequence of this drama may have been to say to her. " the homeowner is here and I need to keep this appt. If you are not available then I will look at the house on my own" and then not keep texting her. However, you wanted the house and wanted her input before deciding- in a tense housing situation- so that wasn't a boundary you wanted to have as well.

I'd just brush this off as a difficult moment and try to let it go and learn from it- the lesson being self care. You have the right to see your parents if you want to and staying with them to rest was self care.

[babyducks]

Hello Broken Person,

I think Notwendy wrote a wonderful post that touched on so many important things.   

. In general you are the one who meets/mitigates her emotional distress. This isn't necessarily fair, but you are committed in this relationship knowing your role as caretaker.

I agree.  100% agree.    You've identified that you are the caretaker and are working diligently to find balance in the role.     its tough to find balance.   

you need to take care of your needs.

also 100% agree.     you over spent your own resources to make this trip, under stressful conditions.    make thoughtful conscious decisions to protect your own energy and emotions is a skill you can grow.   all of us have trouble when we are tired or stress.   

However, the pattern in your marriage is that your wife does look to you to meet her emotional needs and so may get angry when you take care of yourself. Self care is essential to you. If you are waiting for her to grant you permission to do this, it's not likely to happen. You need to take charge of this.

how do you think you can incorporate the lessons from this trip as you move forward into the move?    how can you take care of yourself?    how can you manage your energy and emotions, so you don't get sucked into an emotional maelstrom?

think of these kinds of skills like muscles that you have to exercise.    no one starts out running a marathon,  they start with small goals and lighter exercise and works their way up.

'ducks

[formflier]

   its tough to find balance.   
 

And..."balance" is often a shifting target.

For instance, on an already stressful trip it might be wise to bring up the extra stress early and lower expectations that your wife may have.

Or...it could go the other way,  you know trip will be stressful so you are deliberate about extra self care and extra healthy "input" into your wife.

Really will likely depend on how much "gas" you have in your tank to get done what is on your plate for the day.

Best,

FF

[thankful person]

Thank you not Wendy, ducks, FF for your input, today and the past few months. You guys are amazing and your advice and support has made so much positive difference to me, my life, my marriage, my children.
I continue to learn and improve. Would you say that, to continue a relationship with someone with bpd, insofar as that they will remain “emotionally disabled”, am I right in understanding that I will have to continue “caretaking” to some extent, but can do this in ways that are more healthy for the two of us (and our children)?
I just wanted to say, I am pleased that I felt I could stop at my parents, without asking my wife’s permission or opinion, and to stay with them.
Christmas went pretty well. It started badly on Christmas Eve when I brought the eldest child up to bed and wife was in a bad mood cos I took too long, she snatched the child from me and I said, “love you child” Usually she takes her gently and we all say I love you and exchange kisses. So of course wife was like “F you if you only love her not me” I texted saying I was concerned for the child because she looked afraid. She texted back, “you don’t love me”. And i was sending a text explaining how I was delayed cos we couldn’t find favourite teddy… I decided to ignore the comment about “you don’t love me”. This was a good call. The next day was Christmas and it wasn’t mentioned. In the past I would have spent the whole night texting her trying to prove my love. And then we would have had a massive row about it in the morning. I know I want to work to protect my children from the very occasional snatching them from me that she does. I’m not sure what I can do though. But Christmas, our wedding anniversary, my daughter’s recent birthday… (All occasions which have historically caused so much stress and drama) all went well due to skills I have learnt on here.
She opened the photo box I’d made and at first said, “I love it” then a moment later my daughter was trying to get at it and all and my wife said that I should have told her it would take time to look at and it and it wasn’t a good time and it was totally ruined for her. So she hasn’t looked at it since but I don’t mind. So again, what could’ve become a massive row… didn’t.
I also had asked mum to get me some boots for Christmas and again hadn’t asked wife’s opinion or permission because I knew she wouldn’t like them. She teased me a little over the boots and said I’ll look hilarious if I wear them with jeans. And I just said, “you can laugh at me then “. Making it clear that I will now wear what I want whether she likes it or not.
Another wonderful thing was the feeling of the freedom to video call my parents on Christmas Eve, and also Christmas Day when my uncle and cousin were there too. And I also video called my brother on Christmas Day, which I haven’t done since my relationship began seven years ago. It was the first time he had seen my children, even though it was a video call it’s better than photos and they also got to “meet” him.
Things are changing here, and I know we have a way to go, but I’m feeling much more positive about the future. My wife even bought me some piano books for Christmas #shockedfaceemoji She understands that I’m serious about boundaries and self care even though I’m new to it. So I know she’s wanting to play some part in what I play, to feel she retains some control… but it’s progress and I’m happy about it.
“What are you dreaming of? Is it the kind of love that’ll be there when the world is at its worst?” Liam Gallagher
I became obsessed with that song around the time I found this forum. To find people who understand and support, who give their time for nothing, who have amazing advice about bpd… I never expected this but I couldn’t have asked for anything better. Thank you all again.

