Understanding uBPDm patterns to better prepare for them

[Riv3rW0lf]

Hi again!

I was thinking and decided writing down my thought would be helpful. I also like reading your own stories, and I thought maybe this exercise might help some of you as well.  I find that understanding my uBPDm patterns help me better cope with them, because it makes me realize that they truly have nothing to do with me, and there truly is nothing I can do, other than protect myself and my children by enforcing hard boundaries.

I decided to try and understand what compelled my uBPDm to act the way she currently does, but before I get to that I have to start from the beginning. Because I now realize that the patterns and dynamics she exhibits changed a lot over the course of my life, depending on various factors.

When I was young toddler to age 7-8 years old. I was either ignored, harmed or used as an emotional punching bag. If I had the misfortune of being close to her while she went through a strong emotion, she would scream at me. She told me recently she once screamed at me so much that I hid for over 4 hours and wouldn't answer her. She was telling the story as : you had a bad character too, because you were mad and wouldn't talk to me. From my adult perspective with a young kid, I am aware that I was probably scared out of my mind. So I was, basically, a tool to help her deal with her emotions. If she felt lonely, I had to sleep in her bed, even if I didn't want to. If she felt angry, I was the receiver of all her anger. And if she felt happy, then I was shown love. As a child, I couldn't stand up for myself, not against a full grown adult anyway, so it makes sense that she would use me as such. There was no manipulation needed on her part, I was a blank receiver.

I even wrote a book in grade 5 that was called " like mother, like daughter". In this story, the mother was trying to kill her own daughter because she considered her a monster, while the daughter was trying to become beautiful and find love. Now I understand why my 5th grade teacher was so nice with me, I was 10, he knew something was going her. What 10 years old would write this kind of stories? When I start doubting the abuse I went through, I try to remember this small story book...

As I became a teenager and began rebelling, things became harder for her. I was standing up now, so she had to basically destroy my self esteem, probably in an effort to bring me back to a child-like state, where I would feel so depressed, so sad, so bad within myself, that I would stop fighting and just go along with it. But lucky for me, my parents were separated, so I just left.

When I got to a young adult stage, I got my own apartment early. At the exact same time, my brother has his children. And just like that, I was off the hook completely. She would drop by for a coffee here and there, once a month or so, while going to see her children (grandchildren but she called them "the children" and kept calling my nephew by his father's name...). I tried to open the discussion with my brother about those years and how it was for him, but he says there was no issues... Even though I have seen my uBPDm make my sister in law cry, even though I saw him drive 2 hours to drop his children to by uBPDm in crisis in an effort to appease her... He maintains there was no issue. I am dumbfounded by his inability to see the abuse and manipulation there...

Fast forward to now...his children are teenager and I am the one with the small children and now... She is back in my life. Recruiting me as a savior/prosecutor and needing to be in my children life really badly while my older brother is now off the hook, because his children are grown.

So... I am now realizing that my uBPDm has a fixation on young children. They are her main source of love. She needs to be the most loved by them, and I stopped to wonder why that was. Then it hit me: she called me grandma and she called herself mama when we were at her house and I think I finally have an idea of what's going on there.

It's as if, she is trying to relive her motherhood while painting me as the grandmother in a possible effort to get the validation, as a mother, that she never got from her own mother. And she can't give herself this validation, because she was an abusive mother, and not at all a good one.

So there... It is not about me, nor is it about the present. It now feels like she is reliving her past and projecting it on our relationship in an effort to heal something. She paints me as the mean grandmother (her own mother), which results in me feeling like she is trying to push me away from my own children when she is there. She paints me as their prosecutor and as someone to protect them from, while she is the savior, the good mother. But because I am not a grandmother, because they are my children, they need me, so she enters competition mode with me, to become the mother and to get reality closer to her fantasy world.

I am not a psychologist but this just makes so much sense. And it enables me to see the danger in her habits and it validates my decision to never leave my children alone with her, because she will try to turn them against me... It's the only way for her to take my place.  So that's it, she is out of their life and will see them grow at a distance.

I feel better knowing it never was about me. I did nothing wrong and I am a good mother AND an amazing daughter for that matter, considering all I have forgiven to maintain low contact with her.

So to all of you, you are amazing people that went through horrible things, and I want to recognize all of us for working so hard on breaking the cycle.

[Methuen]

Riv3rw0lf,    and  and 

You have done some seriously good work (I call this kind of thing in myself "recovery work").

Generally, I use quoteboxes and pull bits and pieces out of the thread to discuss, but I can't do that here because I would be quoteboxing almost every word, and you've articulated your ideas and thoughts so well.

I just think this shows so much reflection, and growth, and personal "work" on your part.  And that is one way we are different from our moms.  The fact that we think, we reflect, we try to grow as people and better ourselves.  They don't (or "can't") do those things. They are stuck where they are at. 

Thanks for sharing.  That was a rich rich share.  Profound really.

[Methuen]

On second thoughts, there is so much rich material there to discuss and support, but I'm going to restrict myself to one comment (for now  !

She paints me as the mean grandmother (her own mother), which results in me feeling like she is trying to push me away from my own children when she is there. She paints me as their prosecutor and as someone to protect them from, while she is the savior, the good mother.

We all have so much baggage, that I am convinced it is easier to see clarity with someone else, than with myself when I am inside the eye of the hurricane. To that point, I just want to say that I am convinced that you don't need to feel personally threatened by her behavior (referring to herself as mama with your children, and you as grandma, and boy is that messed up). My reasons are thus:  #1) you are a thoughtful, dedicated, loving, and reflective mom.  Your kids feel safe around you. #2) You are consistent with your kids (not unpredictable black/white the way our moms were) #3) You are present with them. #4) You are not your mom. #5) kids are smart (someone else has also said this on another thread).  

She's gonna do disordered things as a grandma.  I'll be perfectly honest, and say that looking back, I gave my mom latitude with my kids that many in these threads on this forum right now, wouldn't consider.  She successfully enmeshed her grandson.  So many many stories.

