looking for advice

[tiredheart]

Hi all,
New here. My wife and I, both in our early 30s, are together for a bit more than 3 years and married for half a year. My wife is not officially diagnosed with anything, but I strongly suspect she has something along the lines of BPD.
Main issues: extreme mood swings, false accusations (me cheating and spying on her, installing microphones or hidden cameras in our apartment), and aggressive behavior, such as frequent yelling, cursing, throwing stuff (on the floor, never at me), and slamming doors. My default reaction is to absorb and wait for the storm to pass.

We are both in individual therapy and have recently started couples counseling. Therapy helped me be both more confident and establish boundaries while validating her feelings, though I wish I were more successful with the latter.

I'm conflicted. I believe the woman I fell in love with still exists, but it's tough for me to hold on. I am very, very tired and anxious. My life basically divides between my work as a medical resident and being home, trying to listen to her and comfort her. In order to spend more time with my wife, I gave up all my hobbies and "extracurricular activities" that can help me in my career. I'm doing the bare minimum in order to survive at my work.

I was hoping to get some advice from you:
1) My libido had diminished to zero throughout the last year. I believe it is due to me feeling more like a caregiver than a lover, and some hidden fear of having children while me being uncertain of our future together. I feel uncomfortably tense when she touches me. This lack of sexual activity, in turn, makes her even more sure I'm having an affair. Did you experience similar problems?

2) I'm wondering whether I should change my career to a less demanding one (still in medicine, but not what I hoped for myself when I started). I feel like having a 9 to 5 job might help her feel more secure and less lonely. Your thoughts?

Thank you

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi tiredheart, 

Welcome! You'll find many others here who will be able to relate to you. I'm glad you found this sight.

It sounds like your body and your mind are very stressed and so tired these days between work and trying to balance what's going on at home.  What do you think you'd like to do, for you? Do you want to switch jobs for a time and see if that helps some? There are many in the medical field who are very burned out right now and for good reason.

I've read many posts here about the hypervigilance felt by the nonBPD with their SO, and it can be a real turn off to any sexual desire. Many with BPD behaviors can be quite the opposite and have very strong sexual drives which then makes your situation even more complex. When you listen to what your body is saying, what do you need the most: sleep, rest, exercise, sunshine, the outdoors? What do you do to take care of you?

I'm sure others will be along soon to offer their thoughts too.

Really glad you took time to share and looking forward to hearing more. 

Wools

[thankful person]

Hi tired heart and welcome,
This is the best place you can be to learn about bpd and get support and advice from others. I joined here a year ago and it had really helped my marriage, even though my wife is not aware that I’ve been working to improve things. I recommend the book, “stop caretaking the borderline or narcissist”. Also, “stop walking on eggshells” although that one took longer to sink in. I have bought about five audio books which I listen to repeatedly in my car and when working. I don’t have a therapist but the books are very validating, along with these wonderful people I’ve met on here.
(1) I have never been able to give my wife the sex life she craves. We are in a lesbian marriage and she completely seduced me when I was still with my ex and I found a whole new side of myself. But as soon as we actually became a couple, I have never seemed good enough for her. We rarely have sex now as we have two young children who sleep in the bed with her. She used to blame me but since I have been working on my own inner strength then this has stopped recently. When I joined here I was terrified for my children’s mental health with the atmosphere they were growing up in, particularly my wife’s jealousy over my relationship with our eldest. But things have improved so much. They are almost enjoying a normal stable childhood now. I am so relieved and thankful for everyone on the forum. But yes it is certainly advisable to hopefully make improvements to your relationship before any babies arrive. Is your wife hoping for a baby soon?
(2) Be very, very careful of making sacrifices to try and keep your wife happy. I’ve read it is like throwing one thing after another that you love into a black hole. It will never be full so I believe trying this actually won’t make your wife happy, more secure, or less lonely. I know this because that’s what I did for seven years before I found the forum. I wrote posts on here about how much I had given up for her. I wasn’t “allowed” to take photos of our children or send them to my mother. Just a small example but my mother was so upset and that’s what motivated me to start making brave changes.. I have now claimed a lot of the power back in this relationship. Amazingly my wife is calmer, she seems more mature, and is treating me much better now.
I wish you all the best and hope you can find some help here as you work your way through this difficult time.

