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Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse... Have you considered that being critical, judgmental, or invalidating toward the other parent, no matter what she or he just did will only make matters worse? Someone has to be do something. This means finding the motivation to stop making things worse, learning how to interrupt your own negative responses, body language, facial expressions, voice tone, and learning how to inhibit your urges to do things that you later realize are contributing to the tensions.
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UBPDHelp
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« on: February 13, 2022, 06:55:59 AM »

Just stopping by to say hello.  It’s been a while.  So much has happened but little has changed.

My D had her (major, major) surgery and it’s been a long road to recovery but she’s doing well now. But outside of work, my time has been focused on helping her and getting her to doctors and school. Things are starting to normalize in that regard.

It’s funny (not haha funny), H now says her surgery was the hardest thing he’s been through.  I feel the same. And then he takes it a bit further that it was somehow harder on him than D (she was asleep for 8 hours, idk?).

It doesn’t surprise me, I had 2 quasi-traumatic deliveries and to this day he says it was harder on him b/c he was worried. He legitimately feels that it was harder for him than for me to birth an 8 lb baby with no epidural. 

Anyway, I took a few weeks off work to tend to D.  He checked on her for a couple of weeks and then just faded away.  He texts her every few weeks. Sometimes pleasant and sometimes not so much. He makes no attempt to see her.  We’re in the same house but he stays away.  He’ll take S out every few weeks for fast food or dinner. Occasionally to play outside. 

Although I’ve never told him to stay away, I am glad he does. Every couple of months he’ll tell D that they’re going to have dinner 3 nights a week but never follows through. She despises him. But she’s a teen so some normal.  I just let her express herself. I used to try to tell her he did love her (1) didn’t want her to feel unloved by dad and 2) in his controlling manipulative way, he does…until I realize it’s not really love).  Now I just let her express herself and support her emotions.

My S hasn’t quite figured dad out. I never talk badly about dad to him. Just matter of fact.  But he sometimes doesn’t want to tell dad stuff. And yet he loves dad.

S says I love you a lot. Almost like a see you later. I suspect he needs reassurance so I’m just letting it play out and trying to help him feel supported throughout (school, sports, friends).

H doesn’t like it. Story after story that when H turned 5 he pushed mom away and never looked back. H has told me son would push me away but he hasn’t yet. I know as he gets older, I become less interesting and that’s normal and expected to a degree.

But H gets really mad that S always says I love you when he leaves (it is a bit more than normal — I think pandemic has introduced additional uncertainty so it’s reassuring to S, but I hope to support and gradually shift a bit but heck, maybe he’s a kid who expresses his feelings).

So H says he’s going to grow up to be 1) a rapist 2) a serial killer 3) a f (derogatory slang I won’t repeat) OR 4) most likely a combination.

He doesn’t say it to S and I don’t think he’s ever said it where he heard but has where my Ds have. It only contributes to their dislike of dad.

My job is tough. Overworked. Overworked and fighting to reduce workload. My manager has promised to shift some of my load to some new hires. But I’ve heard this before. Unfortunately it’s introduced some additional feelings of uncertainty.  Fear is immobilizing me.

The housing market sucks here. Plain and simple. Average house is $500K for a 2-3 br decent house requiring updating and minor to mid repair. Houses go on the market and are off in hours. There just aren’t any. A 2-br apartment is like $3K a month. There are no 3 BRs around and I need 3 + a couch for me. A rental house is $4-5K a month.  That is my entire take home pay.

So I’m nervous that I’ll literally have no place to go and I have no family.  No friends that can take us in. So, trying to take a leap but everything feels uncertain.

Ready to engage another attorney. I’ve spoken to 3. Feel like I need a few more. I just don’t know how to coexist during this time.

I do have a new concern…not sure how I lost my way. H and I had to deal each other with Ds surgery. I tried a yellow rock (bit more than gray rock) and talked (vented) about work. There have been a few crazy things but a lot of frustration with workload (company is understaffed and everyone is overloaded), but I had a coworker do something bad and the manager handled it poorly. I vented and in frustration said more than I should have.

The yellow rock was to maintain some appearance of communication in an arena I didn’t think mattered overall to the situation.  It was a crutch and H is a stalker. He looked up all the execs and knows where they went to school, etc., etc. Now I’m realizing I’ve handed him a loaded gun. Although I vented truth and didn’t disclose confidential info, no doubt he could twist the truth and portray me badly.

He does stalk a lot. My oldest was seeing someone new and only gave first name, impressive school went to (makes H happy  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post) ). Found out the kid leaned a certain way and H began his research and found the kids name, political affiliation, where he was from.  Creepy but he poses it like he’s being protective.

