The illogic of it all

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I understand being overcome with emotions and taking an action that is completely illogical - such as being forceful with something that isn't working, only to make it work worse.  But when I do something like that, I know that action was illogical.

Do pwBPD do this?  I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this now. 
 
The old saying "treat others as you would like to be treated".  My BPDw will treat others (including me) in ways she complains that others treat her.  Example - her dad screaming at her and calling her names, so that she left his house to protect herself.  She screams at me and calls me names, and I leave to protect myself, but in her mind I am "punishing" or "abusing" her by leaving.  Does she ever make the connection? 

I'm thinking no - but I just can't wrap myself around how/why not. Or does she understand, just that her own emotions completely overwhelm her ability to truly understand?

[maxsterling]

I understand being overcome with emotions and taking an action that is completely illogical - such as being forceful with something that isn't working, only to make it work worse.  But when I do something like that, I know that action was illogical.

Do pwBPD do this?  I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this now. 
 
The old saying "treat others as you would like to be treated".  My BPDw will treat others (including me) in ways she complains that others treat her.  Example - her dad screaming at her and calling her names, so that she left his house to protect herself.  She screams at me and calls me names, and I leave to protect myself, but in her mind I am "punishing" or "abusing" her by leaving.  Does she ever make the connection? 

I'm thinking no - but I just can't wrap myself around how/why not. Or does she understand, just that her own emotions completely overwhelm her ability to truly understand?

[BigOof]

IMHO, illogical positions are pwBPD's modus operandi. Here are some examples:

- Tried to get me incarcerated and demanded years of alimony and child support at the same time
- Wants me to be a more involved parent but refuses to offer up any custody
- Demanded I get a psychiatric eval as part of a custody eval only to be formally diagnosed with BPD in the process
- Obtains a temporary restraining order only to stalk me around the streets
- Tried to annihilate me while asking my father for help

Par for the course.

I think it comes down to a lack of empathy.

[Kaitlin700]

I often wonder the same thing. I am not sure if they’re just masters of manipulation who have no guilt around how they twist things or if this is truly, TRULY a skewed perception that they aren’t even aware of.

[I_Am_The_Fire]

From my experience and what I understand, they have little to no cognitive empathy. They can't see or recognize emotions from someone else's perspective. They just cannot make that connection which feels extremely frustrating and mind boggling for us. Example. My ex would spew insults at me. I would immediately parrot exactly what he said to me back to him. Then he would be all "why are you so mean to me?" He truly didn't get it which just blew my mind.

[Kaitlin700]

They can't see or recognize emotions from someone else's perspective. They just cannot make that connection which feels extremely frustrating and mind boggling for us.

My therapist tells me this pretty much every session (and I go weekly) …. I also read it on these boards… and it’s still not something I can grasp…. The mind blowing part is just how hard it is to empathize when faced with the idea that they CANNOT

[ForeverDad]

The mind blowing part is just how hard it is to empathize when faced with the idea that they CANNOT

Or WILL NOT... if even we could determine which it is...

[maxsterling]

My therapist tells me this pretty much every session (and I go weekly) …. I also read it on these boards… and it’s still not something I can grasp…. The mind blowing part is just how hard it is to empathize when faced with the idea that they CANNOT

But they think they are being empathetic - or at least act the part.  In my Ws case, she can empathize with a character in a book, people in the 3rd person, etc. And at times she knows she is mistreating others, but very easily justifies it.  She can yell at the kids, go into the other room and cry and say she is acting just like her abusive mother, then an hour later be yelling at the kids again. 

[T0M]

But they think they are being empathetic - or at least act the part.  In my Ws case, she can empathize with a character in a book, people in the 3rd person, etc. And at times she knows she is mistreating others, but very easily justifies it.  She can yell at the kids, go into the other room and cry and say she is acting just like her abusive mother, then an hour later be yelling at the kids again. 

My GF with BPD actually thinks she is very good at reading other people. That she is highly sensitive. That she reads a room very well. But I thought I read it in the book 'Stop walking on eggshells' that people with BPD see as a matter of speech the outline of a person but fill in the emotions as they think themselves they should be. They are lying to themselves without noticing it.

My GF can also say something very bad to her daughter, walk away to another room and cry saying it is never enough, that she tries so hard but that she can not do anything right. Leaving her daughter and myself completely baffled.

[babyducks]

I'm thinking no - but I just can't wrap myself around how/why not. Or does she understand, just that her own emotions completely overwhelm her ability to truly understand?

There have been some early studies that I find interesting regarding the neurobiology of BPD.     Yes, it's true that this is early information.   And of course, anything with this level of complexity makes certainty harder to achieve.   Still, I find it interesting that MRI scans show differences in the brains of people with BPD.

