Depp v. Heard

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Is anyone watching tomorrow?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rl2bk4QUXL8&ab_channel=ColonelKurtz

All a little too familiar.

[BigOof]

Is anyone watching tomorrow?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rl2bk4QUXL8&ab_channel=ColonelKurtz

All a little too familiar.

[PeteWitsend]

Poor Johnny.

It's telling her motion for a PO went nowhere; BPDers always get a rude awakening when they try behave in court like they do in real life... in court you gotta actually present evidence to support your allegations.  And you can't just shout over people (especially the judge) when they don't agree with you.  and making allegations in the first place takes a lot of time and money.  

It was no surprise to me after I filed for divorce why BPDxw kept messaging me separately asking to meet in person and "work things out without these lawyers involved."  

It's also kinda illuminating Johnny Depp picked her for that role.  Anybody else familiar with the novel or the movie?  Near the end of the novel, feeling ignored by her BF, she flirtatiously goes to party with some locals, and ends up getting her BF and his friend beaten up when they try to intervene after the locals get too aggressive with her.  

I remember watching the movie with BPDxw, who was confused why the BF ditched her after that.  she didn't think she did anything wrong.  

another     I failed to heed...

[ForeverDad]

I didn't watch any court action, but that clip compilation did echo what I experienced.  It seems she agreed to the recordings?  Yikes, she felt his passivity merited hitting?  What entitlement.

My ex would strike out when she was ranting and raging, though here I've read that some of those instances could have been dissociation.  Her typical claim afterward was she didn't do it.  I don't care whether she doesn't remember or claims she doesn't remember, if she did it then she's in the wrong.

My court studiously ignored her poor behaviors for eight years.  In our final appearance when I had custody and was seeking majority time, finally the magistrate wrote that my ex should have counseling but didn't order it due to the possible cost.

Please post the outcome of this Depp case.  Will court studiously ignore the mental state of the misbehaving spouse and make the simplest, weakest decision possible?

[15years]

This sounds a lot like the "discussions" I've had with my wife the past couple of months. Do you think that in this conversation, Depp is talking back more than usual to her to get a good recording? I have similar recordings. It's fascinating (and scary) how they can justify and justify and justify no matter what you tell them.

[Notwendy]

Yes, I listened to part of this too and wondered why Depp kept repeating the topic but it led her right into her "justifying" hitting him ( which isn't acceptable) . In general, it sounded like he was perpetuating the circular argument but in the case of getting a recording, it worked to attain that. I surmise that is what he needed.

I don't know the whole of the situation but he's got considerable assets as well as his professional image to protect and so would protect it.

Overall, I think he has his quirks as well but her responses were disturbing.

[BigOof]

It's fascinating (and scary) how they can justify and justify and justify no matter what you tell them.

Blame shifting, projection, justification, entitlement, and all are done with a complete lack of cognitive empathy.

For Heard, she's the victim since Depp won't take her abuse.

[Notwendy]

A topic that interests me is the intergenerational patterns of dysfunction- which also occurs with abuse.

It seems Depp had an abusive mother as well:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10712627/Johnny-Depp-gets-emotional-sister-testifies-abusive-childhood.html

[BigOof]

From https://www.expressandstar.com/news/uk-news/2020/07/07/johnny-depp-i-was-an-easy-target-for-calculating-narcissist-amber-heard/

"She is a calculating, diagnosed borderline personality; she is sociopathic; she is a narcissist; and she is completely emotionally dishonest."

[BigOof]

Johnny Depp live now:

https://www.courttv.com/title/court-tv-live-stream-web/

[NonnyMouse]

What Johnny Depp has been going through, according to his testimony, is horribly familiar. Even down to his saying that some things were strange right from the start, that there were warning signs.

I would recommend watching this live. Edited highlights are not going to pick up on the bits that those with partners with BPD will recognise.

[DazzleD]

She’s been well and truly called out, caught out and rightly so. She’s publicly tried smearing the poor guy for the world to see after gaslighting and abusing him. Fair play to him fighting back. Many of us don’t get that opportunity.

[ForeverDad]

Well, there it is in "black and white" print.  As one news site reported, forensic psychologist "Dr. Shannon Curry delivered a damning assessment of Amber Heard's personality ... Borderline personality disorder and Histrionic personality disorder."

It's not that this hasn't happened in Hollywood, it just doesn't end up in court like this.  On a positive note, this breathes some fresh air — and reality — into the concept (think the USA "Violence Against Women Act") that women are always the helpless victims and men are always the threatening aggressors.

He sued for $50M, she sued for $100M.  What will the jury do?  I can imagine the jury sending them both a wake up to reality message.

For most of us here who were in court for years to address custody and parenting issues, we had to settle for a court and other professionals studiously avoiding the deeper issues.  During my years in and out of domestic court (2005 - 2013) I started with temp no custody and temp alternate weekends (before the final decree) and ended with full custody and majority parenting time during the school year.  It was only at our last court case did a magistrate write that my ex needed counseling... but even so didn't order it.

Edited to add Histrionic ... very notable.

[PeteWitsend]

I've never heard "histrionic personality disorder" before, but I suppose the name is more descriptive than "borderline" which is NOT very descriptive.

Poor Johnny.

I've been following this on twitter as well.  Interesting to me who is rushing to defend her and take her side (but I don't want to drag politics into it).  Kinda makes you wonder if BPD is more common in Washington DC...

To the extent none of us were able to tell our stories like he has been, it sucks we just didn't have the money.  But hopefully, but him doing this, it helps judges and other authorities involved in resolving custody disputes around the country take abuse allegations more seriously, without regard to the gender of each party, or the lack of physical abuse (although in this case there was physical abuse as well).

[Notwendy]

 I also don't want to drag politics into it but I'd venture to say our whole political climate is a dysfunctional relationship

Maybe it took Hollywood to have the power to being domestic abuse of men into the light- and so Depp becomes known as a defender in real life in addition to being a fictional pirate.

[PeteWitsend]

from USA Today:

Histrionic personality disorder, Curry said, is associated with “drama and shallowness,” and a need to be the center of attention.

She said there’s a correlation in the disorder with people who are physically attractive and “utilize their looks to get that attention.”