Sorry this is a rambling mess of info, Laugh out loud (click to insert in post). Just quick catch up…not even a question but welcome comments.

Nice to see you all!
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GaGrl
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« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2022, 09:26:13 AM »

Good to hear from you! I'm so glad your D got through surgery and recuperation -- that has to be a huge relief.
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« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2022, 11:52:33 AM »

I am glad your D's surgery went well. From the perspective of having been a teen with a BPD mother and also having raised my own teens, the developmental "pushing parent away" is different. It's a hard time for us parents but if we have a stable self image- we know that this- wanting to dress their own way, tell their friends everything but not us, basically pull away to become their own person- even if it's emotionally up and down ( due to the hormonal changes ) is really a step on their way to being their own person. It's important that we manage our own emotions during this process- they do this best with a stable parent to "push against".

Not me as a teen. My relationship was based on fear, not trust. By the age of 12 I had the sense that in ways my BPD mother was not as emotionally mature or stable as I was, and it was puzzling because she was in charge and I had to obey her. It was also at this time I began to question her behavior. I didn't see other mothers act like that, and she also blamed me for it. So I could not push against her at all. I was afraid to do that. I was a pretty good teen, did some normal teen stuff but didn't dare do risky things- as I also knew that there would be no support if I did. I set my goal on college- it was the path to independence.

She didn't act loving or caring to me. I did not like her. She'd explain this as "that mother-daughter teen age stage" as if I was some rebellious acting out kid. The acting out, raging, screaming all over the house? That was her.

As much as I understand adults trying to smooth over our relationship, it was invalidating. She preferred the golden child. She'd say "oh that's silly sibling rivalry" on my part. No, it's true and she still prefers the golden child. The worst "your mother loves you" - well that's confusing and not the idea of adult love you want your child to have. Ask yourself- would you want her to marry someone who treats her like her father does?

What happens when a parent treats a child like this is natural consequences. Not that I didn't try for a long time to gain approval and love from my parents, or that I didn't wish the relationship is better, as I surely did. But the natural consequences for mistreating an adult child is a lot of sadness on the part of the child and a strained relationship. Your D is old enough to see what she sees and know what she knows and sugar wrapping it may just confuse her.

But you don't want to triangulate either. This is where a trained counselor would be a good resource to teach her about mental illness so she could understand the situation better.
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« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2022, 12:20:50 PM »

So glad to hear your D is doing well!

S says I love you a lot. Almost like a see you later. I suspect he needs reassurance so I’m just letting it play out and trying to help him feel supported throughout (school, sports, friends).
[...]
But H gets really mad that S always says I love you when he leaves (it is a bit more than normal — I think pandemic has introduced additional uncertainty so it’s reassuring to S, but I hope to support and gradually shift a bit but heck, maybe he’s a kid who expresses his feelings).

I think the amount of "I love you"s simply varies from family to family and from person to person within a family. And it's probably also situational, as you said. My mom used to say it often and still does. I say it to our D almost every time she or I leave, and when I give her a goodnight hug.

So H says he’s going to grow up to be 1) a rapist 2) a serial killer 3) a f (derogatory slang I won’t repeat) OR 4) most likely a combination.

This can feel so frustrating and angering. I'm sorry. I'm glad S likely hasn't heard it. I'm sorry your Ds have.

When my uBPDw would tell me our D will grow up to be a [fill in the blank] either because of something she "always" or "never" does or because of the way I treat her, I used to defend D. I don't think that ever went well. Then at some point I realized W was just venting her feelings. So at that point I'd just leave the conversation. When W says it to D though, or within earshot of D, I do intervene. It's not pleasant, but D deserves to be defended from that sort of thing.
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« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2022, 01:12:07 PM »


Glad to get the update about your D.  Is that "over" or as over as it gets or is there more healing/therapy to do?

Do you have a timeline for engaging an attorney?

Best,

FF
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« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2022, 02:32:25 PM »

Good to hear from you! I'm so glad your D got through surgery and recuperation -- that has to be a huge relief.

Thank you…it is a huge relief. Has been bumpy for her, mostly just slower than expected. But she is really turning a corner.
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« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2022, 02:44:20 PM »

I am glad your D's surgery went well. From the perspective of having been a teen with a BPD mother and also having raised my own teens, the developmental "pushing parent away" is different. It's a hard time for us parents but if we have a stable self image- we know that this- wanting to dress their own way, tell their friends everything but not us, basically pull away to become their own person- even if it's emotionally up and down ( due to the hormonal changes ) is really a step on their way to being their own person. It's important that we manage our own emotions during this process- they do this best with a stable parent to "push against".