[Rev]

Hi Tired,

Let me join others in saying welcome. You seem to be on a good road to carving out some clarity for yourself.

I won't say a whole lot to let others weigh in except to say this: A journey with a person with any kind of mood disorder really does start with personal clarity. At first that seems counter intuitive and for some even scary.

Counter intuitive because there's a bias that a relationship is based on mutual give and take. A mood disorder means that a relationship has more of an on again/off again feel to it. And so clarity helps a person decide when the relationship is on or off, and this before deciding whether to engage a partner or to back off.

For some this is scary because with clarity can come a change of heart or realization that a person may be in over their head. You are hear on the bettering board and so I won't go into any doomsday scenarios.

Instead, I wish you well in finding the clarity you need to decide and figure out how to have your needs met in the relationship without a) losing yourself in it and b) breaking something that you are hoping to mend.

I hope and pray that counseling is fruitful for you.

Hang in there.

Rev

[Cat Familiar]

External changes that you make in your life will not make your wife feel more secure. You’ve already experienced that in giving up your hobbies and extracurricular activities.

It seems that BPD signs and symptoms increase when commitment deepens, and since you’ve been married, she probably has quit holding back some of the disturbing behavior she suppressed at the beginning of your relationship.

You’re wise to be concerned about bringing a child into the world. Often a child will increase the problematic behavior of a spouse, and later when a child begins individuating and no longer is compliant, it becomes threatening to the BPD parent. Many of us here on this forum were children of BPD parents and have replicated the dyfunctionality we grew up with in our personal relationships.

Go after your dream in your career. This is the time. Sacrificing your hopes in order to placate your wife will be ineffective and will result in resentment.

[Rev]

External changes that you make in your life will not make your wife feel more secure. You’ve already experienced that in giving up your hobbies and extracurricular activities.

It seems that BPD signs and symptoms increase when commitment deepens, and since you’ve been married, she probably has quit holding back some of the disturbing behavior she suppressed at the beginning of your relationship.

You’re wise to be concerned about bringing a child into the world. Often a child will increase the problematic behavior of a spouse, and later when a child begins individuating and no longer is compliant, it becomes threatening to the BPD parent. Many of us here on this forum were children of BPD parents and have replicated the dyfunctionality we grew up with in our personal relationships.

Go after your dream in your career. This is the time. Sacrificing your hopes in order to placate your wife will be ineffective and will result in resentment.

Hi again Tired

Cat has done a much better job of bottom lining it than me.  She is bang on with her advice.

Even though you are on the bettering board, my experience leads me to believe that once a ring is on the finger, a truer version of the person you are married to surfaces. It varies in degrees. In my case it took 24 hours and escalated rapidly - and like Cat says - I almost lost sight of my own goals. In fact I almost lost everything.

I'm not wanting to assume the worst - and yet there is something very compelling it what she is writing here. Please be cautious and up front with yourself. AND - YES - I would hold off on having children.

Rev

[alterK]

Well, tired, you are getting a lot of advice. As a retired ER/MD I'll add my 2 cents.

Residency is a stressful time for anyone, and your interpersonal coping energies can be drained by your work. So don't expect the impossible of yourself. Ideally, your relationship(s) outside of work should give you support and relief. Sounds like your marriage is the opposite.

Cat is correct, if your W indeed has BPD, her demands come from a bottomless pit of fear: Fear that she will be abandoned, that she will be found out to be a bad/stupid/inadequate person, that she will never be taken care of properly...Every pwBPD is different. You can never fill that bottomless pit, no matter what you do, no matter how many concessions you make.

It's a basic principle that bringing a child into a marriage that's already in trouble almost always makes things worse, and in your case I agree again with Cat. You would be adding another person whose welfare would be endangered.