Hmmm... that explains some of BPDxw's behavior.  She seemed to really crave the adulation of achieving something more than the achievement itself (and certainly A LOT more than doing the work required to achieve something).  

she had her whole sob story about how much she achieved as an immigrant, omitting all the money and time I spent helping her pass professional exams, and being the sole reason she was even able to have the means to stay in the country to take them.  Likewise her story about being proud to become an American citizen, which apparently would still have happened without our marriage, the hours I spent doing her immigration forms, or me paying all the associated fees...

[PeteWitsend]

I also don't want to drag politics into it but I'd venture to say our whole political climate is a dysfunctional relationship
...

There's probably a correlation there.  You look at what it takes to become a politician in this country, or at least advance as one, and compare that to the characteristics of BPD and histrionics, and it's uncanny

For me, even beyond the lying, is the willingness to abide by a double standard.  they need to be part of society, and receive the benefits of it, but not comply with the norms or rules themselves.

Just like pwBPD need relationships, but hold their partners to a standard they don't meet.  very one-sided.

MIND BLOWN! 

[livednlearned]

It's also possible that both parties are disordered.

[15years]

Now that this is all over the news, and people discuss it at work aso, how do you act if the topic is brought up? To people who doesn't know about your personal experience of dysfunctional relationships I mean. It gets a little uncomfortable, it wouldn't be genuine to discuss it like normal celebrity gossip with someone who doesn't know about your experience, but it is also rarely suitable to be honest. It also makes you feel a bit like a freak when people laugh at how insane this is. At the same time, it's also a bit validating.

And also, discussing this with bpd partner, that's tricky.

[Notwendy]

15 Years- considering how volatile your wife is when it comes to discussing TV shows, movies, actors, I'd suggest you say as little as possible. If she says something about either or them-smile, nod, agree- change the subject. If she begins to personalize this to you, change the subject.

Keep boundaries in mind- yes, Heard has BPD, their relationship sounds like a mess. But BPD is still a spectrum and they are individuals. If people laugh about it or say something- it's about them, not you. The topic is uncomfortable, but the two of them have their own relationship. Talking about them should not spill over into talking about your relationship.

With a broad perspective.  It's not all about Amber Heard being the villain. Johnny had a part in this too. One important fact that came out in this trial is that his mother was abusive to him. Abuse and dysfunctional family patterns are seen between generations. Our families of origin have an influence on who we are attracted to and who is attracted to us. This is not to blame Johnny but in hope  that he will decide to look at his own part in this, so he can recover emotionally from his experiences.

[ForeverDad]

Personal impact... my recently adult son doesn't want to discuss how this case echos my experience.  He was on the phone with his mother yesterday and though she said she didn't follow the news much, she immediately began to blame me and claim I lied during our divorce 15 years ago.  So she knows more than she admitted about the news and so far she hasn't seen the connection.

And my son doesn't want to hear anything from either of us about our past conflicts.

This reminds me that there are two categories for sins...sins of commission and sins of omission.  Depp's sins were mostly of omission, he didn't choose well, he didn't seek effective help and he didn't get away and end it when things kept getting bad, well, not quickly.

Fortunately there are no children.

[Notwendy]

Agreed but in context of Depp having an abusive mother and a passive father who tolerated this, despite all his fame and resources, Depp may not have recognized what was going on until he was very much drawn into it. Depp became famous at the age of 20. If we consider that childhood abuse causes one to get "stuck" in their emotional growth, it's possible that Depp did too.

Considering that if this kind of thing can happen to Depp, it could happen to anyone. I also am pleased to see he's brought domestic abuse to men into the light. I hope this awareness can help others in this situation.

[PeteWitsend]

...

And my son doesn't want to hear anything from either of us about our past conflicts.

This reminds me that there are two categories for sins...sins of commission and sins of omission.  Depp's sins were mostly of omission, he didn't choose well, he didn't seek effective help and he didn't get away and end it when things kept getting bad, well, not quickly.

...

This hits home with me.

I know I made some mistakes, taking as long as I did to get out.  But worse in my mind: not fighting for 50/50 custody, and walking away with basically not much more than entitled to at statute; mostly to avoid huge legal bills - I cheaped out - and get on with my life.

my daughter on occasion has asked why she can't stay with me more often, and specifically complained about BPDxw's boyfriend and the fighting b/t him and BPDxw as a problem.  (I've confirmed there's no physical abuse, just yelling and cursing).

Presumably, I'll bear some responsibility in her eyes for leaving her in that situation.  I accept that, but it sucks.  

[PeteWitsend]

https://twitter.com/RekietaLaw/status/1519078776587657224?s=20&t=PbUxjF-b2FQU7YjA1GaN3w

I suppose that could just be a coincidence...

[stolencrumbs]

If anyone is still paying attention, I don't think JD is going to come out of this looking particularly good. I get it if there are kids involved, but otherwise, the legal system seems to be a uniquely terrible place to try to battle a pwBPD. There's zero chance he wins the actual case, but I assume he had other reasons to pursue this. I don't see him "winning" in that sense either, though. I'm sure this is slightly too pessimistic of a view, but I can't help but feel like any confidence people have in the legal system or the mental health system is almost entirely misplaced when it comes to pwBPD.

[zachira]

Stolencrumbs,
I am thinking along these lines as well. I don't see Johnny having any chance of winning this one, and certainly both he and Amber are likely coming out of this with their reputations irreparably damaged. I believe the therapist who said they both abused each other. So many who post here, have gotten to the point in which getting away from the abuser and cutting the losses makes more sense than pursuing justice which is so difficult and costly to attain, when there are no dependent children involved.

[Skip]

Like many, I've been a fan of Johnny Depp for years. I suspect this lawsuit will be a train-wreck for both of them - magnifying the dysfunction in their home to the world stage.

The Washington Post article certainly has hurt him - but thus trial has to be far more damaging.

Hard to see how he proves that her article was largely false inaccurate AND it directly cost him $50 million in movie salaries.

I suspect he will recover from all this in the end.

[ForeverDad]

They both have made allegations, yet Depp is the one with documentation, the recordings can't be discounted, not like allegations which can be described as "he said, she said" which is often viewed as hearsay.

In civil cases, the standard of proof is a “preponderance of the evidence”—more likely than not. There, a slight advantage in the evidence is enough to win.
Link

My wild guess is the jury/statement will award one litigant $1 and the other $1 or maybe $2.

Disclaimer... I watched Jump Street decades ago when both I and Depp were young but haven't watched any of the Pirates movies.

