About done

[maxsterling]

I haven't been here in about 6 months - mostly been too busy or just needed to focus on actions on my end rather than dwell.

I've done my best to make it work.  I am inevitably coming to the conclusion that there are many, many things that I have no control over, have nothing to do with me, and no action on my end can make them any better.  I can postpone inevitable but inevitable appears to have caught up with me.  A few things recently have validated what I am dealing with.

First, there have been some serious dysregulations from W over the past few months.  My interpretation is that those have either nothing to do with me, or are in part related to me being firmer with boundaries and not "rolling over".  For example - I am much quicker now to leave if W is being verbally abusive.  I  do my best to tell her where I am going and when I will be back (take a walk - 30 mins to an hour), and this almost always triggers a violent reaction from W (abandonment fear that I am leaving the argument).  W claims this is PTSD, but PTSD or not I cannot sit there for hours while she verbally abuses me. 

There are a bunch of things I do that I have control over that do not help - such as bottling up hurt because of fear of bringing it up with her.  In my mind - she is having a crappy day, her words really have nothing to do with me, and I am better off moving on rather than bringing them up.  The issue comes when she will go on nitpicking everything about me for days, and finally one of those nitpicks hits the button of one of the things I have bottled up.  For example, last night she got on my case about not respecting the things she has bought for our house - completely not fair considering the many holes in the wall, and cracks in doors resulting from her violent acts.  I broke - told her that it was not fair for her to bring up me not respecting something she bought for her house while I am staring at cracks in the wall from her slamming doors. 

Her dad was diagnosed with ALS back in October, and it is progressing rapidly.  She has since painted her stepmom completely black, and this has created many issues.  Mainly she has butted into business that is not hers regarding her father's care, and the end result was her father telling her to get out of his house and that he did not want to see her again.  Normally when this happens he makes up with her over the next few days, but it has now been a month and neither he nor she has even tried to reach out.  The rest of her family is keeping a distance from her because of her mood.  To me, this is validation for me that it is not me causing these conflicts.

One night a few weeks ago I called a crisis line because W was making statement like "I want to spend one more night with the kids and then you will never see me again."  A mobile team came to the house, W refused to talk to them and threatened to call police on them.  I talked to them outside the front door, and W then said if they did not leave our property she would call police.  The crisis team suggested I petition her for an involuntary 24 hour mental health assessment, and said that if she actually called police and they came that they would likely take her to the hospital.  I kept the information because I know in the past W knows what to say and not say so that legally she cannot be involuntarily admitted. 

On another day, W had a dysregulation at a drugstore parking lot.  She screamed, cursed, and verbally abused me in the car with the kids in the back seat.  I told her that I was going to get out and get the kids out and go into the store.  At that point W became extremely dysregulated and physically aggressive.  Someone notified the store manager, and someone called police.  Once again, W managed to control herself the minute police showed up, so nothing was done.

At this point, W is talking about separation/divorce.  I sleep in the spare room most of the time, and frankly it brings me much more peace and better sleep.  I am starting to realize how much less stressful my life would be if we were separated and how much happier I would be.  The problem now is logistics and what is "fair".

W does not work.  She collects disability in the tune of $2,400 USD per month.  That is not enough for her to move out.  She could potentially work.  If she worked part time, she could earn up to another 1000 per month and keep her disability.  The house is in my name (had it before we were married) and I don't want to give it up.  Do I give her some money per month so that she can find a place?  I am not obligated to, but I would offer if it would help.  I figure I can give her up to 1000 per month, and I would recover that easily because I would no longer be paying her bills and household expenses would be reduced.  Is this a good way to approach it?  Or do I just ask her to leave and let her figure it out?

I'm not 100% sure emotionally that I want this yet - but this seems to be the inevitable conclusion and I 100% know it would make my life happier.

Max

[ForeverDad]

You were here 8 years ago with a GF, married a year later, so your children are younger than that?

If you separated or divorced, what would the custody and parenting schedule be like?  That is, is she a controlling mother or somewhat disinterested in parenting?

I would be cautious about offering her support to leave.  Odds are she would try to get even more and more.  Probably best to let the court decide, which is another reason to try to get the best (or "least bad") temp order possible.  If you can't live with her, you know the kids would have a hard time with her as well.

So be proactive and get legal advice from a few consultations with experienced lawyers, family law attorneys familiar with your laws and local court.

[BigOof]

1) Video a couple of dysregulations
2) Ensure you have a video of a dysregulation where the kids are involved
3) Get a restraining order

Then the rest is not your problem.