Not me as a teen. My relationship was based on fear, not trust. By the age of 12 I had the sense that in ways my BPD mother was not as emotionally mature or stable as I was, and it was puzzling because she was in charge and I had to obey her. It was also at this time I began to question her behavior. I didn't see other mothers act like that, and she also blamed me for it. So I could not push against her at all. I was afraid to do that. I was a pretty good teen, did some normal teen stuff but didn't dare do risky things- as I also knew that there would be no support if I did. I set my goal on college- it was the path to independence.

This is absolutely spot on. I have been confused by what I’ve been through, it has to be confusing to a kid. But, she pegged him and she remembers things I’ve forgotten.  Bad behaviors that I brushed aside to find peace and then repressed, I suppose. I feel like a failure and am disappointed in myself. But I’m fighting not to live in that space. Not because I don’t want responsibility; I was the adult and the rational, stable  parent at that and I failed to see it or fight my way out of the bag.

But once I understood more and realized I was invalidating her by trying to let her believe he loved her, I stopped and let her feel her feelings and lead the conversation. And it does look different than spreading her wings.

Excerpt
She didn't act loving or caring to me. I did not like her. She'd explain this as "that mother-daughter teen age stage" as if I was some rebellious acting out kid. The acting out, raging, screaming all over the house? That was her.

As much as I understand adults trying to smooth over our relationship, it was invalidating. She preferred the golden child. She'd say "oh that's silly sibling rivalry" on my part. No, it's true and she still prefers the golden child. The worst "your mother loves you" - well that's confusing and not the idea of adult love you want your child to have. Ask yourself- would you want her to marry someone who treats her like her father does?

What happens when a parent treats a child like this is natural consequences. Not that I didn't try for a long time to gain approval and love from my parents, or that I didn't wish the relationship is better, as I surely did. But the natural consequences for mistreating an adult child is a lot of sadness on the part of the child and a strained relationship. Your D is old enough to see what she sees and know what she knows and sugar wrapping it may just confuse her.

But you don't want to triangulate either. This is where a trained counselor would be a good resource to teach her about mental illness so she could understand the situation better.

All very good points. She is wise behind her years. His behavior is a reflection on him. Not on her worth, value or deserved ness of love — or anyone else’s — despite what he tries to imply.

I’m sorry you went through what you did. No one deserves that. Kudos for rising above and doing better. And thank you for the help.
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« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2022, 03:03:12 PM »

Thanks, and kudos to you too for allowing your D to go with her feelings on this. Please don't be hard on yourself. I think a romantic relationship is a different perspective. You did what you felt you had to do to keep peace in the home. You did the best you could with what you knew to do.

Parents with PD's tend to see their children as extensions of themselves, not separate people with their own ideas and feelings. When he sees his son say "I love you" he might feel his own manhood to be questioned if he was raised as "boys are tough". But you son is a different person and it's great that your son feels ok expressing that.
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« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2022, 03:04:31 PM »

So glad to hear your D is doing well!

I think the amount of "I love you"s simply varies from family to family and from person to person within a family. And it's probably also situational, as you said. My mom used to say it often and still does. I say it to our D almost every time she or I leave, and when I give her a goodnight hug.

This can feel so frustrating and angering. I'm sorry. I'm glad S likely hasn't heard it. I'm sorry your Ds have.

I tell my kids all the time. I used to tell H.  He doesn’t like it. Can’t say have a nice day, goodbye, how was your day or something is cute or sweet. They are buzz words that trigger him.  So confusing. But also means in over 20 years I haven’t ever been asked by him how my day was. That’s messed up.

I think my son is confused by dad and wants reassurance that he’s loved. I will do that forever.

It is jarring and honestly why would you say such a thing about you child?

Excerpt
When my uBPDw would tell me our D will grow up to be a [fill in the blank] either because of something she "always" or "never" does or because of the way I treat her, I used to defend D. I don't think that ever went well. Then at some point I realized W was just venting her feelings. So at that point I'd just leave the conversation. When W says it to D though, or within earshot of D, I do intervene. It's not pleasant, but D deserves to be defended from that sort of thing.

This is familiar. Standing up never goes well. Silence is acceptance.  

It’s one of the big things I don’t want to deal with.

H stopped locking the door a year ago.  Always locked knob and deadbolt. Home and away. But when I stood up to him the last time he stopped. I got out of the shower and the front door was blown open and he was gone.

I asked him to please lock it.  He ALWAYS did for 25 years, and always scared us that someone would break in and kill us (he’s a charmer…so off kilter in fear he made me).  We live in a pretty safe place but he would terrify us so when he just stopped doing it, it was his passive aggressive way of saying I don’t care about you.