[Notwendy]

Disclaimer... I watched Jump Street decades ago when both I and Depp were young but haven't watched any of the Pirates movies.

I have watched both, and other movies he's been in, and probably like the majority of straight women on this planet, well let's say, I have noticed his good looks.

But something else about him always incited another feeling- a wariness, a nervousness. Could this be the "boundaries" we talk about? Not the obvious red flags but just a general feeling of unease about another person with no apparent reason but we sense it?

Because no matter who "wins" this case or who is the most abusive/dysfunctional, there's a whole lot of drama involved in being in a relationship with either one of them.

There's another thread about attracting/being attracted to someone with BPD. As good looking as Depp is, he's also felt a bit scary to me. Heard is attractive too. And yet, someone else might run from either one of them, but somehow, they felt a match with each other.

[stolencrumbs]

They both have made allegations, yet Depp is the one with documentation, the recordings can't be discounted, not like allegations which can be described as "he said, she said" which is often viewed as hearsay.

My wild guess is the jury/statement will award one litigant $1 and the other $1 or maybe $2.

Disclaimer... I watched Jump Street decades ago when both I and Depp were young but haven't watched any of the Pirates movies.

She has documentation, too. She has recordings, photos, texts, contemporaneous notes from her therapist(s), etc. And her own testimony isn't hearsay. I just can't imagine the jury finding for either one of them on defamation. It appears to have been a really awful relationship with awful behavior from both of them. The whole thing is just really sad, and really sad that millions of people are watching it. No one is going to look like a winner in this thing, because, as best I can tell, no one is a winner in this thing.   

[BigOof]

I don't think Depp actually cares about the money. Suing pretty women is a very hard way to make money. To make money, he'd be better off spending his time producing a new movie or going on tour.

The point of the lawsuit is to take a pound of flesh from Heard and destroy her career, forever. If Johnny was toxic after the op-ed, Heard is now nuclear. Shortchanging the ACLU while using its name to further her career and destroy a beloved character in the process? That's un-American.

https://www.change.org/p/dc-entertainment-remove-amber-heard-from-aquaman-2

[stolencrumbs]

I don't think Depp actually cares about the money. Suing pretty women is a very hard way to make money. To make money, he'd be better off spending his time producing a new movie or going on tour.

The point of the lawsuit is to take a pound of flesh from Heard and destroy her career, forever. If Johnny was toxic after the op-ed, Heard is now nuclear. Shortchanging the ACLU while using its name to further her career and destroy a beloved character in the process? That's un-American.

https://www.change.org/p/dc-entertainment-remove-amber-heard-from-aquaman-2

I'm really not in the defend-Amber-Heard business, but man, if that is what Johnny is "trying" to do, well...nobody's looking good in this thing.

[BigOof]

...nobody's looking good in this thing.

Exactly - but Depp will survive and Heard won't. If you look at the q-scores, Depp's scores are reverting back to pre-Heard days.

Depp noted Heard's "ambition" a number of times. Depp is taking the thing most important to Heard: her career.

[Cat Familiar]

I haven’t yet followed Heard’s testimony, but having watched Depp, I think he makes a very credible witness.

Years ago, when I first heard allegations, I, like much of the public, immediately assumed that Depp was the abuser and substance abuser in the relationship. Now, I think it’s likely the latter was true, but I’m doubting the former somewhat.

Having been in a physically abusive relationship, you tend to lose the parameters of what is *normality*. At one point when my ex was feeling momentarily remorseful, he told me I could hit him if that would even up the score. I was very reluctant to do so, but he encouraged me, so I did.

What I didn’t know was in doing so, that released years of the pent up rage I felt and I not only hit him once, I continued to hit him in the chest with all my might for probably 20 blows. I had taken martial arts, but had never made contact like that with a human before. I stopped when I realized I could be breaking his ribs.

He was so shocked that he didn’t respond at all. And I was so shocked that I was capable of going into a blind rage.

One of us was the original initiator of repeated violence in the relationship. It wasn’t me.

But when given a “get out of jail free card” I hit back fully.

Would I ever have initiated violence in the relationship? No

And apparently Depp never did either, judging by the accounts of his previous partners. Heard, however, has a history of domestic violence.

But something happens to your sense of right and wrong when you’ve been attacked by the person who is supposed to love you. I never fought back when physically attacked by my ex. I tried to protect myself and hoped it would go away. I ground my teeth to the point where I needed to get crowns on all my molars. I endured.

When given a moment for retribution, I snapped.

Who is the wronged party in the Depp/Heard case? As others have said, they both will have irreparably damaged reputations due to this litigation. Depp is a beloved figure; Heard is not.

A few years ago I ended up donating through Freecycle a used printer to a local woman who is an advocate for imprisoned women who fought back in relationships with domestic violence. Had circumstances turned out differently, I could have been one of those women. I understand how someone can lose control after years of being a victim of domestic violence.

[stolencrumbs]

I haven’t yet followed Heard’s testimony, but having watched Depp, I think he makes a very credible witness.

Years ago, when I first heard allegations, I, like much of the public, immediately assumed that Depp was the abuser and substance abuser in the relationship. Now, I think it’s likely the latter was true, but I’m doubting the former somewhat.

Having been in a physically abusive relationship, you tend to lose the parameters of what is *normality*. At one point when my ex was feeling momentarily remorseful, he told me I could hit him if that would even up the score. I was very reluctant to do so, but he encouraged me, so I did.

What I didn’t know was in doing so, that released years of the pent up rage I felt and I not only hit him once, I continued to hit him in the chest with all my might for probably 20 blows. I had taken martial arts, but had never made contact like that with a human before. I stopped when I realized I could be breaking his ribs.

He was so shocked that he didn’t respond at all. And I was so shocked that I was capable of going into a blind rage.

One of us was the original initiator of repeated violence in the relationship. It wasn’t me.

But when given a “get out of jail free card” I hit back fully.

Would I ever have initiated violence in the relationship? No

And apparently Depp never did either, judging by the accounts of his previous partners. Heard, however, has a history of domestic violence.

But something happens to your sense of right and wrong when you’ve been attacked by the person who is supposed to love you. I never fought back when physically attacked by my ex. I tried to protect myself and hoped it would go away. I ground my teeth to the point where I needed to get crowns on all my molars. I endured.