[maxsterling]

1) Video a couple of dysregulations
2) Ensure you have a video of a dysregulation where the kids are involved
3) Get a restraining order

Then the rest is not your problem.

 

This feels harsh considering W is a person with documented mental health issues and is seeking treatment.  Is it harsh?  Also...not sure what the ultimate fallout here would be.  My fear is that it could make things much worse in the long run.  Some kind of amicable separation would be better.  If W had a job my guess is that she would have already moved out.   

[ForeverDad]

Around here, amicable separations are as rare as amicable divorces.

You're up against extreme mood swings, someone taking mood-associated drugs, emotion-oriented and self-centered perceptions, suicidal ideations later denied, etc.

Plan for the worst, strategize for the best (or least bad).

[Cat Familiar]

Max, you’ve done everything in your power to try and make this relationship work. Perhaps it’s time to recognize that she is who she is, regardless of *documented mental health issues and seeking treatment*.

You’ve bent over backwards to try to fulfill her wishes and things haven’t changed.

Now you’ve got two little ones who are witnessing her behavior and this is impacting them.

How can you best protect your children?

[maxsterling]

Around here, amicable separations are as rare as amicable divorces.

You're up against extreme mood swings, someone taking mood-associated drugs, emotion-oriented and self-centered perceptions, suicidal ideations later denied, etc.

Plan for the worst, strategize for the best (or least bad).

Here is what I can almost guarantee:
She will want to move the kids out of state.
She will try and control my parenting during my time with the kids - want detailed reports ow what we did, etc. And claim I am required to provide that.
She will try and claim I have more financial obligation.
She will blow up my phone with communication on days I have the kids.

What I dont expect us overt abuse or neglect from her to the point I have to take legal action.  Any abuse will be difficult to prove or be just under a threshhold where the law can intervene.

A few years ago I did talk to a lawyer and she said in her experience it is difficult to argue more than 50/50 parenting at the start, that in a typical agreement I may be required to pay about 700 to 1000 per month in support for as long as a year because she has not bern working since the kids were born.

[formflier]

 

This feels harsh considering W is a person with documented mental health issues and is seeking treatment.  

Is this true?  Seeking treatment part.

Perhaps a better way to ask it is "is she compliant" with what her physical and mental health professionals believe is best for her.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Would also add that you should stop trying to solve problems for your wife.

If she doesn't have enough to move out and get her own place...let her solve that.

Best,

FF

[stolencrumbs]

Here is what I can almost guarantee:
She will want to move the kids out of state.
She will try and control my parenting during my time with the kids - want detailed reports ow what we did, etc. And claim I am required to provide that.
She will try and claim I have more financial obligation.
She will blow up my phone with communication on days I have the kids.

What I dont expect us overt abuse or neglect from her to the point I have to take legal action.  Any abuse will be difficult to prove or be just under a threshhold where the law can intervene.

A few years ago I did talk to a lawyer and she said in her experience it is difficult to argue more than 50/50 parenting at the start, that in a typical agreement I may be required to pay about 700 to 1000 per month in support for as long as a year because she has not bern working since the kids were born.

My lawyer told me something very similar in terms of spousal support in the beginning. Let's just say, two years and many thousands of dollars in legal bills later, I am going to pay substantially more than that for a substantially longer period of time. You can pretty much guarantee that when she consults a lawyer, they will very likely tell her she can get substantially more than that. And then both lawyers will find out exactly how much money each of you has, and one or both of them will very likely do their damndest to spend whatever amount that is before they march toward court or leave you two to figure it out for yourselves.  

I think there is some middle ground between it being "amicable" and going "scorched Earth." I do not have any children, and that certainly might change how I pursued things in my own divorce, so I'm not really trying to give advice here. I would just, in general, take anything a lawyer tells you about how things are likely to go with a giant grain of salt. They don't know your wife and they're not going to. You do. You also know yourself. It's very likely that your divorce will not be "typical," and advice about "typical" divorces may not be particularly helpful or realistic. If there's any possibility of a more collaborative, less adversarial process, I would say it's probably worth pursuing that as a first option. 

[maxsterling]

Is this true?  Seeking treatment part.

Perhaps a better way to ask it is "is she compliant" with what her physical and mental health professionals believe is best for her.

Best,

FF

Excellent point.  In my opinion, no.  She was seeing one counselor for DBT treatment for about 6 months.  The counselor became concerned about violence and self harming behavior, and asked W to sign sone kind of agreement regarding that in order to continue.  W then painted that couselor black and went back to her old one.  She had switched from the old one a few months prior because the old one was frustrated that W was not putting in the effort.  Her psychiatrist dropped her recently for similar reasons. 

