Staying Board

[grumpydonut]

Hi all,

I've been reading the staying board for the past week or so, and it has really helped me to feel apathetic about what my ex did to me / the fact we aren't together. That board is full of misery and - if the moderators don't mind me staying - cognitive dissonance / denial. People are dearly clinging to something that is making them depressed.

I highly recommend people read the board if you're struggling with the idea that your relationship could have worked if you did a, b, c. The people there are trying to do a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h and getting nothing but more trouble and drama.

[SinisterComplex]

Grumpy speak your peace always. I would never want you to censor yourself. You may have differing viewpoints, but despite that I have always found what you have had to say to still come from place of respect.

Cheers and best wishes!

-SC-

[ILMBPDC]

hey grumpy - I read that board sometimes too. And I agree with your assessment.

I can somewhat understand wanting to salvage a long term marriage/relationship, especially if you have kids but I think there comes a point where people need to take a hard objective look at it from the outside and realize how unhealthy it is - and how unhealthy it is for the kids, too. And then there are the people who had been in a relationship for 2 months and are dying to get their ex back, despite the emotional roller coaster and sometimes downright abuse - and that confounds me.

For me, seeing these relationships from the outside, seeing these people so desperate to be loved that they are willing to put up with literal abuse in some cases, actually has helped me immensely. I have been able to recognize my own codependent tendencies and my own desperation to be loved in these other people's stories and have started working to heal that piece of me (which in my case stems from childhood trauma).

[ACycleWiser]

I've been reading the staying board for the past week or so, and it has really helped me to feel apathetic about what my ex did to me / the fact we aren't together. That board is full of misery and - if the moderators don't mind me staying - cognitive dissonance / denial. People are dearly clinging to something that is making them depressed.

Just as Dante's Inferno describes a journey through the 7 stages of hell, so does the staying board and it perhaps should better come with a warning sign that says "Abandon hope all ye who enter here".

I have been on that board years ago. I was hopeful, idealistic and perhaps soaked so deeply in a cocktail of all possible extreme emotions you could think of, that i kept clinging to tools and techniques and accepted the nature of the push and pull dynamic as something that i just had to live with.

Years later i look back and discover how much i have grown since then, I think i felt enough fear, powerlessness and frustration for a life time trying to stay. But that growth also meant that i discovered the emptiness of it all, there is really was not much there anymore except the drama, the control struggle and a constant stream of diversions created by the BPD lottery of moods. Amidst all that, the connection i thought we once had seemed to my surprise no longer to existent.

In the last months i felt she wanted to connect again, but it felt so heart-wrenching. recalling that moment still brings tears to my eyes. I felt she was mirroring me, praising me, reintroducing old activities we did, but all i wished is that she would be herself, her own person, reflecting herself back to me, be proud of herself and just pay attention to my soul, not appeal to the old image she had of me. But that is just something that couldn't be.

[jaded7]

You know, I've thought about reading that board, but I think it would trigger me...because I'm not healed, and it will be some time until I am. And my mindset, I'm sure, would be similar those on there. I feel them, I am them, and I cannot criticize them.

Not to say you are criticizing them, I see where you're coming from. What follows is just a little processing from my thoughts as I woke up this morning. Feel free to skip it, I'm just writing it out for my own sake.

This morning I was thinking about a conversation with her I had, just a month or two before it all exploded in an outburst of cruel and demeaning put-downs and belittling, yelling, name-calling and personal attacks.

I'd responded to to a text from her to meet at at a Whole Foods for a snack- last second, no 'hi honey' or 'hello' or anything personal, just 'meet at Whole Foods at 4?'. The texts had become that style for some time, not like in the beginning where they were actual connection and communication, and she had for months been ignoring me (no responses to calls, ignoring texts for days or even a week at a time), not inviting me to things with friends, going away on weekends with friends to her parents vacation home and not inviting me, etc.

I was hurt and confused, because I got an 'I love you' every month or so, and she would frequently call to complain about her ex-husband, forward his emails, texts, to discuss with me. But she hadn't been to my place in months, I hadn't been to hers in months, we hadn't been physical in months, and she was frequently snapping at me, criticizing me, etc. Confused.