When given a moment for retribution, I snapped.

Who is the wronged party in the Depp/Heard case? As others have said, they both will have irreparably damaged reputations due to this litigation. Depp is a beloved figure; Heard is not.

A few years ago I ended up donating through Freecycle a used printer to a local woman who is an advocate for imprisoned women who fought back in relationships with domestic violence. Had circumstances turned out differently, I could have been one of those women. I understand how someone can lose control after years of being a victim of domestic violence.

I can definitely see that, and I am sympathetic to Depp as well. I saw a lot of my life in his testimony. If you have any interest, I'd suggest watching her testimony as well. I don't think either side disputes that he had a serious addiction problem. And I'm pretty skeptical of his ability to recount what he did or didn't do when he was drunk and/or on coke or opioids. I don't think there's much/any evidence that he was abusive while sober (I don't think AH even claims that), and I am sure he doesn't view himself that way. At the very least, he was very controlling and condescending to AH, and he definitely liked to throw things and smash things when he was drunk/on drugs. It's not really clear to me who "started" it. Again, Depp's story resonated a lot with me, but I think most of us here probably would've been rightly stricken from the jury pool for bias. I didn't expect to find AH credible, but I find myself believing a lot of what she's saying, and she has evidence to support a lot of it. And since my ex was not just BPD, but also an abusive drunk for a significant period of time, I also sympathize with how damn hard it is to deal with someone you love who is drunk or on drugs.

Also, they're both actors, so who knows what to believe in their testimony. Their job that they get paid millions of dollars for is literally to make us believe them.

[PeteWitsend]

Yeah, I'm not going to "both sides" this one. 

So Johnny Depp drinks and does drugs... doesn't justify receiving abuse.  At best, it affects his credibility as a witness, but only to the extent he was intoxicated at the time of the events he's testifying to.

I'd still take the word of a drunk over the word of a pwBPD.  Based on my own experience here.

And also based on that same experience, I understand how the near constant mental and emotional abuse can drive you to lash out or respond in kind.  I don't blame anyone on the receiving end of abuse for not keeping their composure.

Unfortunately, in court, or in the hands of a pwBPD your own words and actions get dragged out to refute the original abuse, and people, biased toward a sense of fairness and "50/50 is fair" unfamiliar with BPD, just assume the Non must have done something wrong.

and whether he wins or not, I think he' done himself, and victims of abuse a lot more than her BS grandstanding essay...

[Skip]

Just some background (and timeline)...

Depp sued Britain's "The Sun" newspaper in 2018 for libel and lost the case. "Judge Mr Justice Nicol said the Sun had proved what was in the article to be "substantially true. He found 12 of the 14 alleged incidents of domestic violence had occurred." This is the article at the center of that lawsuit: https://www.thesun.co.uk/tvandshowbiz/6159182/jk-rowling-genuinely-happy-johnny-depp-fantastic-beasts/

This is the Washington Post article at the heart of this case. Depp's suit claims he lost a huge payout for Pirates of the Caribbean 6 because of the artcile and is seeking financial compensation ($50M).

Opinion  Amber Heard: I spoke up against sexual violence — and faced our culture’s wrath. That has to change.
By Amber Heard
December 18, 2018

Amber Heard is an actress and ambassador on women’s rights at the American Civil Liberties Union.

I was exposed to abuse at a very young age. I knew certain things early on, without ever having to be told. I knew that men have the power — physically, socially and financially — and that a lot of institutions support that arrangement. I knew this long before I had the words to articulate it, and I bet you learned it young, too.

Like many women, I had been harassed and sexually assaulted by the time I was of college age. But I kept quiet — I did not expect filing complaints to bring justice. And I didn’t see myself as a victim.

Then two years ago, I became a public figure representing domestic abuse, and I felt the full force of our culture’s wrath for women who speak out.

Friends and advisers told me I would never again work as an actress — that I would be blacklisted. A movie I was attached to recast my role. I had just shot a two-year campaign as the face of a global fashion brand, and the company dropped me. Questions arose as to whether I would be able to keep my role of Mera in the movies “Justice League” and “Aquaman.”

I had the rare vantage point of seeing, in real time, how institutions protect men accused of abuse.

Imagine a powerful man as a ship, like the Titanic. That ship is a huge enterprise. When it strikes an iceberg, there are a lot of people on board desperate to patch up holes — not because they believe in or even care about the ship, but because their own fates depend on the enterprise.

In recent years, the #MeToo movement has taught us about how power like this works, not just in Hollywood but in all kinds of institutions — workplaces, places of worship or simply in particular communities. In every walk of life, women are confronting these men who are buoyed by social, economic and cultural power. And these institutions are beginning to change.

We are in a transformative political moment. The president of our country has been accused by more than a dozen women of sexual misconduct, including assault and harassment. Outrage over his statements and behavior has energized a female-led opposition. #MeToo started a conversation about just how profoundly sexual violence affects women in every area of our lives. And last month, more women were elected to Congress than ever in our history, with a mandate to take women’s issues seriously. Women’s rage and determination to end sexual violence are turning into a political force.


We have an opening now to bolster and build institutions protective of women. For starters, Congress can reauthorize and strengthen the Violence Against Women Act. First passed in 1994, the act is one of the most effective pieces of legislation enacted to fight domestic violence and sexual assault. It creates support systems for people who report abuse, and provides funding for rape crisis centers, legal assistance programs and other critical services. It improves responses by law enforcement, and it prohibits discrimination against LGBTQ survivors. Funding for the act expired in September and has only been temporarily extended.

We should continue to fight sexual assault on college campuses, while simultaneously insisting on fair processes for adjudicating complaints. Last month, Education Secretary Betsy DeVos proposed changes to Title IX rules governing the treatment of sexual harassment and assault in schools. While some changes would make the process for handling complaints more fair, others would weaken protections for sexual assault survivors. For example, the new rules would require schools to investigate only the most extreme complaints, and then only when they are made to designated officials. Women on campuses already have trouble coming forward about sexual violence — why would we allow institutions to scale back supports?

I write this as a woman who had to change my phone number weekly because I was getting death threats. For months, I rarely left my apartment, and when I did, I was pursued by camera drones and photographers on foot, on motorcycles and in cars. Tabloid outlets that posted pictures of me spun them in a negative light. I felt as though I was on trial in the court of public opinion — and my life and livelihood depended on myriad judgments far beyond my control.