Sounds like you are already getting demoralized and near exhaustion. What just about everyone here will advise you is that you need to take care of yourself. What that should consist of is, obviously, your decision. It may mean spending time doing things you like to do--whether that's walking, sports, reading, playing music, whatever.

If you need to take time off from your residency or switch tracks, people do that. But if you expect that will make it possible for you to better satisfy your wife's demands, no chance. All you will be doing is continuing to exhaust yourself trying to fill that bottomless pit.

Many of us, me included, change course during our medical careers. Nothing wrong with that. However, these decisions affect the whole rest of your life. You should not make them based on desperation and on nothing more than an attempt to get some relief from problems outside of work. You made it through medical school, into residency. Make your decisions on what you believe will be best for you. You are entitled to that.

[tiredheart]

Thank you all for your comments and advice!
I'm glad this board exists, it was helpful for me to read about the various experiences and stories people described here, positive and negative.

I feel guilty for not being there enough for her. We both knew that I'll have a couple of hard years ahead, with long workdays/nights, though perhaps she (and I) didn't expect how it'll influence her. I try to be home whenever she's home as much as I can, but it doesn't always work out. She feels lonely and I feel guilty. On the one hand, I feel like I want to be there for her and support her. On the other hand, even if it'll help, I don't want to end up resentful and unfulfilled.

There are "calm" days that make me think that everything is going to be fine and it's all just a phase. In the beginning, there were a couple of red flags when we just started dating but I ignored them. Once we moved in together 1.5 years ago (she is the first girlfriend I lived with) I thought this was just normal behavior that one can expect when living together with a very sensitive person, which I saw at the time as a positive trait. It took me a while, with the help of the internet and then a therapist, to understand that the stuff that I've experienced during our relationship wasn't normal.

I constantly oscillate between an optimistic state of mind to "I can't handle it anymore" mode, but I decided to not give up just yet and invest time and money in therapy, individually and together (quite costly). Therapy started after I've set it as an ultimatum following a couple of her violent incidents, especially after she drank a bit too much with friends (I made it clear that it was either that or divorce).
I'm quite overwhelmed by how fast her feelings towards me change. A very recent example - after a relatively good day with positive and calm interactions (we had a bad week after she decided again I'm cheating on her), I returned home earlier than she did and prepared a small dinner for us. Since the food was out for ~10 minutes prior to her arrival, it wasn't hot. Bad timing on my part. I was waiting for us to sit and eat together but it didn't happen. She was extremely angry, saying I'm selfish and that I only think about myself. I suggested I could quickly warm it up for her, but she wasn't interested and eventually threw the plate at the sink, breaking it (this is a repeating scene). On a positive note - after an hour, probably as a result of some strategies we got from our couples counselor (me giving her space while saying I'm available for a talk as soon as she wants to), she apologized, said she had a hard day, and asked for a back rub, which I was more than happy to provide.

Writing all of this, I must admit I feel odd. I never imagined married life will be like that. I guess it's safe to assume nobody does.

Rev, Cat Familiar, and alterK - I agree, we shouldn't have children right now. Beyond the fact that I want to wait ~2 years until my schedule will be a bit more normal, I fear the mood swings and aggressions will deteriorate further once she's pregnant. Furthermore, she plans to stay home with our future kids for the first couple of years (she has a full-time job right now). I will fully support her either way - being a stay-at-home mom for a couple of years or going back to work and relying on daycares, but I'm afraid staying at home alone with the kids will make her condition even worse. I've observed that whenever she has too much free time she spirals into a very dark mindset.

alterK, you wrote

Ideally, your relationship(s) outside of work should give you support and relief.

I wish I had that. I never imagined being so stressed before entering my own home.

Regarding some questions you included in your comments:
Woolspinner2000,

What do you think you'd like to do, for you? Do you want to switch jobs for a time and see if that helps some?