He told me he was distracted about work and forgot. And then proceeded to forget every day coming and going. Refused to lock the door. I bought a remote lock and installed it myself. Now I can lock the door from my phone. A year later he still won’t lock the door BUT if he comes home and I’m not there he magically remembers to lock both so I have to unlock them.  Ridiculously transparent.

My long point — I want to tell him to lock the door every time he doesn’t. But I don’t because as soon as he knows something bothers me, it becomes his new favorite pastime. That’s why this is over.

Thank you for sharing your perspective and similarities.
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« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2022, 03:10:02 PM »

Glad to get the update about your D.  Is that "over" or as over as it gets or is there more healing/therapy to do?

Do you have a timeline for engaging an attorney?

Best,

FF

Thankfully it is not a recurring issue. So once recovered, then back to normal (+ 2 rods + 12 hooks/screws on fused vertebrae). The surgery was longer than planned with tremendous blood loss that did not replenish quickly so anemia set in, compounding recovery. But we’ve addressed and she is like a new person. Toughest person I have ever known!

I am recalibrating my life and would like to have made progress by May/June. That is my goal. 

Good to see you FF!
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« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2022, 03:18:26 PM »

Thanks, and kudos to you too for allowing your D to go with her feelings on this. Please don't be hard on yourself. I think a romantic relationship is a different perspective. You did what you felt you had to do to keep peace in the home. You did the best you could with what you knew to do.

Parents with PD's tend to see their children as extensions of themselves, not separate people with their own ideas and feelings. When he sees his son say "I love you" he might feel his own manhood to be questioned if he was raised as "boys are tough". But you son is a different person and it's great that your son feels ok expressing that.

This is so true.  It actually explains so much. When my older 2 were doing teenage stuff he was very concerned by how people perceived them (smart, good, not promiscuous, etc). But for normal things like dating, hair color, etc.  I thought it was protective and they would teenage push back. They didn’t really. I kept waiting thinking they just weren’t there yet. When I tried to stand up for them, he would tell me I was encouraging them to be slutty or something. He said they weren’t asking and I was pushing it on them. They were too afraid to ask him or stand up for themselves.

He does see them as part of him. Wondering if a bit further — if son says he loves me and H doesn’t, then he’s angry. And, agree it is a masculinity thing. My son is rough and tumble and does “boy” things but is also sweet and loving.  Can’t he be both? 

Geesh I love my kids and that’s why I finally see that this is not okay or sustainable.  We all deserve normal peace.

Thanks Notwendy!
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« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2022, 04:34:40 PM »

I wouldn't be so sure son hasn't heard H being disparaging and demeaning.  The old saying... Walls have ears.  Or his sister may have shared with him.

So always look for ways to validate both children.  And avoid the urge to state seemingly nice but actually invalidating comments, such as "but dad loves you".
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« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2022, 04:42:27 PM »

The kids "know" -- it's their intuition at work.

I knew my step-grandmother was "off" and wasn't like my other grandmother, but I didn't know until I was ten years old that my bio grandmother had died when my mother was four and that SGM married my grandad two years later.

I remember the enormous sense of relief at finding she was not a "blood relative." I thought, "Oh, thank God, she's not a part of me."
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« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2022, 07:15:22 PM »

Any chance you could relocate to a less expensive area? Is your job remote?

Or, could you deal with less space than desired just for the peace of mind of being away from him?

Or... what are the chances he would have to leave and provide support for you and the kids to stay in the home? Questions for a lawyer.
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« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2022, 08:32:16 PM »

I wouldn't be so sure son hasn't heard H being disparaging and demeaning.  The old saying... Walls have ears.  Or his sister may have shared with him.

So always look for ways to validate both children.  And avoid the urge to state seemingly nice but actually invalidating comments, such as "but dad loves you".

Thanks ForeverDad.  I’m fairly certain he hasn’t heard most of it. H gets mad sometimes and says things like “are you retarded?”

This feels like a gut punch. Just so many levels of not okay. It sux because if you tell him it’s not okay, he pushes more. If you want it to stop you shut up, but that feels like acceptance. No win.

I learned on my last go around that trying to tell them dad loves then is invalidating and confusing. I thought it was helpful. I don’t have a great response other than to listen.


I am trying, but I am not trained to deal with this. Just not what you expect in most relationships and lacked experience.
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« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2022, 08:42:10 PM »

The kids "know" -- it's their intuition at work.

I knew my step-grandmother was "off" and wasn't like my other grandmother, but I didn't know until I was ten years old that my bio grandmother had died when my mother was four and that SGM married my grandad two years later.