[maxsterling]

Would also add that you should stop trying to solve problems for your wife.

If she doesn't have enough to move out and get her own place...let her solve that.

Best,

FF

In principle, I agree.  The problem is if we are both at home she wont leave me alone.  I try to stay out of the house as much as possible, but eventually I get cornered into one of those two hour "conversations" that last until 1 am.  She has even woken me up in the middle of the night to start an argument.  That affects my health. It is either I leave or her.  The only way she can leave is if I pay for the means.  She has had years to figure out her own means but can't.

[Turkish]

max, how safe are the kids? Do they witness her physical violence?

[BigOof]

She has even woken me up in the middle of the night to start an argument. That affects my health.

That takes a massive toll. I'm sorry it is like this. Been there, done that. I regularly got yelled at for a dream the BPD had.

If you read all the books on BPD, you'll learn the disorder will take your physical health, too. The levels of stress you have will lead to autoimmune diseases. Not fun.

[maxsterling]

max, how safe are the kids? Do they witness her physical violence?

They have witnessed her throw things, break things, slam doors, and self harm.

[maxsterling]

That takes a massive toll. I'm sorry it is like this. Been there, done that. I regularly got yelled at for a dream the BPD had.

If you read all the books on BPD, you'll learn the disorder will take your physical health, too. The levels of stress you have will lead to autoimmune diseases. Not fun.

You mean like all those things I chock up to aging?  Weird aches and pains.  Stange eczema rashes.   And now I strangely have TB...

[BigOof]

Correct, Max. That isn't aging, that is your stress levels creating autoimmune problems.

[Turkish]

They have witnessed her throw things, break things, slam doors, and self harm.

maxsterling, I'm glad to see you back, but I wish under far better circumstances.

To be blunt, exposing the kids to DV could be considered a crime. I was told this by multiple sources (not here) when our kids' mom punched her then husband (hard) in front of them. D9, then 5, awoke to cops on their apartment on Christmas Eve. That isn't healthy, even if it was necessary.

From your previous time here, you remember the crisis links.

https://bpdfamily.com/pdfs/safety-first-dv-1.pdf

We're here to support you to keep you and your kiddos safe.

What strikes me as significant about these recent incidents, is that she can control how she acts in the face of authority (those who can exact logical consequences for her behaviors). What do you think?

[maxsterling]

What strikes me as significant about these recent incidents, is that she can control how she acts in the face of authority (those who can exact logical consequences for her behaviors). What do you think?

Yep.  One of the reasons my views have shifted.  She claims PTSD "triggers" all the time and blames her behavior on PTSD episodes.  For sure things trigger her into some scary behavior.  But for the reason you mentioned makes me believe she has some control over it, or at least can learn control.  If she was in full PTSD episode mode one minute acting violently and screaming uncontrollably, I dont see how not 3 minutes later she is able to tell police things are fine.  Maybe i dont know enough about PTSD and a self protective means of "switching it off" is part of it.  I have met folks who scream on street corners who suddenly stop and carry on a normal conversation when I say hello to them.

[kells76]

Hey maxsterling, welcome back.

How old are the kiddos now? 5? Are they in school/preschool/daycare at all?

As a previous poster said, don't expect this to be a "typical" divorce. That being said, I hope it can be freeing to you to know you can consider "atypical" options.

Remind me if you have good connections with family & friends, and if they're local or long distance?

Just going to plant this seed now, and you can have it in the back of your head -- if the kids aren't in school yet and you have some family/friend support, you may be a good candidate for moving out with the kids. If it were me I would not write that off as an option. I think there are legally protected ways to take very assertive steps to get you and the kids out, maybe an ex parte order plus mandated parenting communication app plus more, so that your "worst case" scenario of her intruding on your parenting is a nonstarter.

Here for you;

kells76

[maxsterling]

Hey maxsterling, welcome back.

How old are the kiddos now? 5? Are they in school/preschool/daycare at all?

As a previous poster said, don't expect this to be a "typical" divorce. That being said, I hope it can be freeing to you to know you can consider "atypical" options.

Remind me if you have good connections with family & friends, and if they're local or long distance?

