Beginning for forgiveness

[15years]

This is such a hard one for me to get my head around.

After days of fighting over a single issue and I refuse to apologize because I'm not sorry about it. She is hurt so an apology could be motivated by thinking "why not beg for forgiveness if I hurt her?". Of course I didn't hurt her really. Sometimes I do but in that case I can say I'm sorry without hesitation.

How does these two concepts fit into this situation:
1. Pick your battles
Maybe it's not worth fighting over.
2. Intermittent reinforcement
If I say sorry immidiately it doesn't leave much of a mark.

Problem though is I don't think "I'm sorry" will be enough either way. Then comes the "I need a real apology you have to take full responsibility!" reply.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Notwendy]

Keep in mind that abusive people don't take responsibility for their actions- they often blame the person for their abuse to justify it. "You hurt me"

Abuse is a cycle. It's a release valve for emotions. After the event, the person feels better- and may even act remorseful or nicer. The abused person sees this as progress- there's hope, maybe things will be better this time, but in a cycle, the feelings build up- then another episode.

The Karpman triangle can explain the "you hurt me". From my experience, the person with BPD takes victim perspective.

Keep in mind, for every behavior, there's a benefit and a cost. The cost may be high, such as an addiction. Someone addicted to drugs may face consequences to their health, relationships, finances but the feelings they have when on drugs are a benefit that outweighs the cost. This is also a factor in relationships.

There is a benefit to victim position, and that is- a victim is not accountable. You can't blame a victim. They did what they did because "you hurt them". It justifies their actions so they don't feel shame for them.

Victim position needs a persecutor. In the Karpman triangle, there are only two roles left ( persecutor and rescuer) , and the roles can change. So your wife is victim. When you "hurt her" ( in her thinking, not necessarily reality) - she is victim, you are persecutor, therefore she is entitled to hurt you back. In this next scenario - she abuses you, and you become the victim. But to her, she is always the victim. And truthfully, you are not a victim because you have choices (tough ones, but choices). A true victim is someone who doesn't have a choice, who can not fend for themselves or make decisions for themselves. There's only one victim in this situation and that is the children.

You are correct in that an apology might fend her off temporarily, but the abuse episode works for her in that it releases her difficult emotions for her ,therefore, each time she gets to do it, it reinforces this behavior. Unless she learns another way to handle her emotions, this is what she does to make herself feel better. And so she can't be responsible for her actions, she needs to find some "reason" to do them, and that "reason" is that you "hurt her".

I don't know the reason behind her actions  but there is a need for her to be abusive to a man, as you described, there's some odd gender thinking going on. "A man needs to be strong enough to take her abuse".  But abuse is harmful. Basically you need to be a human punching bag and I don't see anything loving or humane in that idea. ( or "manly" in thinking you need to be that way).

Pushing for the apology is pushing the boundary. She needs a reason to let her feelings out. She needs you to take her abuse. The usual advice to hold the boundary and let them be angry is different when there is physical abuse involved as this could lead to serious injury. So that question, should you apologize, how to handle this, really needs professional advice.

The other question is - you have tolerated this behavior, participated in letting her abuse you. Looking at the behavior model, the benefit for you so far has exceeded the cost in some way.

I think that physical abuse requires professional advice and hope you seek that so you know what your options are. The question "should you apologize" is not a single incident, but part of a long standing pattern. Apologizing won't be a long term solution but it might temporarily buy you a bit of time so she doesn't hurt you in the moment. If not apologizing means she's going to physically harm you, and you are unwilling to get out of harm's way, then that isn't a solution either.







 

[15years]

When the demand for an apology turns to "I need a REAL apology for everything you've done" I'm completely lost. And terrified. Sorry I don't have time to answer everything you write but I'm thankful.

[Notwendy]

Have you asked her what she means by a "real apology"?

[GaGrl]

When the demand for an apology turns to "I need a REAL apology for everything you've done" I'm completely lost. And terrified. Sorry I don't have time to answer everything you write but I'm thankful.

Your wife appears to require apologies at a level of groveling. This is unacceptable.

[15years]

Have you asked her what she means by a "real apology"?

Many times, I can't ask it anymore, questions makes her angry. It means she wants me to take full responsibility, whatever that means. I've asked her what that means too. I think she wants me to say what she's feeling. Tell her I'm sorry but still care for her like a dad. Her mom used to yell at her and shame for not being social enough as a child. Her dad didn't step in to defend her.

[15years]

Your wife appears to require apologies at a level of groveling. This is unacceptable.

What do I do? I used to really try but my attempts has never been that great because I simply don't know what to say. It appears that taking on the blame works. "I've been abusive" kind of responsibility.