The scans revealed that in many people with BPD, 3 parts of the brain were either smaller than expected or had unusual levels of activity. These parts were:

the amygdala – which plays an important role in regulating emotions, especially the more "negative" emotions, such as fear, aggression and anxiety
the hippocampus – which helps regulate behaviour and self-control
the orbitofrontal cortex – which is involved in planning and decision making

more here:
https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/conditions/borderline-personality-disorder/causes/

if there are structural brain abnormalities in pwBPD is still an open question but I believe it's worth consideration.  there is also some work on genetics. 

Current research supports the theory that there is a large genetic component to whether a person develops BPD. Two genes—DPYD and PKP4—have been identified as increasing a person's risk of developing BPD.
These genes are linked to schizophrenia and bipolar disorder risk, too.

For me, the question of Why Can't She Just See That...really wasn't productive.   It was slippery slope into a deepening mine field.     

I have arthritis.    My arthritis manifests in ways unique to me.    No matter how much I want to, and no matter how much I attempt to, I am not going to be able to open that stupid jar.     Biology has limits.   These are mine.   I think my Ex had biological limits on how her brain experienced and processed the emotions of daily living.   She could open that jar in the kitchen no problem, but couldn't do other things.     Personally, I don't believe that BPD is a moral failure.   I remember reading that epilepsy used to be considered a problem of influence of the moon and that exorcism was considered the best treatment.    I believe that some day, probably way in the future, our understanding of how the brain actually works will show a biological, structural, physical component to BPD.

my two cents
'ducks

[khibomsis]

I am most fascinated by the research that shows that brain activity changes after DBT. https://medworksmedia.com/dialectal-behavioral-therapy-dbt-actually-change-way-brain-works/#:~:text=DBT%20was%20effective%20in%20reducing,had%20indeed%20changed%20after%20DBT.
Still, you know, ultimately it is not about them. Say somebody is disabled and in a wheelchair. Before committing to this person one would have to think long and hard about one's own capacity to care for them. Because we do them no favours trying to stretch beyond our own capacity

[Notwendy]

Thanks 'ducks for that reference. I think in time, this will be more recognized for the disability that it is. It is also a spectrum condition, so one can be high functions, have few traits, or be severely affected. It seems to impact the closest relationships the most, regardless. So a high functioning person might be competent in their career and still have relationship difficulties at home, whereas a more severely affected person may not be able to function well in general.

It's disordered thinking and from my own observation, the distortion causes their perception to be in victim mode. If one sees things in victim mode- then interactions are interpreted as such, even if there's no intention to be hurtful. So what someone says or does- is then "translated" through this disordered thinking and then they "react" in self defense. To the other person, this reaction appears to be out of the blue, because to them, it's not connected to something they said or did. But to the pwBPD, it makes total sense.

Once "attacked" the other person then goes into their own victim mode, they are hurt, they want the other person to understand that the behavior was hurtful. But they are the victim in their feelings and the persecutor can't be a victim. It will feel invalidating to them, and add to the upset feelings. I think this is the underlying issue between the circular arguments that seem to go no where.

With a poor self image, there's strong defenses against "being wrong" and the feeling of shame. For every behavior, there's a payoff- a benefit, even if the behavior has a high cost to them. The payoff for "victim" perspective is that, one doesn't blame the victim- it's not the victim's fault- and so there isn't accountability for actions. Denial and projection are strong. A problem though is that if one can not see their part in a situation, there isn't learning from it. I am not very familiar with therapy for pwBPD but I think an aspect of that is to help this learning- to associate a behavior with outcome in a supportive situation. A family member or partner can't do that due to the emotional connection in a relationship. However, for any therapy to be effective, the person needs to be able to look at themselves and motivated to work on that. The defenses against shame may make some people not able to do this.

To put this into the situation you described Max, when your wife's father yells at her, she walks away because she feels like a victim.  He's the persecutor in her mind. When she yells at you, she's still in victim mode and so when you walk away- you are being hurtful to her - because she interprets your actions from victim mode.

While it may be possible to understand this kind of thinking, it's also important to understand that we can not change how someone else thinks. We can't change how other people see us. In this situation it's hard to hold on to our own sense of self when someone else is defining us and we are constantly trying to get them to see our true intentions. It's also important to act from our own value system. If yours is to "treat others as you would like to be treated"-then you need to stick with that because denying your own value system is abandoning who you are. But be careful of co-dependency- that would be "treat others as you would like to be treated- except you" There needs to be balance here. You need to include yourself in this- you are a human being too. Looking to a disordered person to reciprocate the kind intentions you have may not be effective.