I want to ensure that women who come forward to talk about violence receive more support. We are electing representatives who know how deeply we care about these issues. We can work together to demand changes to laws and rules and social norms — and to right the imbalances that have shaped our lives.

[Notwendy]

Interesting as she mentioned some abuse happened at the ages before she was involved with Depp. The later descriptions- the camera's and such in a sense imply it was him.

BPD and histrionic personality diagnoses don't necessarily negate this. Abuse is prevalent in family dysfunction and that can include family members with BPD. How she recounts it could be influenced by these disorders.

Someone who has been in a relationship with someone like Amber Heard certainly identifies with JD. Others with different experiences seem to be looking at both of them.

Rather than look at who is most to blame, I see a pattern between two people. Having observed my BPD mother's abusive behavior towards my father, I can empathize with Depp and the posters here who have experienced this.

On the other hand, my father didn't get drunk or use drugs. He was never violent in return or self defense. His contribution was co-dependency, compliance. Occasionally he'd get angry and verbally get snippy with her. But we all learned that getting angry at BPD mom just led to it all coming back as she projects it.

Amber is responsible for her abusive behavior. How JD copes with whatever is bothering him is another form of dysfunction- substance and alcohol abuse. This isn't the same as occasionally throwing back a few too many beers at a party. This is an addiction, and addictive behavior patterns in families/relationships are similar to those where one partner has BPD. I learned this in ACA groups which include dysfunctional families.  Of interest to me is that both Heard and Depp have a history of being abused as younger people. Depp's mother abused him and his father.

This isn't to blame JD. But often a disordered person "matches" their partner in some way, not necessarily the same way. One way is how a person manages difficult emotions. Heard becomes abusive, Depp gets drunk. Neither is an emotionally healthy way. These two may have been initially attracted to each other and started a relationship- until someone's behavior got out of hand, but for the relationship to have progressed to the point it did was likely because there was more to it between them.

[BigOof]

If her allegations are true, why did she marry him?

She claims she married him for relationship security to stop the accusations about infidelity. What about the choking, hitting, & pushing? You're okay to marry someone who chokes you, hits you, and pushes you into walls, but as long as they don't alleged affairs the aforementioned DV is condoned?

It makes zero sense she married him knowing and experiencing what she allegedly knew. On the stand, she is too perfect. She doesn't remember any of the violence she committed toward him.

Her testimony is basically reading from a DV textbook. She is so coached it isn't funny.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying Johnny didn't do anything wrong.

[stolencrumbs]

If her allegations are true, why did she marry him?

She claims she married him for relationship security to stop the accusations about infidelity. What about the choking, hitting, & pushing? You're okay to marry someone who chokes you, hits you, and pushes you into walls, but as long as they don't alleged affairs the aforementioned DV is condoned?

It makes zero sense she married him knowing and experiencing what she allegedly knew. On the stand, she is too perfect. She doesn't remember any of the violence she committed toward him.

Her testimony is basically reading from a DV textbook. She is so coached it isn't funny.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying Johnny didn't do anything wrong.

Couldn't that same question be asked of JD? In general, I think there are a lot of complicated reasons that people stay with or make more of a commitment to people who are abusing them.

She did talk about and remember hitting him at least a couple of times. She described in detail hitting him in the face. And she has talked about screaming at him and calling him all kinds of names, and about throwing and breaking stuff. And again, couldn't we say the same thing about JD's testimony. He doesn't seem to remember any of the stuff he did. I guess in his case it might be legitimate because he was blackout drunk (or on some other combination of drugs) during a lot of the incidents.

Obviously, she's coached and is telling her story in a particular way to minimize her culpability. So did JD. That's the way it's going to go in a trial. I just know that, personally, after watching the trial thus far, I don't want to claim any affinity with or have my story compared to JD's. "Oh, so you were like JD?" "Um, h*ll no I wasn't." Just my opinion, obviously. Mainly I just find the whole specatcle really sad.   

[Cat Familiar]

An interesting look at Amber Heard’s testimony from a body language expert who has trained members of the FBI and CIA. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96ZxD4UWYgk

[zachira]

Cat Familiar,
This video is a must see. I wish this body language expert would have done a similar video on Johnny Depp's testimony. I have spent nearly my whole life being scapegoated by family members and their flying monkeys. What has always been so hurtful has been the people who bought the smear campaigns without even knowing me. I feel the pain of the men on here who were totally smeared by their ex wives. I am a feminist yet I was appalled by how so many television personalities were saying that they believed all the women when the Me Too movement began. Since when do we give a person a blank check and believe the bad things they say about another person without using other means: like letting time tell the story, paying attention to body language, examining what we have to gain by enabling the smear campaigns, etc.,?  Many of us are here on this site posting, because we allowed ourselves to be taken in by people who weren't the images of perfection they sold us which is the opposite of the sinister people they really are.

[stolencrumbs]

Does that lady read tea leaves, too? I agree, I wish she had done the same analysis on JD. Kind of telling to me that she didn't. The person who has made her name as a popularizer of body language analysis has mainly weighed in on the body language of the less famous person who doesn't have a giant following of justice for Amber people behind her.

Really not trying to be combative. I just think JD is a terrible poster boy for abused men. There is enough actual evidence, texts, photos, etc. to conclude that guy was pretty awful to her, even if the physical abuse allegations are false. I don't think all of them are, but he's pretty terrible even if they are. Someone on the detaching board suggested he was NPD, and I think that's pretty plausible.

[BigOof]

...he was NPD

I can totally see this. Depp has suffered a narcissistic injury and he's now going to be king of the ashes.

[Cat Familiar]

Here’s another video where she briefly analyzes Johnny Depp’s nonverbal behavior, as well as Heard’s.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKHRAvQcpTw

[Cat Familiar]

I thought Depp was congruent too, in the testimony I heard. I haven’t followed the proceedings closely, but now I’ve listened to Heard as well.

I picked up on the language and the unusual facial expressions accompanying her words. It reminded me of a murder trial I followed many years ago.

It was a preliminary hearing that lasted several days. I attended because the defendant was a former professor of mine and knowing how volatile he was, I was curious about his defense.

In a nutshell he and a guy who was a drug dealer were both present when a woman was murdered. There was much cocaine involved. The drug dealer had gone to the cops and told them where to find the gun, which had been dumped off a pier, and had gotten immunity.