I'm not sure. I hoped a therapist will guide me to the right decision for me, but I'm still trying to "assess the situation" and understand whether we could work through it. I'm still conflicted regarding work since that will be a dramatic move, I'm still contemplating different options (long vacation, pause, or change my career route).

When you listen to what your body is saying, what do you need the most: sleep, rest, exercise, sunshine, the outdoors? What do you do to take care of you?

I probably need quieter, drama-free, time at home. I used to see myself as someone that can operate reasonably well under stressful events, intensive work+study, and minimal sleep. While I think I'm better adjusted right now in terms of diet and sleep, the frequent and high-intensity drama at home overwhelms my mind. I feel like a mess.

Broken person,

But yes it is certainly advisable to hopefully make improvements to your relationship before any babies arrive. Is your wife hoping for a baby soon?

We both want kids but are not in a hurry about starting (to try) this year (I'm 31 and she's 30). I want to wait with having kids until my work schedule will be more reasonable in ~2 years, since I want to be very much involved in childcare from day one. However, I'm really scared of maintaining our current relationship dynamics in front of any future children. Her mood swings can sometimes turn a bit too aggressive, with light hitting and kicking towards me and our pets (a dog and a cat). I seems like PMS makes it worse, and I'm frightened by the idea of it getting even harder during pregnancy.

(I read, or rather listened, to Mason and Kreger's book. I've just started listening to Fjelstad's)
I can really relate to the controlling behavior you've experienced by your partner. You wrote, "I have now claimed a lot of the power back in this relationship" - how did you do that?

Sorry for my rambling,
Thank you all again

[T0M]

Hello Tiredheart

When I read these kind of stories it baffles me how easy it is to give somebody advise (which was exactly what I was going to do) in saying you should not tolerate that behavior or, you should leave her, and yet, I'm in exactly the same position and can not say it to myself.

If I'm honest to myself I'm also avoiding a lot of activities that I would do if when I was in a 'normal' relationship.
- Saying yes more often to activities my friends invite me for
- Spend a day gardening at my own place (we do not live together)
- Visiting my family
- Read a book
- Work longer to get rid of my email backlog
...

The thing is, that my GF with BPD SAYS to me I should do them, but when I actually do them, it is prove I do not want to be with her.
She SAYS I can stay up to watch a movie, but when I do, it is because I do not want to go to bed with her because I do not want to have sex with her anymore.
She SAYS I can stay in bed if I don't need to be up early, but when I do, she blames me of not being involved and that I'm avoiding her. Hoping she already left when I wake up.
She ASKS very gentle if I want to play Basketball in the evening, but when I say I do, she becomes very angry, again for the reasons mentioned above.

It almost seems that she has this book knowledge of how to treat your partner, but can not actually cope with it.

I learned that it is important to just go ahead with what you have planned for. These days I rather take the  storm, and be rejuvenated, than take the storm (it will happen anyway) and not have the energy boost.

[thankful person]

I can really relate to the controlling behavior you've experienced by your partner. You wrote, "I have now claimed a lot of the power back in this relationship" - how did you do that?