[babyducks]

Allow me to play devils advocate NotWendy?

Which do you think comes first?  Does the way with think wire our brains?   Or does the wiring in the brain form the way we think?   Or is it both?

It's fairly commonly accepted that trauma can rewire neural networks.   And so can meditation.   Do you think that it's unique to the individual how the components of brain structure, chemistry, genetics and experience all play together?

[PeteWitsend]

...  Does she ever make the connection?  

I'm thinking no - but I just can't wrap myself around how/why not. Or does she understand, just that her own emotions completely overwhelm her ability to truly understand?

Do they ever make those connections?  I agree, no they don't.  

But in order to understand it, I think you have to look at it from their own disordered point of view.  

Their paranoia, and - above all else - fear of abandonment drives their behavior, more than anything.  It also seems to blind them to reality, or any sense of how other people are reacting, or any empathy for what others are going through or how they're making them feel.  

You can see the result when they really go off the chain, or dysregulate.  I'd notice BPDxw would start to ramble and almost yell incoherently, and her pupils would dilate... I realized she was in her own reality at those moments, and I could not understand how she got there, or what it was like.  

Seeking to control you or control the situation - including controlling your thoughts, or at least policing them - is their goal.  So from their minds, whatever they perceive to be a means to that end in that moment is the logical course of action for them, even if they are in reality pushing you away, or destroying their own credibility.  

Another possible explanation here: I also had a T ask me if I felt BPDxw was trying to push me away sometimes.  I said yes, she would bring up the topic of divorce really often, insist I was planning on leaving her, which was odd for someone who was afraid of abandonment.  At the time, I was still firmly in the "I'm going to try to make this work for our D" mindset, and was not planning on divorce, although without a change in her behavior, I could not see our marriage lasting much longer.  The T told me sometimes pwBPD will sabotage their own circumstances in order to be "right" about something, so they can feel certainty.  

So if they think you're planning on leaving, they'll go out of their way to make you so miserable that you eventually do.  

[PeteWitsend]

In regards to the lack of empathy, I agree with what I've read in some prior discussions here, which is pwBPD are so emotionally involved in always being the victim in relationships, that they cannot serve in any other role, or be a caretaker, at least for any reasonable length of time.  

They get angry & frustrated when put in situations where they're supposed to demonstrate empathy for someone else, or even just listen to their problems, especially if the person in need of empathy, or who suffered some misfortune was their perceived "tormentor" or had been painted black.  

In my experience, the only exception is if the proverbial "cameras are rolling" ... they'll make a show of empathy if they're benefitting from the exposure or attention they get.  When BPDxw volunteered at a soup kitchen, or did a charity bike ride, everyone needed to hear about it.  

[Notwendy]

Ducks, I think it's a nature/nurture thing, a little of both. We know there's a genetic connection, but also not all relatives of someone with BPD have BPD. In our case, none of the children of my BPD mother have BPD, but how we responded to being raised has been different. There has certainly been some emotional trauma but not BPD. There's this quality- resilience, then birth order, gender of child, gender of person with BPD, and genetics all at play.

Somehow two children in the same family can be affected differently. The movie "Precious" is one I recall how remarkably resilient this young woman was, having experienced severe abuse. Someone else may have had far more difficulty, more "rewireing".

In Max's situation and also common to pwBPD is substance abuse. With the tendency to self medicate I also wonder what impact prolonged drug and alcohol use might have.

It's possibly chicken/egg?

Hard to know but it would be good to know more about the biology of this.

[Cat Familiar]

Here’s another thought about *the illogic of it all* is that for us nons, knowing what we know, and expecting them to behave differently than they do—isn’t that the same kind of thinking?

[PeteWitsend]

Here’s another thought about *the illogic of it all* is that for us nons, knowing what we know, and expecting them to behave differently than they do—isn’t that the same kind of thinking?

That would be illogical, yes.  

I suppose so many struggle with accepting this because in the end, the only real "solution" to the "problem" is to leave and find a non-disordered partner.  If one can't do that - for whatever reason - the hope that there may be improvement over time, or one can at least learn to manage the conflict better is all the Nons can cling to.  

Your post reminded me of something else someone told me about BPD early in my understanding of the disorder: it was notorious for it's "crazy making" capabilities.  People in relationships with pwBPD often end up going to therapy themselves... and they claimed ironically NONS seek help more than the pwBPD that cause the chaos and disorder.

[HeWho]

IMHO, illogical positions are pwBPD's modus operandi. Here are some examples:

- Tried to get me incarcerated and demanded years of alimony and child support at the same time

I'm experiencing this now. My wife makes literally twice as much a me and has requested spousal support. Even my commander was taken aback by her request.