[Notwendy]

Would you say that, to continue a relationship with someone with bpd, insofar as that they will remain “emotionally disabled”, am I right in understanding that I will have to continue “caretaking” to some extent, but can do this in ways that are more healthy for the two of us (and our children)?

BPD is a spectrum disorder, so how emotionally impaired a person is can vary. You've worked with children with autism, which is also a spectrum and while you can see that the impairment is there to some extent, it can vary.

One aspect of the PD's is that these disorders are fixed and hard to change- but there can be improvement if the person themselves is committed to doing the work to change. It's not hopeless, but also I think that it isn't frequent that someone with a PD commits to that from what I have observed. One reason is the tendency to denial, projection and the discomfort of shame when looking at themselves.

In addition, they tend to match up with people who have enabling and co-dependent tendencies. People with co-dependent tendencies tend to also avoid focusing on themselves and instead, focus on fixing others as a means of dealing with their own difficult emotions. The feeling of being the more competent one is on the emotional level- an illusion. They themselves are also emotionally impaired in a way and this contributes to the "match" with a person who they see as needing them.

I think though, it's the person with the co-dependent traits who feels the strain of the relationship dynamics and so is more motivated to work on the situation. You have made considerable progress in this by taking care of some of your needs- seeing your parents, enjoying their Christmas gift and ( this is a big one) managing your own uncomfortable feelings when your wife isn't being calm. and not reacting to what she says.

The idea of emotional sobriety confused me at first. I didn't see where a 12 step program might help me as I thought they were about alcohol, and that isn't an issue for me. But these little statements your wife says are a way for you both to get into drama- and people can become "addicted" to drama. A night of drama and emotional exchanged between the two of you is a way for her to release her emotions, and you to get all emotionally wound up. How do you feel the next morning? Having experienced these "drama" binges, I realized that feeling the next morning must be similar to having a hangover. I then began to look at these little digs like " you don't love me" or how you did something wrong, whatever that is, were similar to someone offering a drink to an alcoholic. When you don't react to your wife's statements you are "not picking up the drink" and that's good.

The more you take care of your side of things, the less you enable your wife to lean on you for her emotional regulation. The better you get at regulating your own emotions, the less likely you will react to her moments of distress. How well she will learn to self regulate - that's hard to tell,  but as long as you step in to do that for her, you won't know what she's capable of.

This doesn't mean you aren't going to do loving and caring things for her, or comfort her at times. That's part of a normal relationship. The difference is in the intent. One way to tell if you are being caring, or trying to fix things is how you feel. Often the caretaking feels more like obligation, and you will feel resentful. Such as not seeing your parents in order to avoid her being upset. If you give that up, you feel resentful. However, a gift or a hug, genuinely given, feels different.

[babyducks]

Would you say that, to continue a relationship with someone with bpd, insofar as that they will remain “emotionally disabled”, am I right in understanding that I will have to continue “caretaking” to some extent, but can do this in ways that are more healthy for the two of us (and our children)?

caretaking is not a negative trait unless it's done to excess or as part of a codependent dynamic.    like nearly everything else we talk about, it exists on a spectrum.    and one size most definitely does not fit all.

on the very top of this board is the LESSONS tab.    its always worth a look.

from the LESSONS sections is this link:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/what-does-it-take-be-relationship

and from inside that link is this quote:

Accept the Role of "Emotional Caretaker": According to Kraft Goin MD (University of Southern California), "borderlines need a person who is a constant, continuing, empathic force in their lives; someone who can listen and handle being the target of intense rage and idealization while concurrently defining limits and boundaries with firmness and candor".  To be in this type of relationship, you must accept the role as emotional caretaker - consistently staying above it.