But you know what?  It didn't work.  

She is so disordered, our son (her golden child, but...for this convo, also our daughter...) grew up with enough other healthy people and experiences, that even they could see she had problems as they grew up.  Now, as adults, they have as much awareness as they can have, without living here, or having experienced her emotional toxicity personally.  She saves that for me.

Our son had two loving, thoughtful, parents who did their best to provide a safe home environment full of love, learning opportunities, fun, plenty of expectations and boundaries, family experiences...and we all bonded.  By "all" I mean the 4 of us: myself, H, son and daughter.  They are 24 and 26 years old now, live 6 1/2 hours, and 13 hours away from us respectively, but we still talk once a week, and our kids still like to travel with us!  And we have fun experiences together, and many great memories of time together.  

So despite the disordered things my mom did (with golden child grandson especially) that I didn't recognize back then, she didn't ruin him, or turn him against me.  This is where I believe love is stronger than division, or manipulation...in the long run.

We made a ton of mistakes and screw ups as parents.  Oh my.  Every parent does.  But at the end of the day, it's the sum total that is important, not any individual part.  Our mistakes are "parts".  Our mom is a "part".  We can manage the size of the "part" she is able to play with our kids.

Every one of our mom's is different, and family dynamics are different, and we are all different individuals, and I can only speak based on my experience and story, but in the short time I've got to know you on this forum, I have confidence that you have all the "bones" to be the mom that your kids need, and I hold a lot of hope that her disorder can't undo all the good that you do, to the point of turning your kids against you "because she paints them black".  But if it ever became clear to you that she was intentionally poisoning your kids with unhealthy thoughts like this in a consistent pattern, I would drastically reduce her access, not to punish her, but to protect your kids from such negative and unhealthy behavior.

I kind of restricted my mom's access in some ways as the kids got older.  I engineered to do things "as a family", which meant we (H and I) were often present.  They certainly had "alone" time with grandma as well, but all her disordered behavior didn't "overpower" what we were trying to achieve as parents.  Home was just a safe, consistent, loving place.  It was stronger than her disorder.

Any attempts your mom makes to paint you black may have either no effect or may have short term effects, but I am hopeful that your safe, consistent, and loving work as a parent is more important and will carry more weight with your kids than the disordered stuff coming from your mom.  Them's my thoughts.   My H and I were a strong team as parents, and on the same page, so that made a big difference too. I'm not sure what your situation is with your partner when it comes to "parenting" and parenting skills.

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm hopefuly that actions speak louder than words.  And kids are smart.  They figure things out.  You seem like a mom with your heart in the right place and trying to do the best you can for your kids.  They will feel that, even with the inevitable mistakes every parent makes.  

Just my thoughts.  

Your post was just golden.

[Notwendy]

But you know what?  It didn't work. 

I agree with this- although I did fear her attempts to sway the kids "to her side". She did speak to them on the phone over the holidays. As it typical for her- she has a reason to call and we are going to speak to her. But in the middle of the conversation she sneaks in some venting and questions them. Yet it didn't bother the kids and they knew what she was doing and they are careful about how they answer her.

A common pattern is seeing children, and grandchildren, as extensions of themselves and a source to meet their emotional needs.  Young children are naturally loving and affectionate and tend to be compliant. My mother has an interest in the grandchildren but one difference is she's not "motherly". She wants them to pay attention to her. She also has a general need to be taken care of, to have people do things for her. She manipulates people into doing things for her to get this need met. In this sense, she prefers older children who can do these things for her. But it's the same pattern- children are a source of meeting emotional need.

Yes, it helps to see the patterns but it doesn't change the sadness of knowing the limits of the relationship. When my mother calls, it's to meet her needs somehow. Our relationship is strained. I don't know if this bothers her from the position of being a mother or because it means less contact with her grandchildren. It's hard to tell with her as she's not affectionate or caring with me and I keep an emotional distance from her.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Methuen

First thank you so much for the validation and kind words, I deeply appreciated them. I am glad my post resonated with you! And I think you are absolutely right that I don't have to fear her robbing me of my children, because they are living in a healthy setting.

Since you mentioned my husband and I dynamics, I would say we are, so far, a great balance to each other. While we don't always agree, we always communicate both our perspective and we try to find a common ground. We are both able to recognize our mistakes (usually). My husband does have kind of a temper though,  and I get defensive... but I've heard many times it is not uncommon for men his age to exhibit some temper.

 the distance I am putting between my uBPDm and my children is more for me than for them. Because like you wrote yourself in your post, I find time with her to be exhausting mentally and emotionally, just probably from all the bagage I carry, having been her daughter. I "forgave" (still working on it), but certainly did not forget. And so, I still feel bad inside when I notice the competition, or just to be in contact with her overall intensity, with the needing to step in when she is inappropriate with them... It's exhausting. And I can tell my daughter is starting to see it. So I think one visit once or twice a year will be more than enough... I am hoping our 3 hours buffer will help manager her anger toward us "keeping her from her grandchildren". We will see.

Thank you again so much for your reply and thoughts.

My uBPDm also made my nephew her golden grandchild and she is often putting down his sister... But like you said, they don't seem to mind it as much as I do, as her daughter. Even my brother doesn't seem to care. I sometimes wonder if there wasn't maybe a difference in how our uBPDm treated us, based on gender.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Yes, it helps to see the patterns but it doesn't change the sadness of knowing the limits of the relationship. When my mother calls, it's to meet her needs somehow. Our relationship is strained. I don't know if this bothers her from the position of being a mother or because it means less contact with her grandchildren. It's hard to tell with her as she's not affectionate or caring with me and I keep an emotional distance from her.

Notwendy

You are right, it doesn't change the sadness and we all need to grieve the mother we will never have. I find it very... Helpful in my recovery.. to be a non-borderline mother to my own children. I am becoming the mother I dreamt of all my life, and this feeling is my solace when I feel pain or sadness. 