The investigation was botched at the outset as it was a he said/he said case, with both men accusing the other. One had status in the community. The other had a long rap sheet.

But watching the professor testify, there was a moment I knew, without a doubt, that he was the murderer.

When asked to reconstruct the scene when the gun went off, he said something about where he was standing, and it began like, “I would have been…”

Not ”I was”.

That, in addition to the fact that he hid the long sleeve T-shirt he had been wearing, which was found to have “blowback” (blood from the gunshot victim) on the sleeve.

The trial ultimately proceeded. I didn’t attend it, as I’d found out what I was curious about. The jury didn’t convict.

Some years later, I ended up sitting outside at a concert next to the defense attorney. I told him the moment I knew his client was guilty and watched his face (after he had been smoking weed)     I’m sure my suspicions were correct.

[stolencrumbs]

I'm just very, very skeptical of anything the TV star "body language expert" had to say. She is clearly not immune to making money, and currently the money to be made is in "justice for Johnny." Honestly, I find him pretty contemptible at this point. Yes, he was in a toxic relationship with a difficult person. He also acted like an enitled toddler. There is evidence to substantiate his obsession with what she wore and who he thought she was sleeping with. All. The .Time. Take out any physical abuse. If AH was on this board just describing JD's behavior, we would all be giving her advice for dealing with a controlling, drunk, drug-addicted, narcissistic manchild who has the emotional regulation skills of a two-year-old. And to bring this to trial...idk. A UK court has already found her allegations "substantially true." He has no chance of winning the case. She made three statements that even suggest he's an abuser, and to me, it's beyond a reasonable doubt that he was. For me, I hope to never in my life encounter a JD or an AH. I wish neither of them on anyone.

[BigOof]

I hope to never in my life encounter a JD or an AH. I wish neither of them on anyone.

Well said.

[PeteWitsend]

I presume Johnny Depp's alcohol and drug use stems more from the fact that people in general - and wealthy people in particular who have the means - like to drink and drugs are fun to do (why else would anyone do them?) and not from coping mechanisms or represent an addiction problem.

I knew plenty of people that did drugs or drank to excess b/c that was the environment they were in (e.g. college, local bar scene, etc.), but when they graduated/grew out of that time in their life, weren't still using/drinking regularly.

I'm curious, because I don't know if there's been actual testimony supporting the claim that Johnny Depp has a drinking or drug problem, or uses to cope with some past trauma.  Seems like he just uses drugs and parties because it's fun to do that, and all his friends in Hollywood do it.  maybe he's getting to old for it, but it's not a cause of the problems here.

Yes?  

[stolencrumbs]

I presume Johnny Depp's alcohol and drug use stems more from the fact that people in general - and wealthy people in particular who have the means - like to drink and drugs are fun to do (why else would anyone do them?) and not from coping mechanisms or represent an addiction problem.

I knew plenty of people that did drugs or drank to excess b/c that was the environment they were in (e.g. college, local bar scene, etc.), but when they graduated/grew out of that time in their life, weren't still using/drinking regularly.

I'm curious, because I don't know if there's been actual testimony supporting the claim that Johnny Depp has a drinking or drug problem, or uses to cope with some past trauma.  Seems like he just uses drugs and parties because it's fun to do that, and all his friends in Hollywood do it.  maybe he's getting to old for it, but it's not a cause of the problems here.

Yes?  

I don't think so. He admits to having a problem with drinking and with opioids. He called his addiction "the monster." He's sought treatment a number of times. And plenty of testimony from both of them suggests it wasn't "partying." He'd sit at home and get blackout drunk and do drugs. On the night when AH allegedly threw a bottle at him that cut off his finger (she denies that account), according to both of their testimonies, they were in a fight and he went into the bar area and started drinking glasses of straight vodka. That's not really partying or having a good time. And I'm pretty sure this was after he was in treatment for his opioid addiction. I have no idea whether this was all a way of coping with past trauma, but it definitely seems like a genuine problem and not that he just likes to party or do some drugs and drink. Whether that's the primary cause of problems or not, that level of drinking/drug use would definitely be *a* cause of problems.   

[Notwendy]

Even teens and college students can have addiction issues.

I think the difference between persistent problems and the situational "college partier" is the persistence and extent.

The college kids who experimented and partied then grew up, had jobs, maybe families and didn't do that.

JD persisted long after that age. In addition, it disrupted his life and relationships, yet it continued.

I don't think access to money was a factor in partying. College kids don't generally have a lot of money. Addiction can also be an issue at any socioeconomic level.

I do think being a star is a unique situation. They don't have ordinary lives. They have vast amounts of money. There's an over focus on appearance- and they are followed by photographers everywhere they go. It's actually a lot of pressure. They also tend to have unstable relationships. It may be a bit chicken and egg- one has to be extraordinarily talented and have somewhat of an ego to achieve this.

[PeteWitsend]

Okay, so he did admit in testimony or otherwise stated he felt he had a problem.

I didn't know if those were his own words, or other people or Amber Heard herself claiming it.

I was skeptical, b/c in my own experience, if we were out on a trip or a date (or anywhere really) BPDxw could go from "calm --> to angry & screaming" in a few seconds, whether we were drinking or not.  But if we were drinking, she would be quick to claim I was drunk and that's why I was angry; it was like a blanket absolution for her, but in reality, drinking had nothing to do with it.

But BPDxw would often ply that for sympathy if she was trying to triangulate & drag someone else into it on her side.  Her hope seemed to be people would assume she was just being a woman, and I was the one creating problems by drinking.  As in "Well, all couples argue a bit, so she's probably not doing anything a woman wouldn't do, BUT he's had a few drinks, and so there's the issue here."

All the focus moves from the BPDer's behavior to the drinker, which they spin into "I only acted that way because you did XYZ, and bla bla bla.."

[Notwendy]

Being accountable is a difficulty.

Even if there's a touch of reality to the claim ( such as you were drinking) the result is- it's got to be you, even if it isn't.

JD has had his wild moments. He has his own issues. I think part of AH's testimony is based on something real but it's about how she recalls it.

[stolencrumbs]

Okay, so he did admit in testimony or otherwise stated he felt he had a problem.

I didn't know if those were his own words, or other people or Amber Heard herself claiming it.