At Whole Foods she turned her cheek when I tried to greet her with a kiss. We sat down, I looked at her and then said, in a calm and loving tone, "honey, when you ignore my texts and calls for days or even a week, it makes me feel hurt, confused and dehumanized, especially since you say you love me."

She looked at the ground, paused, and said "I can acknowledge that.". Not "I'm sorry." Not, "I can see how that would be hurtful." Not "Oh, honey, I can see what your'e saying and I'm so sorry, I love you." Then she proceeded to tell me she was spending time with her friends because they 'understand her life', and spent the next 50 minutes telling me all the ways I'm lacking- uncultured, don't read enough, eat sh*tty food, don't go to movies, don't listen to West Wing podcasts, etc. etc. She got angrier and angrier, then stormed out at the end.

She had just admitted she was intentionally ignoring me. She had just admitted she was intentionally ghosting me. She had just admitted her occasional 'busy' texts were lies. She had just admitted to using me as her therapist re: dealing with her ex-husband.

And still...I held on. And still I tried to be 'better'. And still my heart leaped when a week or two later she said to me on the phone, in that cute voice of hers that melted my heart..."I love you".

And then she ghosted me some more, and the snapping and criticizing continued. And ignoring my calls and texts and lunch invitations. Ignoring...no response. And then she was angry and mean at her son's show I bought the $115 tickets to (and had volunteered at as an usher and raffle ticket salesperson the week before), snapped at me in front of her Mom and Dad and sister and niece, walked away from me, humiliated me.

And then she left for her parent's for Christmas without me, without saying a word- no text, no call for 3 days, no card...nothing. At the show her Mom and Dad had both asked me when I was coming up for Christmas, both were excited to have me there, and I had to tell them I didn't know, she hadn't said anything. I spent the previous Christmas with them.

This is clear as day as I write it out, but yet I still long for her, still hold out hope. This is my need to be loved. This is my belief that I'm not good enough. This is my fear that I let the person who I loved- who loved me- down. This is my need to be seen, by someone who wouldn't, and couldn't, see me.

My confusion and pain were legitimate. The messages were confusing and frequently hurtful. I had been told that I was not a priority, not worth responding to, and happily I stepped into the role of emotional supporter for the person doing this to me.

 

[Turkish]

That's an interesting viewpoint, triangulating the Staying board to help with Detaching. You may be onto something. Some there are here and some here are there, IMO, with mindset.

SET, BIFF, Wisemind, Boundaries and the like are applicable across all boards. It depends upon what you want to do with them, and what you goals are, immediate or longterm.

I self-homed myself here after a week or less being there though I lived with my ex for many months until she moved out. It all helped.

[grumpydonut]

Honestly, while the strategies probably "work" to pacify their partners, it's not even close to a happy life.

I understand the staying board is different to this one, and the idea of "stay or leave" isn't meant to be brought up. That said, a lot of the people on that board would probably benefit with some hard truths.

Again, it's a great platform for people on this board to understand what they've escaped from. Some of the situations on that board - caused by the BPD partner - are insane, and far more so than what I went through.

[ACycleWiser]

Honestly, while the strategies probably "work" to pacify their partners, it's not even close to a happy life.

From my experience, they work and help to lengthen the relationship cycle while improving the quality of life of both partners.

On the other hand, you slowly become a walking tool set, you tend to end up managing a condition more than being your whole self and the devaluation decay cannot be stopped whatever magic skills you have.

And also in my experience you just end up with 2 people utterly exhausted by withstanding the effects of the disease on both sides, with the inevitable result of being split black and being replaced.

I know i gave it all i had, and i think the difference with the staying board is that those people still have energy and hope left. And perhaps they also are not fully convinced yet that even their oceans of love can't cure this disease.

[Deep Blue]

I know i gave it all i had, and i think the difference with the staying board is that those people still have energy and hope left. And perhaps they also are not fully convinced yet that even their oceans of love can't cure this disease.