Seeing the patterns, I think, will help me to not react to them when they happen in front of my eyes. To act instead of react. And hopefully to manage my uBPDm without setting her off. Which in turn, I hope, will reduce the emotional hangover.

[Couscous]

Riverwolf, I’m so happy for you that you have been able to so quickly resolve this dilemma with your mother. 

I was wondering if your mother still has any interest in your nephew or has she dropped him like a hot potato now that she has more attractive sources of emotional supplies (your kids)? If she has lost interest in him, do you know if he has felt hurt by this?

[Riv3rW0lf]

Hi Couscous !

First, I want to clarify that nothing is "resolved", but thank you because I read this comment as my writing maybe giving a vibe of peace, and right now, I am at peace it's true.

I've really started working on figuring out "what was wrong" when I had my daughter three years ago and met with a therapist back then. But she wasn't much help, it just didn't click, so I ended up working with my own unconscious by triggering lucid dreaming (turns out it really is a thing) and basically asking myself questions. But it took me .. 3 years and a half of active thinking with bouts of no contact with her to realize she was borderline. It actually took my last visit at her house in November. I think it will take me the rest of my life to really resolve everything it means for me though. But figuring out she was mentally ill was a huge help. Before that I remained trapped in the guilt/shame. Now I know it has nothing to do with who I am as a person.  I still have the feelings popping up here and there, and the doubts, but I then try to remember : it's normal, that's the programing I need to deprogram. That's why I am here doing this work.

To answer your question. No she hasn't given up on him. She is still in conflict with his mother. She says his mother treats him badly and is a bad mother, and prefers her daughter instead of her son. It's her excuse for treating her granddaughter badly (less gifts, et .). She says she is compensating for the lack of love he gets from his mother. For a while I thought she was honest, but I don't know anymore. I remember telling her the reason my sis in law didn't interact with her son while at uBPDm house was because uBPDm was taking all the place with him. Even I could even do bubbles with him. When he was 10, she also "showed him how to clean himself" because no one had shown him, she says... Which for me is a huge red flag. She used to call him on Skype and tell him he needed to come see her, she wanted him to come but her father didn't want him to come, and she missed him, etc ..

Recently she downloaded Pokemon Go and she texts him every morning using that game as an excuse. She still asks he comes visit when it's been too long, so he has to go at least once a month to appease her. He is 12 now. So we will see how long this will continue.

Last time they visited, I was there, and I could tell he felt obligated to be upstairs with her. I had offered him to watch a Japanese show with me (he loves anime) and he wanted to but in the end, he didn't come until my uBPDm went to bed. While his programming is less important, he still takes care of her a lot.

That's my own perspective anyway. My brother doesn't open up about it much, and I am not very close with my nephew, since I've been living far away for 5 years now.

[Notwendy]

There's a lack of boundaries in that relationship. Reading about it feels creepy. While it's not at the level of molestation, I'd be furious if my mother helped my kids with hygiene at age 10.

Pokemon? Really? I did  take the kids sometimes to where they could "catch" them when Pokemon Go came out, but it was their game to play- with their peers. I know who some of the Pokemon characters are, but I don't play the game myself. I think they'd feel I was getting into their space if I did- this was their game that they shared with kids their own ages.

As their parent, we love and support them, and show a interest because we care about our kids, but we are not their peer. That's a boundary. Adolescents want their own space. Sometimes we'd do something like watch their shows on TV with them and I enjoy them too, but still, they know I am their parent, not their peer. Sounds like your mother's boundary with that isn't clear.

With my mother, she crosses the boundary between showing interest and prying - and the prying feels manipulative. By the time my kids were in college, I left it up to them to decide what to share with me. I knew their classes in general,  but not the details. So long as they were on track to graduate and were making decent grades, I wasn't concerned. I didn't know every detail of their personal lives. When I'd speak to my mother, she'd ask questions but if I said I didn't know, she'd assume I knew but wasn't telling her.

I understand where she got this idea- it's because she asks and shares TMI and I had boundaries on personal or emotional information- because that is an opportunity for her to be manipulative or hurtful later. But it's also being respectful of my kids as being separate individuals- their personal information is their choice to share with either me or my mother. A parent with a PD sees the child as an extension of themselves- and so also acts as if she's entitled to personal information about my kids, but she's not.

Making her grandchild, your nephew, her emotional caretaker and acting like his peer is crossing a boundary. This is not an equal relationship. The age gap gives her an advantage that his peers don't have in terms of her ability to manipulate him. It's using him to meet her need,  but it's not what he needs.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I agree with you Notwendy that my uBPDm definitely has crossed boundaries into my brother's family. The dynamic there is really strange, actually.

I went to visit this summer and my sister in law, in front of both her children, told me that her daughter was amazingly good with young children and adults alike, and she was so mature and nice ... While her son is basically invisible. He never talks, etc. I remember feeling really bad and looking at him and I think I said something along the line of : well, he is not invisible to me, he has a strong presence. I just didn't understand why she would say something like that in front of him.  So their family dynamics itself seems off.

My brother really embraced the rescuer role he was put in at an earlier age and it's part of his job now. he told me recently he had done a demonic exorcism on a woman ..to which I answered : you know, I am a very rational person so maybe we should talk about something else. We are very very different and his vision of our mother is also very different. When I breached the subject on borderline disorder, he said we were all a bit borderline. And this is while doing his role of blaming me for hurting our mother. He was telling me I had hit her pretty hard by leaving. And I told him I wouldn't discuss it with him. And he backed off. But he will never recognize she is sick. He is the kind to believe that as long as you feel anger or pain, then you haven't healed and you need to confront the source of your pain. For me .. I don't think it is possible to ever completely heal and feel absolutely no pain, we can't just forget... We can manage our pain though, and use it as a motor of change. He told me, recently as well, that he felt numb, like he didn't feel attached to anyone, not even his children...which is actually why I told him about BPD and how we were raised, but ... Like I said, he won't recognize it. He is deep into the rescuer role, very deep.