Maintaining routine and structure
Setting and maintain boundaries
Being empathetic, building trust, even in difficult times
Don’t tolerate abusive treatment, threats and ultimatums
In crisis, stay calm, don’t get defensive, don't take it personally
Don’t protect them from natural consequences of their actions - let them fail
Self-Destructive acts/threats require action

It started badly on Christmas Eve when I brought the eldest child up to bed and wife was in a bad mood cos I took too long, she snatched the child from me and I said, “love you child” Usually she takes her gently and we all say I love you and exchange kisses. So of course wife was like “F you if you only love her not me” I texted saying I was concerned for the child because she looked afraid. She texted back, “you don’t love me”. And i was sending a text explaining how I was delayed cos we couldn’t find favourite teddy… I decided to ignore the comment about “you don’t love me”. This was a good call. The next day was Christmas and it wasn’t mentioned. In the past I would have spent the whole night texting her trying to prove my love. And then we would have had a massive row about it in the morning. I know I want to work to protect my children from the very occasional snatching them from me that she does. I’m not sure what I can do though.

this might be a good example to use and work through.   to really dig into and pull apart.    while it happens rarely you have mentioned her snatching the children away from you.   so it is likely to happen again.    having an idea of what to do and how to approach this before it happens can be part of your safety plan   it's important to have one, in a BPD relationship difficult things will happen.   it's a given.

in the past you would have spent the whole night texting trying to prove your love.

But these little statements your wife says are a way for you both to get into drama- and people can become "addicted" to drama. A night of drama and emotional exchanged between the two of you is a way for her to release her emotions, and you to get all emotionally wound up.

Notwendy is right again.    people can become addicted to drama.   we often do become addicted to the constant heightened engagement.  and in our own way create it.

in the past you would have spent the whole night texting which was feeding the drama and not a good approach. 

I am not suggesting you do any of this but I am curious about how you see some of this playing out.   or what you see happening here.

  she snatched the child from me and I said, “love you child” Usually she takes her gently and we all say I love you and exchange kisses. So of course wife was like “F you if you only love her not me” I texted saying I was concerned for the child because she looked afraid. She texted back, “you don’t love me”. 

what I see is that she changed the topic on you rather adroitly.  you noticed the child was afraid.    and was addressing that.   and your wife switched the topic to her and if she was loved or not.    was the child afraid?    who addressed the child's fears and how?   I am assuming that the "f you if you only love her and not me" came later in a text message and was not in front of the child?  please tell me your wife did not denigrate you in front of the kids.

can we look at what your wife said?  "f you if you only love her and not me"  and “you don’t love me”.    what do you see going on there?    what emotion do you think your wife was experiencing?    how was she expressing it?    what was/is your role when your wife expresses something like this.

 if you look back at Kraft Goin MD seven points, which do you see might be needed here?

I think because we live with this on a daily basis, its easy to become consumed by which teddy, and not dig below the surface looking for what the underlying messages are.    I would encourage you to do that.

'ducks

[formflier]

So I know she’s wanting to play some part in what I play, to feel she retains some control… 

So much good stuff going on in this thread.  Lots to reflect on.

I think my quoted area above is a place to apply the "parsimonious" thing.

What would be a better way to think about this?

Best,

FF

[thankful person]