Yes. He has admitted he had a problem. Mainly he admits to abusing oxycodone, but also admits to drinking while using oxycodone. He hired a nurse to help him detox. There are many, many messages about him promising to stop. AH has pictures and videos of him talking incoherently, passed out in a chair, throwing up, etc. At some point in the trial, he said he drank and used drugs in order to "feel normal," and that he didn't do it for the high.

[ForeverDad]

Previously I wrote about sins of commission versus sins of omission, perhaps a better comparison used with personality disorders is:

Acting-out ... versus ... Acting-in

Acting-out is typically linked with narcissistic, borderline, antisocial, histrionic and maybe paranoid.  The harm is directed mostly outward onto others.  Heard has been diagnosed with both BPD & HPD.

Acting-in is typically linked with the other PDs.  The harm is directed mostly inward onto oneself.  While I've seen a comment that Depp could be narcissistic, most descriptions are that he has harmed himself such as with alcohol or drugs.

[Roisin]

It’s quite obvious from reading the many post regarding the Depp vs Herd case that not many responding have ever been involved in a court action of this nature. None of this is about truth & justice, this is all about money, egos & dysfunction of all parties involved. This is a cautionary tale to all involved with a narcissistic abuser. If you called them out they will come at you with everything they have. More money the less justice. Pretty sure we have seen this before with OJ & his dream team. It’s so easy to be a Monday morning quarterback. I’ve been here & it amazes me that people who have so many difficulties in there own lives with family member with mental health issues would give this subject air time. If only that time, energy & money could be put to use in helping people who are suffering with mental health issues & their family members.

[livednlearned]

If only that time, energy & money could be put to use in helping people who are suffering with mental health issues & their family members.

Hi Roisin. Welcome to the Conflicted + Divorcing/Custody/Coparenting board. You have a heavy burden caring for a young adult with BPD and it sounds like you've experienced having a mother with BPD as well, plus daughters who have suffered the worst kind of abuse. I can see why your heart would ache, wanting people to focus on helping people who are suffering from mental illness.

This board has been a safe and healing place for people like me who have suffered from protracted legal abuse, often due to high-conflict people (HCPs) who typically have a personality disorder of some type. Like you said, it can feel like people coming at you with everything they have.

Over the years these televised high-profile cases blow open in the news and it can be oddly validating for those of us who experienced legal abuse ourselves, if only to see how the world makes sense of a legal system ill-equipped to deal with mental illness. It can feel so senseless and tragic to go through these legal experiences with few people understanding what it's like.

People here have been falsely accused of domestic violence, child abuse, kidnapping, substance abuse, sexual assault, neglect. You won't have to convince many here that the family law system is not about truth and justice.  

These experiences complicate the ways in which we navigate our own compassion for loved ones (or former loved ones, often the other parent of our children) who struggle with mental illness.

It takes a lot of emotional strength to not be injured by a BPD relationship, and sometimes the legal system becomes an extension of that abuse, as it has for many of us here.

[2020]

I think we need to be careful with this notion of ‘body language’. It is not good science.

[Notwendy]

Roisin, you are correct, I haven't been in a court case like this. With JD being a high profile celebrity, it's gaining a lot of publicity. People commenting here have not necessarily been watching all of it, yet, have seen it in the media regardless. And some may be watching it out of interest.

I agree, it would be better to turn attention and resources to helping people with mental health issues. One possible positive to this case is that it has raised awareness of domestic abuse to men by women and this may possibly help men come forward with their situation more. I know in our area, the only DV shelter is for women and children, and while they are certainly the most vulnerable in general, this doesn't exclude that men are also experiencing DV with less resources allocated to them.

Your situation sounds very difficult and I think all posters here have experienced the challenge of a partner or family member with BPD in one way or another. For some, it's cathartic, or a diversion to watch/discuss the AH/JD case. For others, it's just too hard to consider watching. For me personally, I have not watched it on TV, but I have read accounts of it and seen a few video clips but would find it too uncomfortable to watch more of it. However, for some, it may bring a sense of validation to do so. Ultimately, I hope some good comes out of this in the way of more awareness and understanding for anyone who is in a relationship like this.

[BigOof]

What a trainwreck?

IMHO, DV victims are the ones most hurt by this.

[stolencrumbs]

Well, color me surprised. I have no idea how the jury got to that verdict.

[Cat Familiar]

Depp seemed credible. Heard did not. I admit I only listened to a very limited amount of testimony. She probably won’t recoup any money after she pays off attorney’s fees.

[maxsterling]

One possible positive to this case is that it has raised awareness of domestic abuse to men by women and this may possibly help men come forward with their situation more. I know in our area, the only DV shelter is for women and children, and while they are certainly the most vulnerable in general, this doesn't exclude that men are also experiencing DV with less resources allocated to them.

Hopefully.  Men victims face other challenges, though, and probably don't need shelters as often.  Typically, men have jobs and some money.  Women often are not in that position.  Men need more help in legal support from a system that typically does not see them as abuse targets.  There is also a lack of therapy support and places they can turn to.  I am willing to bet that in any community you can find multiple support groups for abused women, but its very rare to find support groups for abused men.  Even on the internet - so far this is one of the few places I feel safe sharing.

[PeteWitsend]

I am curious to read some of the source documents here.  All I've found were write ups on the level of detail of this CNN article https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/01/entertainment/johnny-depp-amber-heard-verdict/index.html:

The jury awarded Depp $10 million in compensatory damages and $5 million dollars in punitive damages. The jury awarded Heard $2 million in compensatory damages and no money for punitive damages.

The $2MM for her was compensation for a comment his attorney made, that they jury found defamatory.  I still haven't found what that comment was. 

The fact that he was awarded punitive damages and she wasn't is more significant than the amounts, in my opinion, because that means the jury found she acted with malice in making the defamatory statements, and he (via his attorney) did not. 

I've seen some statements that this will have a chilling effect on victims of domestic abuse and their ability to speak out... but the jury essentially found she was lying, and also he likely spent millions in legal fees to bring this complicated suit, which the avg. man does not have, so I doubt this sets much of a precedent.  Truth is still an absolute defense to defamation/libel.   

It exonerates him to a degree... that's about it.  It shines a spotlight briefly on BPD/HPD behavior.  I think that's a good thing, but I doubt it changes much. 