All this to say... Those children have been living in a community where they are encouraged to do thing for the community, without being paid or getting anything in return...like cleaning rooms of their parents' company (they rent spaces to sleep in the forest) but they don't get anything. "it's for the community". I offered my niece, when we come back to live closer, to watch my daughter sometimes, and told her that would give her a little bit of money to buy some things she likes. And she said no no, she is my cousin, you shouldn't have to pay me. And I said.. well.. how about I bring you shopping then? And I could tell she would be very happy about that. I felt... She is expected to do a lot of things without getting anything in return.

And I get having children helping around the house, but I draw a line when it's working for their company and the community VS helping with regular house chores...  It just felt off, how she answered she just had to do it.

So I have no idea what's going on there. but those children are incredibly mature and I have no idea if they are teaching them about healthy boundaries.

As for uBPDm... Playing pokemon is one thing (and I agree with you, it's not a game that is really interesting for adults), but the unhealthiness is that she uses the game as a window into my nephew's life. If he doesn't send her her morning gifts for her Pokemons, she asks him why? Was he busy? What was he doing? She expects him to do it, and if he doesn't, he owes her an explanation which to me is just terrible.

But then ... What can I do? I am moving closer to my niece and nephew but in the end ... It's my brother's family. And since I am not on the inside, there is just not much I can do, other than invite them over to my house over a week end once in a while to just relax in the pool and enjoy themselves. They barely know me. But it does show me that, when she gets access to the grandchild, while the weight is lifted from her own child, my uBPDm will attach herself to her grandchild in a very intense way. So I will teach my children about boundaries that's for sure.

My mother was always close to my niece and nephew, my brother would leave them at her house for a whole week sometimes every few months plus one week end per month. If she didn't see them for more than two weeks she would throw tantrums and she would see them the next weekend.. sometimes I think maybe this proximity is what contributed to my sister in law and my nephew seemingly being more distant to one another than she is with her daughter, who uBPDm doesn't like as much. They were rougher on him. They expected more. But then, sis in law was in school when she had my nephew and so, uBPDm took care of him as a baby... I think this impeded the mother/baby bond somehow, because uBPDm just takes so much space. She acted like his mother and pushed sis in law away from her son anytime she was there... It was a very complicated setup and seeing how uBPDm is with my children, I can't imagine how sis in law felt, especially with my brother not recognizing the problem. Anyhow..

I think you were right in teaching your own children about healthy boundaries. It's a knowledge we all need at some point in our life !

[Couscous]

My sister likes to talk about how she has forgiven our mother and accepts her the way she is. This way she gets to have her cake and eat it too. She avoids having to make any waves in their relationship by setting any limits on my mother’s behavior, and gets to continue business as usual. As an added bonus she also gets to take the moral high ground and feel superior to me. My having boundaries with my mother is framed by my sister (and mother) as a lack of forgiveness and an attempt by me to punish (persecute) her.

[Notwendy]

Your mother's "Pokemon" game with your nephew is creepy. Talk about FOG and enmeshment. He's a young man. Your mother in his life every morning, obligating him to send her the days Pokemon is just ugh. 

There's not much you can do from the outside but being a kind and loving aunt when you are able to could be a lot to your nephew. I felt that kind of support from my father's family.

[Riv3rW0lf]

My sister likes to talk about how she has forgiven our mother and accepts her the way she is. This way she gets to have her cake and eat it too. She avoids having to make any waves in their relationship by setting any limits on my mother’s behavior, and gets to continue business as usual. As an added bonus she also gets to take the moral high ground and feel superior to me. My having boundaries with my mother is framed by my sister (and mother) as a lack of forgiveness and an attempt by me to punish (persecute) her.

Wow, this hit home !

Sounds similar to how my brother sees my mother and my relationship. He doesn't meddle (not on my end because I won't engage with him), but he does comment on how "I was hard on her" and how "she is our mommy", not mother, no mommy.

I remember reading some of your posts about your relationships with your siblings. Do you get somewhat along with them? You mentioned your brother talking about how your mother was dangerous, do you get along with him?

[Riv3rW0lf]

There's not much you can do from the outside but being a kind and loving aunt when you are able to could be a lot to your nephew. I felt that kind of support from my father's family.

I will certainly try, but I have to be honest that I am scared of the push back it might bring with uBPDm.

How did they show support if you don't mind me asking ?

[Notwendy]

The idea of us kids being home all day out of school was probably something that didn't appeal to BPD mom. My father's relatives opened their homes to us when school was on breaks and we spent time with them then. They didn't do anything out of the ordinary but being with them felt wonderful. They loved us. We weren't afraid of them. We got a bit of "normal" with them.

Just be yourself when you are with your nephew. You are the "normal" and the example of unconditional love for him.

[Couscous]

I remember reading some of your posts about your relationships with your siblings. Do you get somewhat along with them? You mentioned your brother talking about how your mother was dangerous, do you get along with him?

Our sibling relationships are a complete mess — which is not at all surprising. I have been NC with BPD brother #1 for almost a year and my sister, who is his enabler, has been giving me the silent treatment over this. (She told me that if I do not repair my relationship with him that she would not be able to have a relationship with me…) She and BPD brother#2 haven’t been on speaking terms since 2018. I recently realized that I was enabling BPD brother#2 and so have tried to establish some boundaries, so he has been giving me the silent treatment now. My brothers have been estranged from each other for 20 years as they are both competing for the title of MVP (Most Victimized Person) and recently went complete NC with each other. We also have five other much younger half-siblings who we aren’t close to.

My mother and her sister are estranged, and my father and his sister hate each other, so we seem to have combined and are repeating both dysfunctional patterns. :/

[Riv3rW0lf]

My mother and her sister are estranged, and my father and his sister hate each other, so we seem to have combined and are repeating both dysfunctional patterns. :/

Well, you are aware of the family dynamics, so that's a change, right ?

My brother once said : there seem to be a moving fight in our family. Because there are always at least two people fighting or not talking. I find distance is the only thing that helps me not being in those fights. Sometimes I wonder if we truly see each other, or if, like your own posts suggested, we haven't been pitted against each other.