I remember the enormous sense of relief at finding she was not a "blood relative." I thought, "Oh, thank God, she's not a part of me."

Yea, my D was clear it was not right. I had a lot of confusion and fear. And have been gaslit for years. Twisting my words and perceptions. I lost my balance and trust in my ability.

He flat out told me he knows I want stability so he won’t give it to me. This is years ago.  I wish I knew he really meant it.

He doesn’t care one bit about me. And once anyone knows we’re getting a divorce, I will be annihilated.  I know it’s coming. I have no one left so I don’t really care.

Over the last year, he has not texted or called me first. Last week I was curious if he would reach out to me if I didn’t first. Nope. Wasn’t a surprise but confirmed what he’s told me and I didn’t listen.

I feel selfish and like I’m hurting him when I leave. He doesn’t care except what others think. I just want confirmation of what I believe to be true.
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« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2022, 08:48:07 PM »

Any chance you could relocate to a less expensive area? Is your job remote?

Or, could you deal with less space than desired just for the peace of mind of being away from him?

Or... what are the chances he would have to leave and provide support for you and the kids to stay in the home? Questions for a lawyer.

I look at houses 3x a week.  The whole state is expensive but there are areas that are a bit less.

100% willing to go smaller and fixing up as long as mechanicals are good. Does not scare me one bit. I just want peace. I’ll sleep in a closet if I have to. I don’t care.

I could maybe get him to leave but this house is not affordable for me and I’d like to save something for the future. So want to downsize. But I hate making my kids leave the town they live in. But I can’t afford to stay.

I can’t go before divorce because anything I buy becomes marital property otherwise I would have been gone already.

Will see what the next lawyers say. Thank you I am Redeemed!
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« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2022, 11:15:42 PM »

I lost my balance and trust in my ability.

He flat out told me he knows I want stability so he won’t give it to me... I wish I knew he really meant it.

He doesn’t care one bit about me. And once anyone knows we’re getting a divorce, I will be annihilated... I have no one left so I don’t really care.

I feel selfish and like I’m hurting him when I leave. He doesn’t care except what others think... I just want confirmation of what I believe to be true.

It sounds like he's really done a number on you.  You have far more options than you believe.

Your children... You don't have to remain silent with them.  In fact, silence can be invalidating too.  You can explain why you don't defend them while he's there, "Kids, it gets worse when I stand up and try to defend you.  It goes nowhere but worse.  Now that he's gone, I can tell you you're normal, wonderful kids.  For him, it's all about him and his negativity.  I can't change him and neither can you, so we just have to trust that together we can get through this."

Have you and the kids sought counseling?

It's time to stop doubting yourself and listening to his disparaging you and the kids.  Remember that movie about the shark and wimpy fish?  Going down the chart from one predator to the next, "This is whale poo and below is you."  Well, can you picture that H is the one under whale poo?
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« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2022, 11:32:37 PM »

I can’t go before divorce because anything I buy becomes marital property otherwise I would have been gone already.

Do ask a lawyer about this. In the state where I live, lawyers told me that after the "date of separation" my paycheck will be mine, not shared. I imagine that might also apply to property after separation. One of the lawyers said there may be some disagreement on when exactly was the date of separation, but a lawyer should be able to help with that too. All good questions for lawyers.
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formflier
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« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2022, 08:36:11 AM »


Hey!  I'll double down on what others have said about checking with a L on exactly how things are handled in your state.

One "vibe" I'm picking up is that you are looking for a "solution" or perhaps "final solution" to living situation after filing divorce.

I would encourage you to break it down into manageable chunks. 

This is where and how we will live for 6 months following divorce.

This is where and how we will live until divorce is final.

By the time a divorce is being finalized, you should have enough experience and know what is in the settlement to create a plan for what happens..starting say...two months after divorce is final.

Yes..a couple of months after.

Here is the thing, you should be prepared for him to  do what is in the settlement AND you should be prepared and write a settlement with expectations and consequences of what will happen and when after divorce is final...and what EXACTLY will happen if he doesn't do (fill in the blank).

So...I wouldn't want you to be putting in contracts on a house without him actually signing over or delivering to you "final settlements", otherwise he continues to have power over you getting on with your life.

Last:  I'm a big fan of you staying in place for a few months and probably until divorce is final.  Then divorce is final, he quitclaims..you put house on market and after closing get on with your life. 

It's such a sellers market out there that I can't imagine you will have trouble finding buyers that will allow you to live there for 30 or 60 days after closing.  Money can be held is escrow.

You've got this!

Best,

FF





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