Thank you all again for your input. Not Wendy, that’s interesting about the emotional addiction recovery. I know you mentioned it before. But the funny thing is, I actually spent the whole night worrying, but telling myself, “don’t respond… I think that’s what the bpdfamily would say… then I get to find it what happens as a result of this.” So it was like the addiction was beckoning me and I fought it.
FF I’m afraid “parsimonious” is a new word to me but I looked  it up when you mentioned it. I think what you’re getting at is that maybe it’s not helpful to think my wife is trying to control me with the piano book gift. Strangely, a couple of months ago she was constantly playing her favourite piano piece on Alexa, in front on me. And I’d say, “you know I can play that for you on the piano if you like?” And she wasn’t interested. But since I have announced that I’m going to be playing the piano more often, she regularly asks me to play it for her! And a couple of times she has broadcasted me playing piano live on Facebook. I don’t get it but just maybe she’s proud of me or something. Lol.
Baby ducks, I can see that you are concerned about my wife’s physical and verbal aggression towards and around me and the children. So I will clarify and also wanted to include a small incident from today. The reason my wife was angry that evening was because she spent ages trying to get the younger baby to sleep but she wouldn’t settle. I knew this as we communicate via text as she tells me when to get older child ready and come up etc. So she texted “ready” but I couldn’t find the teddy spent about 20 seconds looking for it. I don’t really get what the hurry was. Usually she wants to quickly get back to baby as she can settle her down with her hand, if she is stirring. But on this occasion she was awake anyway. So as she snatched the child and I said, “love you child” my wife went to say “I love you” to me, as she thought I was directing the “love you” to her. I get why this would hurt. But at the time I didn’t feel like saying I loved her. The “F you” was verbally shouted at me immediately as she stormed off into the bedroom with our daughter. I used to rise to much of this and shout back, but I rarely engage in shouting these days since our children arrived because I don’t want to upset the children. When I texted that our daughter was scared, my wife texted back, “no she wasn’t” and then “you don’t love me”. I don’t know how to prevent the very occasional snatching. Because even when my wife is wound up, I don’t know when she is about to do it. I am aware that I should be keeping records of such incidents and I am going to start this.
Today this morning the baby was falling asleep downstairs in my wife’s arms and she asked if I could take older child into the kitchen with some toys while she put baby down to nap in our downstairs travel cot. I took my daughter out into the kitchen and we were building towers of blocks but then she decided to run back into the front room noisily and I couldn’t stop her. My wife shouted, “for F’s sake!” And put the child back out in the kitchen and slammed the door. She was making the point that I should have shut the door, which would have been a good idea but I didn’t think of it. I don’t think she was actually physically aggressive with the child, but she did make her cry with the door slamming and I was glad to be there to comfort her. A few minutes later she opened the door and said we could come back in because the baby decided she didn’t want a sleep. What I don’t understand is how my wife fails to see that children find it hard to settle to sleep when there is shouting and door slamming going on. They don’t feel relaxed or safe. She is a loving and attentive mother most of the time but I wish I could do something to stop her behaving aggressively like this. It is mostly shouting and very occasional door slamming (but sometimes very bad, heaps of wood and paint splintered off the door one time) and also very occasional snatching the children from me. I think the snatching is generally her wanting to upset me rather than them. And it does upset me hugely.

[ThanksForPlaying]

Helpful thread - thank you. I have a quick comment on the door slamming because it happened to me a few hours ago (and happens frequently). She will slam, re-open, and slam again multiple times while yelling at me. Today the slamming and yelling woke up sleeping baby and she declared "I hope you're happy that he's awake now". I very calmly said as I picked him up "I think it was from the door slamming and yelling".

Her reply was "you pissed me off so it's your fault". Which is BPD in a nutshell for me - finding ways to make others responsible for your own thoughts, feelings, and actions, because they are too overwhelming to deal with on your own.

[babyducks]

Baby ducks, I can see that you are concerned about my wife’s physical and verbal aggression towards and around me and the children.

Yes.   This is true.    I am concerned.

So I will clarify and also wanted to include a small incident from today. The reason my wife was angry that evening was because she spent ages trying to get the younger baby to sleep but she wouldn’t settle.

Are you saying that this justifies your wife's behavior?

The “F you” was verbally shouted at me immediately as she stormed off into the bedroom with our daughter.

How do you feel when things like this happen?

I used to rise to much of this and shout back, but I rarely engage in shouting these days since our children arrived because I don’t want to upset the children.

What do you do?    What do you think you should be doing?
 

When I texted that our daughter was scared, my wife texted back, “no she wasn’t” and then “you don’t love me”.

What do you think it means that your daughter was scared?

I don’t think she was actually physically aggressive with the child, but she did make her cry with the door slamming and I was glad to be there to comfort her.

Again I am going to ask you to think about safety planning.    and how that would look for you and the children.

'ducks

[formflier]

FF I’m afraid “parsimonious” is a new word to me but I looked  it up when you mentioned it. I think what you’re getting at is that maybe it’s not helpful to think my wife is trying to control me with the piano book gift. 

Yes...in general this is similar to "giving the benefit of the doubt".  Avoid figuring out the "motivations" of a pwBPD...most likely they are ever changing...to go along with their emotions that are all over the place.

With all new things...be gentle with yourself on this one.  Little by little your perspective will change.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

OK, I really think it's important to reflect on Baby Ducks question about what you think you should be doing when your wife shoults "F off" and the like.

It sounds like you have figured out things that are unhelpful and are attempting to avoid those. 

Let's put more focus on what you can do and what works...there will be more trial and error.

I'm also going to leave some open questions for the group.

I wonder if you should stop discussions about how other people (in this case your children) are feeling/experiencing emotion?