Reading your posts made me think of all those things my mother told me about my brothers, as if she was trying to change my mind about them. Things she knew I wouldn't agree with, things I can't unhear.

I often talk about BPDm but now I get why they call it BPD families!

[Riv3rW0lf]

Just be yourself when you are with your nephew. You are the "normal" and the example of unconditional love for him.

Yeah ... I will try to be more present to them. I haven't been around and barely know them. I left 5 years ago and only saw them at Christmas so... I am basically a stranger to them.  I guess we will see how it goes when I move back.

[pennymoo]

I agree understanding helps (me at least) deal with things better. I too have come to believe that my niece has transferred her mother onto me...emotionally, metaphorically &  literally -she kept on & on about how I was her mother & my husband her father now...(She has cut ties with her own mum, her dad {my brother} is dead). She now accuses me/us of doing & saying things we NEVER did/said & says we are her mother all over again!
That said, it still came as a shock and bewildering blow when she split and did this to us.
One thing I did note that she did constantly was have an unrealistic fantasy about what a loving family was/is...in her mind NO conflict at all, everyone always gets on, no problems at all...it came as a shock to her when anyone in the extended family said they had an argument or problem with another family member. She also claimed MY FRIENDS as a"Aunts/uncles,cousins after meeting them just once.
I also read Lynne Forrest's article "The three faces of Victim" (found in Community Knowledge Base: Content to critique for possible feature articles. On this website).
My goodness as I read it! The Persecutor/victim describes my niece as if it had been written as a profile about her. It brought a lot of clarity for me.
I have made the decision to not engage at all & it is actually feeling like a weight has been lifted from me.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I went to read the three faces of the victim right after I read your post, Pennymoo.

It was an eye opener for me as well !

I just realised a lot of what happened at my uBPDm a month ago was brought on by me "not being on the triangle". I remember telling her not to give a dangerous toy to my 8 months old and she snapped. Later on, she gave me the silent treatment, and I didn't engage. I decided to wait for the next day, at which point I reminded her I wasn't angry at her, I just needed to be able to tell her those things. I really wasn't mad. She didn't know how to react so she started blaming me for all sort of other things while I just watched, feeling uneasy.

Even when I think about our last fight... She was punishing me by withdrawing help about a problem. So I started to look for ways to fix it myself. In the end she had to fix it to "keep her role", but I never blamed her into it, nor acted as victim, although I will admit I mentioned not liking being ignored leading to an even stronger outburst on her part. Anyway !

I ended up leaving because it was getting too much for me, as her daughter, to sit through all those storms. I ended up losing faith in myself, wondering what I was doing wrong. But in the end... I truly think what I did wrong is that I didn't engage... So I did well for myself in the end.

They are a lot to handle. Thanks for telling me about this article! Now I know she is actually a Rescuer. I haven't figured that one out at all. Probably because that's the role I tend to take myself. The plot thickens... Lol

[pennymoo]

Riv3rW0lf, Im so glad this article & understanding gave you some clarity too. Honestly as I read it, I kept thinking "yes, this is her". the other thing it has helped me (& from your last post I believe you too) is to think...well, somehow I was "part" of this relationship. Ok, what can I do now to make myself be a better, healthier, well rounded person. I want to be the best possible person I can be, so what do I learn, what do I need to change about ME...because, ultimately we can ONLY ever change ourselves and live our own life.
I am so pleased this helped you, take heart, and a big hug. xx

[Riv3rW0lf]

I am a prosecutor in my family drama triangle... I just realised I have been persecuting my uBPDm every time she has come to visit. She is a rescuer and I am a freaking prosecutor. I feel like an asshole now. I feel like I failed all of them. I know we are all trapped in our role and none of them is healthy but seriously? I made nasty comments using sarcastic tones to her. Even at her house, I might have set the whole thing off by pushing her to her limits with my critical attitude. I mean, the way I told her not to give small things to my son, I was persecuting her, putting it in her face that she was failing. I set her off. She couldn't hold it in anymore. She had outbursts and I was setting them all off.

What the hell is wrong with me, I feel like I want to crawl out of my own skin.

I understand she abused me when I was a child, and part of me just wants to make her feel small because of it.

How can I step out of that? I don't want to be a persecutor to my children and husband, ever. Of all the roles... My brother is the victim, my mother the rescuer and I took the persecutor role. What a trio.  I was the child, I was the abused and somehow I became the abuser of my abuser. Like seriously! I feel like sh*t. Needed to vent.

[pennymoo]

I think the thing is to accept the highlighting of your contribution to the dynamic. Accept and learn from it. Dont beat yourself up, you learned ways of coping, surviving in the past that you can now see were unhealthy, but at the time you knew no better. The important thing is not what you did previously to survive in a dysfunctional scenario, but what you will do in the future.
DON'T now star persecuting yourself, accept that maybe this was you (only you can answer the truth), but take steaps to change it. Meantime, give yourself some care, consideration and compassion (all of which I suspect may have not been given to you in the past by others who SHOULD have given it).
Take responsibility, own what you really did do, and move on to be a healthier, happier and more fulfilled person. Let the world see your light shine as it should . xx

[Methuen]

This is OK.  You are OK.  Things are going to be OK.

Breathe RiverWolf. Breathe.  Long and deep.  

The positive I see in this is that you have recognized you have a role to play in the dynamic.  Yay!  Well done!  I have read lots of posts on this forum where the poster lays ALL the blame at the feet of the pwBPD, post after post after post... And that's ok too.  That is their truth.  But, at the other end of the spectrum, some members acknowledge we may have had a role to play in the dysfunctional dynamic, and I think that lets us move forward and develop skills and character.  However, acknowledging we may have had a role to play hurts.  

Every dance on a floor takes two.  The karpman triangle dance takes 3.  The fact that you can see yourself in a role (and the roles can change in this dance) is exactly what is needed to move forward in recovery.  These are my thoughts about it.