Just going to plant this seed now, and you can have it in the back of your head -- if the kids aren't in school yet and you have some family/friend support, you may be a good candidate for moving out with the kids. If it were me I would not write that off as an option. I think there are legally protected ways to take very assertive steps to get you and the kids out, maybe an ex parte order plus mandated parenting communication app plus more, so that your "worst case" scenario of her intruding on your parenting is a nonstarter.

Here for you;

kells76

4 and in preschool.  I think I would need some kind of legal help to ensure I was not doing something illegal by moving out with the kids because I would be moving "out of town".  I fear moving out and staying local because W may stalk, harass, or threaten whomever I move in with.
Actually, that is one of my fears with W saying she will move out - that she will suddenly move out of state with the kids.  If I was to go, as suggested above, the "restraining order" route I think I would need to first have good evidence that W is not safe around the kids, get and serve the order, and then move myself and the kids to my parents' house for a few weeks while W decides what she wants to do. 

What is this "parenting communication app" that you mention?

[Turkish]

With no custody order, whoever has the kids has them. That's why i refused my ex's wish not to file. I hired a lawyer. I spent months using the tools here to validate her, but no way in hell I'd accept no stipulation to protect us all

In California, we didn't need to show up on court. We agreed and she was served by mail. Np process server. No worries about either of us taking the kids out of state without permission of the other parent. With no order, either parent is free to do so.

[ForeverDad]

Very important conceptual change... When you're contemplating that the marriage will fail, then the time has come to start keeping your strategies and options confidential.  No more sharing beyond basic parenting details.  Why?  Because the stbEx, especially an obstructive disordered one, may gain enough information to purposely sabotage your upcoming strategies.

Another legal concept... In the eyes of the court both parents have equal rights to parent the children.  The problem is they're unspecified equal rights so it's "anything goes" and "wild west" posturing.  Sort of, possession is 9/10 the law.  I asked police once to come with me when there was no order in place.  They declined, telling me to get a court order in hand first.  But when I asked if I did go and she called them, they assured me they'd come rushing.  Since I didn't want to risk getting arrested just trying to see my kid, I kept my distance until an order was in effect.

Do NOT share this with spouse, if she makes a misstep assuming she can do no wrong, let it happen, odds are it would benefit your parenting options... All 50 states abide by a procedure that for custody or parenting purposes it takes 6 months to establish residence in another state (not sure but probably also outside the county).  Essentially the law says that if she skips town and moves elsewhere, such as out of state, it will take her 6 months to establish a residency there that a family court would accept.  She can't skip with kids and block your access to the children due to the distance, not until she has complied with the rules and process.  What that means is that you can still file for divorce in your current jurisdiction, though don't wait 5 months to take action, of course.  You would have the legal leverage to have the children close enough for your visitation and parenting.

What happened in my case over 15 years ago was that I documented my ex threatening my life, police got involved and it took a few days but she was arrested for Threat of DV.  (If you have a DV threat or incident, it is crucial you don't sit on it.  Wait too long and it won't have the immediacy of an emergency situation.  For example, you don't call 911 and say, "Last month my spouse threatened to burn down my house."  They'll respond, "Then why didn't you call us a month ago?  Call back when it's an emergency.")  Timely action does make a difference.

To continue my story, when she was released, I was given a temp protection order (TPO) that prevented her return to our house (except to come with police to get her personal effects).  The TPO was in effect for over 4 months until after her trial (huh, Not Guilty) was concluded.  By then she had residence elsewhere and never tried to return.  All these years later, I'm still here.

[kells76]

Co-parenting apps like "Talking Parents" or "Our Family Wizard" automatically record and retain date/time stamps for when messages are sent and opened, and all content. They are fairly well know in court/the legal world and from what I've heard, organize communication in a way that is helpful in legal disputes. I believe they also have options for third-party monitoring, so, for example, a parenting coordinator could also track messages.

It would be the most normal thing in the world for communication between you and your kids' mom to be strictly limited to the app only. This puts major guardrails on her ability to try to jerk you around with demands. Basically (a) you don't have to respond to anything outside the app (assuming it's court ordered, which could be pretty easy to get), and (b) it's a legal record of anything crazy she tries to do/write.

Food for thought...

[formflier]

I'm wondering if you should continue to give her the "benefit of the doubt"...if that the right phrase, and not call police...ask for the commitment and that kind of thing.


Most likely you are right and she will bob and weave and avoid the consequence...but given enough chances...something will stick.

This is not about being fair for you wife...it's about the best possible relationship between Mother and children.