So, the first thing I did “against my wife’s wishes” was to tell her that I was now going to be taking pictures of our baby and sending them to my mother, whenever I wanted to. I did not do this the right way because it was before I found the forum. My wife reacted very badly and said our relationship was over for disrespecting her wishes. She seemed very serious and only didn’t leave because she was heavily pregnant with our second. But for several months she refused any physical contact or saying she loved me and kept saying she wanted me gone. She forgave me shortly before our new baby arrived.
At some point I found the forum here. People were getting me to think about the things I had given up for my wife and it was pretty much everything I used to gain pleasure from. So I listed those things out and then wrote a post about the things I wanted to be different. Things I could control like, “I want to video call my parents whenever I want” Some things are more complicated like actually visiting my parents, but I’m pushing more for such things too. So I just started doing certain things. Not asking permission, just doing… little things she had told me not to do. She didn’t like me having more showers than her. Had told me not to wear certain clothes. Didn’t want me playing the piano. She was mostly more accepting than I expected of me breaking these “rules”. I learnt there are two parts to such issues. One is handling her reactions in the best possible way. The other is for me personally to be less bothered by her reactions. You are not responsible for your wife’s feelings. It is wonderful that you want to be there for her and take care of her. But what I have found is that my wife has gained confidence since I stopped trying to do things to protect her from the harsh reality of life (eg. Your partner may not want to be with you 100% of the time.) When your wife leads you into a trap of encouraging you to do things for yourself, and then lays a guilt trip on you afterwards… you could try just acknowledging her feelings and that it must be hard for her. Then state - just once - what the benefits were for you. I found that by not “arguing” this fixed many of our problems. After validating feelings I would stand up for myself and then if she wanted to get aggressive or shout I have learnt to walk away for some time. I tell her when I’m returning and go do whatever. I don’t know why this is all working so well, she really was (potentially still is) an extremely difficult person to deal with. Also remember that the things your wife says are not necessarily what she thinks but verbal attacks will come out of bpd mouths when they feel threatened, they simply reflect the feelings she is going through and are sometimes not about you at all. Through following all this advice, my wife is actually calmer the stronger I have become and the less desperate to please her. Sorry my reply seems very jumbled. I feel I’m still muddling through and I want to share but I’m still mind blown from how much things have changed. I know I’m doing something right but it’s hard to explain sometimes. I have also learnt to be compassionate towards myself. To speak kindly to myself, rather than be angry with myself for upsetting my wife, I’m telling myself how well I’m doing. I used to hate myself but I learnt recently that I need to learn self-compassion so that I can model it for my children. That was enough to motivate me to look after myself better.

[Rev]

So, the first thing I did “against my wife’s wishes” was to tell her that I was now going to be taking pictures of our baby and sending them to my mother, whenever I wanted to. I did not do this the right way because it was before I found the forum. My wife reacted very badly and said our relationship was over for disrespecting her wishes. She seemed very serious and only didn’t leave because she was heavily pregnant with our second. But for several months she refused any physical contact or saying she loved me and kept saying she wanted me gone. She forgave me shortly before our new baby arrived.
At some point I found the forum here. People were getting me to think about the things I had given up for my wife and it was pretty much everything I used to gain pleasure from. So I listed those things out and then wrote a post about the things I wanted to be different. Things I could control like, “I want to video call my parents whenever I want” Some things are more complicated like actually visiting my parents, but I’m pushing more for such things too. So I just started doing certain things. Not asking permission, just doing… little things she had told me not to do. She didn’t like me having more showers than her. Had told me not to wear certain clothes. Didn’t want me playing the piano. She was mostly more accepting than I expected of me breaking these “rules”. I learnt there are two parts to such issues. One is handling her reactions in the best possible way. The other is for me personally to be less bothered by her reactions. You are not responsible for your wife’s feelings. It is wonderful that you want to be there for her and take care of her. But what I have found is that my wife has gained confidence since I stopped trying to do things to protect her from the harsh reality of life (eg. Your partner may not want to be with you 100% of the time.) When your wife leads you into a trap of encouraging you to do things for yourself, and then lays a guilt trip on you afterwards… you could try just acknowledging her feelings and that it must be hard for her. Then state - just once - what the benefits were for you. I found that by not “arguing” this fixed many of our problems. After validating feelings I would stand up for myself and then if she wanted to get aggressive or shout I have learnt to walk away for some time. I tell her when I’m returning and go do whatever. I don’t know why this is all working so well, she really was (potentially still is) an extremely difficult person to deal with. Also remember that the things your wife says are not necessarily what she thinks but verbal attacks will come out of bpd mouths when they feel threatened, they simply reflect the feelings she is going through and are sometimes not about you at all. Through following all this advice, my wife is actually calmer the stronger I have become and the less desperate to please her. Sorry my reply seems very jumbled. I feel I’m still muddling through and I want to share but I’m still mind blown from how much things have changed. I know I’m doing something right but it’s hard to explain sometimes. I have also learnt to be compassionate towards myself. To speak kindly to myself, rather than be angry with myself for upsetting my wife, I’m telling myself how well I’m doing. I used to hate myself but I learnt recently that I need to learn self-compassion so that I can model it for my children. That was enough to motivate me to look after myself better.