The problem right now is you are beating yourself up badly.  

Who did you learn that from in the first place?

Man we are not perfect, even though my mother tried to make me perfect in her eyes, and demand perfection from me, she failed.  I am human.

We have all said and done things we are not proud of.  But we can learn from them.  Sure, you danced in the Karpman triangle with her, but now that you see that, what are you going to do?  Keep dancing, or stop dancing?

Beating yourself up is not helpful.  Instead friend, this is a time to practice supreme kindness to yourself.  For as long as it takes.  Then you can get your emotions back to baseline, and start to think about strategies to get off the triangle.  Time is needed for that.  It's a process.

I'm not proud of how I was interacting with my mom 3++ years ago.  I know I was part of the problem too.  I picked up a few bad habits over a lifetime of trying to cope with a high conflict mother.  

We can't be faulted for that.  It's not like there's a course in grade school or high school, or college, for how to cope with a pwBPD in your life.

I think that showing awareness, is something to celebrate.  Please don't feel ashamed, or angry at yourself.  If you do, breathe, and remind yourself that you've always done the best you could with what you have.

Now you have new awareness and knowledge.  That can lead to better things.

You are a good person, RiverWolf.  Take this awareness, and do something positive with it moving foward.    

[Couscous]

Riverwolf,

This is exactly the time to give yourself plenty of empathy and self-compassion, and to also to remind yourself that it was your mother that trained you in the art of drama triangle dynamics and set you up for this. Your “persecution” of her, a grown woman, cannot be compared to her abuse of you as a helpless child when you were an actual victim. You do not deserve to persecute yourself over this.

And really, the persecutor role is not any worse than the rescuer role. A lot of damage can be done in the name of rescuing. Like the saying: The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Remember: It is inevitable that everyone on the drama triangle will play all of the roles, at one point or another.

Your mother would actually rather you stay on the drama triangle as persecutor than to get off entirely. By playing the role of persecutor you were actually protecting her, because the only way to really get off the drama triangle is to reduce contact, and that for her is a much worse prospect than a bit of “persecution” from you.

[Notwendy]

Don't be hard on yourself. We only know what we know and I also would have done some things differently before I knew about the dynamics on the Karpman triangle, but I didn't.

It helps me to do better at not reacting to the behaviors as much, but it can still be frustrating. My mother sees herself in victim role and perceives me as persecutor- no matter what I do that is nice. I did snap back at her before I understood the dynamics. I don't now and it's been a while.

For someone to be in victim position, others have to be either rescuer or persecutor. If I am not in rescuer role with her, then I am in persecutor.

One example of how understanding the dynamics help me is a seemingly no drama conversation about her having some construction work done. We had done that recently in the bathroom and I forgot to cover the towels and there was construction dust on them and I had to wash them. So I mentioned she might want to cover up a shelf in the room, as I had forgotten to cover things. I was mostly thinking out loud as I had forgotten to do it myself and so it would have been nice to have a reminder. I didn't tell her what to do.

She then started yelling "how dare you expect me to climb up that shelf to cover it" and then went on "I can't believe you expect me to climb up and do that". That came out of the blue. Of course I don't expect an elderly person to climb up a shelf- but she has help and a neighbor, or the workmen can do it for her. It was a suggestion that she might want to consider, I didn't demand she herself do it. The intent was more "do unto others" as I would have been thankful if someone reminded me.

Without understanding the drama triangle, I would have felt hurt because I was trying to be nice . I did know about it though and realized that she didn't see it that way. Suggestions to her feel invalidating. In co dependency work, we had discussed giving unwanted advice. So I stopped doing that. I don't make suggestions to her. Even if the intent is to be helpful, it's not perceived by her that way. I didn't react to what she said, or try to explain myself, but just went to another topic. Had she continued, I would have stopped the conversation but sometimes not engaging in these dynamics helps avoid them.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Thank you all for your support.

I am in a better place this morning than I was last night. What bothers me the most right now is not even that I persecuted her. lthough I am not proud of it, I understand that I took the role I had to take when I was young to survive her, and so, in her house and the second I am with her, I become extremely guarded and I put on my persecutor role... This will most likely be the last place I successfully take it off. And I accept that... Persecutor Riverwolf says she kind of deserve it... You reap what you sow. I will strive to become different with her and not to engage, but I also accept that little me is awfully angry. It's not sadness, it's pure rage...

No, what bothers me the most is that I remember some moments were I persecuted my own daughter. And damn ... What the actual... I am crying thinking about it, she is so young and I ... When I get tired... I did try to keep myself in check but toddlers are toddlers and...  I understand I am aware, and yes I will work to make it better and meet with a therapist.. I just never realised I was bringing part of the dynamic with me. I mean, she is not withdrawn, it doesn't happen on a daily basis, but the balance is so very hard to keep when I am tired or moody. I don't want her to be perfect, I just want her to be herself and I criticized her when she was just learning to cut a freaking piece of paper.

I am defensive with my husband, every time he just tries to share something that he doesn't like. I am not listening, I just want to be right. How hard is it to just say: you are right, I am no careful when I cook and I do make a mess, I will try to be better. Why do I have to add: if you cooked more, it wouldn't be a mess, nothing I do is ever good enough anyway. I voluntarily hurt him once and he called me out on it. I am lucky he is such a loving man and that he has a thick skin. He is not perfect either, but he also doesn't ask me to be. I am asking myself and it hurts, because I start asking others, and it's an impossible thing to be.

My vow to myself right now is that I will change, I will break the freaking circle. I am thankful I am now aware, and yes Methuen, it hurts like hell right now. But it's ok, I had to recognize that to move forward. I had to see my own pattern to truly heal. It just had to be the worst, didn't it?

I will learn to manage my rage. I will learn to fill myself with love. I will.

[Notwendy]

The best thing we can do is work on ourselves and our part of the drama. Please be kind to yourself- look how you were raised. I do think we take "learned behavior" into our other relationships. One great thing ( that makes you different from your mother) is your self awareness, remorse at possibly hurting others, and willingness to change.