Then she also wants me to say why I really hurt her, the REAL reason. Looking at other women means I try to make her jealous because I'm not at all attracted to anyone else. Why I would bother to intentionally hurt her like that puzzles her very much. It's very discomforting, but my apology should also add an acceptable explanation, maybe that I'm so afraid to loose her that I have to make her jealous so she'll stay. Impossible to apologize when she can't handle the truth. I've said it before on here, I've confessed to weird things she has come up with as explanations to my betrayals. She suggest something and I somehow agree to make it go away.

[Notwendy]

What truth do you think she can’t handle? I mean do you want to make her jealous because you are afraid to lose her? Or is that something she said?

Is there something you are afraid to tell her ?

No need to post details or anything that could incriminate you. I’m mostly asking if you are afraid to tell her something you did - and also how afraid you are of losing her

[15years]

One unacceptable truth is that I find other women attractive, even some women she may hate. She say she wouldn't bother if I thought someone was attractive if she agrees. My ex from when I was 15 years old is not someone she finds attractive, and even today 16 years later I have to explain why I dated her. She can't stand the truth, in this case that I wasn't unattracted my ex. She wasn't my dream girl but she wasn't completely ugly either. THAT is totally unacceptable to my wife. And to think that this girl took my virginity was the subject of all our early fights, that I wasn't a virgin. I think I was traumatized as a teenager to deal with that all by myself, never told anyone about it but it was very hard, she didn't have as many creative ideas to express her anger then so I didn't understand why she was so hurt but I knew I had destroyed our relationship by not being a virgin. Some religious people obviously agree and it's not completely without logic I confess. Sex is a very intimate thing and it's romantic to only share it with one person ever. But it's wasn't that important to me.

I send teenage me my love for being so completely alone.

I bet that was only a share of what growing up with a bpd mother feels like.

[Notwendy]

There are two books that I think you will find help explain these dynamics. One is The Verbally Abusive Relationship and the other is Controlling People, both by Patricia Evans. I think these books will help explain the dynamics around these actions. Physical abuse is well defined. It's clear when someone physically hurts you. Verbal, and emotional abuse are often less obvious, so it helps to have them defined. This is not specific to BPD but having BPD doesn't negate abuse or the effect it has on the ones who are subjected to it. BPD does not excuse it.

15 years of listening to your wife's world view, in an abusive setting can cause you to abandon your own view, and own ideas and subscribe to hers. One of the phenomena that is explained in the books is how having different thoughts and ideas is perceived as threatening to the abusive person, and so is unacceptable.

Not being a virgin is an example of the perfect thing to bring up and blame you for, because, you can't go back in time and change that. Neither can you read her mind and know exactly how to apologize for something you did a long time ago. It seems that also you have adopted her thinking that what you did was somehow wrong. It wasn't wrong. In very religious communities this is valued and yet, most religions offer forgiveness and grace, not continued blame.

You are not the same person you were at 15. I don't know if you felt traumatized by the experience or your wife's reaction to it is traumatic to you, but in actuality, you were a teen age boy and did probably what most teen age boys would do given the opportunity - due to hormones and not having the most mature judgement. Or possibly you just really liked the girl and the two of you were being teenagers together. This is not something you need to be apologizing for over and over again.
I wish you could recognize this. The only issue to apologize for is if you lied to her about being a virgin and if you did, then you can apologize but you don't have to do this over and over. If she wanted to marry a virgin and you said you were, then she has to decide to accept you as the person you are now, or not, because you can't change that.

Consider this- even if you committed a crime as a 15 year old, in the US you would be tried as a juvenile because people recognize that a teen has not developed to maturity. This would not remain on an adult record. If a crime doesn't, then it is not appropriate to keep bringing this up and it isn't a crime.

Likewise with attraction. The Patricia Evans books explain this well. However, you are a separate person. You have your own ideas about what is attractive. She doesn't get to control this. You also don't need to share this feeling with her and I suggest you don't. It's hurtful to see your spouse staring at someone else and saying they are attractive. Just because you are married doesn't mean you don't notice. It does mean you don't act on it in the same way as if you were single. It's not something to be ashamed of or apologize for. Why do you think good looking movie stars are so popular? People find them attractive. It's human nature.

I think it would help you to learn more about these different kinds of abuse so you can be aware of them and not buy into this kind of thinking. You can't control how your wife thinks but neither can she control how you think. We can't control someone else's thoughts and feelings.

[Notwendy]

I forgot to mention, the genders in the book are male abuser, female partner, but this can be either gender. The dynamics are helpful to any gender.