This is SO SO good.

I'd invite you to keep refining it. It will be useful for others.

Thanks for sharing.

Rev

[thankful person]

This is SO SO good.

I'd invite you to keep refining it. It will be useful for others.

Thanks for sharing.

Rev

Thank you Rev, I learnt everything I know from you guys. I am totally blown away by how much I have managed to change things here, all by myself.

[tiredheart]

thankful person, thank you so much for your message! It contained a lot of hope and good practical advice.

[alterK]

Great comments, thankful, and glad you are making progress. When you are complying with the demands of a pwBPD you may actually be reinforcing their chaotic view of the world. If you find a reasonably kind way to set limits, even though they may object at first, it may actually be reassuring to them.

[thankful person]

When you are complying with the demands of a pwBPD you may actually be reinforcing their chaotic view of the world. If you find a reasonably kind way to set limits, even though they may object at first, it may actually be reassuring to them.

Thank you alterk. Your words are spot on. The more I apologised and tried to please my wife, the more irrational and impossible the rules and demands became. It’s like she has somehow become more sane in response to my actions. It seems akin to the way a child or teenager gains reassurance from clear and consistent boundaries. My parents had few rules or boundaries when I was growing up, so as a child and teen I actually felt uncared for and had extremely low self worth. Ironically I can now see that is why I’ve always sought out controlling partners.

[Rev]

Thank you alterk. Your words are spot on. The more I apologised and tried to please my wife, the more irrational and impossible the rules and demands became. It’s like she has somehow become more sane in response to my actions. It seems akin to the way a child or teenager gains reassurance from clear and consistent boundaries. My parents had few rules or boundaries when I was growing up, so as a child and teen I actually felt uncared for and had extremely low self worth. Ironically I can now see that is why I’ve always sought out controlling partners.

If you can see this, and accept it without beating yourself up, you are golden. Better days are ahead.   I could have said the exact same thing about myself - with the exception that my parents had SO MANY rules. But its the extremes that lead us to feeling empty, right? And so, we accept extreme behavior. 

Well... done...!

Rev

[Notwendy]

2) I'm wondering whether I should change my career to a less demanding one (still in medicine, but not what I hoped for myself when I started). I feel like having a 9 to 5 job might help her feel more secure and less lonely. Your thoughts?

Changing who you are to try to suit her needs will not be as effective as you imagine because you are not the cause of her disorder. If you become her full time, always available, support person, this isn't practical. Who will support the family? What about your goals and wishes?

If you are a medical resident, this is one of the later steps in years of training for a career. Changing to any other career will also take education and training. You are so close to finishing. Giving up now, I think you will not be happy with yourself, you will feel resentful.

Of course you are tired. This is a tiring job and in addition, you are being a support person for your wife. But once you have finished your training, you will have a choice of jobs. You can look at call schedules, locations, and have some choice of how demanding the jobs are.

Once you have finished, if you decide you wish to change careers or medical specialties, that's not impossible. But once you are finished and have your license- you can earn a decent living and then decide. Without this, you won't be able to.

You are tired and worn out now, so changing may look appealing, but you may also be very disappointed in yourself if you don't complete your training.

[WhoaBaby]

Great thread here. I can't add anything more useful than what is already written, but put me on the team of those who say you shouldn't give up your residency or career for your SO. If you do something tells me you might wind up with neither.
My BPDw recently launched into a resounding critique of my top three passions in life (in the arts), and asking me with an angry tone why they were so important to me. The subtext was that she was feeling less important to me, triggering the abandonment reaction. I know she needs affirmation at times like this, but I resist doing that if she tries to invalidate me first, making it a zero sum game. On this site I read of ways to have your life AND your BPD mate too, but it ain't no straight and level road IMO. First though, don't lose touch with yourself!