[alleyesonme]

Lots of great points in this thread.

One thing I try to remember when I'm feeling down due to everything my ex has done and is currently doing to me is that I'm not like her and never will be. She has to live with this disorder 24 hours a day, and it never goes away. Think about how awful of an existence that must be. Even though her presence in my life has felt like a tornado destroying a village, the tornado won't be here forever and I've got the tools to rebuild the village.

[EZEarache]

Even though her presence in my life has felt like a tornado destroying a village, the tornado won't be here forever and I've got the tools to rebuild the village.

For those of us that have to co-parent with a BPD, the village keeps getting destroyed by the same tornado. Yet we love the location we're living in so much, we just keep rebuilding. Fortunately we have this site as an instruction manual to fall back on every time we get ripped apart.

Thank you for a thought provoking thread.

[T0M]

For those of us that have to co-parent with a BPD, the village keeps getting destroyed by the same tornado. Yet we love the location we're living in so much, we just keep rebuilding. Fortunately we have this site as an instruction manual to fall back on every time we get ripped apart.

Comparing it with a village being destroyed doesn't cover it for me. If you say it destroys a village and you can rebuild it, it sounds like you take yourself out of the equation. That you can watch it happen from a distance without being involved. And afterwards, when the storm is over, go back to the location of disaster, and 'rebuild it'.

I see it like this: Before I met her, I was a strong tree. And I could handle it when sometimes a branch got shopped of. It would regrow. But at a certain point I started to notice that the chopping went faster, than I could regrow. So now only a small branch is left. It gets trampled every now and then, but I manage to revive - for the moment.

[ThanksForPlaying]

My ex would spew insults at me. I would immediately parrot exactly what he said to me back to him. Then he would be all "why are you so mean to me?" He truly didn't get it which just blew my mind.

I've gotten this recently. Horrible insults attempting to cause me maximum pain, and then rage if I calmly say "I hate you too, you know" (or something like that).

The other day she was ranting "f*** this, f*** that, f*** you" etc. I exasperatedly just said "F***!" to no one in particular. She replied "Stop that! It's different when you say it, because you never say it! I say it all the time, so it's ok for me to say it!"

Just baffling logic.

[ForeverDad]

The illogic:  "Rules and Whatever for you, not for me"

[Good Intentions]

Once "attacked" the other person then goes into their own victim mode, they are hurt, they want the other person to understand that the behavior was hurtful. But they are the victim in their feelings and the persecutor can't be a victim. It will feel invalidating to them, and add to the upset feelings. I think this is the underlying issue between the circular arguments that seem to go no where.

With a poor self image, there's strong defenses against "being wrong" and the feeling of shame. For every behavior, there's a payoff- a benefit, even if the behavior has a high cost to them. The payoff for "victim" perspective is that, one doesn't blame the victim- it's not the victim's fault- and so there isn't accountability for actions. Denial and projection are strong. A problem though is that if one can not see their part in a situation, there isn't learning from it. I am not very familiar with therapy for pwBPD but I think an aspect of that is to help this learning- to associate a behavior with outcome in a supportive situation. A family member or partner can't do that due to the emotional connection in a relationship. However, for any therapy to be effective, the person needs to be able to look at themselves and motivated to work on that. The defenses against shame may make some people not able to do this.

While it may be possible to understand this kind of thinking, it's also important to understand that we can not change how someone else thinks. We can't change how other people see us. In this situation it's hard to hold on to our own sense of self when someone else is defining us and we are constantly trying to get them to see our true intentions...Looking to a disordered person to reciprocate the kind intentions you have may not be effective.

This entire comment was great & worth reposting.

[hands down]

I have arthritis.    My arthritis manifests in ways unique to me.    No matter how much I want to, and no matter how much I attempt to, I am not going to be able to open that stupid jar.     Biology has limits.   These are mine.   I think my Ex had biological limits on how her brain experienced and processed the emotions of daily living.   She could open that jar in the kitchen no problem, but couldn't do other things.     Personally, I don't believe that BPD is a moral failure.   I remember reading that epilepsy used to be considered a problem of influence of the moon and that exorcism was considered the best treatment.    I believe that some day, probably way in the future, our understanding of how the brain actually works will show a biological, structural, physical component to BPD.

my two cents
'ducks

this is what makes loving someone wBPD have so much dissonance for me...  I fully appreciate mental illnesses, i watched my grandfather nurse my grandmother (alzheimer's) years after she remembered who she was...  S**T it is such a hard thing for me, knowing the illness exactly as an illness, and if someone was a paraplegic, i'd not criticize them for not walking...  but at the same time I also have to know and value my worth and how I am treated.

two more cents

[Good Intentions]

That would be illogical, yes.  