[15years]

Thank you for the book recommendations, right now I'm listening to Stop Caretaking for the Borderline or Narcissist. I will check if they are available on audible later.

[15years]

When she tells me how pathetic I am for not actively working towards forgiveness, I actually struggle to see that she's not right. But I do think she's mean.

We watched "The Weekend Away" on Netflix yesterday and we both enjoyed it even though it wasn't quite the masterpiece   Right after it ended she told me I reminded her of two of the male villians in the movie, and NOT the hero. I'm passive, a liar, controlling, a low-value man.

And right there I can't see how I would be worth anything.


Notwendy, adding to what we've earlier discussed, she's not exactly into gender equality rather much more into gender differences and how men and women should be instead of how they are in todays society, for example low-value vs high-value men and women. The latest topic is "wounded man/woman vs. awakened/divine man/woman". She is often quite optimistic and wants us to evolve together. She thinks she is evolving to an awakened woman who embraces her femininity, and gets frustrated when I'm not evolving to an awakened man.

I suspect this is all about her wanting me to think and feel like her. And she expects me to be like her but one step ahead, which is impossible. So coming back to the forgiveness theme, she wants me to know what new ways she feels i should take responsibility before she feels them. Am I right?

[babyducks]

I suspect this is all about her wanting me to think and feel like her. And she expects me to be like her but one step ahead, which is impossible. So coming back to the forgiveness theme, she wants me to know what new ways she feels i should take responsibility before she feels them. Am I right?

If you are the one 'actively working towards forgiveness'  and she is the the one dispensing forgiveness,  who has all the power in the relationship?

If she is the one who decides when or if to forgive, then she has complete control.   Right?

Is it possible that having complete 100% control of the dynamic of the relationship makes her feel more comfortable?     more secure perhaps?

if she is the only one defining all the parameters and conditions of a shared relationship, how is that relationship supposed to work?    I am not sure what an awakened man/woman is.    but it does sound like something she is completely in charge of.     

I would suggest you consider how and who is defining apologies and forgiveness, and how that might be adding to the dysfunction.

'ducks

[Notwendy]

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-mysteries-love/201503/15-disturbing-forms-verbal-abuse-in-relationships

Defining you, expecting you to read her mind, constantly work towards "forgiveness" ( of her choosing what that is) for something you have no reason to ask forgiveness for, is IMHO, emotionally abusive to you.

[Notwendy]

I think people tend to assume that if we say someone is abusive, it means they are evil. This might be true in some situations but abusive people are not necessarily evil and they can even be kind and loving and good to others as times. Just because your wife may be kind or loving at times also doesn't mean she isn't abusive. But the effect of abuse on the partner are damaging regardless of the reason.

The idea of you having to think like her is covered in Patricia Evan's Controlling People book. In short summary, just as a child has a comfort object, like a Teddy Bear, the partner of a controlling person serves the purpose of being their comfort object and the "Teddy" needs to think and do as they say. Whenever the "Teddy" expresses a thought or idea of their own, this need isn't met for them. They get angry and then abusive to the "Teddy"

BPD is a spectrum disorder but abuse and control of the partner are an aspect of how they manage their own uncomfortable feelings. With poor boundaries and enmeshment, they see their partners and children as extensions of themselves. They may project their uncomfortable feelings and poor self image on to you, then punish you for what is actually an aspect of themselves. This is disordered thinking and again, it is damaging to the partner. ( and also other family members).

Regardless of any reason, your wife is physically abusive and so can potentially harm you. Whatever her motive, you have the right to keep yourself safe.

[15years]

https://subconsciousservant.com/divine-masculine-awakening-symptoms/

I don't know, this sounds like a cult to me. The way it usually goes she is very open to different spiritual movements but never more then a few days. She shows me an article and rage at me for not responding the way she expects me to. Couple of days later she thinks the movement is lame but that she learned something from it.

In this case she wanted me to comment something about sex. That I always knew it was sacred but pretended not to know that.

[Notwendy]

Oh gosh the board is back!

So, you read this article your wife presented and think it's a cultish- you don't agree with it. That's fine, you don't have to adopt her way of thinking. You are you, and she is who she is. That is a boundary.

You know, anyone can write a blog with their own ideas and anyone can think what they want about it. People have their own spiritual beliefs, they don't all agree. Your wife can believe anything she wants to. So can you- and also not buy into something if you don't agree with it.

Patricia Evans discusses this topic a bit in her Controlling People book.

Regardless, continuing to bring things up that you either have apologized for or don't need to apologize for is shaming and abusive. She must be getting some benefit for this behavior or she wouldn't continue doing it. Your buying into her thinking is reinforcing this behavior on her part. So I would say it stops when you stop doing that.