[Skip]

Waldman [former Depp attorney for British trail] began representing Depp after he and Heard divorced. He admitted to making several statements published in the Daily Mail in July 2020, including; “Amber Heard and her friends in the media used fake sexual violence allegations as both the sword and the shield”; “sexual violence hoax ‘facts'”; and “Quite simply this was an ambush a hoax.”

[Notwendy]

More than the verdict, I think the trial was quite damaging to Amber Heard. Producers make shows that will attract viewers=profit. The internet- tik tok, Twitter- response was widely in favor of Depp and brutal to Heard. Clips of outside the courthouse showed screaming Depp fans- a generation that grew up with a crush on Captain Sparrow. Surely the producers noticed this. I don't think anyone is lining up to see Heard in a show, but Depp will draw fans.

For Depp though, I don't think this was about money, or movies, but him standing up to abuse. I don't think his intent was to harm Heard specifically. He didn't have a choice as a child when he was abused by his mother ( who he stated was the "meanest person he knows"). Perhaps I am reading more into it, but I think for Johnny Depp, this trial was for validation. Yes, this happened, and he will no longer allow another narrative. His last line of his statement after the verdict said it best: Veritas numquam perit. Truth never perishes.

[stolencrumbs]

More than the verdict, I think the trial was quite damaging to Amber Heard. Producers make shows that will attract viewers=profit. The internet- tik tok, Twitter- response was widely in favor of Depp and brutal to Heard. Clips of outside the courthouse showed screaming Depp fans- a generation that grew up with a crush on Captain Sparrow. Surely the producers noticed this. I don't think anyone is lining up to see Heard in a show, but Depp will draw fans.

For Depp though, I don't think this was about money, or movies, but him standing up to abuse. I don't think his intent was to harm Heard specifically. He didn't have a choice as a child when he was abused by his mother ( who he stated was the "meanest person he knows"). Perhaps I am reading more into it, but I think for Johnny Depp, this trial was for validation. Yes, this happened, and he will no longer allow another narrative. His last line of his statement after the verdict said it best: Veritas numquam perit. Truth never perishes.

I guess I clearly seem to be the outlier here. I found Depp neither particularly credible nor particularly likable during the trial. And I was a fan of his. He seemed maybe 50% less full of s*** than Amber Heard to me, but both seemed well steeped in it. I've never seen any movie AH was in, and I definitely wouldn't seek one out now. But I am also less inclined to watch or care about anything JD does in the future. My biggest takeaway was that JD clearly had better lawyers who hired better experts. They were more articulate, more polished, and more attractive, and that stuff matters in a jury trial.

[Notwendy]

I don't mean to say JD didn't participate in the dysfunction. He has his own issues as well.

But from a marketing standpoint:

The public, and his many fans, took his side. Many fans are also females who had a crush on Captain Jack Sparrow, and of course it makes sense that a straight male would see this differently. Many celebrities have a lot of fans and also their personal lives might be a mess, but fans mean more people coming to movies. Producers see that in terms of $$$

Admittedly, a celebrity crush is not the same as a real relationship. As a straight female who has seen a lot of his movies, I see why he's a celebrity crush  . Would I consider a real relationship with him? Absolutely not, but that's not a realistic thing to consider. Would I spend a few dollars to see his movies? Yes and that is what producers consider.
 

Depp did have superb lawyers, but even though Depp had his drunken drugged crazy times, that isn't proof of abuse and also while it may not be a good thing- it's common behavior of celebrities. Pooping on the bed is so far out of the norm. I think that was probably the most damaging thing to Heard.

Depp also brought in former partners who stated he didn't abuse them. That isn't the usual pattern for abusive people.

[zachira]

I think the trial showed us what a relationship between a person with BPD (Heard diagnosed) and NPD (Depp) often looks like. Depp cannot blame Heard for ruining his movie career as he had pretty much already lost a lot of his standing and credibility due to his drugging, drinking, being disrespectful to crew as they never knew when he would show up to film, sometimes being many hours late. Heard seemed to be using false accusations of domestic violence to get Depp's attention, to avoid being abandonned. A therapist testified that they mutually abused each other. There was evidence (taped) that showed Heard as an agressive physical abuser, and Depp admitted to being regularly drunk and on all kinds of drugs. Therapists are often reluctant to say there is mutual abuse because usually one partner is the agressor in the abuse, and it was the opinion of many that Heard was the agressor and did not act like someone who was a victim of domestic violence.

[PeteWitsend]

Heard accused Johnny Depp of physically abusing her during their relationship in a thinly-veiled editorial she wrote for the WaPo.  

And she was "partnering" with the ACLU to become the public face of domestic violence victims.

Depp (basically) sued her for defamation, claiming it wasn't true and her statements cost him roles in movies.  A jury found him credible, and her not credible, and returned a verdict largely for him. 

End of story, except for our interest due to her being diagnosed or accused of being BPD according to an expert witness hired by JD who examined her.  It's interesting also that her plan to become the public face of sexual/domestic abuse victims dovetails nicely with pwBPD need to be victims in their relationships.  

[zachira]

What seems to be most relevant to members here, is that people with BPD and/or NPD often make false accusations which the partners are unprepared to deal with and often leave the partner at an unfair disadvantage in divorce and custody proceedings. I see Amber Heard as a person who did everything to make herself the victim and who lied repeatedly about physical abuse that never happened. I am hoping that the best outcome of this trial is it serves to educate the courts and others about what false accusations look like and how to deal with them.

[ForeverDad]

Well, paint me surprised.  Previously I imagined she would get $1 and he would get $2.  Okay, she gets $2M and he gets $10M.  I was just a little bit off.   In a recent interview she said she will contest/appeal it and then said she will accept it.

She also claimed her judgement will make it harder for female victims.  Well, that same could be said in reverse, that men have been claiming for decades that women are too often assumed to be victims when sometimes men are the actual victims.  This might be a bit of equalizing.

Will Depp get money or not from her?  Regardless, he did make a point, now he should put his side of the judgment in escrow so it is ready to be paid when she pays her judgment.

I learned many years ago that you don't jump to comply with an order until the other person also complies.  That is the Leverage of escrow, you are ready to comply, just waiting on the other party to also comply.

[BigOof]

Her (housing) insurance company is paying the legal fees (but not damages) - so she doesn't care about the fees for an appeal.

But all I see is her literally playing out histrionic personality disorder for all of us to watch.