Instead..I think it's much better to focus on communicating your feelings..."that scared me" 

Last (for now):  The child snatching thing is worrisome.  I'm certainly going to to have to give it some thought. 

Have you noticed if there is less "snatching" now that you have been able to "turn down" the emotional volatility somewhat in the relationship?

When you get time...perhaps reflect on "snatching" and see if you find common themes leading up to the "snatching".

Best,

FF

[thankful person]

Thanks for playing, thank you for your comment, I’m glad to know I’m not alone in dealing with this even though it totally breaks me to think of babies being woken by angry people. My wife shouts and any such behaviours are nearly always blamed on me. The door slamming you describe sounds like what she did when the door nearly came off its hinges.
Baby ducks I find it hard to do multiple excerpts but I want to answer your questions because I would like you guys to help me if at all possible.
I was not attempting to justify my wife’s behaviour at all. I just wanted to give you some more information to understand the situation. My wife struggles with change. The baby is still easy to breast feed to sleep but these days wakes as soon as wife puts her in the cot. Her behaviour is not ok but I feel powerless to stop it. As FF suggested, I am avoiding things I have found are unhelpful.
When things like this happen, I feel devastated and so sad for the children. They’re not even old enough to talk to them about any of it (not that I know what I would say).
What I do is try not to engage with her. I’m ashamed to say this is somewhat more recent and we did have some terrible rows when our eldest was tiny. She was always criticising me for absolutely everything and I was so upset I wanted to basically JADE everything. I also had to raise my voice over her screeching. I now realise how unhelpful this was. What do I think I should be doing? I fear that you think I should take the children away from her and call the police. I couldn’t do this to her. If I felt the children were in danger then I would. I do see myself as a good parent. Not only am I fifteen years older than my wife, but I have worked with children for many years. I do know that most people do not have the patience or communication skills that I have for dealing with difficult behaviour in children. I also know that the hardest job I have as a parent is to protect the babies from their mother. Ironically, having worked with many difficult children, I know that their behaviour often stemmed from having unstable parents. I only hope that I can help my own children as I have helped many others. My wife breastfeeds them and she sleeps with them. If she were away from them for just 24 hours it would end her breastfeeding journey which she has severely struggled with. I am trying to do my best. But please tell me what you think I should be doing.
What does it mean that my daughter was scared? I know that children of any age should not have to experience this behaviour from a parent. To be honest I think my daughter is shocked rather than surprised. She has had to endure various shouting  and screeching since birth, though not as much since our second arrived.
I don’t really know what a safety plan is, but again, it seems that you are talking about me removing the children from my wife. And I don’t know how I could do this as she would physically snatch them back from me.
FF, there has not really been less snatching recently because as I said she doesn’t do it that often. It was more when the eldest was tiny and I was constantly getting screeched at for getting everything wrong etc. I am going to keep records, I don’t have much privacy but posting on here is a record. The good thing is that there has been less shouting since I’ve turned down the emotional volatility. Every day I’m pleased when my children get to have a day without shouting. I know it’s not ideal that there is ever shouting. Snatching theme, it’s usually when I don’t do something I should have done in her opinion or don’t do it fast enough. Then there was the awful time I posted about on here when she asked me to put the child down and stop reading to her (because she’s jealous) and I said no, and she snatched the child away from me and threw me out of the room. I can’t remember many other recent incidents.
Please let me know if you think there’s anything I can do.

[formflier]

OK...thanks for trying so hard to cover all the stuff we are asking.

Snatching:  Can you quantify this for us.  "Not that much" means so many different things to different people.

So...how many "snatchings" in the past week?  Or has it been over a month since it happened even once...or over 3 months ago.

(I'm not suggesting any amount is OK or shouldn't be talked about...let's quantify it first and then try to figure things out from there.)

So..pwBPD do things because they work.  Rage and they get  (fill in the blank).  Demand a child and snatch...they get (fill in the blank..likely control).  Blame other people and avoid self reflection.

One of the ways to approach this is a deliberate listing of "bad behavior" and what it "gets" for them...and then figure out if there is a healthy way to deny or make sure they don't "get" what they are after.

Safety plan:  We may want to start a new thread just about that.  Big picture:  First..identify what is not safe or where the "Red lines" are.  Second:  Create plan for what to do if someone does X.