It makes total sense that we take on some characteristics of our parents' behaviors- they are our first role models. This isn't to blame- they are not perfect people and neither are we- but we can work on ourselves and try to do better.

For me, it wasn't as much anger as co-dependent behaviors, and 12 step work and counseling helped a lot. It does help to work with an objective person to point out what we need to work on.

When my father got ill, I was unaware of the drama triangle. I was angry at my mother for how I saw her treat him. Understandably, I was stressed too, and upset over the situation. At one point, I just yelled at her, screamed at her.

Getting angry at her is like "peeing in the wind". She dissociates and then projects it. Her own behavior doesn't register with her. All this did was confirm her feelings of victim, and then, justify her payback and when she does this, she aims to be hurtful.

People aren't perfect and we get upset with each other at times. However, a "normal" relationship has a way to be repaired with a sincere apology and attempt to do better. One person can say to the other "you hurt my feelings" and the other can apologize. However, with my mother, there isn't this kind of exchange. It sounds like it is possible with your H. Your child is young and you can learn different parenting skills.

Self care is crucial. Parenting a toddler is a full time, full attention situation. If you are tired and need some help- think of how you can manage taking care of your own needs.

A therapist is a great idea and can be helpful.

[Riv3rW0lf]

You are right Notwendy. I think it is part of my programming to "look perfect", and so I don't allow myself a lot of self-care.

Everything came up last night and this morning, and I felt distressed. All the rage and guilt, everything I keep hidden in a corner of my soul. But I looked long and hard at myself and most times, most days, most hours, I don't criticize my daughter. My husband is my main target, and I will stop and work on myself.  I had already started to criticize less, but this is another huge eye opener for me, to finally understand WHERE this behavior came from. I truly only just realized I have been abused, I never recognized what she did as abuse, so I will take it slow.

I am actually relieved now because now, I am aware of my own patterns and tendencies. I might be wrong, but I feel like the worst is behind me.

Now with the help of a food therapist, maybe I can start untangling some of my most painful memories and change my defensive behavior.

Again, thank you all so much for your presence on this forum. I love that this forum truly is oriented toward recovery and empathy.  

[Couscous]

I don't want her to be perfect, I just want her to be herself and I criticized her when she was just learning to cut a freaking piece of paper.

Believe it or not, you were actually trying to keep your daughter safe. It was not safe for you to make mistakes as child, so your natural impulse will be to try to prevent your daughter from making mistakes. Again, self-compassion is key, although this much easier said than done if you have a very harsh Inner Critic, which daughters of BPD mothers usually have.

How hard is it to just say: you are right, I am no careful when I cook and I do make a mess, I will try to be better.

It is actually very hard for those of us who were raised by a BPD mother and as a result become emotionally flooded when someone is critical of us. My therapist reminds me that it was actually life-threatening for us as children us to displease our mothers and we will reflexively have a fight/flight/freeze reaction when our threat-detection system perceives that someone close to us is displeased with us. Eventually we can rewire our brains to not immediately get triggered.

It's OK if you make a mess when you cook and that your H complains about it. He has a need for orderliness and although you may want to meet this need, it simply be may not be possible. And that's OK. It's not a personal failing to be a messy cook. I happen to be a messy cook myself. Your H is not your mother and it sounds like he will not punish you for this. You can try to remind yourself that you are safe whenever your H complains about something.

[pennymoo]

"People aren't perfect and we get upset with each other at times. However, a "normal" relationship has a way to be repaired with a sincere apology and attempt to do better. One person can say to the other "you hurt my feelings" and the other can apologize."...Notwendy, you exdpressed it perfectly.
The reality is that ALL humans AT times act in these not altogether healthy & perfect ways. At some stage we can all rescue, persecute or be a victim.
I think the important thing is HOW FREQUENT these behaviours are that makes a big difference...are they a usual, go to, default reaction to any & everything that happens? If the answer is yes, then there may be a big problem. If however, once in a blue moon these reactions/behaviours exhibit themselves, then well, you are human and not perfect. Sometimes the not being perfect is the lesson we have to learn for ourselves (& that can be hard if you grew up in a very unhealthy family environment). 
The key is (as we all agree) to learn from it. By communicating with one another, offering JUSTIFIED apology when necessary & noticing our own reactions and owning them we can learn and become better communicators & have vastly better interpersonal and intimate relationships with others. One of the hardest parts of all this for me (personally), is not that I expect others to be perfect (I dont), nor is it a realisation that i am not perfect (I know Im not well & truly), but rather to be able to accept and forgive MYSELF for the fact that as a human I cannot and never will be perfect.
All this said, this all goes out the door when we are dealing with psBPD...even if you were perfect,it'd still so often be wrong in their minds.
Just keep working on yourself. And a big hug.x

[Riv3rW0lf]

Head is spinning again. Always happen at night, when the kiddos are asleep. And then the memories hit.

I figured I'd use the time to try and figure out another pattern I observed in our relationship. Another post opened my eyes to this one.

I realised that, every time something big is happening in my life, uBPDm somehow needs me to save her, or to care for everyone else but me.

At my wedding, I knew there would be a backlash if I didn't prepare with her. So instead of going with my best friend that day, I prepared in uBPDm room. She had taken a small room with two queen bed, so we were all packed on top of each other. She had promised to do her best friend's hair, and when the time came for the pictures, she made me feel bad that she had to come back on her word and put people out of her room. Her best friend is the one that told her : "it is her wedding, she is supposed to be the focus here, why did you even tell me to come here?" She told me my father wasn't wearing something nice, that he clearly didn't put in the effort. She came to me during the party to tell me about every little possible people who might be hurt and that I had to go take care of them. She made me those eyes she does when she expects me to do something and is somewhat pissed. Then the next day, she got mad because my husband and I decided to have breakfast in bed instead of having breakfast with them, when I had never told her I would. I didn't let her ruin my night, but she sure left a sad trace in it. They left angry without saying good bye. I felt so angry at her. 