The people who stay still have a little bit of soul left to rend. I’ve been on the staying board myself, and when I’m on it, I’m clinging to the idea that there is a light at the end of the tunnel, that the relationship could’ve all worked out. It’s denial, but more seriously, it’s a tell of something deeper at play within the non. It’s a rescuer complex, a bit of masochism and addiction to the trauma bond, and I think there are probably a lot of people (myself included) who have low self esteem and unconsciously believe that this relationship is the best they can get. It’s quite depressing really.

In any other circumstance, if any of us saw a loved one in a relationship with someone who lies, cheats, emotionally abuses, etc. regardless of the reason why they do it, we would tell our loved one to get up and leave. There are better ways to live. Life is too short. There really is not a healthy reason to stay and put up with BS, immature, erratic behavior that can’t be resolved with communication and self control. That is true regardless whether it comes from neurotypical or disordered people.

Personally speaking, I know that it was my first relationship, the trauma bond was strong, and we laughed hard and played hard together, but it came with abuse and mirroring. It’s hard to realize when you are still attached, but one of the most important things to realize and believe is that we can have love without emotional abuse attached. I have my ups and downs regarding this whole experience, but the one unchanging conclusion is that we all should search out healthy, non abusive relationships. And with pwBPD, it isn’t going to happen without long INTENSIVE treatment and therapy, and even then...

Deep Blue

[Mutt]

Honestly, while the strategies probably "work" to pacify their partners, it's not even close to a happy life.

There’s a lot of members that have a SO that are not diagnosed and they have sub clinical traits - meaning that they may have one or two traits. Not to minimize things but just to point out that the SO’s are on a spectrum, different people with different personality traits and different BPD and traits of other mental illnesses.

You could have a partner for example that has one BPD trait and is functional or you have someone on the other end of the spectrum with more traits and less functional.

I understand the staying board is different to this one, and the idea of "stay or leave" isn't meant to be brought up. That said, a lot of the people on that board would probably benefit with some hard truths.

I understand what you’re saying. I think that when you’re in the r/s and you have people that are not in the r/s with you and are bystanders that it’s easy for the bystanders to point out and give hard and fast advise to you but they don’t understand the complexities, nuances and the history that you have with that person.

For example, how many people does the r/s affect, do they have kids together? Saying to get out of the r/s can seem like a quick win but it affects a lot of people if it’s a family. It’s also a personal choice if they want to be in r/s with someone or just how it’s a personal choice to get involved with someone.

I think that if we’re giving advise to someone about r/s’s we have to reframe our thoughts and think if we’re giving advise from the perspective of our personal experience and the path that our r/s went through or if we’re truly letting go of our partisanship and giving advice that is not influenced from our personal experience.

[grumpydonut]

It’s denial, but more seriously, it’s a tell of something deeper at play within the non. It’s a rescuer complex, a bit of masochism and addiction to the trauma bond, and I think there are probably a lot of people (myself included) who have low self esteem and unconsciously believe that this relationship is the best they can get. It’s quite depressing really.

This!

[grumpydonut]

I think that if we’re giving advise to someone about r/s’s we have to reframe our thoughts and think if we’re giving advise from the perspective of our personal experience and the path that our r/s went through or if we’re truly letting go of our partisanship and giving advice that is not influenced from our personal experience.

Agree. This is true.

There are also occasions where it is just purely obvious that the person is doing what I have quoted in my post above. There are people returning to their partner despite being falsely accused of DV to the police, or even rape. These are the people I think need the hard truth, rather than a set of tools. Some of them, imo (adding to your point), are in danger, and walk straight back into it due to denial and low self esteem.

I do wonder how many of these people have their lives completely destroyed but don't come back to the forum to report it.

[Mutt]

There are people returning to their partner despite being falsely accused of DV to the police, or even rape. These are the people I think need the hard truth, rather than a set of tools. Some of them, imo (adding to your point), are in danger, and walk straight back into it due to denial and low self esteem.

In terms of a spectrum this would be on one far end of the spectrum and you have issues that are on the other side of the spectrum ( less severe ) and somewhere in the middle.

I think that they need compassion, support and non judgmental advice. Many of us had advice that could be hard truths from a number of different sources, strangers online, coworkers, boss, doctor, family member and friends and we’re not ready to receive advice that would be construed as hard truths ( or red pill ) and turned to the boards for a reason because they felt like they didn’t have anywhere else to turn to or felt misunderstood or probably both.