Best,

FF

[thankful person]

FF, I honestly can’t remember the last time it happened. And I don’t know why she does it. Why the children have to suffer. With the younger baby (nearly eight months) I only remember her doing this maybe three times in her life. She has trouble getting comfortable on the sofa and I’m supposed to bring the baby in when she’s ready but say she got impatient or I came in too soon… it’s like, I try to be ready to give up the child as quickly and gently as I can then to the baby it feels more just a quick pass between the adults, but obviously I don’t want to drop her so I hold her as long as necessary for safety. But my wife has always been more gentle with our younger baby who was so sick at birth. The older child is more independent so the main time I’m passing her over is night time. And I can’t remember if there was another time since the time she didn’t want me reading her stories (back in June/July?) (she was jealous of how I became closer to the older child after the little one was born). The child isn’t asking for stories so much these days. It does disturb me to think that could be to do with my wife getting upset/angry over it (this was not directed at the child but it was in front of her). She’s only two and of course she has many different interests. When older child was tiny like less than one year then I remember more snatching but it’s very hard to remember exactly how much… maybe averaging once or twice a month? What does she get? Is it power? She is stronger than me. If she were not then I physically could refuse to give her the babies. So it’s like she’s representing, “that’s MY child and I will TAKE her from you”. Also because she is the important one who gets to breast feed and settle them to sleep… it makes me feel useless.

[babyducks]

I fear that you think I should take the children away from her and call the police. I couldn’t do this to her.

No.    Absolutely not.    Not what I am thinking at all.

Safety plan:  We may want to start a new thread just about that.  Big picture:  First..identify what is not safe or where the "Red lines" are.  Second:  Create plan for what to do if someone does X.

Broken Person, sadly we have had members here who experienced this tug of war with the children, and it ended up that either one of the adults or the child was injured.

FF is right.    part of the safety plan is to know with rock solid certainty where your red lines are.    when does it go too far?    when does it become too much?  the goal of the safety plan is to never ever need to use it.   but if it does become necessary you know what to do and the safe way to go about it.

you have made progress in lessening the emotional volatility in the relationship.  I think you can make more progress by responding in a healthy way when you wife acts aggressively.     

'ducks

[formflier]

So...a tough thing for me to do was to "let things go". 

Well..it was much easier to let things go when it was me behaving badly..than my wife (but that's another story)

Anyway...thank you for clarifying time frame on the snatching.  I think that is going into a category of "leave it in the past".

There is only so much you can think about "right now"..."in the present" and all that.

Not for even a second am I suggesting that "snatching" or other stuff should have happened...was ok or any of that.  Not for a second...

I am saying/asking...what is the benefit of spending any of our precious time now..thinking about something that will not change.  The past will NEVER change...how we "think" about the past right now "can change". 

Last question from me to quantify/understand the "snatching thing".

Is it fair to say that she has gotten "more gentle" as time has gone on?  Sounds like you can tell a big difference between kid 1 and 2.

And...if that's not fair to say...please let me know.

Best,

FF

[thankful person]

Thanks ducks and FF,
I will start a new thread on the safety plan. FF, thank you for your wisdom about not being able to change the past. The memories of our first child’s first year are hugely upsetting for me. My wife shrieking at me all the time. She had post-natal depression very much triggered by her struggles with breast-feeding. She felt useless as she couldn’t provide for our child and it hit her hard. She admits that she took it out on me and I didn’t deserve it (she rarely admits being in the wrong). No one understands, often not even the specialists, that she can’t be one of those who expresses milk for someone else to feed baby, or sometimes have baby on formula. Her body is like an animal’s where she has to constantly feed otherwise she stops producing milk. We both understand this now so even though my wife had to go for surgery hours after giving birth to our second, and then little was nil by mouth for several days… She continues to breastfeed them both. I am proud of her dedication to this. However I have unresolved feelings, anger at how she treated me and the shouting that our first baby endured… but also regret as I now realise I was trying to be supportive in unhelpful ways, and how much difference I could have made by just keeping my mouth shut more. Yes it is fair to say that my wife is much gentler since the new baby arrived. The baby’s problems are adrenal based so stress is potentially very bad for her. I know my wife feels guilty sometimes like after the door slamming when we went back in the room, she made heaps of fuss of the older one who she had made cry with the door slamming. I know this doesn’t make it ok but I do understand that my wife regretted her actions and I know bpd have anger issues, surely that regret is the first step to wanting to make changes. I don’t think I should discuss it with her though. I don’t know what I would say.