Then I got pregnant, and toward the end of my pregnancy, the last weeks, she needed to be saved because someone wasn't paying a rent or something. She called my husband, telling him not to tell me because she didn't want to stress me out while I was so close to delivering. Yeah right. If she didn't want me to know, she wouldn't have called my husband. Or was she testing our relationship, to him and I, seeing if she could tell him things without him telling me? Anyhow...Nothing we could do about it and what we told her to do, she didn't even do. So I spent the last week of my pregnancy thinking of her.

When my dad had a cardiac attack, on the day my son was born, I went down a spiral of hurt. And I remember just mentioning it to uBPDm but she was depressed about the fact she couldn't hold her grandson on his first day. She was mad because I had invited my in-laws instead of her so she offered no comfort at all. She was basically playing the victim card, even though my dad was in the freaking hospital, thousands of miles away from me. Recently she told me she thought her boyfriend had have a cardiac arrest when he clearly didn't. The play was so clear, I remember thinking : "she is that jealous of my father. She knows I love my father, that I worry for him, and she tries to create the same kind of worry for someone in her life. "

I think she could feel the love I hold for my dad when I said I worried for him, and she just had to feel it for herself or for someone close to her. I'm actually not sure what to make of that.

I told her recently I could call her before the 15 of January, and that after that I'd be too busy. She said she wanted to wait. And low and behold : she texted on the 15 requestind that I call her as soon as possible to "fix" our relationship because "time flies". I said "no, you decided to wait, and now I don't have the time to call you." And she texted back she would wait for me to give her news.

She would almost sound normal if it wasn't the timing. The constant testing of boundaries. The constant struggle to gain control over me.

Truly, I just have to keep control, and not engage in any of her schemes. I know when she is fishing and for the past two weeks, I have basically answered like a normal person who doesn't know what's up. I see the hook so clearly, and I just don't bite. And it's like she just doesn't know how to bait me anymore so she is back at acting detached and normal. Just gotta keep it that way I guess.

Next time she wants to be save : it will be no.

[kells76]

I realised that, every time something big is happening in my life, uBPDm somehow needs me to save her, or to care for everyone else but me.

I just have to keep control, and not engage in any of her schemes. I know when she is fishing and for the past two weeks, I have basically answered like a normal person who doesn't know what's up. I see the hook so clearly, and I just don't bite.

Riv3rW0lf, this pattern is one I've seen, too, with the kids' mom.

A couple of months ago, a few days before our weekend with the kids, we told SD15 that we planned to take her to do her hobby that weekend (she has a really unique hobby that requires travel and $$$, but it has good future job prospects so we are as supportive as we can be. As far as I know her mom has not taken her).

The Friday evening of our weekend together, the kids were sitting at the dinner table and basically told us: "Mom and stepdad are going to travel to see Grandma and Grandpa, AND see our friend do their citizenship ceremony, AND go on a fun drive in a rental car, all this weekend... ugh, can't believe it's this weekend that we are with you".

The kids have not seen their grandparents in ~4 years and SD13 said something like "I hope we get to see them before they die".

I commented that I hoped Mom would do another visit at a time when the kids could go too. They said "probably not, it's like a 5 hour drive".

So, my suspicion is that Mom heard about SD15 doing something just for SD15, and that we were providing it and supporting it, and she wanted to bring the focus back on herself. So, she talked about planning all these amazing things for the weekend the kids were with us.

What I really wanted to say was: "If Mom wants you to go, then I'm confident she will reach out to trade weekends". She never did.

...

I think you're seeing a pattern that really happens with pwBPD. When the focus is off of them and their needs and their role as "the best mom", then they do dysfunctional things to bring the focus back on them and to regain their position "on top". Even at the expense of what their own children need. The kids' mom would rather put them in the middle and "make them choose" her or Dad, versus working together with Dad to reschedule, or, better yet, not talking up all this stuff in front of the kids (i.e. if she really is going to make the trip, or has to for some reason, she should not have advertised it to the kids if they could not go).

I think member livednlearned discussed a part of this dynamic over on the "conflicted" board in the past -- that every interaction with a pwBPD is a referendum on who is on top and who is below, who is better and who is worse, who is right and who is wrong. There is no gray area, it's just black and white thinking. There is no room for "both/and"; there was no room for you to love your dad and for your mom to let you love your dad. It was him or her, and she made it clear that she required the role of "the loved parent".

I'm so sorry that happened to you. It is so damaging. I'm really glad you have this space here to process your spinning thoughts and put together the patterns of what happened to you. We are in an amazing position of being able to see the dynamics with clearer heads, and to choose not to do that to the wonderful children in our lives.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I think member livednlearned discussed a part of this dynamic over on the "conflicted" board in the past -- that every interaction with a pwBPD is a referendum on who is on top and who is below, who is better and who is worse, who is right and who is wrong. There is no gray area, it's just black and white thinking.

Yes, I can certainly relate to that. The only time I get a sense of normalcy from her is when we are far from each other, talking via the phone. Then she wears her persona and she seems fine, really. I basically get to see the way she presents herself to everyone else that isn't in the family. Which is why I thought she had changed the past year or so.

As for my father, the joke is on her. Because despite the way I treated him, he worked on him so hard that he accepted me and just patiently, lovingly waited for me to open my eyes. He never even tried to open them for me, he just kept being himself and never ever shut down our relationship. I got entitled, narcissistic (with him), all a result of the brainwash my mother had done (this article you sent previously really was an eye opener about my behavior with him VS with everyone else). He never gave in to my demands, but was always there when I was in real need (emotionally or financially), but the need really needed to be a real need and not a want.

As a result, I am closer to him now than ever. I can laugh with him, be true with him. I can be myself, something uBPDm will never see. Not that she cares for it anyway.

There is hope for your step children. The fact that you and your husband provide a sane and healthy place for them to live in might be enough to lift them from the abuse triangle they are in at they mother's house. It was for me.