I do wonder how many of these people have their lives completely destroyed but don't come back to the forum to report it.

This would be a less severe situation but how many have returned to a r/s with a pwBPD and have not returned to the boards. They could feel embarrassed if they returned because they shared one thing on the boards and did some different but if they choose to come back and share their experience from the last time that they were on the boards - it helps to be supportive and non judgmental so that they feel like they can come back and we can support them again at whatever point that they are in their lives.

[Cat Familiar]

I’ll play Devil’s Advocate. Primarily I post on the Staying Board and I’m in a relationship with a BPD husband.

I’m no newbie to BPD. My mother was undiagnosed, but certainly fit the description, as did my first, very abusive husband.

My current husband was diagnosed by a psychologist we saw as having a personality disorder, though she wouldn’t specify. She told me a couple of years later when I saw her for individual counseling. He presented more NPD in front of her, and saved the BPD stuff for me.

I was not hopeful when I joined this group several years ago. In fact I was very angry and bitter. I felt duped when I realized a couple of years down the road that this really nice guy I had married suddenly showed me his very weird side and I realized I’d married yet another mentally unhealthy husband.

Fortunately he’s mildly afflicted, though through some of the acting out I saw, I wouldn’t have guessed that at first.

What has helped is participating here and working with the psychologist for a couple of years. I no longer see her and I no longer have relationship issues that need outside help.

Yes, there will always be some BPD landmines along the way. I’ve learned how to defuse them. It’s really not a big deal. That said, your mileage may vary.

Even with what I’ve learned here, I don’t think my first marriage could ever have been rescued. And I wouldn’t have wanted to, knowing that underlying the BPD, NPD, and Antisocial Personality Disorder, my ex had (and likely still has) very sucky values. As evidence of that, years later, I still get calls from creditors he’s burned, trying to track him down.

My current husband has a great sense of morality and wants to be a good person. He was really beaten down, literally and figuratively, by a malignant narcissist father, and I don’t use that descriptor carelessly. The man was really a bitter piece of work. I haven’t run into many people as uncaring about their children as he was.

So, yes, I do agree with the thesis of this post that there are a lot of people on Bettering who are chasing after the dream of a person, and not willing to see who they are really interacting with. If they were to acknowledge the truth, they would be compelled to run away quickly, but they are holding out hope for a miracle that will never come.

However in some cases, there is hope and having lived both circumstances, I understand that there are times to dig in and work and there are times to make a swift exit. That said, it is entirely up to the individual to come to that conclusion themselves. All we can do is to support them, ask probing questions, and let them arrive at the destination of their choice.

[SinisterComplex]

Agree. This is true.

There are also occasions where it is just purely obvious that the person is doing what I have quoted in my post above. There are people returning to their partner despite being falsely accused of DV to the police, or even rape. These are the people I think need the hard truth, rather than a set of tools. Some of them, imo (adding to your point), are in danger, and walk straight back into it due to denial and low self esteem.

I do wonder how many of these people have their lives completely destroyed but don't come back to the forum to report it.

Grumpy I know there are plenty of people who disappear from the forum because they are most likely ashamed and don't want to admit that they went back, etc. The unfortunate reality is that the majority of people I think will typically take the path of least resistance and fall for the quick fix. Why? Because when hard work is involved you have to get comfortable with being vulnerable and uncomfortable and for many people they quite simply cannot bear it and it is too terrifying for them.

Usually when people come to this board and if I am going to help someone I will be bluntly honest that I could care less about the partner because that is a variable I cannot impact. I can only impact the people coming to the board for help. Therefore that is why I will try to focus on the individual.

I primarily stick to detaching, but help out on the other boards too. Perhaps the one thing I have seen a bit too much is those who are on detaching and then go to the other boards hoping to get someone to go along with them to give them hope.

At the end of the day I have no dog in the fight because people are going to do what they are going to do. I may not agree with people's choices and decisions, but it isn't my life so I just try to help make a difference if I can.

Cheers and best wishes!

-SC-