Best,

FF

[sterlingblue]

Another legal concept... In the eyes of the court both parents have equal rights to parent the children.  The problem is they're unspecified equal rights so it's "anything goes" and "wild west" posturing.  Sort of, possession is 9/10 the law.  I asked police once to come with me when there was no order in place.  They declined, telling me to get a court order in hand first.  But when I asked if I did go and she called them, they assured me they'd come rushing.  Since I didn't want to risk getting arrested just trying to see my kid, I kept my distance until an order was in effect.

Wow, I'm going through this exact situation currently that FD described.  I talked to the police two months ago and heard the same thing.  I've only seen my alienated older son once since October, waiting for the courts to act.  Sigh...

We communicate exclusively through OurFamilyWizard now, and it's been great.  It was stbxw's idea; I guess she wanted to get all of my "horrible" statements on record.  The tone of her communications is certainly better on there than it was on email or text (though her constant blaming of me is platform-agnostic ).

[Notwendy]

Hi Max, I have followed your story for a while too. I don't have legal advice or experience. I do know from your story that your wife has a long mental health history. You did try Ketamine and apparently that didn't result in changes. She's violent- holes in wall, unstable.

Is she safe around the kids? Consider that you have enough evidence already to establish her instability. Custody is different from the two of you sharing the same space. She'd be alone with them for an extended amount of time. This is different from  you being around some of the time each day. I suspect you are doing a significant amount of the "work of parenting" each day and she doesn't feel the impact of parenting two twins on her own. That takes patience and emotional regulation even for a parent who doesn't have a mental disorder.

I am not a judge to determine this legally, but from my own experience with my BPD mom, I would not leave my own kids alone with her. I suspect my father knew that too because we were rarely alone with her. He was there, or there was household help, or we were in school. Dad took us out a lot on weekends- she stayed home alone. I don't think she'd be capable of having sole custody.

I think a frank discussion with a lawyer about the situation and your wife's issues would let you know what your options are.

FF did mention the "best relationship between mother and child". From my own experience, the relationship between a parent and child also depends on the capacity of the parent to have a relationship with their child. The relationship between my BPD mother and I has been a difficult one, not for lack of trying on my part both as a child and an adult. Consider how much you have tried and how effective this is- and you are an adult.

Consider too, that the "best possible relationship" for us also depended on her having help with kids because I don't think she could handle it. It wouldn't be good for her to be placed in that situation.

As to when you feel you have had enough, that's up to you Max, but for custody, I would be very open with your wife's behavior and mental health history to secure the best situation for the kids.

[kells76]

I think a frank discussion with a lawyer about the situation and your wife's issues would let you know what your options are.

Or a couple of lawyers -- private initial consultations. You don't have to "do anything" with the info you get, though if you need to, you will be much better prepared to understand how things typically go down in your area.

FF did mention the "best relationship between mother and child". From my own experience, the relationship between a parent and child also depends on the capacity of the parent to have a relationship with their child.

Sometimes people conflate "best possible relationship between parent and child" with "most fair split of time" or "most time possible with that parent". When a parent is disordered, unpredictable, and violent, that isn't the case. The best possible relationship between your kids and their mom could be minimal time with her, but because it's minimal time, she can hold it together better and be more focused on them. A 50/50 split of time may seem fair and "less mean" to Mom, but she would not be parenting at her best during that time. She may do much better with less parenting time.

for custody, I would be very open with your wife's behavior and mental health history to secure the best situation for the kids.

Right. Now is not the time for secrets or "but she's a great mom when she's not A, B, C, D, and E". See about chatting with a few lawyers and please allow yourself to be honest about what's going on. Again, you aren't "required" to do anything after meeting with L's, so there isn't that pressure of "now I have to retain someone"; it's about getting information so you know what is likely and can narrow down what to do that's best for your kids.

[GaGrl]

Do you have documentation regarding her violence -- photos of damages to walls, etc. ? Did these incidents happen when she was not handling the stress of the children? What happens when she is responsible for the children for long lengths of time -- or do you ensure that doesn't happen?

I agree that the mental health issues must be brought to the forefront in this kind of situation. As you begin to consult with lawyers, ask them about requesting a GAL (guardian ad litem) to represent your children's interest. A GAL can ensure that the right interviews take place with medical professionals who can speak to your wife's capacity and capability to parent, then take his/her recommendations to the judge as an objective third party.

[ForeverDad]

When I was first in court, the magistrate stopped me at 6 months back when recounting past incidents.  Most here have remarked that their courts weren't interested in incidents older than 6 months, considering them "stale" or not actionable.  However, you may be able to include older incidents when documenting the ex's patterns of recurring behavior.