I suppose so many struggle with accepting this because in the end, the only real "solution" to the "problem" is to leave and find a non-disordered partner.  If one can't do that - for whatever reason - the hope that there may be improvement over time, or one can at least learn to manage the conflict better is all the Nons can cling to.  

Your post reminded me of something else someone told me about BPD early in my understanding of the disorder: it was notorious for it's "crazy making" capabilities.  People in relationships with pwBPD often end up going to therapy themselves... and they claimed ironically NONS seek help more than the pwBPD that cause the chaos and disorder.

This was very relatable perspective. I'm 3 weeks post-discard and the difficulty surrounding acceptance is absolutely related to the crushing realization that the only "solution" doesn't feel like one at all.

[hands down]

This was very relatable perspective. I'm 3 weeks post-discard and the difficulty surrounding acceptance is absolutely related to the crushing realization that the only "solution" doesn't feel like one at all.

I am in your boat...  I had a challenging relationship for 16ish years.  been divorced almost 5 and I VERY much value commitment. I had vowed to never divorce again unless it was ENTIRELY a last resort.  Then boom an instant knee jerk discard from someone who I thought I knew well and pledged my commitment to... 

it can be rather shell shocking and also a source of strength through pain

[LDRStrugglebus]

This thread is so relatable. It's frustrating how our partners with BPD are the ones who start the arguments by making us feel like we're unworthy, yet somehow they end up being the victim. As if only we had been better partners, they wouldn't have to feel this way.

My partner is currently splitting and is super emotionally dysregulated right now, which I think is triggered by some stressor at work and is projecting his lack of stable sense of self on me (probably so that he doesn't have to feel a sense of shame about himself). He'll open himself up and be vulnerable to me one moment, and then the next will throw it in my face that he thinks I'm not outgoing enough. He's super attention seeking and wants me to be the same way, as if the behavior embodies confidence or whatever and if somehow I do what he asks it'll reflect better on him?

The dissonance is so strong within me and is making me doubt myself worth. I've never thought of myself as not being confident but somehow he makes me feel like I am or should be insecure? But also he's trying to help me not be insecure? It's so frustrating and really toying with my emotions too because he'll tell me how much he misses me and how sad he is even though he's doing this to himself!

[Good Intentions]

@LDRStrugglebus - glad you find this forum as relatable & validating as I do.

I read this idea somewhere else on this website and it's relevant to your first comment - even though the pwBPD is typically the instigator / abuser, they instinctively adopt the mentality of a victim because victims aren't responsible. Victims aren't to be blamed. Victims don't have to accept accountability or face feelings of shame/regret/remorse/disappointment in themselves. As long as they can sell themselves on the narrative that you're wronging them in some way (no matter how illogical) then they never have to take ownership of the obvious ways they create/perpetuate conflict.

And I can absolutely relate to your reflection that the dissonance is so strong it causes you to question your own reality - your value/worth, your confidence, your ability to be loving, etc.

One of my strongest revelations has been the effect of the repeated cycle of - pwBPD questions my love/character, and then I feel compelled to reassure/demonstrate my love to prove to my pwBPD that I truly do possess all of these positive qualities that everyone in my life agrees I exhibit.

Constantly trying to convince my partner (on at least a weekly basis) that I love her, that she can trust my acceptance of her, that I have no thoughts of leaving her, is extremely draining and it causes us to lose our sense of self. Everyone else knows that I'm an empathetic, benevolent man, but when my partner is constantly questioning it, that can cause me to start doubting myself.

[Cat Familiar]

Constantly trying to convince my partner (on at least a weekly basis) that I love her, that she can trust my acceptance of her, that I have no thoughts of leaving her, is extremely draining and it causes us to lose our sense of self. Everyone else knows that I'm an empathetic, benevolent man, but when my partner is constantly questioning it, that can cause me to start doubting myself.

You’ve been giving her a free pass to say you’re not empathetic, kind, to be trusted. Because she’s a *victim*. Let’s turn this around.

What if you were to question her intent in the same way? To say to her that she’s not empathetic, kind, or trustworthy. I’d bet you’d see the *victim* disappear and the *abuser* show up very quickly.

And why is it that we have to constantly defend our honor? I find that if I don’t defend against complaints that I’m thoughtless or selfish, those accusations quickly go away. Because they don’t work.

I still do try and assure him that I love him, but sometimes I think, “Wait a minute, why not ask for reassurance that he loves me?” I guess I’ll give it a try next time the issue comes up.